Scrap UHVs?

[fearuin]

I was about to make a thread to discuss this, but it seems I arrived late, so I'll explain my opinion shortly.

1.- UHV should not be removed. It adds a lot of flavour to game! You haven't to go for them, after all. Have you ever tried to achieve a space race with japanese, or with aztecs? If not, what are you waiting for? C'mon, it's fun! Possibilities are there. If you don't want to explore it, then play the standard game.
EDIT: I don't how many time takes to implement any change in UHV, but I think that core programming will take longer, as CyberChrist says a few posts beneath.
2. A unique "Glorious Victory" would be great. I was about to propose it, but Phallus seem to have it done first. I agree, it's a fine addition.
3.-What has to revised it's the standard victory conditions. There are two victories that currently are pretty useless, as long thay are impossible. I'm talking about Conquest and Domination. Conquest is just impossible, I think. I haven't tried, but I'll do, I promise!! And Domination is far more than impossible, because you don't simply have to raze any city that happens to stand in the way, you have to maintain them. So I propose this modifications to these victories:
a) Conquest: instead of conquering all the world, it would require you to conquer a given number of civs. 4 or 5 can be a good challenge, for example. It can be increased with difficulty levels, to 6 in Monarch and to 7 in Emperor.
b) Domination: here there are two possibilities. One is to reduce the percentage needed of population and empire extension, and one other is to replace it with another criteria, such as a given number of cities, for example 20 on Viceroy, 25 in Monarch and 30 in Emperor.
c) Time: this is just a possibility: the "Glorius Victory" or whatever is called can replace time victory, becuse too often games end "just in the middle". Rarely everybody has future tech, even happens that nobody reaches modern era. Another possibility is to score the time victory only when ALL civs have future tech.

 

[Aeon221]

I'm not sure everyone is reading my OP, so I'll repeat myself.

I'm asking that they be scrapped because I believe that too much time (both of testers and developers) is being spent on a peripheral issue.

You might feel that they add flavor, texture, and special sauce to the mod, but I fail to see how this is relevant to their inclusion at this state of the mod.

I have no problem with them being reincorporated at a later date, when the important part of the mod is finished, and everything is balanced.

But fuggering around with them now is a huge waste of time.

 

[Crayton]

Phallus, we already influence the AI's behavior through "War maps" and "Settler maps" among other things (and when I say we, I mean Rhye). The AI is conscious of these. I agree it would be most difficult to make all of the current, complex UHVs intelligible to the AI, so I say disable it until we come up with simpler goals. We can make the new UHVs as modified war/settler mini-maps (abstractly speaking).

Aeon, good post. I think UNVs are a little more important than say "ethnic flavored units" or some other exotic addition to the game but they do take up a lot of time and space here in the discussion forums (like say, his thread).

Most everybody likes the concept of a historical victory but maybe our current implementation has outworn its usefulness. Maybe. Not all of the mod's features NEED to survive to the final release and I would not mind seeing a rehaul (at some future point, or now) of the whole UHV concept. If it is determined by the modder(s) that this implementation is outdated then please disable it so we can test other features.

 

[CyberChrist]

@Aeon221:
1) The UHVs are already in the mod they are not a new feature - so there is no extra time required to figure out their inclusion

2) Whatever suggested/required modifications there is/may come to the UHVs will takes minutes rather than hours to implement (unlike the core issues)

3) I have noticed no changes to core gameplay that was made to accomodate the UHVs. Even the changes to Babylon area was made (as far as I am aware) solely on the basis that people in general was complaining about Babylon start area being too weak(it is now too strong imho).


Frankly, then I don't understand why you(and others) are adding more 'wasted time' by starting an anti-UHV debate, instead of heating up the debate(s) about those core issues you claim are in such dire need of changing/fixing (actually then I can think of a few issues more worthy myself).

 

[Surtur]

I just agree with Aeon221 that the current discussion concentrates too much on a feature which should have been implemented when everything else is balanced and finished.
I would prefer a completely new design of UHVs later when more important issues are solved.

 

[thenooblet22]

I'm not sure everyone is reading my OP, so I'll repeat myself.

I'm asking that they be scrapped because I believe that too much time (both of testers and developers) is being spent on a peripheral issue.

You might feel that they add flavor, texture, and special sauce to the mod, but I fail to see how this is relevant to their inclusion at this state of the mod.

I have no problem with them being reincorporated at a later date, when the important part of the mod is finished, and everything is balanced.

But fuggering around with them now is a huge waste of time.

I don't see anything this mod needs but more balancing, so how would balancing the UHV throw the project off course? I just don't see this as being such a distraction that we would say "Oh dang. This is too much. Let's just scrap all the progress we have made so far so we can discuss how many Horse Archers the Turks need."

special sauce to the mod

And sauce is delicious.

 

[Phallus]

Fair points, Crayton. Even now the "war map" could be modified to represent a few UHV objectives (German goals for example), so this is always a route to consider. However, if the AI is to understand historical victories, we can't postpone their balancing to a later date.

c) Time: this is just a possibility: the "Glorius Victory" or whatever is called can replace time victory

I was thinking about this and I'd like to ask the following:

If Rhye was up to implementing some sort of 'glorious achievements' system, how popular would it be? I'm not suggesting for a moment that Rhye would scrap all his work on the UHVs to try this option instead, but I'd love to know how many people would support it if he did. I'd even draft suggestions for how the whole thing could work providing people took an interest.

 

[Aeon221]

"Oh dang. This is too much. Let's just scrap all the progress we have made so far so we can discuss how many Horse Archers the Turks need."

Actually, yes, the Turks do need some more discussion time. And Babylon, and several other civs, and, oh my, the stability system too!

 

[onedreamer]

UHVs could become historical goals that give some bonuses if achieved.
This is what I think and what SadoMacho meant.

 

[onedreamer]

@Aeon221:
3) I have noticed no changes to core gameplay that was made to accomodate the UHVs.

Well, since you like sarcasm, let's say I did notice a change to core gameplay introduced by UHVs, which is: UHV. Being it a new victory condition, it is definitely a core element of gameplay. Add to this that UHVs are utterly unbalanced right now, and the total is that they need much work.

Frankly, then I don't understand why you(and others) are adding more 'wasted time' by starting an anti-UHV debate, instead of heating up the debate(s) about those core issues you claim are in such dire need of changing/fixing (actually then I can think of a few issues more worthy myself).

Maybe one is the consequence to the other ?

 

[CyberChrist]

The addition of a new victory condition might change how some people choose to play the game, but it doesn't change the tools available to the player/civs in the least.

A change to the CORE gamplay would result in some civs suddenly becoming a whole lot stronger or weaker as a result of the inclusion (.ie new/changed units, buildings, abilities, avilable resources, opponents etc.). The UHVs simply doesn't have even the slightest effect in this regard.

EDIT: Ok, I admit the Arch and 'free' GA does count for something, but so does the sacrifices required to arrive at the point where that is rewarded to you (and the fact that Arch counts as a Minor wonder in your capital - blocking for many normal Minor wonder strategies)

 

[Crayton]

The War Map does seem like a crude way to force the AI into wars. A more comprehensive system of the War Maps (multiple regions instead of every single tile) could be incorporated into future UHVs. Come to think of it, even the City Names Map could be incorporated. All in all it would remove the AI's focus from individual tiles to small and/or large regions, as many of the Unique Historical Goals prescribe.

I will at this point concede that if we are to have the AI understand the future UHVs then it will be cause for rebalancing and should not be put off. Mark that as another reason to do so; for if we are can disable the current UHVs to no unbalanced effects then it is not as incorporated as it should be.

 

[Blasphemous]

I actually really really love the AIWars script and the War Maps that go with it. In my current game it made for some very realistic back-stabbing: I'm Germany, and I was attacked out of the blue first by my friend Greece (my buddy to the South-East, right near and around some of my important areas) and then by France during the next war I had, with Mongolia (which I suspect had something to do with the AIWars script as well.) The situation I got in was so realistic and so fascinating and so outright dangerous that I just couldn't resist throwing most of my precious free time into the game for the three or for days it took to play through the series of wars I had.

 

[fearuin]

If Rhye was up to implementing some sort of 'glorious achievements' system, how popular would it be? I'm not suggesting for a moment that Rhye would scrap all his work on the UHVs to try this option instead, but I'd love to know how many people would support it if he did. I'd even draft suggestions for how the whole thing could work providing people took an interest.

If it replaces the time victory, count me on! Because if not, the such called "Glorius Victory" would become:
A) Far less "Glorious" to allow all civs to achieve it before times runs up (and America has very very little time, if you count that you need at least 50 turns to be completely stablished, or that it takes me -maybe I'm just a little numb -)
B)Impossible to some civs. so it becomes a nonsense to implement it.

 

[Blasphemous]

I don't know about actually replacing histograph victory, but it would be cool if getting all three goals is a golden snitch for that victory condition - worth a hell of a lot of points, but not necessarily enough to guarantee victory. 500 or even 1000 points would be fair for any civ that completes all three goals.
But I want to take a few steps back first. This totally goes against the whole reason we put UHVs in in the first place. The point is to let civs beat the game without needing to wait until the modern age. If we can't do that well, we should scrap the whole thing rather than turn it into something we don't need - there are already a whole lot of ways to win in the late game and histograph victories are so boring they're hardly victory.

 

[Crayton]

Yes, I thuroughly enjoy both the AIWars script an the War Maps. I just think that were they regionalized they could then be applied to UHVs.

No need to subtract these features, just make them more useful and integrated.

 

[Head Serf]

We should definately keep UHVs around, they're getting better all the time.

 

[Spearthrower]

I just finally came back to this game and this mod after a bit of a break (playing a vast number of other games) and I just want to say that it is these UHV's that really inspire my interest. They are like a ton of mini-scenarios in a single game creating a wealth of replayability.... and they're optional anyway, for those who don't like them.

It would be sad to see them dropped - even for a period of time - and would, in my opinion, remove much of the unique flavour of this excellent mod. If they were dropped temporarily, they may never make it back in again.... the game would also be designed upwards not supporting them. Personally, I think they are integral and should be kept and continually balanced. There's really no reason to reckon them as taking time away from the core aspects of the game if you actually consider them to be a core aspect of the game!

 

[a1Basco]

Yeah, but UHVs would have to be tweaked more than anything else, because like I said... Every little change throws off someone's balance, and if you throw off someone's balance, it has an effect on other civs.

I'm sure they could be worked on later with minimal problems. If anything, it'd be easier than having the mess with them constantly now.

It would be better to model the UHVs over something that a civ CAN do with it's latest balance.

 

[REDY]

I like the UHV but not for a victory. I would like to see, when you complete a UHV, you'll get something for it. If you complete 2 of them, you get a Trimpharc, that's nice, but I like to see more. If you complete 1, you get a great person, and if you complete all 3, you get something too. I have no idea what this could be.

50 modern tanks per city?