SDI...Why is this such a sensitive issue?

Originally posted by Dogberry
Am I mistaken .. FL ? Is this what you envision as the best course for the world ?
It'll do until the much better something on its way gets here.
Originally posted by Dogberry
As for your demonstrable ignorance of current events, politics.. etc. ; not too long ago I questioned you about a prominent Democratic Politician ( Bob Kerrey ) ...who happened to be very much in the news early this summer. Your answer revealed to me that your intake of information is limited & narrow to the extreme.
Not knowing one liberal doesn't make me ignorant. It just means my interests don't lie along the same axis as yours.
Originally posted by Dogberry
No.. I don't hate you FL. This might surprise you .. but I kinda like you. In the course of my life .. I have learned to rub shoulders with a wide variety of people & have found that they all have something to offer. I have to admit ..and I hope this doesn't get me banned for "trolling" ...I love pulling your tail occasionally just to hear you squawk.
I am a man of simplicity. I wear my heart on my sleeve. I'm not big on duplicitousness, and it is therefore regrettably easy to push my buttons. The fact that you derive pleasure from this truth about me speaks volumes about you.
Originally posted by Dogberry
To the SDI argument...two things are put forward for its rationale. There is the "rogue nation" argument, & then there is the less public nuclear hegemony argument. Which one would you like to see me demolish first ? Warning.. the last gets into the MAD based nuclear numbers game & is guarenteed to put everyone to sleep.
Do both at once, I can keep up. And be aware that the numbers game doesn't impress me in the slightest. Honestly, I could care less about SDI, because I have no fear of nuclear weapons. Either they will be used, and I will become air pollution, or they will not, and I will be fine.
Originally posted by Dogberry
P.S. For such a "moral" guy...you sure do cuss a lot...lol.
:rolleyes: I never said I was good, just that I have a strong sense of morality. Ever heard of guilt? People do things that they know are wrong all the time. The difference between moral people and amoral sickos is guilt, and the fact that it and conscience play a role in reducing participation in evil actions by moral people. Obviously, people will succumb to temptation often enough, but those with stronger morals have a harder time rationalizing and thereby performing those actions. When society adds stigmata to internal feelings of guilt, participation is reduced even more. Taking away societal stigmata makes it easier to rationalize away morality and the guilt it uses as a rod of correction. Why relativists argue this point is beond me, it seems blatantly obvious.
 
My problem with your argument, FearlessLeader, is that everyone has THEIR OWN sense of morality. For some people, taking a drag off a joint would be a sin, while for others it is a common activity. Neither person should have his or her right to do or not do something infringed upon by the government.

Of course, the government must outlaw some types of behavior. The gov should only outlaw types of behavior that are harmful to others. You should not be allowed to murder/rape/attack/harass another person. But by smoking/drinking your are not harming anyone. By creating pornogrpahic material for your own purposes you are not harming anyone. By exercising your right to free speech, you are not harming anyone and by protesting you are not harming anyone.
 
DogBerry, stop baiting FL2.

FL2, stop cussing at DogBerry.

This is an official announcement. ;)

AoA
 
1) You had to totally divorce yourself from the papers & TV or perhaps not live in the USA ... to be unaware of the controversy surrounding Bob Kerrey's time in Vietnam. The fact that you dismiss him as just another "liberal" shows where you are at.....as I said demonstrably ignorant on politics, current events & world affairs.

2) Ignorant people that have opinions on things that they know nothing of..& are just repeating some "theology" heard from a familiar agreeable source ...deserve to get their tailfeathers plucked. I am willing to do the occasional plucking, IF it is something I know a thing or two about.

3) If you know next to nothing about SDI...why are you on this thread ? Certainly not to learn anything. Is there some greater "moral" purpose in all of this ?

4) If you can't develop a sense of humor ... you are doomed. I say this in all seriousness.

5) On the rationale for SDI, you said in effect .."don't bore me with the facts", so I won't.

Hope you get better some day.. cause guy, this is all there is for you.

Dog
 
Hey Dogberry, what the f*ck did I just post?

You think I post to read my own words?

That was a moderator warning.

I'll give you the benifit of the doubt that you crossed posted it.

That had BETTER be the case.
 
Whoops !!.. simultaneous posts there...sorry AoA. Let's DO bring this thread back to SDI... & leave all the argruments about morality, etc. for a different thread.

Dog
 
Originally posted by Dogberry
3) If you know next to nothing about SDI...why are you on this thread ? Certainly not to learn anything. Is there some greater "moral" purpose in all of this ?

5) On the rationale for SDI, you said in effect .."don't bore me with the facts", so I won't.

3) I know a great deal about SDI. Would you care to concentrate on interceptor missiles for the final stage and orbital phases, free-electron lasers guided by mirrors that use super-cooled wiggler magnets to keep them focussed, or 'smart rocks'. Or would you be more interested in discussing the merits and deficits of an integrated defense?

5) I said nothing of the sort. I gave you a free license to talk as high above where you thought my head could reach on this issue as you liked. If you want me to, I can design your country's SDI system, based on perceived threats and enemy technology expectations. Don't make the mistake of thinking that just because I disagree with you, I am some sort of uneducated buffoon.

As far as 1, 2, and 4 go, personal attacks will be re-used at a later date to underscore the futility of trying to beat me intellectually. It can be done, but not by people who at any point in the debate feel the need to go there. Hawkins wouldn't bother calling me an ignorant humorless putz. He'd just put me in my place with an argument that I'd only partially (and that only barely) comprehend.

So let's just pretend that 1, 2, and 4 never happened for now, and I'll use them against you later. 3 and 5 sounded interesting. Have at it.
 
WHERE were you eductated FL???

Just saying your are intelligent proves nothing...your arguements do not refute MAD and fully ignore the political consequences that an SDI shield would present nor the technical limitations.

I gave a run-down on why SDI isn't worth it...you have not comeback on it....get your head out your arse OH SPIRIT OF MARY WHITEHOUSE AND PRESENT A CASE!

P.S I've debated for my university at cambridge and you don't see me boasting :p (course I didn't win, my views on the Korean War cost us dear!)
 
Originally posted by kittenOFchaos
It all depends on what the SDI can achieve...if the system would be able to invalidate a nuclear arsenal such as that of China or Russia then American can nuke them and they can't retaliate...bye bye MAD.
MAD is an insane doctrine. Peace cannot be maintained by a threat. Did 50 years of Cold War teach you nothing?
Originally posted by kittenOFchaos
If it can only take down the one or two missiles of rogue states, then ask wouldn't it be easier for briefcase nuclear devices to hit America and give a chance at avoiding relatiation...so no point in having the shield.
So there's no point in protecting only one or two cities? Sorry, I value human life more than you do.
Originally posted by kittenOFchaos
In essence most people are pissed off that it requires foreign countries allowing American bases to detect missiles in-bound for the USA and yet they may be out of the shield. It could remove MAD from the equation AND it is a hell of alot of money that could be used to help sort out present day problems.
It's our money, we'll spend it as we damn well please. As far as it not protecting you, well now we see the real beef, don't we?
Originally posted by kittenOFchaos
SDI is just the Americans wanting to make themselves immune to outside attack...and I'm afraid that it won't help at all...it WON'T any time soon be able to cope with MIRVs and it WON't stop terrorist nuclear attacks which are unlikely to be by missile. Rogue States are covered by MAD and by the fact america can "GO IN" and eliminate such states if they ever thought there was that big a threat.
Revenge isn't good enough. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. That's American wisdom, but wisdom nonetheless.
Originally posted by kittenOFchaos
Plus alot of people fear that those with fears that their weapons will be invalidated after the shield is up will thus have a deadline for action.

Again, their failure to deal with our nuclear immunity does not constitute a problem for America. While MAD exists, it still exists. Once it is done, the best man has won.

Even though I still managed to disagree with every single point you 'made', I still feel that this satisfies your requirements for a rebuttal.
 
Originally posted by FearlessLeader2

It's our money, we'll spend it as we damn well please. As far as it not protecting you, well now we see the real beef, don't we?

Even before the 9/11 attacks our government was in a tight fiscal situation (mostly due to Bush's tax cut). There are much more important things we could be spending money on then a massively expensive missile defense system that is not guaranteed to work. If we only put more money toward paying off the national debt then our government will not be spending as much money on interest from the debt and ultimately we could lower taxes permanently. Or we could spend the money on important domestic programs such as education, health, and state programs. Basically it is just a matter of which party you support; Republicans want the missile defense while Democrats do not.
 
MAD was shown to be effective as no two nuclear powers have used nuclear weapons on each other or directly engaged each other in war...at Checkpoint Charlie and the Cuba Crisis the THREAT of mutually assured destruction (or in the case of Checkpoint Charlie the loss of a large numbers) provided the motivation to AVOID war at all cost.


As for your regard for life ANYONE knows that spend on humanitarian concerns etc money earmarked for SDI would save alot more for sure instead of a mere potentiality...

My BEEF about America building SDI as far as I'm concerned is that it will encourage isolationism in America as she thinks she is immune from attack...at least September the 11th woke her up...and isolationism means that America does not play her role as world sherrif (to which Britain will tag along as a deputy.)

Plus for SDI to work we have to have an early warning system...I live no more than an hour an a half drive from the site the Americans are upgrading massively as part of SDI to provide a warning...if we are out of the shield we provide the early warning and as such become a target should a nation want to remove the early warning element.


A prevention that merely covers one or two cities and only from warheads versus a proactive role in the world community...clamping down on rogue states like Iraq by invasion and/or bombing...by helping the russians secure her armourment and BY trying to maintain goodwill in the world to america ARE preventions...

Invalidating MAD isn't going to come soon and the rogue nation threat is not likely to be via a warhead...

SDI is a waste of money, encourages isolationism, could endangers MAD and is at present technically unproven.

You are so hysterical FL...

P.S merely listing come-backs alongside what I said is not enough...some things are of greater weight...merely screaming MAD is insane doesn't address the fact it is rational and prevented a nuclear confrontation or a major war.
 
Originally posted by ApocalypseKurtz
Even before the 9/11 attacks our government was in a tight fiscal situation (mostly due to Bush's tax cut). There are much more important things we could be spending money on then a massively expensive missile defense system that is not guaranteed to work.
Which is more costly? Not having yet another anti-smoking poster, or having an ICBM vaporize Chicago? In all seriousness, think before you press Send.
Originally posted by ApocalypseKurtz
If we only put more money toward paying off the national debt then our government will not be spending as much money on interest from the debt and ultimately we could lower taxes permanently. Or we could spend the money on important domestic programs such as education, health, and state programs. Basically it is just a matter of which party you support; Republicans want the missile defense while Democrats do not.
Why is money the Democrat answer to everything? After 50 years of Welfare, you people still don't get it, do you?

Handing people a check every month to sit on the couch and make babies does not help them. It creates dependency. Dependency, as new-agers are so fond of telling us all, is bad. Apparently, as long as these new dependents keep voting Democrat though, that is okay. :rolleyes:

When you pay someone to do something, they tend to keep on doing it. It is kind of like inertia that way, but human inertia is a far more powerful force. If you want to help people, you have to put the profit in the solution, not the symptom.

Let's take world hunger as an example. The present popular solution is for people to give food to the people who need it. The problem is, there aren't enough people or transports to do the job. So far, no one has offered a solution.

The typical Democrat solution would be to send more money. This makes sure that people realize that there is big money in people starving to death, and it will go on indefinitely.

My idea is this: make all costs of shipping food to starving nations worth 10 times their dollar value in tax credits. That means if Federal Express has three of its cargo planes fly food to the Sudan, and it costs Federal Express $100,000 for each flight, they just made $3,000,000 in tax credits. Seems to me that the big money now lies in sending food to the starving, not sending money to agencies that can't get food anywhere.

Let's say Brinks Security wants in on the big tax cuts. Groovy. Some of their boys step forward for hazard pay to ride 30mm cannon on the shipments, to make sure they get where they're intended. Total cost to Brinks, $50,000 per guard, ten guards per shipment. Brinks just made $45 million in tax cuts.

Let me tell ya something. If the world governments started doing this, world hunger would be a bad memory, and nothing more. :goodjob: And let's not forget that these companies now have more money, and can now afford to expand, hire more people, create more jobs, end dependency, etc... And those ex-starvaing people can now have decent lives, and maybe become a stable economy that can stand on its own, and become a trading partner, and now there's more jobs, more money, more good life for once poverty-stricken people.

I think the world needs to focus on the big issues, like hunger, and quit squabbling over crap like Isreal and Palestine. Screw 'em. Close the borders, airdrop lots of ammo, and wait to see who comes out alive. In the meantime, let's get something worthwhile done.
 
You NEVER get things in proportion...in palestine as few hundred deaths a year ARE FAR more preferable to all out war as you seem to advocate as preferable...

In getting worthwhile things done I consider peace in Israel -or at least not full-blown war to be preferable...


As for world hunger...you start a thread on that and your "solution" and I'll happily contest it there...
 
Originally posted by kittenOFchaos
You NEVER get things in proportion...in palestine as few hundred deaths a year ARE FAR more preferable to all out war as you seem to advocate as preferable...
If the above does not strike anyone else as cold and cruel, then I am truly alone here. I happen to think that no deaths is by far preferable.
Originally posted by kittenOFchaos
In getting worthwhile things done I consider peace in Israel -or at least not full-blown war to be preferable...
No, you want to have the cake and eat it too. Leaving that pot to simmer, just because is hasn't spilled over yet, is WRONG. Something needs to be DONE. A strong nation, that can DICTATE peace to troublemakers can get it done.
Originally posted by kittenOFchaos
As for world hunger...you start a thread on that and your "solution" and I'll happily contest it there...
You got it. I can't wait to hear this.
 
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