[RD] Gender is a social construct.

[TruePurple]

Like seems like many would agree with me that gender is a social construct, "sex" as well. For that matter race is a social construct

So, if gender is a social construct, how can anyone be "trans-social-construct"? Why can't anyone be trans-racial then?

Some of the same people who might otherwise agree that gender is a social construct, then go on to make it sound like some people have brains that don't fit their bodies. Like there is such a thing as a "male" or "female" brain.

Pro and anti trans in some ways often seem to be on the same side, both seem to say gender is a thing you must fall somewhere on a spectrum of. Just one side says it doesn't necessarily match your body and the other side disagrees. And both sides will send you hate for even thinking of this topic, especially trans people. You're automatically phobic and hating if you question this innate gender premise. But I've seen directly trans people who feel pressure to be on one side of a gender norms or another. The pressure to conform to gender expectations is real for both sides. Yeah there is nonbineries but they don't seem to get much of the attention in these conversations. And isn't a nonbinary just someone who rejects gender norms anyway? Not a condition but a belief system.

I say give us "mixed gender" everything, sports, bathrooms etc. and let people like what they like and live how they want to live. I'd rather be curb stomping gender norms to the ground than conforming to them like both sides seem to.

Could it be that say someone with a penis must say they are "trans" in order to be allowed to like traditionally feminine things and the other way? Like what's the difference between someone who likes all feminine stuff but has a penis but identifies as male verses identifies as female? Sure seems like it's about pronouns and social acceptance.

 

[schlaufuchs]

A lot of this is premised on assumptions you have constructed about trans people and trans identity without actually knowing very much about us. You aren’t going to get very far in understanding these questions you have until you learn to leave your ego at the door and approach the matter from a place of acknowledged ignorance and earnest curiosity.

 

[amadeus]

I never thought of “X is a social construct” to be of much utility because just about anything could be called a social construct when it revolves around people.

 

[TruePurple]

A lot of this is premised on assumptions you have constructed about trans people and trans identity without actually knowing very much about us. You aren’t going to get very far in understanding these questions you have until you learn to leave your ego at the door and approach the matter from a place of acknowledged ignorance and earnest curiosity.

There is a reason I made a RD thread instead of posting in your "Ask a trans question" thread. I don't believe "gender" is real and want to discuss this seeming cognitive dissidence with those who might agree with me yet still believe in trans-social-construct.

I am not a student and you a teacher, I am not looking to learn anymore than you are. I mean I will listen to your opinions and be open to considering them for changing my mind if I find you convincing. But please don't confuse this thread for your asking questions thread.

 

[TruePurple]

I never thought of “X is a social construct” to be of much utility because just about anything could be called a social construct when it revolves around people.

Having 6 fingers on a hand is a real condition, not a "social construct", ditto for say if you got bad legs, are nearly blind or got a third working eye on your forehead. These are "real". (well I don't know if there is anyone with a third working eye on their forehead, but if it was real, it'd be real, not a "social construct")

Where as gender and gender norms are something "we" (as in society in general) just made up. Some expect someone of male or female identity to comply with the appropriate gender norms. So instead of someone struggling with a female identity but a preference to many things in the male gender norm box just liking what they like and living how they want, they take on the trans label identity to get better acceptance for being allowed to do those male gender norms.. IMO "trans" is a identity people choose to better fit in with general society with their otherwise contrary to gender norms preferences and in the end reinforce gender norms.

I put more and more nuance in my OP so please don't reply to just this post but the OP as well.

 

[NinjaCow64]

Like seems like many would agree with me that gender is a social construct, "sex" as well. For that matter race is a social construct

So, if gender is a social construct, how can anyone be "trans-social-construct"? Why can't anyone be trans-racial then?

Just because two things are social constructs doesn’t make them exactly the same.

Race and gender are obviously different - race refers to a series of physical features and cultural ideas that are inherited from ones family. You don’t inherit gender from your parents.

Pro and anti trans in some ways often seem to be on the same side, both seem to say gender is a thing you must fall somewhere on a spectrum of. Just one side says it doesn't necessarily match your body and the other side disagrees.

You realise that is a distinction so large that it basically makes it impossible for us to be on the “same side” right?

And both sides will send you hate for even thinking of this topic, especially trans people. You're automatically phobic and hating if you question this premise.

People get frustrated when you make a lot of assumptions about a topic that you know nothing about that deeply effects them.

But I've seen directly trans people who feel pressure to be on one side of a gender norms or another. The pressure to conform to gender expectations is real for both sides.

There is pressure to conform to heightened displays of femininity or masculinity because otherwise you get mocked for “not even trying”. And then when trans people do conform to heightened displays of femininity or masculinity they get mocked for “reducing gender to stereotypes”.

Yeah there is nonbineries but they don't seem to get much of the attention in these conversations. And isn't a nonbinary just someone who rejects gender norms anyway? Not a condition but a belief system.

Hi, nonbinary person here. That isn’t an entirely accurate representation of what being nonbinary is - I don’t feel like I meet the definition of male or female but I don’t deny the existence of gender norms. I wouldn’t describe it as a belief system as I don’t demand that others perceive there gender as I do.

I say give us "mixed gender" everything, sports, bathrooms etc. and let people like what they like and live how they want to live.

Sure. How does trans people existing prevent that from happening?

I'd rather be curb stomping gender norms to the ground than conforming to them like both sides seem to.

If trans people enforced gender norms then then those most deeply invested in upholding gender norms would not be violently trying to suppress trans people.

Could it be that say someone with a penis must say they are "trans" in order to be allowed to like traditionally feminine things and the other way?

There is a mistaken belief among many who are skeptical of trans people that trans people identify the way we do because its as simple as “I want to wear a dress but only women are allowed to wear dresses therefore I must become a woman”. It rarely, if ever, works like that.

Many trans people experiment with being “feminine men” or “masculine women” before transitioning and they despise it, because it wasn’t the “feminine/masculine” part that was the problem it was the “man/woman” part.

The overwhelming majority of trans people are accepting of and support GNC (gender non-conforming) men and women. Many trans people are GNC also (I’ve met butch trans women before for instance). But there is this assumption that trans people would be happier as GNC people of their assigned gender at birth and we assure you we would not be happier like that.

Like what's the difference between someone who likes all feminine stuff but has a penis but identifies as male verses identifies as female? Sure seems like it's about pronouns and social acceptance.

You are going to get a lot of different answers from other trans people about this then yeah, that is what I want. Use my pronouns (she or they), treat me with basic human dignity and don’t try and prevent me from altering my body how I would like.

What I don’t understand about you gender abolitionist types is how trans people existing negatively impacts you or undermines your projects in the slightest.

 

[NinjaCow64]

There is a reason I made a RD thread instead of posting in your "Ask a trans question" thread. I don't believe "gender" is real and want to discuss this seeming cognitive dissidence with those who might agree with me yet still believe in trans-social-construct.

You are misunderstanding what a social construct is. Just because something is a social construct, doesn’t mean it isn’t real. What a social construct means is that it is a concept constructed by society rather than being an inherent truth of the universe like the laws of physics or something.

Another example of a social construct is money. No serious person would argue that money isn’t a real thing that exists. Likewise, gender is real and it has a real effect on society, even though it was also made up by society.

I am not a student and you a teacher, I am not looking to learn anymore than you are. I mean I will listen to your opinions and be open to considering them for changing my mind if I find you convincing. But please don't confuse this thread for your asking questions thread.

I mean surely if you want to understand what trans people think about gender you would want to hear from trans people, like myself?

I really don’t see the utility of having a seperate thread for this, whatever.

 

[schlaufuchs]

you’re free to do what you want. what I am telling you is that you are not actually going to learn anything asking the questions you are asking.

I mean if all you’re looking for is someone to pat you on the back and tell you how smart you are, then by all means, carry on. But on the off chance that you actually want these questions answered, then I’m simply trying to provide some helpful advice. The approach you are taking to these questions is the equivalent of the flat earther who asks how they can see the Chicago skyline from Michigan if plugging the distance into a formula they got says they shouldn’t be able to.

 

[TruePurple]

Race and gender are obviously different - race refers to a series of physical features and cultural ideas that are inherited from ones family. You don’t inherit gender from your parents.

In the sense that "gender" something that someone decided for you and/or you decided for yourself and not a real thing, correct.

But genitalia and proclivities regarding gender norms are literally inherited from parents. Not sure what that has to do with anything though.

Also you are taught culture, not inherited. Or if you want to say any parental teaching and example is "inheritance" Then I withdraw my first reply since you would absolutely inherit gender from your parents, who else would be the first people who teach you what it means to be a gender and what gender norms you must follow.

People get frustrated when you make a lot of assumptions about a topic that you know nothing about that deeply effects them.

I am really offended at this intellectually dishonest statement. My disagreeing with your opinion does not mean I am ignorant. You calling me ignorant is a ad-hominem way of avoiding actually responding to my points.

How does trans people existing prevent that from happening?

That is some intellectually dishonest phrasing. By removing gender norms and categorizing, there becomes no reason for anyone to need to choose the identity of "trans".

Hi, nonbinary person here. That isn’t an entirely accurate representation of what being nonbinary is - I don’t feel like I meet the definition of male or female but I don’t deny the existence of gender norms. I wouldn’t describe it as a belief system as I don’t demand that others perceive there gender as I do.

As a human who has lived their life chafing against gender expectations I do have some say and knowledge here. If I took on the label of non-binary myself, would you better receive my opinions?

There is a mistaken belief among many who are skeptical of trans people that trans people identify the way we do because its as simple as “I want to wear a dress but only women are allowed to wear dresses therefore I must become a woman”. It rarely, if ever, works like that.

Many trans people experiment with being “feminine men” or “masculine women” before transitioning and they despise it, because it wasn’t the “feminine/masculine” part that was the problem it was the “man/woman” part.

Destrawman it with the whole gender norm and not just cross dressing and I would say I am arguing that is not a mistaken belief! Saying what you said is saying "gender" is not just a social construct but a physical biological actual thing!

I "asked" (ask as in for people to state their opinion so I can better debate it) in my OP and got no reply.

"Could it be that say someone with a penis must say they are "trans" in order to be allowed to like traditionally feminine things and the other way? Like what's the difference between someone who likes all feminine stuff but has a penis but identifies as male verses identifies as female? Sure seems like it's about pronouns and social acceptance."

As far as hormons and surgery. I don't believe you would know how you'd feel with such before doing so. And the idea of "trans" is a environmental belief that colors the experience as well. Whether you get your hormones chemically changed or surgery on your body is just a more elaborate way of concerning yourself with pronouns. All a way so you'll be treated as your preferred gender as part of gender norms.

Regardless do you admit this is saying there is a male and female brain? That there is something inherently gendered built into at least some peoples brains. That is a premise I do not believe.

Use my pronouns (she or they), treat me with basic human dignity and don’t try and prevent me from altering my body how I would like.

I try to use gender neutral pronouns like xe anyway for everyone. It's noncommittal regarding the topic of gender. If someone wants to get super picky about particular pronouns and a simple nonspecific one won't do, I have a problem with that. The rest is fine. Your body is your body, feel free to do with it what you like. Just like when I was in a bad situation as a kid not sure if I'd ever escape the living hell, I would say I have a right to suicide and no one should be allowed to stop me. Unless I am of a age where I can't make a rational decision or the situation isn't all that bad. I am a strong believer in full bodily autonomy, even if I find it absurd sometimes. Doctors decide babies sex plenty anyway.

What I don’t understand about you gender abolitionist types is how trans people existing negatively impacts you or undermines your projects in the slightest.

There is enough people who think somewhat like me that they have a label I've never heard of for it? Projects?

My issue is with gender norms. Trans by definition enforces gender norms. When it's not eclipsing the topic altogether. Like kinda hard to talk about having non-separated sports when the discussion is all about whether A person fits in X box or Y box as per separate teams.

Like I know a trans who changed their name. It wasn't a particularly gendered name in the first place. If it was all about brains not matching hormones and genitals, there wouldn't be so much fuss about names and pronouns. You know names absolutely don't have genders for real, right? Like "john" is only a "male name" because that's what people decided based on biblical text and horsehocky.

Trans people say gender exists in the brain and can biologically not match. I say gender doesn't exist at all. It's a fundamental difference of opinion and what opinion gets air time. You don't see "gender abolitionists" (funny term, to abolish something you don't agree exists in the first place) getting talk in media.

Let's say you do have a penis but like skirts, frills, pink, gossip (insert whatever female gender norm) but you identify as "male" (or the other way around) You'd get all the same flack that someone who identfies as "trans" gets, without the protective status, so even more. Trans is something they believe you are born with? So that person with a penis who wants the female gender norm stuff but not the pronouns hormones or surgery is just a freak. A worthless rebel to the gender norms. That "gender" that both the trans community and the bigots seem to agree exists.

 

[TruePurple]

you’re free to do what you want. what I am telling you is that you are not actually going to learn anything asking the questions you are asking.

I mean if all you’re looking for is someone to pat you on the back and tell you how smart you are, then by all means, carry on. But on the off chance that you actually want these questions answered, then I’m simply trying to provide some helpful advice. The approach you are taking to these questions is the equivalent of the flat earther who asks how they can see the Chicago skyline from Michigan if plugging the distance into a formula they got says they shouldn’t be able to.

But for the most part I am not "asking" but stating opinion of reality and debating. You specifically stated that discussion is not allowed in your question thread. Please stop making this about your question thread.

saying gender isn't real is like saying earth is flat

I am paraphrasing a bit here but that is essentially what you said. That is not a intellectually honest statement to compare my position to that of a flat earther.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

What's the "reality" bro

 

[TruePurple]

You are misunderstanding what a social construct is. Just because something is a social construct, doesn’t mean it isn’t real. What a social construct means is that it is a concept constructed by society rather than being an inherent truth of the universe like the laws of physics or something.

How ever you define "social construct", race is that as much as gender is that.

Thus there would be trans-racial people, people who are one race on the inside but have the body of another race. They want you to refer to them their trans-race. Maybe some surgery or drugs too for getting physical appearance to match their trans-racial self. IMO "trans-racial" is no less ludicrous a concept than "trans-gender"

 

[Cloud_Strife]

I'm starting to think this is less about hashing out gender and more to do with you associating trans people to the likes of dolazel.

It certainly explains your desire to avoid, let's say, a thread where your views would get you removed pretty quickly

 

[TruePurple]

I'm starting to think this is less about hashing out gender and more to do with you associating trans people to the likes of dolazel.

It certainly explains your desire to avoid, let's say, a thread where your views would get you removed pretty quickly

I had never even heard dolazel before I briefly searched the name before replying with this now. But now that I have, sure. Xem decising that they are "black" is just as fine as deciding xe is male or something.

If mods choose to censor me because no one is allowed to say gender isn't real, than that is their intolerant choice. No need for you to go there.

 

[Yeekim]

Having 6 fingers on a hand is a real condition, not a "social construct", ditto for say if you got bad legs, are nearly blind or got a third working eye on your forehead. These are "real". (well I don't know if there is anyone with a third working eye on their forehead, but if it was real, it'd be real, not a "social construct")

Where as gender and gender norms are something "we" (as in society in general) just made up.

Money, laws and state borders are also things that we just made up.
Does not make them any less "real", as you'll quickly discover should you try to behave as if they weren't.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

I had never even heard dolazel before I briefly searched the name before replying with this now. But now that I have, sure. Xem decising that they are "black" is just as fine as deciding xe is male or something.

If mods choose to censor me because no one is allowed to say gender isn't real, than that is their intolerant choice. No need for you to go there.

What is the functional difference between what you are saying and that of a transphobe arguing that trans people's identities are not valid

 

[TruePurple]

What is the functional difference between what you are saying and that of a transphobe arguing that trans people's identities are not valid

Responding to both Yeekim and this simultaneously, can't get that multiquote thing to work.

What's the difference if any of someone being "trans-racial" verses someone being "trans-gender" in your opinion?

Looking at the wiki for that "dolazel" I see talking like xe "lied" about being black. How is that different than accusing someone of "lying" about their "gender"?

 

[Zardnaar]

Pretty much everything we do is a social construct. What's acceptable varies by culture, time place etc.

Men traditionally do some jobs women basically can't. Yes those jobs exist regardless of laws, customs. Etc.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

You're equating someone who lied about their race to trans people's identities, i know you're not dense and that you can grasp the implications of what you're saying

 

[Zardnaar]

You're equating someone who lied about their race to trans people's identities, i know you're not dense and that you can grasp the implications of what you're saying

Some people identify as trans racial right or wrong. Here it's left up to the individual what they identify as racially.

Theoretically you could move here and legally identify as a Maori.