SE/FE Walkthrough

[30+]

@skall

Your use of GS seems fine with CE/HE but would be a horrible idea with SE due to the fact the main purpose of at least the first 4 out of 5 GS is to lightbulb techs (incidently, something that would take a CE FOREVER to research in comparison at the same point in game).

 

[Wodan]

I disagree it's a horrible idea. Early academies are good for culture, and the 50% research is nothing to sneer at.

Ultimately, it depends on what kind of game the player feels like.

GS are a resource. You can burn them early, to get an early advantage. This advantage can be used to gain certain benefits early (early maces, early courthouses, early irrigation, early bureaucracy, etc.) Or, to gain a religion (particularly Taoism, though if you went for GP instead of GS you could do others).

Alternately, you can play a longer-timeframe strategy. Turning an early GS into an Academy will provide much more beakers than lightbulbing, over the long run. This will outstrip any benefit you gain from early buildings.

Anyway, you know all this. As I said, ultimately it comes down to what kind of strategy the player wants to pursue. Totally subjective. There are pros and cons, either way.

For example, quite often I don't lightbulb. Why? Because I want a more challenging and enjoyable late game. That's the same reason I don't always blitz the AI in an early war.

Wodan

 

[Skallagrimson]

@skall

Your use of GS seems fine with CE/HE but would be a horrible idea with SE due to the fact the main purpose of at least the first 4 out of 5 GS is to lightbulb techs (incidently, something that would take a CE FOREVER to research in comparison at the same point in game).

Yes, you can lightbulb techs, but ONLY the techs they allow you to, which takes control out of your hands; meanwhile, each GS you spawn makes the next one to come along take that much more in GPP, so while the techs are taking more beakers to discover, you're generating fewer and fewer GSes with which to discover them. In other words, you're headed in the wrong direction at a time when the AIs are headed in the right one.

Even in an SE/FE, if you have specialists flipped for most of your libraries and some good coin-resources like wine and furs, Academies can boost the beaker output of those cities and accelerate your research without having to rely on an increasingly-diminishing source of your beakers.

 

[30+]

Back to the Original Poster, (if it is possible at this late date), I have been experimenting with this build order, and have been pretty happy with the progress. I'm wondering about why you settled you first GS. Have you tried building the academy early? It seems like some of the tech you need to suffer through like civil service, could be expedited with it.

I've already answered this very question in an early post in this thread (please read it ).

My findings thus far have been that with a philosophical civ you can burn off at least on GS on settling or lightbulbing math or whatnot, but with non-philosophicals you have to horde them for paper/education. But I was able to get gunpowder for Mehmed at around 400AD, tho my starting city was unusually good, grassland wheat (x2), cows, forested deer, marble (let me get the Oracle for COL), AND grassland iron.

Seeing how my post was geared towards SE/FE of course a Philo leader was used. Also, in my walkthrough, my TIMING was very precise, so precise in fact that I spawned my 5th GS EXACTLY 1 turn before CS was finished........therefore allowing me to bulb paper/education immediately, which of course allowed me to directly and very very quickly research Liberalism.

I would NEVER NEVER go for the oracle because it would DILUTE the GPP needed to produce purely GS. There is no room for GProph in my style of SE/FE.

Additionally, if I am understanding your post (correct me if I am wrong) you seem to be playing with Mehemed?? If that is correct, there is no way that a non-Philo leader could research Liberalism by 400 AD and then pick Nationalism as free tech. I say Liberalism and Nationalism because that is the tech path my walkthrough follows. So if I misunderstand what your saying, sorry . Just making the point that any comparison you are making should be made following the same tech path I did.

Anyways, the point is you won't have enough money/research from CE/HE to match the tech speed of SE/FE Philo leader (not at this point in time), and certainly, you will not generate the necessary GS from a non-philo leader to bulb techs at an equivalent to the walkthrough I showed.


@skall who says:

Yes, you can lightbulb techs, but ONLY the techs they allow you to, which takes control out of your hands; meanwhile, each GS you spawn makes the next one to come along take that much more in GPP, so while the techs are taking more beakers to discover, you're generating fewer and fewer GSes with which to discover them. In other words, you're headed in the wrong direction at a time when the AIs are headed in the right one.

Even in an SE/FE, if you have specialists flipped for most of your libraries and some good coin-resources like wine and furs, Academies can boost the beaker output of those cities and accelerate your research without having to rely on an increasingly-diminishing source of your beakers.

Some of your quote has already been answered in my response immediately above your words ^^.

This is a SE/FE walkthrough, not a CE or HE. My point? That while using your first 3-4 GS to settle academies is a FANTASTIC idea in a CE/HE economy due to greater research potential.....it's a HORRIBLE idea in SE/FE.

Why horrible??? If I were to make all academies with my first 3-4 GS in a SE/FE game then how in the world could I lightbulb Philo/Paper/Educ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????

In Vanilla Cathy was my favorite leader.....I was a CE whore! Always set up GL to set up early GS for all my Cottage cites, then Bam...tech to democracy and communism (Kremlin/rushbuy!).

But once again, this is a SE/FE strategy. Try researching Liberalism from 100-500 AD if you make academies with too many early GS. You would be wasting a potential of 4 GS x 1500 beakers each (6000 beakers research, although the actual # of beakers actually researched from bulbing Philo/Paper/Education is more like 5,000).

There is no way that getting all early academies will produce 5,000 beakers of raw research. There is no way a HE/CE will produce 5,000 beakers of research at the same point in time in comparison to my walkthrough. The whole point of my SE/FE was to reach Liberalsim super fast to abuse your tech leader via superior units/tech trade (to include selling techs for $$)/and bribe AI to war with another.

ONCE AGAIN, something YOU CANNOT DO if you make all academies. I don't care how many furs/cottages you have....you won't match 5,000 beakers of research at same point in time with CE/HE, or SE/FE with excessive early academies.

If you wan't to argue that a HE of some type could be beneficial, therefore using more GS for academies, then I would agree. But once again, this is a SE/FE plan which is geared towards the earliest possible Liberalism time (with 5 cities). And I have to say, that my earliest Liberalism time reached has been 150 AD. No CE/HE can match this, nor can a NON PHILO SE/FE. The 5,000 beakers you get from proper use of lightbulbing techs is far superior to any other method of research at this point in the game, period .

Further, just to beat a dead horse even more, you say that I am heading in the wrong direction while the AI is heading in the right one. My question would be, did you even read my walkthrough? Have you ever played with a SE/FE style game? On emperor level, with my SE/FE game, I was a rediculous amount of techs ahead of the AI's the entire game. They were no where even close, and I mean NO-WHERE!! Once again, CE/HE or non Philo leader CANNONT match early research which is gained by proper use of a lightbulbing techs.

Also, why would you even bring up the point that a person can only lightbulb techs that they allow you too?? This makes no sense to me. Anyone who plays the game will only be allowed to lightbulb the techs the game makers have allowed.....whether GProph, GS/GA/GE, etc. You can only receive so many $$ from cottages as well, as you can only receive so much food from certain resources, etc.

We are all constrained by rules which game creators have made. The difference is using them to maximize game play results. Hence the great lightbulb!

P.s.

Many other users are much much MUCH better at SE/FE than I am. Even in my original post I eluded to having many problems keeping up in research with a pure SE/FE AFTER Liberalism, however, in my succsessful games with SE/FE I have used the superior production one gets from farms to steam roll over the competition (I.E. 48 units in 7 turns from the whip). I am sure many others can better balance caste/whip/research than myself. Having said that, I believe all the points I have made are still very valid.

Further , I actually play with the Incans in 75-80% of games and use a stonehenge/oracle HE geared towards many more academies(sp?) and cottages. So believe it or not I do agree with your GS use for more academies under different context, but not in a SE/FE.

 

[Skallagrimson]

But once again, this is a SE/FE strategy. Try researching Liberalism from 100-500 AD if you make academies with too many early GS. You would be wasting a potential of 4 GS x 1500 beakers each (6000 beakers research, although the actual # of beakers actually researched from bulbing Philo/Paper/Education is more like 5,000).

I guess the main sticking point for me is a mistrust that it would even let you bulb Philo/Paper/Education. Every time I get a GS, the bulb option is something completely unrelated to what I'm gunning for at the time. How are you able to crack into the source code of the game and make it offer up the tech you want it to offer? An exploit, perhaps?

There is no way that getting all early academies will produce 5,000 beakers of raw research.

You've flipped a number of Scientist specialists, have libraries, and IIRC, build GL. Just a few coin-resources out in the empire here and there should make up the difference, without having to waste early farms on cottages! Plus all the beakers in the world from bulbing are of no use if it WILL NOT BULB the techs you want. And in my experience, every time I want tech A, it offers tech B, waste of beakers for that critical phase of the game.

I'd rather have 800 beakers toward the tech I want than 1000 beakers toward "underwater basketweaving" or some such crap.

Further, just to beat a dead horse even more, you say that I am heading in the wrong direction while the AI is heading in the right one. My question would be, did you even read my walkthrough? Have you ever played with a SE/FE style game? On emperor level, with my SE/FE game, I was a rediculous amount of techs ahead of the AI's the entire game. They were no where even close, and I mean NO-WHERE!! Once again, CE/HE or non Philo leader CANNONT match early research which is gained by proper use of a lightbulbing techs.

I'm not arguing in favor of CE/HE in the early phase of the game. I'm arguing in favor of a better USE of all those farms and specialists. Multiplying the effects of them, leveraging that advantage you speak of to a greater degree, and with greater control.

Even if I'm Financial I'll still start out SE/FE until everything is in place to where it's safe to start converting some of the farms to cottages in the trade cities--infrastructure and army has all been whipped, specialists are flipped, and population explosions are no longer a healthy thing and there's nothing critical left to whip the unhappies into doing.

Also, why would you even bring up the point that a person can only lightbulb techs that they allow you too?? This makes no sense to me. Anyone who plays the game will only be allowed to lightbulb the techs the game makers have allowed.....whether GProph, GS/GA/GE, etc. You can only receive so many $$ from cottages as well, as you can only receive so much food from certain resources, etc.

It makes perfect sense that if you're relying on a GS to bulb you Philosophy, but it wants to bulb about 1/8 of Astronomy, all your effort has been wasted. To leverage that bulb in any way, you have to distract yourself from the Liberalism path and complete Astronomy, which is what *REALLY* makes no sense here.

 

[cabert]

you can only lightbulb techs that you are allowed to research.
If you have Meditation & Drama or Code of Laws, you will be able to lightbulb philo.

 

[Skallagrimson]

you can only lightbulb techs that you are allowed to research.
If you have Meditation & Drama or Code of Laws, you will be able to lightbulb philo.

"Able" to? It gives you a choice? There's always more than one tech you are "able" to research, and to rely on the one you want being THE one a GS offers, to me that's just too much trust.... unless there's a crack.

 

[cabert]

"Able" to? It gives you a choice? There's always more than one tech you are "able" to research, and to rely on the one you want being THE one a GS offers, to me that's just too much trust.... unless there's a crack.

you're paranoid or am I so unclear ?

Each type of great person has a "built in" list of techs they will lightbulb, in the order of the list.

If a tech is not researchable (by "normal" research through commerce and specialists), the great person will propose the next tech, ..., until he finds on his list a tech that his available at this point.
He won't give you any choice. That's why it's a bit tricky.

For example, here is the beginning of the great scientist's list :
1°Writing
2°Mathematics
3°Scientific Method
4°Physics
5°Education
6°Printing Press
7°Fiber Optics
8°Computers
9°The Wheel
10°Philosophy

If you want to lightbulb philo, you need Meditation & (Drama or Code of Laws).
For code of laws and drama, you need writing, so there is no way to lightbulb philo without writing=
1) You must research writing.
2) When you know writing, mathematics are researcheable. So if you don't know mathematics, your GS will propose maths. To get rid of this one, you must research it or trade for it.
You can usually trade alphabet for mathematics.
3) Scimet requires Printing Press & (Astronomy or Chemistry). At this point, you probably don't know printing press, and you also probably don't know astro and chemistry. SO this one gets skipped
4) Physics requires scimet. scimet is already out of reach, so this one is further out of reach. It is skipped.
5) Education requires paper. If you don't have paper yet, it is skipped.
6) Printing Press requires machinery and paper. If you don't have paper, it is skipped.
7) and 8) I hope you got it now, and I don't have to say again why it is skipped.
9) the wheel. Let's hope you know the wheel at this point. If you don't, well, research it please.
10) lightbulb!

I cannot make it any clearer. I hope you get it now.

There are very good articles about this, and before you start saying all of us are cheaters, you could maybe read a few of those, don't you think?

 

[Skallagrimson]

you're paranoid or am I so unclear ?

I have been called paranoid from time to time, LOL.

He won't give you any choice. That's why it's a bit tricky.

Which is why I don't like it. I don't like trusting software to implement my strategy precisely the way I want, as that trust has proven unwise in the past.

For example, here is the beginning of the great scientist's list :
1°Writing
2°Mathematics
3°Scientific Method
4°Physics
5°Education
6°Printing Press
7°Fiber Optics
8°Computers
9°The Wheel
10°Philosophy

With my luck I end up having traded for the prereqs for Physics during a conquest (peace offering) and then when I need Philosophy, NOPE, gotta be Physics... about 1/10th of the way there, LOL.

At least having a list is a start though.

 

[Mutineer]

There nothing to do with luck, only with exec planing. Order of Great People preferences is known. All you need to do is to avoide to get unwanted preferences. No one can force you to research/trade tech you do not want.

 

[Skallagrimson]

Everything down to the map you get and battle outcomes, has luck as an element.

 

[Yva!n]

To skal - Lightbulbing is totally deterministic, so the only chance involved is if your neighbors will trade with you to (so you dont have to research every tech). Seems to me that you have three painful techs, Alphabet, (which will usually get you every early tech up to Iron Working), Civil Service, and then Liberalism.

Additionally, if I am understanding your post (correct me if I am wrong) you seem to be playing with Mehemed?? If that is correct, there is no way that a non-Philo leader could research Liberalism by 400 AD and then pick Nationalism as free tech. I say Liberalism and Nationalism because that is the tech path my walkthrough follows. So if I misunderstand what your saying, sorry . Just making the point that any comparison you are making should be made following the same tech path I did.

Yes, I was, the great thing about your tech path is that it also is a terrific way to get to gunpowder. After lightbulbing Education you go for gunpowder instead of liberalism. (which you go for next inorder to get nationhood for the draft) So for Mehmet, unlocking Jannisaries around 500AD is pretty sweet. From my recent test games it seems that non philo's can do it too, they just don't have the luxury of settling that first scientist.

 

[Skallagrimson]

Tech trading has to grind to a halt though if I want to avoid being thrown into a futile bulb-quest for Physics or what-not. I'll make my objection to this more specific after I shadow-game this tonight.

 

[Ankh-f-n-Khonsu]

Have you ever played with a SE/FE style game?

I've seen this question asked of SE detractors in other threads. Oddly, I've never seen one of them answer it.

 

[30+]

Glad to see more discussion.

@Yva!n, I forgot all about Mehemd's UU. Seems like a good alternative. Even though Nationalism cost like 3x as much as gunpowder, I would guess that having early UU with all that +25% attack could be of great use at this point in game. It would take the AI a while to get knights/musket giving you lots of time to exploit them.

@skall

Below my paragraphs will be some links to show close correlations of research path and research power of the same tech at the time by two different styles; SE/FE and CE. Additionally, you say that you are not in favor of CE/HE early game but in favor of different use for GS....My whole point is to gain the most research and in order to do that you must lightbulb. I will therefore continue showing benefits from 'bulbing' vs CE/HE because a distinction needs to be made where/why/ and how research is being attained, and why it is advantageous or not. You say you only question the use of GS, however, you are questioning much more than that. If you believe using more GS for academies is more beneficial than 'bulbing' then you must believe getting more research from cottages/resources/and academies in combination is a better choice. We are then no longer left with a comparison between "how to use GS" but a comparison of where will you get the research to make that choice more or less beneficial. More research from academies assumes you will have much much more commerce from cottages/luxuries making it more beneficial once you adjust the slider. So in fact you are advocating an HE/CE but I will try to help you understand the error in that thinking (at least when discussing 'bulbing' and SE/FE).

To wrap up first paragraph, all we can do is settle/bulb/or academy. That's it. If you aren't in favor of bubling or settling that obviously leaves academy. In order for the academy to be a better choice we need to have more focus on cottages (predominately) and luxuries, which of course is CE/HE.

I want to try and explain once more why lightbulbing is superior to any other form of research relatively early in the game. There will also be a CS comparison between SE/FE and CE @ around 1 AD. I will use 375 AD as my "big picture" example. I am using 375 AD as my example because that is when I finished Liberalsim. I had already settled one GS (which wasn't the best use for it....earlier post in this thread discusses settling vs academy) and 'bulbed' philo. Once CS finished I 'bulbed' paper/education and began researching Liberalism which would also allow me to choose a free tech, in my case, Nationalism, which incidently cost nearly 3000 beakers.

I will discuss how many total beakers w/out 'bulbing' I was bringing in at the end and show some comparisons, nearly exact replicas in time and research oddly enough.

So, by 375 AD I had 'bulbed' roughly 5000 beakers of research, AND, since I was first to Liberalism I got Nationalism which is an additional 3000 beakers (rounded up from 2,880ish). Are you beginning to see the picture? THE BIG PICTURE IS: 8,000 beakers of research from lightbulbing.....and this is not even adding the regular research from scientist/cottages/resources. If you made all academies you would be lucky to even gain 40 total research per turn at this point in the game. It would take you more turns than I can even count to match 8,000 beakers. You can even argue that you will be getting more and more cottages later making those academies more worthwhile, but how long would it take even then? Instead of 200 turns it would take 140, 120, 100? Not to mention you would lose the immediate benefit of 8,000 beakers NOW and the tech lead to wield how you saw fit.

Additionally I had approximately 2 cottages in each of my first 2 new cities with an additional 3 cottages from cities other than my capital, Carthage, or first 2 cities, 4 cottages in my capital, 4 cottages in Carthage capital (which I took over) and 6 scientist (civilization wide on average). When I was running all scientist in my capital of course I wasn't working the cottages but I did have 5 scientist specialist allocated and the 2 free from GL giving me 7 total (for 21 beakers + the one settled GS for 6 more= 28 beakers). So on average I was probably getting around 22 beakers + the 10 for being capital.

I would approximate my total research for civilization to be around 95-105 beakers per turn @ 1 AD. Nothing phenominal at this point for sure, but I haven't switched to pure caste in all cities at any point yet, plus, I still had 8000 beakers of 'bulbed' research by 375 AD.

On to the comparison. I have chosen to use Pete2006 Incan domination game. Now, Pete has 2 warlord Incan domination games, one being Emperor, the other on Immortal. On Pete's first Emperor game he had an unusually good start and was able to mine two Gold resources, the 2nd of which he popped from an already mined hill. I also had 2 gold sources available to be mined in my walkthrough, however, seeing how some people seem to think you can't get a decent research rate w/out help while using the SE/FE I refused to mine the gold. So, I am providing a link to his Immortal game. I chose this game in preference to the Emperor because I believe it is a more balanced comparison due to the fact there is no immediate gold being mined in my walkthrough or his Immortal. It's not %100 perfect, but I believe is still a very VERY good comparison.

On to my game first. You can see that I have exactly 13 turns to research CS.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/95301/23.JPG

The next link shows CS complete date:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/95301/28.JPG

Now onto Petes CS link.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=205997&page=3

Scroll down to the 1st image on this page; We can see that Pete has 6 turns left to research CS and is 1 turn short of reaching the halfway research point. This puts Petes total research time for CS at 13 turns. Pete finishes CS at 50 AD, only 2 turns after me. So we can see that we have researched the identical tech for the identical amount of turns at almost the identical time in history. So at this point in the game, both SE/FE and CE are researching at comparable rates.

Thus taking me back to my original statement: There is simply no way a HE/CE or Non Philo SE/FE can match the early tech rate of an economy which properly utilizes lightbulbing........once again meaning that a Philosophical leader incorportating lightbulbing will out tech anyone early game.

Bottom line: Early game, SE/FE (philo) using GS to lightbulb techs will match CE/HE baseline research (normal research per turn) and have GAINED 8,000 more total research from the lightbulb (Philo/Paper/Education/Nationalism[free tech]).

 

[Skallagrimson]

Okay, I played a shadow game of your walkthrough, and I have a few notes:

I wasn't able to hit Liberalism until 1130, but there were a few good reasons why.

1. I only had enough food/farms to flip one scientist in most cities, as I had a very dry map (who here said "nothing in Civ is left up to LUCK"???) Zero floodplains, and in two cities I could have had two scientists IF I gave up working a copper mine on a hill for one, and a horse pasture for the other, and I really didn't feel like it. 20 turns to build an axeman in my book is just *wrong*.

2. I was NOT able to trade for Mathematics. Nobody ever researched it before I had a GS willing to bulb it for me, so I burned a GS bulbing Math.

The way the game shaped up for me, it didn't make sense to go on aggressive conquests right away. I was culture-conquering neighboring cities, and there were tight alliances all over the map with no clear nearby loser as a good candidate to take down. I had good traderoutes all around, was doing pretty well on tech trades (except for mathematics and compass, had to bulb both of those). I was at my support limit for axemen so I switched over to some key wonders: Great Library, Pyramids, Great Lighthouse. I built the GL but the others just coined me, chaching, and that was pretty good money to keep the slider up.

At 1130 when I hit Liberalism, I slingshotted to Nationalism, was not able to trade for Music (nobody had it, by this point all the AIs were way behind in tech, which was good for potential conquest, BAD for trades obviously), so I went to Gunpowder.

As soon as I hit Gunpowder Montezuma attacked me, very stupidly as he was the lowball on points, only had a few tundra cities, and his "stack" he "invaded" with was a horse archer and a chariot. Initially he lucked out and my spearman died trying to poke 'em away, but my main city raid stack I'd been building up arrived and did a field battle that wiped 'em out the next turn, no losses for me (spear killed the wounded horse archer, axeman killed the chariot).

It felt just plain mean flattening Monty as easily as I did. Musketeers I used to replace archers (didn't have Feudalism right away but it didn't matter in this game), initially, and my sword-mace stack got a supplement from Cavalry soon enough. City, city, city, Capitulation. Thuggin' it.

I was all set to go conquer the other way, (Koreans), as they had some resources I coveted (wine, silver), when opportunity knocked in the other direction: Genghis Khan declared war on Mehmed, who was a major tech rival and I knew it would be good to take the #2 civ and drive it to last place. Long story short, a secont vassal lined up in short order. (Genghis annihilated one city, I took two, and Mehmed gave up after that.)

I saved the game at that point and sat back to analyze and write this up.

*Part* of what I said before--about not being able to lightbulb what you want, I'll admit was overly paranoid, but there was still the issue with the Compass and Math techs that burned 2 GSes for me unexpectedly, leading to a delay. You can't trade for techs, after all, that no one's researched. However, of the ones I could trade for, I got better deals than I usually get in other strategies, possibly because in my other strategies there's less of a bee-line concept, more of a spread out, get what's needed approach. Big up to that and I plan to incorporate it in my overall strategy.

I can see this strategy running into problems in civs aren't Gandhi though: fast workers and philosophical leader are key to improving up the terrain quickly and doubling the GPPs. Non-philosophical without fast workers, myehhhhh, it would be so-so compared to a normal early FE that converts to CE somewhere between Civil Service and Liberalism, and trades techs more for a rounding-out strategy rather than to support the beeline. IMO.

 

[Mutineer]

You wewre running to low dificulty.

There is not mach point to waste GS on cheap Mathematic, you can easy research it yourself.

 

[30+]

@ skall

Glad to see you tried a shadow game. My first question is gonna reiterate what Mutineer just said, or at least ask you, "what difficulty did you play?" In 90% of my Emperor games when I use SE/FE I am able to trade for mathmatics almost immediately upon researching Alphabet.

Also, 1100+ Liberalism seems extraordinarily long. Did you really research it first and get a free tech? I haven't run into too many games when the AI doesn't hit Liberalism way before that on Emperor (after all, I do play lots of HE games where I lose liberalism).

Also, maybe you should try regenerating the map a few times if you get truly horrible starting positions. I have never had a problem getting 2 scientist from my first 2 new cities. It only takes a single food plain/wheat/corn/pig/deer/sheep/rice/fish/clam/crab....doesn't seem too hard to find.

Even if I am delayed it never takes me past 700 AD to get Liberalsim (and that would be very late with my style). Even when I use a HE I typically reach Liberalism from 750-1000 AD (while self researching math/constr/currency/IW/MC/Machinery). Oh yea, any Philo leader is fine. Doesn't have to have to be Ghandi. Frederick and Peter have very good starting techs and have there own strengths too (as do all the Philo leaders).

Anyways, hope you learned something that you think you can use .

 

[cabert]

What I don't like is the need to play a philo leader.
I'm so glad that Aelf won an immortal game with Montezuma !
There are 24 leaders available.
I want to be able to win with any leader when I start a game.

 

[Mutineer]

Who sad you need philosofical leader? Not me. Philosofical let you do some fun stuff, that all. If you just stick to bread and butter you are fine with any leader.