SE help

[GenocideBringer]

Alright. So I started a game on Noble (agg. AI, improved AI mod, Marathon) and I'm having some issues. My cities had a lot of food resources and rivers, so I went for quite a few farms, giving me a lot of extra food. However, there was a problem. Because you can't get specialists until at least Writing, early game I was down a fair bit on commerce. Hell, I had to drop the slider to 20-30% with about 11 science/turn at one point because I wasn't pulling any commerce in with all the farms.

Eventually my economy started getting back on track, especially with Caste System and libraries in my cities. However, the initial economy was pretty bad.

I think part of the problem was that I waited quite awhile to get writing (although I got CoL pretty early). Should I go for libraries immediately if I want to do a more SEish economic strategy? How do other players make up for the almost total lack of commerce early on?

 

[wingsoverithaca]

you need some cottages to pay the bills, you should look at each city and decide whats best for it first

 

[GenocideBringer]

Yeah, the point was that most cities near me seemed ripe for farms. You think I should cottage up first and then replace those with farms in the right cities? Or just cottage up some areas period?

 

[Rubbaduck]

'Mids and a library in the capital. That's 12 beakers plus trade routes and whatever random commerce, enough to get to caste. A strict SE or CE is totally out of fashion now though, and every half decent civver follows the fashion.

 

[GenocideBringer]

Doublepost

 

[GenocideBringer]

'Mids and a library in the capital. That's 12 beakers plus trade routes and whatever random commerce, enough to get to caste. A strict SE or CE is totally out of fashion now though, and every half decent civver follows the fashion.

Yes, I am aware of this. My point was that most of my cities were more ideal for a SE, but that isn't compatible with early cities it doesn't seem like.

Out of curiosity, what made people stop strict SE/CEing?

 

[Belisar]

If an early city is food poor and needs farms, don't assign specialists.
It is highly inefficient to run specialists by using farms, you need 3 pop (2 farms and the actual spec.) for every single spec.

Run specs in high-food cities, other cities are better off cottaged (grassland, floodplains) or maxmized for production (green hills).

In general, don't try to use a rigid concept for a given setup, be flexible and maxmize the hand you have been dealt.

 

[GenocideBringer]

yes, I am aware of that. Let me spell it out since my meaning is getting missed.

I STARTED with a LOT of high food cities nearby, quite a few food resources, etc. I decided farming was the best course of action for most of my cities, but that route doesn't help your early econ.

 

[DaveMcW]

Do not feed specialists with grassland farms. That is very inefficient, even with early Representation.

Use food resources to support specialists.

 

[Iranon]

Commerce is secondary.

Unless I'm trying to collect wonders, I farm, farm farm and build/whip like a madman. Once I've snatched the 'mids, this becomes slightly less extreme and I tend to establish regular whipping cycles - whip down to the last good square, grow back supporting specialists.

Libraries help, but I favour doing stuff that aids production first... and then courthouses because those aid my economy even while I'm abusing it. Early libraries are built only when I need the culture really.
And I love Slavery far too much to give it up for Caste System.

CoL and Currency are turning points; I tend to go for Currency asap and try to get CoL just as I've grown into my natural borders/my economy is starting to REALLY tank and I need to recover.

 

[Tennyson]

Yes, I am aware of this. My point was that most of my cities were more ideal for a SE, but that isn't compatible with early cities it doesn't seem like.

Early on you're not using the whole BFC, so building a cottage or two for income is no worse than building a couple mines that you only occasionally use. So the issue isn't incompatibility so much as not trying to run before you can walk.

 

[Shadowkx]

If i want to go SE i start researching writing as i build my first or second settler. That way by the time you dropping the slider you can whip some libraries and assign specialists as the city regrows.

 

[BoxerGen]

Well Genocide,
You need to do some math in your head when you are planning an area to settle a city. Take a look at the surrounding tiles, think about grasslands for Cottages = Commerce. But you need to find a way that you can farm the city up to Optimal size (20 to work all tiles) and still have 50%+ Cottages or Mines (Commerce/Production cities)

You really shouldnt be basing every city with just farms, and going all out SE with every city. You are going to need at least 3-5 Production Cities that can double as commerce. 2 Really great Science cities can keep you FAR ahead of the AI.

 

[obsolete]

Yes, I am aware of this. My point was that most of my cities were more ideal for a SE, but that isn't compatible with early cities it doesn't seem like.

Out of curiosity, what made people stop strict SE/CEing?

Hmm, I would also like to know...

 

[MrBrown]

Research writing ASAP, and start running those specialists. It's as simple as that.

When I run SE, or something similar, I go for Bronze Working/Iron Working/Hunting/Archery or whatever is needed for decent defense, first. After that it's straight to Writing, preferably through Agriculture and Animal Husbandry.

This means that, around the time I get Writing, my research slider will drop to somewhere around 50%, or below if I'm not running Organized, didn't get Wealth from Huts, or whatever.

 

[Rubbaduck]

Yes, I am aware of this. My point was that most of my cities were more ideal for a SE, but that isn't compatible with early cities it doesn't seem like.

Out of curiosity, what made people stop strict SE/CEing?

I guess someone noticed that it's suboptimal and got his or her word out well enough.

 

[Iranon]

Depends on what you mean by 'strict'. When I'm optimising my economy for specialists, I will still build cottages on non-irrigated grassland - no reason for letting perfectly good land go to waste.
Also, the first few Great Specialist require rather little investment for a decent effect - if I don't have many wonders, I will assign a few scientists even if my plan is to cover the world in cottages.

I prefer to clearly opt for one or the other (and recently, I seem to do best with farms + specialists + slavery whipping cycles) in order to get the most out of my civics/tech path, but there is no reason to be too dogmatic about it.

 

[Bleys]

Out of curiosity, what made people stop strict SE/CEing?

I think many players have taken the best of both worlds and run a hybrid. Consider that a sliding scale, where mass-cottaging is a CE and mass specialists is an SE. Even with an SE, most players will cottage their Capitol, to take advantage of Bureaucracy when it comes online, and even in a CE, most players run a GP farm, or run scientists early to maintain reasearch while using the slider to pay for expansion.

 

[tenera]

I tend to run a hybrid economy just because I find it easier. In a hybrid economy you're generally going by a city-by-city basis, and focusing on making the most of one particular city, rather than working on milking an overall scheme/plan. Feels a bit more flexible.

One thing you can do to help with the early economy, is pick out one of your early cities (of the first three, or so, preferably) to be a heavy commerce city. I usually end up with around 2 of these depending on map size and what sort of terrain I'm dealt (usually the capital, and third city (with the second being a production city)). Setting your capital up as a commerce city early on can help carry your empire while you wait on your other cities to start pulling their weight, can really help a lot, and this only gets better once beuracracy becomes available.

If you want to run a straight SE economy, Writing is definitely a priority so you can get the scientists up and running quickly. Also, unless you plan on making b-line for Caste System, I wouldn't go farm crazy, but rather strike a balance betwen farms/food-resources and production and/or commerce improvements. Even then, there's a good argument for keeping Slavery, particularly while you still have fledgling cities. A couple of good food tiles is enough to give you strong growth early on and facilitate frequent whipping.

One other thing I like to do is saving some forests (in even numbers) for both health benefits and lumbermills in the future and some river tiles for watermills (with levee's!). I find this very helpful in the late game where both these tile improvements become quite powerful (and can turn a low prod. city into quite the manufacturer), as Slavery becomes less potent due to increasing unit/building costs and the slower regrowth rates of your larger cities.

 

[vicawoo]

It's easy to get writing early if you don't tech ironworking, religious techs, etc