SE still viable under Warlords?

[Load]

I just finally got around to giving Warlords a try (2.08 patch applied).
I've been playing pretty extensively over the past few months with the early specialist economy and Pyramids + GL gambit. My typical game settings are Archipelago, huge map, 16 civs, Emperor, Marathon speed. It's certainly a challenge but I've got it down pretty well.

So here I am giving it a go under Warlords. I have a great opening. Some easily defensible land, almost no barb worries, very high food resources and great production in my capital. It's definitely one of the best starts I've had. I use my standard opening of warrior->worker->worker (chopped)->settler(chopped). Research order is BW, Masonry, Archery, Wheel, then Literature beeline. I manage to grab about 4 nice cities before being blocked off by the AI. 1 great production city, and 2 perfect labs with a mine and 2 high food tiles each. I completed the Pyramids around 1000bc, which isn't too bad for no Ind civ and no stone (copper was also discovered in the capital, perfect!). I whip my libraries and bring my scientists online very quickly. With a 12 turn research speed for Literature on marathon things were looking great. So my GE pops, I grab the GL, a GS pops shortly after and I build the Academy. I'm now pulling down 103 beakers/turn around 100AD and looking at 13 turn CoL. That's excellent! Except there's 1 small problem. I'm way, way, way behind in tech! Mansa my neighbor has just adopted Vassalage and is now rolling around with Longbows. Hannibal even has MC, CoL, etc. and will likely be macing soon. I don't even have iron working or construction yet. ouch!

So is this strategy even viable anymore? Also I'm trying to think about a CE. Even if I beelined pottery and cottage spammed my life away how would I keep up with that? That's around 200-500 years earlier tech than anything I've ever seen under normal Civ IV. Any advice appreciated!

 

[Galileo44]

Welcome to CFC!

On your questions, it is true that the AI will expand better and faster with 2.08. It incorporates some of Blake's Better AI (see Warlords or Modding forum for the full threads). These make the AI much better in terms of city placement, and it helps the AI not ot stagnate. You are experiancing doing the same level as Vanilla, but the AI is better. With these changes, the levels do not match up the same way. (Warlords is harder)

 

[Load]

Thanks for the reply. I did read about the faster tech'ing and new AI, but this feels unbalancing at least on marathon speed. I play marathon because I actually like to use my units before they are obsolete but now it feels as if I'm playing on quick speed. It seems to be moving much too fast even for the AI. For example, Mansa had only achieved 20% culture defense in most of his cities and had not yet even managed to build walls yet was rolling in the longbows. That's a rather extreme change for marathon speed. Perhaps this game is just an anomaly or should I downgrade to prince?

 

[futurehermit]

That's too late for CoL. You want it around 500BC-1AD.

 

[carl corey]

SE is still viable and there are threads around here talking about it. Notice however that in 2.08 the Pyramids also got more expensive (500 hammers). Combined with the better AI you're very unlikely to get them on level like Emperor. And, as you noticed, even if you get them you might get too much behind the improved AI. Did you remain with the early 4 cities? Even with Pyrs and GL you will likely not be able to compete due to population. Plus, Mansa is probably the best techer out there.

I'm not sure about the walls problem as I play on Monarch/Normal and the AI doesn't build too many walls.

Try to go down to Monarch for now, see how that goes. No need to go to Prince I think if you were comfortable on Emperor before the patch came out.

 

[Load]

Since I usually play large maps with 16-18 civs for the diplomatic possibilities I am usually locked in early with a small number of cities. With aggressive queue swapping, chopping and whip overflow I'm usually doing well if I can build 3-4 early cities while still getting the Pyramids. On standard civ emperor I've been able to maintain a tech lead with as few as 3 cities running an SE. I would then use my tech lead to manipulate world wars and gear up for attack around mace time. Clearly that's not going to work anymore in this scenario. It looks like I'll either have to lower the number of civs so I have more land access or be an early warmonger .

Having given up on that game I opened up WB to see what Mansa was doing. Out of his 11 pre-renaissance (some pop 20!? cities) he built 32 cottages and 4, yes -4- mines total. He was also whipping nearly ever city for more science and wealth buildings with almost no regard for military. I then declared war on him just to see what he would do and he did nothing. He couldn't move troops out of his cities since he was running under HR to support those large pops and he simply had no production to build any troops. Very strange.

 

[Load]

hrm. I just ran through 4 quick openings at Emperor/Normal speed. I was able to pull down the pyramids 200-400 years ahead of schedule in all cases. Only lost them once (completed on the same turn as the AI and the AI won the coin toss - I forgot to whip the last bit). The difference between marathon and normal is huge. I usually end up eating around 5 barb warriors and another 5 archers or so on marathon speed before I can complete the pyramids. Unless of course Mr. 2500BC barb axeman shows up and eats 5 of my 18 turn build per/30 turns of unhappiness whipped warriors. In contrast on normal I only saw a few barbs. Having to sac pre-chops coupled with queue swapping of the pyramids just to get archers or warriors out isn't uncommon for me at marathon speed. We're just talking about staying alive here, not even expansion. I looked around and didn't see much about marathon speeds unique issues in relation to running a specialist economy. Most seem to be playing easier levels or faster speeds, which is a huge difference. Am I going to have to spend the next few months banging my head on the keyboard trying to figure out a new strategy or has someone else done this at marathon speed?

 

[DaveMcW]

There's nothing special about marathon speed, except maybe barbarians. Use fog-busters to keep them away.

You will need to trade on Emperor if you want to keep up now.

Oh, and I strongly suggest you have a couple cities covered with cottages.

 

[PMabey]

I'm no SE expert, but i do know that sometimes the hammers wasted on building the pyramids can be used to build axes to attack your neighbour. More cities = more scientists (w/o reperesentation) = better than fewer cities WITH representation.

Also chopping pre-mathematics is not very helpful. I almost never chop workers/settlers anymore. Unless i'm exp/imp because the hammers on worker/settler are increased by those traits.

Go to the succesion game forum and look for a thread started by acidsatyr - that'll answer your question.

 

[Ruler]

Nothing can't beat cottage powerhouses but SE can do a decent job on Archipelago maps from my experience but if you are playing on Emperor and you start with 4 cities on Large map prepare to do an axerush.

 

[PMabey]

^^^"nothing CAN'T beat cottage powerhouses" im sure there's a lot of things that can't beat cottages. I think you mean - nothing CAN beat cottage powerhouses.

 

[Load]

I usually do tech trading pretty extensively. Previously I could backfill most techs after Alphabet, but now I'm lucky to get a few . I'll give early cottage spam a try for a hybrid economy or go with the tried and true early axe rush. Delaying chops until math will pretty much abort any ancient era wonder chances in my experience unless you are Ind or have stone/marble close by at least on marathon speed as explained in detail below. Of course I could give up pyramids but why have them in the game if you must sacrifice yourself to get them

A big issue is that on marathon speed not everything is scaled out linearly. The available land tiles and movement speeds have not changed but tech research on marathon is glacial. A 300% slowdown over normal speed. That would be fine if everything else scaled @ 300% but that's just not the case.

For example the hammer cost in workers and settlers is 120 and 200 respectively on marathon. A difference of 200% compared to normal. This is a rather severe skew compared to tech speed. The net result if you are not extremely careful in your tech selections is either too fast expansion and a stifled economy or workers with nothing to do for very long periods of time. As a matter of fact unit costs in general are skewed with regards to tech speed (only a 200% hammer increase). This means under marathon you can dig yourself into an economic whole by overbuilding at a much faster pace. Also an even more significant result of this is the AI will REX like crazy and claim significantly more land and resources compared to normal speed. This is easy to see by starting games and ticking the clock 2000 or so years. Open up WB and you will see that the AI will have around 25% more cities/land/resources than at normal speed. This effect starts to compound rather quickly into a monster after that. If the new AI is now a more efficient cottage spammer and you couple that with the faster REX capabilities under marathon that would explain in part the rather fearsome tech research speeds I'm seeing.

Although things like wonder costs scale @ 300% (500 hammers for pyramids vs 1500) and forest chop return (20 vs 60), the number of turns for chops scale at 150% (4 turns vs 10). You then take into consideration worker turns lost from the 1T of movement into the forest which does not change based on speed. That's a 20% productivity loss on normal speed while only a 9% loss on marathon. The end result is a much more effective forest chopper on marathon. That would seem to indicate easier wonders by clear cutting but unfortunately that's not the case. With the AI REX'ing so much faster it's even more likely to have the available cities and resources to finish them before you.

Also you can't understate the barb problem. It's easily the most significant factor by far. On normal speed the amount of time it takes a barb to walk from one of your cities to the next you can completely research an entire tech like archery. In contrast on marathon, a barb can pillage every improved tile and road in your empire, raise your 2nd city and be standing on the doorsteps to your capital before you've managed to even research archery. This has a significant effect on early tech selection if you want to live. For example playing Peter if you research BW first and find no copper anywhere near you have roughly a 1 tech research window before you will need to grab archery. Every other time I try and slide in an additional tech between BW and archery I find myself getting completely owned by barbs. At the least my tile improvements I was able to build with my extra tech destroyed especially under Warlords. I may not die but I'll end up severely stifled at times with an AI or 2 already REX'ed to my 2nd or 3rd city borders. Peter even starts with hunting and mining!

Of course, fog busting is essential with barbs. However keep in mind the cost of such things as a warrior is 200% higher on marathon yet the base tile yield for hammers has not changed. You really begin to pray your units don't die as they will be sitting out there all alone for quite a while. Also should you decide to break out the whip things can get exponentially bad rather quickly. Unhappiness is now lasting 3 times longer and your cities are growing back 300% slower. There's a lot that can happen in the 30 turns you are waiting for the whip to wear off and population to recover. This is the reason I usually chop warriors/archers out in my 2nd city as there's just no time to lose waiting for them to build.

I believe all of these things just make for a completely different game under marathon requiring some unique strategies.

 

[danieldaniel]

I play with very similar settings as you do (marathon/emperor/large, usually Pangea, sometimes archipielago (sneaky continents)). I don't think you'd be better off if you were running CE, as SE is much better for the early game IMO, unless you're financial.

With the new AI, financial leaders like Mansa or the korean guy tend to sky rocket early on, but don't worry, you will catch up later. It's better to befriend them in the beginning, and maybe you will be able to trade some tech with them. If you are running CE it should not be difficult to lightbulb Philosophy, and then trade it for other techs.

Whatever economy you're running you will need more than four cities. You say you had copper in your capital, I think all those hammers you used to build the great pyramid would have been better spent in axes.

I think 6-8 cities before middle age is a good number, but it depends on the map, and I mean decent cities, useless city spots are better left for the AI.

There's a risk of economical collapse if you get so many cities too early, you have to be carefull with that. There's always a point in the game where i have to bring my research rate down to 0%-10%, and it looks like I will never get out of it, but then my economy starts to recover, I plant a few cottages here and there, I lightbulb one or two important techs, do some trade, wage some more war when cats/elephants come, and when I enter the middle ages I have 8 nice cities and I'm just a 5-6 techs away from the best AI.

Since I installed 2.08 I usually lose the liberalism race, but I don't even care, if you beeline to chemistry you'll be the first to get greanadiers, as the Ai usually tries to get riffles first, which is a much longer way. As your empire grows bigger, the tech gap between you and the teching AI's will get smaller and smaller, and you may even vassalize them.

One thing that usually helps is to set raging barbs on, especially in heavy land maps. If you know how to deal with barbs, you won't have so many problems, but some of the AI's will get severly crippled by barbs and will make an excellent target for your early axes

So in a few words, don't desperate if you see you are falling behind in tech, as long as you are doing good in the land grabing business, no matter how bad it looks now, you will cath up later. And if you get to the end and you are still behind, just build the internet wonder.

 

[Ruler]

^^^"nothing CAN'T beat cottage powerhouses" im sure there's a lot of things that can't beat cottages. I think you mean - nothing CAN beat cottage powerhouses.

You can say it either way in my opinion but who I'm to say but what I wanted to say if you speak about commerce cities if you have an option to make a cottage powerhouse enough of tiles, food and stuff you should always do so.

 

[Dnomal]

I also play on very smilar settings, Monarch, Pangea standard/large.

Personally my reccomendation is one leader Peter, a lot of people say that Lizzy is THE leader to play as, claiming you can choose between SE and CE.

But Peter has several things going for him, the new Expanisve allows for faster workers, along with early chopping, not to mention early infrastructure. The general tactic for SE economies is too get the Pyramids, but there is another method, (which has worked for me at least), build the great wall, this will keep out barbs, virtually sending a wave of enemies towards other AI, then another wonder, e.g stonehenge or the oracle, this will give you a lt of GP points, without having to worry about barbs running in on you.

Then when the GE arrives use HIM on pyramids, you might think that this wouldn't work, but the fact remains that if you are on Raging Barbs, and the barbs cant attack you they attack the AI, who divert a LOT of production to the miltary.

A SE econmy is deffinetly possible on Warlords 2.08 Marathon, but its a lot harder to acheive, persoally i wouldn't dream of trying a SE econmy unless playing a philisophical leader, maybe as Ind.

P.S, wipping on marathon is (in my experience) very risky, since if you whip archers to defend a city after you grow it you will have to pay the upkeep, and on Marathon money is everything, since cities take longer to grow, wealth harder to acheieve while the build time for units is on 200% compared to 300% of growth etc.

 

[Viperace]

The general tactic for SE economies is too get the Pyramids, but there is another method, (which has worked for me at least), build the great wall, this will keep out barbs, virtually sending a wave of enemies towards other AI, then another wonder, e.g stonehenge or the oracle, this will give you a lt of GP points, without having to worry about barbs running in on you.

Then when the GE arrives use HIM on pyramids, ...

But how do you guarantee that your 1st GP is a GE not a GP? The stonehege and Oracle will pollute your pool.

 

[Load]

I was just able to pull off the Oracle->MC->GE->Pyramids slingshot with Elizabeth on Emperor/Marathon and I'll certainly finish building the Colossus too. That's definitely a power opening, but it took me at least 20 tries. To say that it was difficult is certainly an understatement. I cleared Pottery research and the Oracle concurrently in 1735BC and the GE for Pyramids in 910BC. That's pushing your luck a bit in my experience on the Pyramids though. Usually the AI builds it between 1500-800BC. When I first attempted the slingshot I saw marble was available in the 2nd city. Ironically and as a testament to the Emperor/Marathon difficulty level the odds are either you or the AI will have built the Oracle long before you can even clear the prerequisite techs to hook up the marble to double Oracle's own production speed . Of course while attempting to pull this off you end up sacrificing all of your early expansion capabilities and really run the risk of bad barb attacks on top of some loss of your early research capabilities; although an SE can recover pretty quickly. I've attached both the winning save and the initial autosave if anyone wants to take a look. Settings are Archipelago, huge map, 18 civs.

 

[Dnomal]

But how do you guarantee that your 1st GP is a GE not a GP? The stonehege and Oracle will pollute your pool.

I'm 90% sure that when playing its time not GP points that determine what GP you get, if i build the great wall, and then 100 yrs later stonehenge i will have had 100 years of the great walls GE points.

Also note i said Stonehenge or Oracle, building both would be a wonder of production, and might mean you get a GE instead of GP.

This tactic does i'm afraid sacrifice a lot of early production that could be used on settlers, but then again you wont have to worry about barbas, you will have metal casting for the collosus, or even monarchy for happy citiers in the future.

Last time i played i managed i managed to chop/whip the racle and then a settler, although you will be at a miltary and land disadvantantage there is nothing to stop you from building up a military and conquring teh AI, which will bestruglling with all the Barba anyways, not to mention the possibility of seizing barb cities which often tend to have gerat production sites.