[BTS] Seeking advice: where to go from here?

[SittinDown]

don't feel bad for not thinking of those things. (like fog-busting, or unit combinations for rushes, or tech pursuit). they're only things you'd pick up either by reading the forum, and by actively trying to try out those things while playing. most of them are hard to notice on easy difficulty levels, but really show their value on higher levels. you'll get overwhelmed with barbs on emperor or above without fogbusting. on warlord you can often chance a lone settler into fog.

don't worry about where you are today. look at what tips you can put in your games a little bit at a time while still enjoying the game.

i was at prince around six months ago. i can beat emperor now most times. pretty much all because of advice from reading this forum then applying it in game, and posting a few detailed write-ups. (several people on this thread were quite helpful - thanks). (in September I played a lot to take the #2 score in the Hall of Fame on a epic duel settler cultural map, where I had to learn a bunch of completely different play styles compared to what works for pangea / normal / emperor / any victory. that was very fun, but then i burned out on Civ, and haven't played since [i'll be back]).

hang in there. read some advice. play your way, but find ways to put the advice to use in your games. repeat. make sure that you keep enjoying playing.

 

[Baba Yetu]

So you play marathan and you had 8 cities by what date?? Facts are useful. Playing peacefully on marathan must be painful in many respects..

In any case not really much I can help you with here. It's not difficult to expand to 5-6 cities by 1000bc. Normal start worker. Work a food resource. Grow to size 3-4 building 1-2 warriors. Build settler. Then decide on 2nd settler or another worker. The rest is down to how quickly you can build or whip more settlers.

Well, I've built my 8th city around 1700, I guess. Basically, I waited too long to expand and then it became too late for that: the Spain got on my way by the north and to the south the terrain didn't help (mostly tundra/snow). I am quite sure that I will find my next game a lot easier simply because I will try to rush expansion at the first rounds.

don't feel bad for not thinking of those things. (like fog-busting, or unit combinations for rushes, or tech pursuit). they're only things you'd pick up either by reading the forum, and by actively trying to try out those things while playing. most of them are hard to notice on easy difficulty levels, but really show their value on higher levels. you'll get overwhelmed with barbs on emperor or above without fogbusting. on warlord you can often chance a lone settler into fog.

don't worry about where you are today. look at what tips you can put in your games a little bit at a time while still enjoying the game.

i was at prince around six months ago. i can beat emperor now most times. pretty much all because of advice from reading this forum then applying it in game, and posting a few detailed write-ups. (several people on this thread were quite helpful - thanks). (in September I played a lot to take the #2 score in the Hall of Fame on a epic duel settler cultural map, where I had to learn a bunch of completely different play styles compared to what works for pangea / normal / emperor / any victory. that was very fun, but then i burned out on Civ, and haven't played since [i'll be back]).

hang in there. read some advice. play your way, but find ways to put the advice to use in your games. repeat. make sure that you keep enjoying playing.

Ty, I really appreciate your feedback.

 

[Gumbolt]

1700ad for an 8th city seems slow. Then again you are playing peacefully. Which means the minute the Ai box you in that is your city limit. Yes whip and expand more on aggressively on next game. Settling tundra and ice cities is not a good idea. There are ways to settle cities that force the Ai to settle elsewhere. Block key routes to the best sites where areas of land can be locked by culture.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I agree that peaceful REX (Rapid Expansion) is a key early game skill. It can actually rival an early rush. It has the advantage of settling cities where you want them, whereas the AI sometimes chooses poor city locations.

The early rush is often better though. Cities captured late enough will have on average 2/3 of all non-Cultural buildings survive. Cultural buildings are always lost. If your Culture in the City is dominant, all buildings except normal Cultural buildings will survive (this often means recapturing cities gifted to the AI or lost in battle, but it can mean a new AI city with your culture added via the Culture Injection mission). Unique buildings that provide Culture are treated as the building they replace (there is a 1/3 chance they are lost when the city revolts after capture, if your city culture is not dominant; otherwise they always survive).

 

[Baba Yetu]

Well, I am still having lots of fun trying to survive on my current game, so I couldn't apply this "rush expansion" hint yet. Meanwhile, any tips on corporations? I am still struggling with the concept and how exactly it works. BTW, did you like it or it is something that was weirdly implemented (just like spionage)?

 

[lymond]

I like corporations. It takes some planning to implement and utilize effectively. However, I only use it for space games. Sushi and Mining are the big ones.

Espionage it pretty good if you know how to use it. More useful on higher levels. You can even play a complete Espionage economy game - kinda fun and different way of playing, but not a top of thing to break records with. However, you can win quick Culture games with Espionage. HOF recently added an Espionage Culture VC type.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

The key to winning high level (Monarch through Deity) games is a very well executed early game. This well executed early game can consist of peaceful rapid expansion (REX), early rushes (chariot, axeman, swordsman and horse archer).

An option that should quickly allow one to advance through the skill levels is playing only the early game (to 2000 BC, 1500 BC 1000 BC, 500 BC or 1 AD as fits your goals). Goals can include a certain no. of cities, total population of one's cities, nearby areas of future city sites fog busted, contact with other Civs, strategic resource connection, a successful early rush, certain technologies completed, certain great wonders completed (The Oracle, The Great Wall, The Pyramids, Stonehenge, The Hanging Gardens, or other wonders that really help one the desired Victory Condition); other goals that seem appropriate.

The early game can be completed in 5-20% (depending on the stop date) of a game played to a victory condition. Thus, you can play 20 to 5 times as many early games as complete games. One's skill in the early game should advance rapidly as a result of playing so many early games in rapid succession.

Struggling in the middle game or late game is often caused by a weak or average early game. While it can be fun to try to complete games with a flawed early game, an it is in itself an important skill in GOTM for example, but one will never truly master Civ IV BtS with excelling in the early game. A strong early game will make the middle game and late game easier though still challenging (the challenge will become winning rather than merely surviving) and fun.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Corporations:

These occur somewhat late in the game. The best corporations are Sid's Sushi and Mining Inc. They are also the earliest available in the technology tree, Medicine and Railroad respectively. They depend heavily on the map type being played, especially Sid's Sushi (best maps are Big & Small and Archipelago). Sid's Sushi depends on Rice, and the three types of seafood; seafood requires water/sea maps; Rainforest map might have more rice, but usually little or no seafood. Mining Inc will be viable on most maps, since it requires Gold, Silver, Copper, Iron and Coal; most maps have a moderate amount of most of these (Silver in particular is available on fewer map types). Only one corporation resource needs be present to found and spread that corporation.

As lymod implied, corporations have limited effectiveness. He uses them only in Space Colony games (they can be extremely effective in Space Colony games, but some players prefer State Property). Sid's Sushi is optimal for Score (maximize score by any victory condition) and Time (maximize score at 2050 AD) games, since huge populations can be generated only via Sid's Sushi with appropriate maps.

If one's game goes significantly past Assembly Line, Mining Inc can help build Factories, Coal Plants and other buildings one needs in just a few turns. It also makes building Executives, that spread a corporation to other cities, easier.

Corporations have no effect while in State Property; they also can not be spread with State Property active (this is a possible defense against a Civ spreading a corporation in your cities that you don't want; closing borders is another option).

Corporations cause city maintenance to increase with city population size and especially as the number of the corporation's resources increase (one indeed usually wants to increase the number of these resources to increase the benefits). Courthouses are essential in reducing this maintenance. When spreading a corporation to a city without a Courthouse, build it shortly thereafter by either building it fast with Mining Inc. or whip it in 2t ideally with Sid's Sushi, the whip optionally enhanced by The Kremlin's -33% rush feature (= 50% more hammers in all cities like the Bureaucracy hammer bonus in the capital, except The Kremlin works only when whipping via Slavery or rush buying via Universal Suffrage).

It is also nearly essential to run Free Market with corporations, which provides -25% maintenance in cities with a corporation(s).

Only Great People, excluding Great Generals, Great Prophets and Great Spies can found corporations. They can found their corporation in any player owned city that has access to at least one of the corporation's resources; Corporations can not be founded with State Property active. For example, a Great Merchant is required to found Sid's Sushi and a Great Engineer is required to found Mining Inc. Getting the needed Great Person to found a corporation is sometimes difficult when it is a Great Engineer. Great Merchants, Great Scientists and Great Artists can be generated quickly via Caste System and a city with excess food than can support the required specialists. To generate the needed Great Engineer, players will often build The Pyramids, The Hanging Gardens, and Hagia Sophia in the same city with an Engineer specialist (enabled by an early Forge); Then adjust specialists in other cities so this will eventually generate a 100% Great Engineer. Other methods attempt several times to get a Great Engineer at much lower odds. The Great Merchant for Sid's Sushi can also be acquired quite easily by being the first Civ to complete Economics.

The best place to found a corporation is in a holy city with a shrine. This corporation HQ will receive 4 Wpt (Gold bars per turn) for each city with this corporation. It is optimal to build a Market, Grocer and Bank in the HQ city to gain +100% wealth (Gold bars) in the HQ. It is ideal to build Wall Street there for an additional +100% wealth. This results in 12 Wpt corporation income per city with the corporation. The Shrine's 1 Wpt per city with the religion is increased to 3 Wpt by these wealth multiplying buildings and Wall Street as well.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Espionage:

Espionage can be the strongest component to winning a Civ IV BtS game when used effectively. Most games that players give up on, can be won with effective use of espionage. The espionage economy is and arguably remains the strongest economy in Civ IV BtS. Even the new Wonder Bread economy can't beat it in ease of planning and range of effectiveness (how many games it can pull from the jaws defeat into a win).

An espionage economy optionally starts with building The Great Wall for a very early Great Spy. This Great Spy infiltrates the current or likely technology leader.

The espionage economy depends on the following technologies:

Masonry (for optional The Great Wall that generates 2 Great Spy Ppt)

Alphabet (enables Spy, the work horse of the espionage economy)

Code of Laws (enables Courthouse, which provides 2 Ept and 1 Spy slot)

Constitution (enables Jail, which provides 4 Ept, +50% Ept and 2 Spy slots)

Communism (enables Intelligence Agency, 8 Ept, +50% Ept and 2 Spy slots)

Democracy (enabled Security Bureau, 8 Ept, +50% espionage defense 2 Spies)

Of the above, only Alphabet is absolutely essential, because the Spy is essential for espionage economy to work at all. The Spy can perform a large range of missions that either benefits his Civ or degrades the target Civ in some way. The argubly best mission is stealing a technology. The next best is Influence Civics, which causes the target Civ to switch to one of your five civics, usually Slavery or Caste System to force the target Civ out of the Emancipation civic. Stealing wealth (gold bars) is another good mission, under certain circumstances (when the target Civ has few cities left).

Espionage is performed by a Spy moving onto either a target plot (to destroy an improvement on that plot) or a target city (to perform every other mission). The Spy must remain at this location at least one turn to perform an espionage mission (he can't move and perform a mission in the same turn). He will get a -10% espionage discount for each additional turn he remains stationary up to a maximum of -50% (similar to military unit fortifying). This is called the Stationary Spy (SS) espionage discount.

There are several other espionage discounts available:

-20% Trade Route espionage discount - you have a trade route with the target city.

-15% State Religion (SR) espionage discount - your state religion is in the target city and the target doesn't share that state religion.

-25% SR Holy City (HC) espionage discount - your State Religion is in the target city and you own the Holy City of your State Religion.

0-50% City Culture (CC) espionage discount - you get 50% for being virtually the only culture in the city - you receive 0-49% for having 0-98% of total city culture.

+50% to -50% Espionage Point Spending (EPS) - You get -50% for having generated/spent a 100 times more espionage than your opponent - You get +50% for having only 1/100 or less of the espionage than your opponent - 0% for equal espionage generation/spending - the discount is otherwise prorated by ratio of player espionage / opponent espionage, "-" values favoring the player and "+" value favoring the opponent.

There is also a +n% espionage distance penalty that ranges from 3-10% for a target city 3 plots from the capital to +50% for being as far from the capital as possible.

To get enough espionage points against a Civ to steal technologies and other missions, one should either use a Great Spy to infiltrate a Civ or set the slider 100% for many turns, in both cases ensuring the correct Civ is targeted in the Espionage window. For a pure Espionage Economy, the commerce slider will be kept at 100% indefinitely, once Alphabet has been acquired. Most games will be played with either or both Cottage Economy or Specialist Economy in addition to the Espionage Economy. For longer games, a hybrid Cottage Economy/Espionage Economy may be best, because the Specialist Economy loses its effectiveness past about Scientific Method where bulbing requires more than one Great Person and Great People are becoming increasingly hard to generate in the numbers needed to continue an effective Specialist Economy.

A modest amount of espionage points can be generated passively with the espionage buildings Courthouse, Jail, Intelligence Agency and Security Bureau. An effective passive espionage economy can be established by beelining Constitution, building Courthouses and Jails in all cities that can run the three spy specialists these two buildings allow. Running spy specialists normally provides 1 Bpt and 4 Ept, but with Representation that Constitution unlocks, a spy specialist produces 4 Bpt and 4 Ept! Adding three Golden Ages (including The Taj Mahal) can allow one to generate quite a high rate of Great Spy Points per turn as well as a moderately high Espionage rate.

Assuming a very close target city, the espionage discounts can be huge:
-50% for 5 turns of Stationary Spy
-20% for a Trade Route to the target city
-15% for State Religion in the target city, not equal to opponent's SR
-25% for State Religion in the target city and owner of Holy City
-50% for having the dominant or only culture in the target city
-50% for Espionage Piont Spending far exceeding your opponent

The ideal discount is -210%, but your distance penalty is at least +2% and EPS rarely exceeds -42%, so the best realistic discount is -200%, which actually better than it seems when the espionage discount is actually applied to get the final cost of an espionage mission. For example, stealing a technology can easily cost in espionage points 33% (1/3) of what it cost in beakers to research.

To get the -50% City Culture discount, easily get the SR discounts and reduce the distance penalties, the optimal espionage plan is ensure high culture in the capital and built one or more gift cities 3 plots from the capital. An AI Civ with three or fewer cities, located any where on map can be given a city located anywhere on the map. This is often the case early in the game; this is the time to give an espionage gift city to a distant Civ. Once a Civ has four or more cities, he will accept only gift cities than are 9.5 plots or less from his nearest city as long as the two cities are on the same land mass. If you want to give away a city beyond 9.5 plots on the same land mass, it is possible to built a chain of bridge cities that successively comply with the 9.5 plot limit until the desired gift city is also within that limit (all in the same turn). If the target Civ is on another land mass, your gift city must also be on that land mass or you need to arrange for the target AI to be reduced to three or fewer cities and then he will be willing to take a gift city anywhere on the map.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Espionage Summary:

To summarize, the espionage economy starts with a (lazy) beeline to Alphabet with an optional diversion to Masonry to build The Great Wall. Capturing The Great Wall early can also work. Next, one usually beelines Code of Laws for Courthouses and the single Spy specialist slot they provide. For a quick Espionage Specialist Economy, one can beeline Constitution, build Jails and run 3 Spy specialsts per city with improved non-slider espionage rates and several generated Great Spies. If the game will last much longer (we can already draft units via Nationhood since completing Nationalism), beeline Communism to build Intelligence Agencies and run up to 5 Spy specialists in each city; Also build The Kremlin for -33% rush cost and two Spy specialist slots. The Espionage rate will jump up as a result and the Great Spy generation rates jumps up a bit, stabilizes and starts to decline, because the Great Spy points needed for the next Great Spy continue to increase.

Note that Democracy was ignored, because its advantages are not as compelling as Constitution or Communism. Democracy's Security Bureau has 8 Ept and two Spy specialist slots which are both quite nice, but the building's best feature is its +50% espionage defense. Its value is close to useless, both because the AI does few missions against the player and those missions are usually trivial in effect such as a Poisoned Water Supply when one has enough surplus health, surplus food and sufficient food in the Granary to easily deal with it. On the other hand, The Statue of Liberty can provide a free Spy specialist for every city on the continent, which is probably worthwhile despite the cost of the wonder.

 

[SnipedSoul]

I also play huge marathon maps. You should definitely be expanding a lot faster. I can pretty comfortably get 10-15 cities by 1 AD if I make it a priority. I whip settlers like crazy and use the overflow to build libraries and military units.

As long as there is open land that isn't complete trash, I expand as long as I'm not losing money at 0% slider. Once all the good land is gone, I start worrying about buildings (except monument/granary/library).

You can pretty much force the AI to attack you if you completely block them in and close borders. They won't have anything better to do except build units. Eventually, they'll want to use them.

 

[Baba Yetu]

Well, the Ethiops (the most powerful civilization in the world) declared war against me and quickly crushed my armies bringing LOTS os paratropers, so my game is over lol. My next moves will be to install BAT/BUG in my computer (wish me luck, because I am a linux user playing civilization 4 through wine) and then to try a new game . So I will have the chance to try your advices. Thank you a lot. For you all, but specially for Sun Tzu Wu (who obviously had a lot of work writing all that stuff to me).
I've decided to play at monarch level at standard pace with early expansion and war (no marathon and no roleplaying as a peaceful leader for me this time). BTW, any reason why shouldn't I use larges maps than standard at my next game? Any final suggestion about the configuration (map type, civilization to start with, and etc) of my next game?
EDITED: BTW, what is better? BAT or BUG? If I install any of them, will I have issues trying to use other mods in the future? In the future, I intend to give to Realism Invictus a try, as it seems that kind of mod who cares about the things I mostly care in the game.

 

[lymond]

BAT is BUG/BULL plus shinies. It is stand-alone and has everything ready to go for you. Great mod. You might hit Lemon Merchant up with a question over in the BUG forum about compatibility with Linux. No clue myself.

BUG/BULL can be installed in Custom Assets (Single Player option) so is good for forum games here, as you can load any unmodded save. (with custom assets you don't actually load the mod it is just there).

Furthermore, BAT and BUG/BULL do not conflict so you can just install both. I use BAT for all my personal games.

As I mentioned earlier, you can play however you choose, but normal settings are good for learning if you want to pick up some basic stuff. I promise you that you have a few things to learn that will improve your play and enjoyment, then translate it to slower/larger games later.

You can't go wrong with normal settings and a Pangaea map for learn. More opportunity to practice early warfare and diplomacy, as well as city placement, worker management and teching/tech trading. Leave options as normal, but generally recommend turning off huts/events, but that is your call.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Smaller maps should be quicker games; means more games played per month. You will learn faster playing quicker to finish games.

It is also best to play settings most players play when you are looking for help.

Good luck, Baba Yetu!

 

[Baba Yetu]

Ty for all your advices. And BUG is really amazing. Even if I am still getting used to it, I wonder if I will ever be able to play with the default UI again lol.
But I guess that I am just too dumb because besides all your good tips I still suck at this game. I will attach the saved file of my current situation now, just in case you want to take a look. I am not sure how did I got so bad. I tried to expand faster, but at monarch the AI has a boost in science, so I quickly found myself way behind them. I know that I've commited the mistake of not building enough workers and cottages at the beginning, which has forced me to decrease science to 30%, but I don't think that it alone could explain such a bad game lol. What else have I done wrong?
I didn't give up this game yet because AIs are obviously inferior to humans at wars and I really love survival challenges, but even if I manage to not be immediatelly crushed, I doubt that I will ever be able to catch up the AIs in science anymore.

 

[ChocoGwaja]

Quite a while back when I was active under a different handle, I often posted my saves, wrote write ups of what I did, posted bunch of screen shots, and asked for advice. BEST way to learn from the community hands down, but it requires a bit of work with all the posting of texts and pictures. Still very fun.

Or you can take the less civilized option, and dare the community to play super annoying maps that you create. Quite a bit of players in the community fell victim to this, but in the end, there always was someone who could show you how it's done.

 

[ttfno]

There is a huge difference between destroyers and frigates, should be bigger​

Bare with me, as I tend to be rather blunt with new players asking advice with long histories, as described, of stagnant and stubborn playstyles.

First, to be clear, my general assumption is that you want to improve your game. I may be wrong but that is what I go by. Second I usually ignore advice regarding extremely late game scenarios, especially without saves or screenshots. I can assure you your problems date 6000 years ago.

So, my recommendation, once this thread is moved to the S&T forum, is post new games and get advice. I highly advise playing normal settings (not quick) . Civ IV is a highly satisfying game on normal settings plus you get the satisfaction of completing and winning more games. It's a very complex game with lots to learn.

As for DOWs there is a simple solution, move up in difficulty.

As for naval, not sure what maps you play but there are plenty of maps where naval is of import.

Lastly, if you open up to improving, trying different playstyles , and using more normal settings , the CIV IV Forums offer lots of fun stuff to get involved with, like GoTMS, SGOTMS, HOF, and the varied forum games going on over in S&T.

Base BTS has plenty of stuff to experience and learn without mods, although BUG/BULL and BAT mods are recommended for unaltered gameplay enhancements.

Actually it does alterngameplay. Shows how many cities your opponents have and their espionage and other stuff too.

 

[Lennier]

All the information BUG shows is available to the player elsewhere. BUG simply brings it to the front without altering the game rules or AI behavior.

For example, you can get the city count of an AI through the diplomacy screen by counting the number of cities listed as available to be turned over and adding one (for the capitol).

 

[ttfno]

All the information BUG shows is available to the player elsewhere. BUG simply brings it to the front without altering the game rules or AI behavior.

For example, you can get the city count of an AI through the diplomacy screen by counting the number of cities listed as available to be turned over and adding one (for the capitol).

Yeah but sometimes it does not show up in diplo screen. Plus what about espionage? Whip overflow.

 

[lymond]

Yeah but sometimes it does not show up in diplo screen. Plus what about espionage? Whip overflow.

Not sure what you mean be espionage. What BUG shows you can be seen or gathered from the Espionage Advisor.

Whip Overflow - very easily calculated in the city screen.

BUG just takes away the mundane work of calculating certain things in your head, by doing this for you.