Self Imposed Difficulty Settings

[Aristos]

Is everyone rushing a neighbor during the ancient era every single time?

Only when the AI abuses forward settling against me.

Or would that be forward outposting?

 

[DrCron]

I was asking about ancient era rush because I feel many times that invading during classical is just easier. During ancient I only take the "free" cities from independents and if the AI doesn't forward settle A LOT I can easily defend my 2-3 cities until I have a higher city cap in classical. Honestly, if I had to rush AI during ancient every time, even when Mycaneans are my closest neighbor, that would feel like a self imposed difficulty setting. Unless I get a bunch of free warriors from curiosities, but in my games I tend to get more science and influence from early curiosities. But maybe I need to review the way I'm handling my early fights.

 

[fortydayweekend]

I was asking about ancient era rush because I feel many times that invading during classical is just easier. During ancient I only take the "free" cities from independents and if the AI doesn't forward settle A LOT I can easily defend my 2-3 cities until I have a higher city cap in classical. Honestly, if I had to rush AI during ancient every time, even when Mycaneans are my closest neighbor, that would feel like a self imposed difficulty setting. Unless I get a bunch of free warriors from curiosities, but in my games I tend to get more science and influence from early curiosities. But maybe I need to review the way I'm handling my early fights.

Classical makes more sense if only because you can see what cultures they take - fighting the Mycenaeans might be ok but they could become Huns halfway through your war.

I feel like Ancient rushes are very situational & opportunistic, usually needs a mix of having territory demands, and being attacked but winning, getting a couple of warriors, and seeing a city open to attack.

 

[Taefin]

I’ve found ancient rush is actually pretty consistent at HK, even with my self imposed difficulty of starting T6 and advancing as soon as possible.

Personally I find the Mycenaeans to be the hardest to fight in ancient, as the AI production boost helps them get those EU up about as fast as anyone.

But what made the difference between ancient rush working and not working for me was getting my first city to three territories for the production, and then switching to unit production earlier than feels natural. I’ll usually put all pops in industry to get makers quarters and maybe the woodworking infrastructure, switching them to science sometime in there, (as soon as built time gets reasonable or anytime moving one to science doesn’t impact the current build time). Put all my curiosity money into buying out a turn or two of production, and switch to units as soon as I can build one every turn or two. Helps to get an easy second city off the IP, and I’ll build it up to where units are 3 turns. All the while I’m rushing to get my EU and then organized warfare the turn the war starts (often the AI will declare and it’s scrappy fighting to hold off the last few turns until OW). With 8-12 units, I can usually win against a decently well-developed AI before they get too many classical units. Though those times I end up fighting the now-Maya or Celts, who suddenly have 12-20 classical units get pretty rough (and quite thrilling!).

I intended to try a Mycenaean rush where I go right into EU after getting 2 EQ and fighting without organized warfare, but @Siptah snuck past my army and took my capital.

 

[DrCron]

Helps to get an easy second city off the IP, and I’ll build it up to where units are 3 turns.

So if you don't get the free city from IP, you just stay at one until conquest, right?

 

[Aristos]

Rushing in Neo, now that is something...

 

[Taefin]

So if you don't get the free city from IP, you just stay at one until conquest, right?

That’s generally what happens. If I manage to get enough influence I often add a second city after getting the first city to 3 territories. The cost for the 4th is so high, and without any ancient (and usually without and classical) wonders the capital is usually able to build so many districts (after creating my army) that stability can drop to 30 pretty fast before getting to imperial power.

Often I’ll stay in ancient until my I build my first holy site and my conquered city or two can put a turn of production on an ancient EQ in each region, especially if I have one that scales well like Babylon or Phoenicia (no scaling per se but the food and gold of their harbor is so good). Though I find that getting most era stars in ancient often gives me an early lead in fame, or enough to take the lead during classical, which as I’ve shared, usually makes me lose interest in the game, so sometimes I’ll jump into classical earlier (sometimes another AI does me a favor and invades with swords, helping remove that choice).

 

[Taefin]

Rushing in Neo, now that is something...

Haha, well it is; but I found it wasn’t as hard as I expected, especially if you can start fighting while they are in neo too. Also you can get 3 cities so fast with an early ancient war that you start as soon as you have beat their army. You take their capital, they get to found another capital for free (or have the influence to, IDK) but it’s undefended so you take it too, and have high enough war score to keep both. Immediately attach a second region to each and the game is over.

 

[Aristos]

Haha, well it is; but I found it wasn’t as hard as I expected, especially if you can start fighting while they are in neo too. Also you can get 3 cities so fast with an early ancient war that you start as soon as you have beat their army. You take their capital, they get to found another capital for free (or have the influence to, IDK) but it’s undefended so you take it too, and have high enough war score to keep both. Immediately attach a second region to each and the game is over.

It's a little harder on higher difficulties and overcrowded, and depends a little on random luck, as you need as many tribes as possible. I don't do it unless AI abuses me with forward outposting, and then only if I see the window of opportunity. The moment they switch to Ancient, which they tend to do sooner rather than later in Empire+, little chance with tribes against scouts.

 

[Taefin]

It's a little harder on higher difficulties and overcrowded, and depends a little on random luck, as you need as many tribes as possible. I don't do it unless AI abuses me with forward outposting, and then only if I see the window of opportunity. The moment they switch to Ancient, which they tend to do sooner rather than later in Empire+, little chance with tribes against scouts.

Definitely something I consider if I run across other tribes early. They attack, usually with one tribe at a time, and you pick that one off, next turn you find another. And then you switch to scouts, use a turn or two of 1-pt strength advantage kill the rest of their units, they advance and you take the two cities. When I have gone looking for trouble, by the time I find their city it’s too late. Having even one district built makes the city very difficult to take with 4 scouts.

 

[Aristos]

Just started one, normal map with 8 players and 30% landmass... RNGesus put 4 of us in one continent, so pressure is high... 2-3 territories max each, all claimed already, lost ALL my scouts in AI sorties around the continent (a first for me), so went Chinese lady with Z for the potent cavalry and research, building squad of 4 all from population growth and let's see what happens... this is Civilization (diff, not game, ha!)

 

[reddishrecue]

I just started one too but idk if its okay to keep going when you're getting double teamed by AI.

 

[fortydayweekend]

I just started one too but idk if its okay to keep going when you're getting double teamed by AI.

If you don't think you can beat them both, you can surrender to one (whichever is the biggest threat / has the least demands), then fight them one at a time.

 

[Taefin]

If you don't think you can beat them both, you can surrender to one (whichever is the biggest threat / has the least demands), then fight them one at a time.

Then just keep a casual eye on stability while you have a negative money balance, and hope you can extract enough from the loser to pay off the winner.

 

[Aristos]

...aaand I had my Civilization behind handed to me in a silver platter.

God it feels good to lose again in a 4X. Long time since I had that feeling of real "one more turn", the one that comes from adversity and defeat and the willingness to improve and come back "leading the pack" after being thrown to the wolves... Civ has lost that feeling, the same that it had for 15 years, the same that always made gaming so great in the 80's and 90's.

I guess I am a masochist.

So, yes, overcrowding and minimizing land mass adds another layer of difficulty that can wreck your game.

 

[Taefin]

Haha yes that sounds like a great game! I don’t know if it was the AI persona or just the Maya generally, but most of my defeats/near defeats have been at the hand of 4-6 sword-javelin stacks when I’m still running around in Ancient. One of them was my first harappans game and I had just captured a nifty city on a mountain on top of a hill and it was an epic defense racing to get my own swords. The only iron was in the besieged city l, so I had to get one turn out of battle to disconnect the region with iron and then train up enough units to fend off wave 2.

I’m really waiting for a strong AI encounter in medieval or early modern. The LoS restrictions have the awesome effect of equalizing the player and AI a bit when guns come up (only had one large battle in Victor) since you’re just trading damage back and forth with each other’s front lines, and maybe someone on a good cliff.

 

[Aristos]

I have no idea what type of cooked setups some people use when they claim this AI is weak. I am now in my second Civilization game, this time a Huge map with 10, still 30% landmass, and I found myself in a nice continent for myself... or so I thought. I was slowly claiming territory because I had the Hittites lead by none other than Agamemnon (future Huns.. ohoh) across a narrow channel on another continent for themselves... so I put my entire scout army 20+ units on the coast just on guard while I slowly build up my two mega cities and attach territories, because his AI is weak, right? So it would not invade in full force across a channel, right, because it's weaker than civ 6 AI, right? Yeah sure.

So the SOBs turn into Huns, and I still was confident that the AI would not dare.

Ha.

When they came in full force and disembarked, I put some resistance in the first round of the megabattle in the southern tip, 20+ scouts against 20+ hordes, in forests, so yeah, right... quickly decided that it was better to surrender the two claims they put on the southern tip (they never forgave me for claiming that nice stupid reef barrier), and to put myself as a vassal under their "protection".

First time ever I had to do something like this, ever, in any game. But I did, because in this game, that might be a sound strategy for survival and resurgence.

So, I took the Romans and their "throw me to the wolves and I will return..." which is exactly where I am now, and started building up with Zhou's cav and pretorians, trading my scout force for a huge army capable of challenging the rule of the SOBs.

Not even in my dreams could I build such a narrative in Civ 5 or 6 (I came close to this type of immersion in Civ 4, obviously).

We will see how the vassal gamble goes. I have the grievance and reached 100 WS; I have some 25 Zhou cavs plus 10-15 pretorians and spears, but they now changed to Mongols and are slowly upgrading.

Goal is to free myself and recover both southern territories and secure the continent.

Good luck creating such a story in Civ 6.

 

[Taefin]

Oh awesome! Rush those knights!!

 

[Aristos]

I haven't had this much fun since the end of the Civ 4 era.

In true Roman Fashion, the narrow disputed channel is now Canalis Nostrum.

A huge battle of liberation ensued in the wide open Algedi River Valley, where Roman corps took Mongolian cavalry by surprise, trapping them on the banks of the Algedi river, commanded by surrounding hills where 12 legions of Pretorian guards dug in supported by 25 Zhou legacy cavalry squadrons, facing down on some 15 Mongolian hordes. The hordes where vastly superior one to one, but there is strength in numbers, and in Roman formations. Slowly but steadily, and with heavy losses, Roman forces destroyed the Mongolian occupation forces one by one, and then proceeded to retake Algedi and Alula Borealis.

The blow to the Mongolian forces was unsurmountable, as they now lost control of the incense that was keeping their populace in "support" of the war of aggression and ensuing enslavement of such peaceful people as the Romans. The combined effect of the lost battles and ensuing skirmishes, plus the lost stability for lack of incense (which might have been the driver of their invasion of the South in the first place), was too much to endure for the Mongolians, and it was their turn to face shameful defeat.

In true Roman fashion also, Aristos demanded not only the end of the vassalization and the return of the stolen territories, but also the three territories that define the Northern region of the Mongolian continent, also rich in resources, but more importantly, making the dangerous narrow pass into an Imperial playground for the Legion commanders and their wives.

And so, Canalis Nostrum is born.

This was incredibly fun. The AI played well and to its strenghts, both as invading and victorious Huns, and then as occupying Mongols, but the Vassal gamble paid off and bought the Roman leader enough time to raise the huge army they needed to reconquer their territory, and then some.

I will probably lose this game, as the war has taken too much time and resources, but I don't care losing in this manner. And there is still 180 turns to play, so we will see. Win or lose, this was the best game I have played in the last 12 years, easily.

The future is bright for Humankind, I have no doubt.

 

[Aristos]

The more I think, the more I like it. That defining battle in the Algedi River Valley was just awesome. The picture shows how the valley is truly surrounded by high ground, and how an inferior force (although with more numbers, but still inferior to the Mongolian hordes) correctly positioned commanding that high ground can defeat the enemy. The Mongol army fought well, which is the cherry on the top, not blunders, not a big mistake, they did what they could given that they had to fight from the river banks up... they went for one flank, the weakest one on the South of the Valley, but that was where the Zhou legacy cavalry was concentrated, so numbers prevailed there even if the hordes did more damage overall. When they were weakened by assault after assault trying to get out of the valley, the Praetorians came down from the hills and finished them.

In civ 6, this whole battle would have been a hill across a river, and 2-3 units exchanging shots, one of them an archer or crossbow from behind, and the AI would have suicided its units against that single hill. How can some people try to argue that such a "battle" is better than what I just lived, is beyond me.

Good work, @Catoninetales_Amplitude et al, good work. I can only imagine what these moments will be like once you start adjusting the details, rebalancing, and making the AI even stronger. Kudos!