Serfdom vs Slavery

[DaviddesJ]

For the no Slavery case, they don't necessarily have "surplus food". Surplus food doesn't depend so much on city size. It depends on whether you have surplus food, period. In fact, a larger city will tend to have less surplus food, because the governor will work some mines automatically; heck, a human will work some mines. Production is a Good Thing(tm).

Everyone playing the same map has the same amount of food. Everyone will also have cities of almost the same size (Slavery will mean only -1 to happiness). The difference is that with frequent use of Slavery you'll rarely be at the case where you have a lot more food than you can use. If you never use Slavery, then your cities will often reach their happiness limit where you have extra food but you don't want them to grow any more.

For Slavery, IMO building a worker is a great thing to do while you're waiting for the city to recover from the whip happy penalty.

More usually you are just regrowing the several citizens that you used up when rushing. Sometimes, in cities with a lot of food, you can do that faster than the unhappiness timer for rushing again. But you're still spending much less time at this limit than if you never rushed at all.

 

[bardolph]

But don't you pretty much know that you're going to be going to war? In fact, you probably can predict almost exactly when you're going to war, too. Planning on success (which is not that hard against the AI), you thus know that you're going to capture "large stacks of workers". With that in mind, building less of them (and building more military or infrastructure) would be a good idea.

I don't always know when I'm going to war. Sometimes I'm attacked first. Also, if a civ capitulates to me, then I can defeat them without taking a stack of workers. However, if a stack of workers ends up stuck in a non-core city that's close to my borders, I'll end up getting them even if I didn't plan it (though sometimes I can just gift them back to my vassal afterwards). Sometimes, after building a big worker force, I discover a barbarian city with 6 workers.

Not everything can be predicted in advance.

Not sure I buy that. IMO:
--whipping (post patch) is awesome when the city is small and you have 2-3 food resources or farmed floodplains
--whipping is great when you have reached the health cap
--whipping is ok when you have reached the happy cap (if you do it intelligently)
--whipping is a losing proposition otherwise

"Whipping occasionally" is not something that I would think would be a good idea. Unless you know something I'm not thinking of. It's either whip as much as happiness and pop will allow, or don't whip at all.

When I say "whipping occasionally," I really mean "emergency whipping," such as whipping core buildings in newly-conquered cities, and whipping defensive units when under attack.

EDIT:

Everyone playing the same map has the same amount of food. Everyone will also have cities of almost the same size (Slavery will mean only -1 to happiness). The difference is that with frequent use of Slavery you'll rarely be at the case where you have a lot more food than you can use. If you never use Slavery, then your cities will often reach their happiness limit where you have extra food but you don't want them to grow any more.

Cities at the happiness limit can divert citizens to commerce and production tiles.

 

[Wodan]

Everyone playing the same map has the same amount of food. Everyone will also have cities of almost the same size (Slavery will mean only -1 to happiness). The difference is that with frequent use of Slavery you'll rarely be at the case where you have a lot more food than you can use.

More usually you are just regrowing the several citizens that you used up when rushing.

I think you and I are on totally different pages. Same book, but different pages.

A small city will almost always have more surplus food than a large city.

Now, we have to define what "small" means.

Each peep eats 2. Let's assume that the highest food tiles will be worked first. That's probably a good assumption as long as some buttons aren't pushed on the city governor (such as the hammer button). We'll also assume no specialists will be worked (though that isn't necessarily a good assumption, because some people such as that Wodan guy often run specialists while whipping ). Anyway.

So, adding an extra citizen adds X food, and subtracts 2 which the citizen eats himself. With each extra citizen, X gets smaller (see assumption above). At some point, X becomes 2 (or even less than 2). That is the point where the city stops having more "surplus food" than the smaller city.

Now, to me, both of these cities are "small." Both are within what I would call the "optimum" range where you want to be whipping. Cities over that point are where the serfdom city is going to be running, liketysplit. And that's what we're talking about here.

If you never use Slavery, then your cities will often reach their happiness limit where you have extra food but you don't want them to grow any more.

Well, sure. At that point, you start to work other tiles to optimize your city (e.g., switch to mines, or plains cottages).

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

Sometimes, in cities with a lot of food, you can do that faster than the unhappiness timer for rushing again. But you're still spending much less time at this limit than if you never rushed at all.

WTH? You lost me, David. Let me think out loud.

Spending much less time regrowing citizens than if you have never rushed at all.

Sorry, I still don't get it. Must be the ridiculous helmet.

Wodan

 

[Wodan]

I don't always know when I'm going to war. Sometimes I'm attacked first.

Oh come on. He's Monty. He makes a couple of outrageous demands; you say no. You're different religions. He's higher on the power graph. What more do you need?

Also, if a civ capitulates to me, then I can defeat them without taking a stack of workers.

Again, fairly predictable. First off, is capitulation even an option yet; I don't remember what tech reveals it but it's halfway down the tree, that's for sure. Secondly, they will almost always accept capitulation, so the real question is "Am I going to offer it?"

However, if a stack of workers ends up stuck in a non-core city that's close to my borders, I'll end up getting them even if I didn't plan it (though sometimes I can just gift them back to my vassal afterwards). Sometimes, after building a big worker force, I discover a barbarian city with 6 workers.

Not everything can be predicted in advance.

Despite what I said above, I agree. Once in a hundred games you might end up where your advance planning comes to naught. What did you waste? A few turns building workers of your own. Hardly the end of the world.

What we're talking about here is planning ahead. Knowing what civics you're going to be running, and figuring out how many workers you'll need, and where you're going to get them from. Nothing you've said makes me think my points were not valid. That is: I think most people probably could benefit from more planning in this regard. Me included.

Nevertheless, no amount of planning can cover all contingencies. Pointing this out doesn't make my points invalid.

When I say "whipping occasionally," I really mean "emergency whipping," such as whipping core buildings in newly-conquered cities, and whipping defensive units when under attack.

Oh, okay. Well, sure. Nothing sucks more than getting attacked and NOT running slavery OR Univ Suffrage OR Nationalism.

And yes, slavery and US both allow rush buying in newly-conquered cities as well. Totally agreed. In fact, I would go so far as to say that ANY domination or conquest bid should be running either one of those two civics.

Wodan

 

[bardolph]

Oh come on. He's Monty. He makes a couple of outrageous demands; you say no. You're different religions. He's higher on the power graph. What more do you need?

My first game with BetterAI saw a sneak attack by a friendly Washington, same religions, no demands. Same from Cyrus. Okay, I would have been better prepared against Washington if I had said to myself, "hmm... why's he building those giant stacks of cavalry?" But, you live and learn.

I will say that defending against a leader who has both a larger army and superior technology is thrilling, to say the least. Of course, had he been a human player, I would have been toast.

Again, fairly predictable. First off, is capitulation even an option yet; I don't remember what tech reveals it but it's halfway down the tree, that's for sure.

Feudalism. Same tech as Serfdom, actually

Despite what I said above, I agree. Once in a hundred games you might end up where your advance planning comes to naught.

Or any multi player game.

Nevertheless, no amount of planning can cover all contingencies. Pointing this out doesn't make my points invalid.

I wasn't trying to refute your points. I was just saying that it's not hard to end up with too many workers.

 

[popejubal]

The case for Serfdom:

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned is Spiritual. (It may have been mentioned, but if so, I wasn't paying attention.)

If you are spiritual, you can spend a fair amount of time in Serfdom. The only real penalty for Serfdom is the fact that you can't whip away "excess" population for the production that you need right now.

If you are Spiritual, you can Serf for a while and then whip a couple of times in 5 turns. Go back to Spiritual while the unhappy bits wear off and then whip again when the whim strikes you.


Can I take this moment to mention the fact that Spiritual is my favorite trait? Thanks.

Spoiler :

Spiritual is my favorite trait.

 

[DaviddesJ]

I think you and I are on totally different pages. Same book, but different pages.

I think we're not even on the same planet.

 

[Wodan]

I think we're not even on the same planet.

Well, yeah. You do live in California.

Wodan

 

[jesusin]

Well, sure. At that point, you start to work other tiles to optimize your city (e.g., switch to mines, or plains cottages).

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

That sounds terribly inefficient.
Stop working the pigs and work a lousy workshop instead? No thanks, give me the excess food and I will whip something useful out of it.



I see Serfdom as a way to increase the value of Spiritual.

 

[Wodan]

That sounds terribly inefficient.
Stop working the pigs and work a lousy workshop instead? No thanks, give me the excess food and I will whip something useful out of it.

Pigs is a poor example. You would stop working farms and switch to something else.

Here's my tactic: first couple of improvements are almost always farms. Helps get city size up faster. If I'm running (or planning to run) slavery, it helps regrowth. If not, I get to city max sooner, which means more commerce etc. If running serfdom, that's the point where I stop working the farms and look to other tiles.

Wodan

 

[jesusin]

I understand your point of view now, Wodan. Sounds much better.

 

[Lord Sandwich]

I've been playing large Terra maps recently. Right around the time I snag feudalism, I seem to always find myself expanding into enormous jungles. Serfdom comes in handy there.

 

[Wodan]

I've been playing large Terra maps recently. Right around the time I snag feudalism, I seem to always find myself expanding into enormous jungles. Serfdom comes in handy there.

That's for sure. Not just Terra, but all maps. The AI avoids settling in jungle for the longest time, even if there are resources there.

Wodan

 

[UncleJJ]

I have never had any real problems developing a city in the jungle. Three workers are sufficient to clear the jungle and improve the tiles. I run Slavery and whip away the excess pop in sympathy with the rate of jungle clearance, to build vital buildings. My cities pop always have enough good tiles to work as the city gradually grows in size.

I suspect that although the same three workers would clear the jungle and make tile improvements 50% quicker under Serfdom that would present development problems for the city as it would have a larger population but less infrastructure. It is arguable whether Serfdom would make the city more productive in terms of output (measured in terms of beakers, gold minus costs, culture and hammers invested in units / missionaries / workers ). That would depend on the tiles available and type of economy being run.

 

[bardolph]

I have never had any real problems developing a city in the jungle. Three workers are sufficient to clear the jungle and improve the tiles. I run Slavery and whip away the excess pop in sympathy with the rate of jungle clearance, to build vital buildings. My cities pop always have enough good tiles to work as the city gradually grows in size.

I suspect that although the same three workers would clear the jungle and make tile improvements 50% quicker under Serfdom that would present development problems for the city as it would have a larger population but less infrastructure. It is arguable whether Serfdom would make the city more productive in terms of output (measured in terms of beakers, gold minus costs, culture and hammers invested in units / missionaries / workers ). That would depend on the tiles available and type of economy being run.

I think it's vital to have hammers available for production for ANY growing city. Now, slavery can be a good source of hammers, but mines, forests, workshops and watermills are also good hammer sources, and are more quickly available when you are running Serfdom.

 

[mrt144]

i think that we arent making some assumptions here.

1. we are all assuming that we have been running slavery from its inception.

2. we are also assuming we have produced some number of workers up to this point.

3. we assume that we have also built some culture buildings and or granaries by the time you discover feudalism.

taking these assumptions into account i think a big part of the riddle is whether the stuff you are whipping outweighs the loss of pop. think of whipping 2 people to build a library. assume we are running 100% science and its completely efficent. with this in mind is a city with 24 commerce and no library producing more sience than a city with 20 commerce and a library? (whipping the library gains 1 more beaker)

ill think this through some more later.

i get the feeling whipping is valuable when you have a set infrastructure around the city and are whipping to magnify science or commerce.

also i think an x factor is the invaluable ability to rush things for unexpected things.

 

[Wodan]

UncleJJ, sounds like you're implying you have 3 workers per city in your empire? That seems like a lot to me.

Regardless of your answer, this goes back to my earlier point. IMO if workers are improving tiles in the empire faster than the population needs it (whether under Slavery or Serfdom, doesn't matter), then the empire has more workers than it needs (however it got them).

Whatever the case, serfdom allows the empire to keep "worker pace" with slavery. Slavery you don't need many improved tiles, because you're whipping pop away. Serfdom you need more improved tiles because cities keep growing, and the workers are improving faster. Nice synchronicity of design.

Wodan

 

[UncleJJ]

I think it's vital to have hammers available for production for ANY growing city. Now, slavery can be a good source of hammers, but mines, forests, workshops and watermills are also good hammer sources, and are more quickly available when you are running Serfdom.

I guess we are thinking about different conditions and probably a different stage of the game. I'm thinking about a real jungle city with at least 10 jungle tiles and early in the game soon after Iron Working is discovered. Jungle tiles are all grassland and grassland hills IIRC, with some specials like rice and gems. The hills might be there if you're lucky but the workshop and watermill are weak options even if available at that time. They do become better options with later techs and I sometimes turn farms into watermills then.

After Civil Service chain irrigated grassland farms are the best way to make hammers using Slavery in most jungle cities unless they have a surfeit of special food tiles. As a rule of thumb at a pop size of 10 a mined grassland hill is equivalent to grassland farm in terms of hammers per turn with both giving a rate of 1.5 hammers per food and hence a net gain of 1.5 hammers per turn a farm or mine is worked. For smaller city sizes farms are more productive and over size 10 grassland farms gradually become worse than mined grassland hills at hammer production as the food cost of re-growing population rises. These food to hammer convertion rates do depend on the details of how and when the whipping is done but the rule of thumb is sufficient for estimating the productivity of a city driven by farms. Early in the game city sizes are often limited to about 10 until happiness resources and techs become available later so farms are strong then.

But to make farms produce hammers you need Slavery and Serfdom will make a jungle city without lots of hills nearly useless for production. You could use food from farms to run specialists or you could cottage over the grasslands but that might not be what you want to do. Unless I have a spiritual leader Serfdom restricts the city development options too much for me... but I am a confirmed Slavery advocate

 

[UncleJJ]

UncleJJ, sounds like you're implying you have 3 workers per city in your empire? That seems like a lot to me.

No, only 3 workers if I want to develop a city with a lot of jungle at a decent rate. Other cities only get an average of about 1.

 

[bardolph]

taking these assumptions into account i think a big part of the riddle is whether the stuff you are whipping outweighs the loss of pop. think of whipping 2 people to build a library. assume we are running 100% science and its completely efficent. with this in mind is a city with 24 commerce and no library producing more sience than a city with 20 commerce and a library? (whipping the library gains 1 more beaker)

We need more information before this scenario becomes a useful example.

What is this city's current population?
What is this city's maximum population?
What tiles are currently being worked by this city?
What tiles are currently available to this city?

Comparing a hypothetical (20 * 125%) to (24 ) is not useful unless you know what kinds of tiles yield that commerce, and what other tiles could be worked in their stead.

While I agree that libraries are useful buildings, my point still stands that such buildings can be built using hammers instead of the whip.

i get the feeling whipping is valuable when you have a set infrastructure around the city and are whipping to magnify science or commerce.

also i think an x factor is the invaluable ability to rush things for unexpected things.

Agreed. That "X Factor" can be quite important.