SESN01 - The Poor Warmongering Fools
- Thread starter SesnOfWthr
- Start date
M60A3TTS
Ex-treadhead
Got it. I'll look it over and see what we can do.
M60A3TTS
Ex-treadhead
The save
Pre turn assessment, other 4 civs have 1-98 gold, and are up wheel and myst. We have one settler Im not sure where to position. Seems as much a liability as an asset if we drop it close to a Dutch city where we have to guard it. Our road vic Bergen is a mild concern, it isnt all on the west side of the river, so we have to keep stopping to cross it on our way down the valley. Ill try and fix that as time allows. Copenhagen will stay in warrior build to provide some sort of garrison.
IBT- Shaka would like our curragh to leave. Yeah, whatever. Dutch Utrecht grows to size 2.
Turn 1- Settler movement, archer climbs the mountain for a better view.
IBT- Byzantine city of Varna founded. They are also building the Oracle. Dutch building pyramids.
Turn 2- Sci rate 90-> 50%, Philosophy still in 1. Move settler again. A little check of the Dutch countryside. Will make Willy unhappy, but we need to see whats out there.
IBT- Philo in. Choose MM as our free advance as its the most expensive. Didnt see the GL in our future anytime soon if I chose Lit. Incans finish Colossus. Trondheim archer-> archer.
Turn 3- We settle Reyjavik, as the eastern lands appear to be filling up courtesy of the Byzantines. Sci to 90%, Lit in 18. I do more recon of the Dutch area.
IBT- Get kicked out of Holland without so much as a Have a nice day!. Dutch settler headed west. See an additional warrior pair vic Rotterdam. Bergen archer-> archer.
Turn 4- Positioning the archers to go in.
IBT- Sole Dutch warrior kills barb warrior just east of Trondheim. Barb horse also seen.
Copenhagen warrior-> warrior.
Turn 5- Final movement before we declare war.
IBT- Dutch warrior kills barb horse vic Trondheim. Dutch found Einhoven.
Turn 6- Our Foreign Minister regrets to inform William that the Tulip Festival is officially over. Dutch worker captured at Rotterdam, archers cross the border, 6 positioned on the hill due west, and 2 others north-northeast.
IBT- Redlined Dutch warrior stops on the road by Trondheim, ready to die. 2 other Dutch warriors lurking around Copenhagen.
Turn 7- I really wanted those cats, but Intelligence assures us Rotterdam is defended by old men on bicycles; Dutch reg spear showing, and here goes:
Archer 1- Dies outright, his spear promotes. 2nd reg spear shows.
Archer 2- Dies, reg spear loses 2 hp, but promotes.
Archer 3- Dies outright.
Archer 4- Redlines, kills spear.
Archer 5- Dies, Dutch spear loses 2 hp, but promotes.
Archer 6- Finally we find an archer who can fight, kills spear w/o damage and promotes.
Rotterdam razed with 4 gold. Im afraid its a moot point, we arent taking Amsterdam with 4 archers. Ill try and regroup, while killing off those 2 lurking warriors, then strike for Groningen. The terrain is more valuable that direction as it is. Amsterdam has no rivers nearby.
IBT- Dutch warrior pair move next to Copenhagen.
Turn 8- Send an archer to Copenhagen to reinforce pair of warrior defenders. Workers improve the area nearby
IBT- Dutch warrior attacks Copenhagen and dies. Bergen riots because I pulled the garrison archer forward. Ouch. Copenhagen warrior->settler. Reykjavik warrior-> warrior. Dutch archer, warrior approaching Reykjavik.
Turn 9- Move another archer coming from Trondheim into Bergen to restore order.
IBT- Dutch warrior kills our reg archer at Copenhagen, loses hp. Trondheim archer-> archer.
Turn 10- Our reg warrior kills that pesky Dutch warrior at Copenhagen.
IBT- Dutch moving closer to Reykjavik.
Turn 11- More terrain improvement vic Copenhagen.
Turn 12- Will start the movement towards Groningen next turn with 5 archers and a worker detail. Have workers build road on site of Rotterdam ruins, so we can settle the valley.
IBT- Another Dutch archer moving towards Rekjavik.
Turn 13- Move towards Groningen.
IBT- zzzz
Turn 14- same thing
IBT- More nothing.
Turn 15- Now within 2 of Groningen, but it looks like we may just end up trading Reykjavik for that city, as we only have 2 defenders there ourselves. But at least the Groningen terrain is more conducive to growth, and we can attack from the adjacent hill. Next player may want to do some trading with the other civs, as I didnt think we wanted to trade Philo for wheel and myst. We can get it from Willy as part of a peace deal if desired.
Note to next one up, I accidentally hit next turn, so it starts on Turn 81. Too bad we didnt do better, but with our cities starved for shield production, there just wasnt enough to work with after Rotterdam fell. Didnt see the need to go out in a blaze of glory at the gates of Amsterdam.
Pre turn assessment, other 4 civs have 1-98 gold, and are up wheel and myst. We have one settler Im not sure where to position. Seems as much a liability as an asset if we drop it close to a Dutch city where we have to guard it. Our road vic Bergen is a mild concern, it isnt all on the west side of the river, so we have to keep stopping to cross it on our way down the valley. Ill try and fix that as time allows. Copenhagen will stay in warrior build to provide some sort of garrison.
IBT- Shaka would like our curragh to leave. Yeah, whatever. Dutch Utrecht grows to size 2.
Turn 1- Settler movement, archer climbs the mountain for a better view.
IBT- Byzantine city of Varna founded. They are also building the Oracle. Dutch building pyramids.
Turn 2- Sci rate 90-> 50%, Philosophy still in 1. Move settler again. A little check of the Dutch countryside. Will make Willy unhappy, but we need to see whats out there.
IBT- Philo in. Choose MM as our free advance as its the most expensive. Didnt see the GL in our future anytime soon if I chose Lit. Incans finish Colossus. Trondheim archer-> archer.
Turn 3- We settle Reyjavik, as the eastern lands appear to be filling up courtesy of the Byzantines. Sci to 90%, Lit in 18. I do more recon of the Dutch area.
IBT- Get kicked out of Holland without so much as a Have a nice day!. Dutch settler headed west. See an additional warrior pair vic Rotterdam. Bergen archer-> archer.
Turn 4- Positioning the archers to go in.
IBT- Sole Dutch warrior kills barb warrior just east of Trondheim. Barb horse also seen.
Copenhagen warrior-> warrior.
Turn 5- Final movement before we declare war.
IBT- Dutch warrior kills barb horse vic Trondheim. Dutch found Einhoven.
Turn 6- Our Foreign Minister regrets to inform William that the Tulip Festival is officially over. Dutch worker captured at Rotterdam, archers cross the border, 6 positioned on the hill due west, and 2 others north-northeast.
IBT- Redlined Dutch warrior stops on the road by Trondheim, ready to die. 2 other Dutch warriors lurking around Copenhagen.
Turn 7- I really wanted those cats, but Intelligence assures us Rotterdam is defended by old men on bicycles; Dutch reg spear showing, and here goes:
Archer 1- Dies outright, his spear promotes. 2nd reg spear shows.
Archer 2- Dies, reg spear loses 2 hp, but promotes.
Archer 3- Dies outright.
Archer 4- Redlines, kills spear.
Archer 5- Dies, Dutch spear loses 2 hp, but promotes.
Archer 6- Finally we find an archer who can fight, kills spear w/o damage and promotes.
Rotterdam razed with 4 gold. Im afraid its a moot point, we arent taking Amsterdam with 4 archers. Ill try and regroup, while killing off those 2 lurking warriors, then strike for Groningen. The terrain is more valuable that direction as it is. Amsterdam has no rivers nearby.
IBT- Dutch warrior pair move next to Copenhagen.
Turn 8- Send an archer to Copenhagen to reinforce pair of warrior defenders. Workers improve the area nearby
IBT- Dutch warrior attacks Copenhagen and dies. Bergen riots because I pulled the garrison archer forward. Ouch. Copenhagen warrior->settler. Reykjavik warrior-> warrior. Dutch archer, warrior approaching Reykjavik.
Turn 9- Move another archer coming from Trondheim into Bergen to restore order.
IBT- Dutch warrior kills our reg archer at Copenhagen, loses hp. Trondheim archer-> archer.
Turn 10- Our reg warrior kills that pesky Dutch warrior at Copenhagen.
IBT- Dutch moving closer to Reykjavik.
Turn 11- More terrain improvement vic Copenhagen.
Turn 12- Will start the movement towards Groningen next turn with 5 archers and a worker detail. Have workers build road on site of Rotterdam ruins, so we can settle the valley.
IBT- Another Dutch archer moving towards Rekjavik.
Turn 13- Move towards Groningen.
IBT- zzzz
Turn 14- same thing
IBT- More nothing.
Turn 15- Now within 2 of Groningen, but it looks like we may just end up trading Reykjavik for that city, as we only have 2 defenders there ourselves. But at least the Groningen terrain is more conducive to growth, and we can attack from the adjacent hill. Next player may want to do some trading with the other civs, as I didnt think we wanted to trade Philo for wheel and myst. We can get it from Willy as part of a peace deal if desired.
Note to next one up, I accidentally hit next turn, so it starts on Turn 81. Too bad we didnt do better, but with our cities starved for shield production, there just wasnt enough to work with after Rotterdam fell. Didnt see the need to go out in a blaze of glory at the gates of Amsterdam.
microbe
Cascaded Mansion
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2003
- Messages
- 4,596
Rotterdam razed with 4 gold.
I haven't loaded the save, but was it autorazed?
We should attack Amsterdam or a town bigger than size 1 directly. We need to take cities, not (auto)raze them, as that gives us very little benefit (and gives other AIs the same benefit).
Can we sue for peace and take some size-1 towns from Netherlands?
EDIT: I checked the save.
We can make peace immediately and get Groningen and Wheel. I suggest we do that. 5 archers can probably take out Amsterdam but it can fail too (There will likely be 3 defense in the capital).
After this Netherlands is already toasted. After 20 turns we can come back with more units and wipe it out completely.
In the mean time we can deal with Byzantines.
I see we are researching Literature. Are we going to build Great Library? Fine with me, but we then want to trade for CoL by Philosophy and go min research for Republic.
Reykvik should probably start a temple immediately to compete for the dyes.
I haven't loaded the save, but was it autorazed?
We should attack Amsterdam or a town bigger than size 1 directly. We need to take cities, not (auto)raze them, as that gives us very little benefit (and gives other AIs the same benefit).
Can we sue for peace and take some size-1 towns from Netherlands?
EDIT: I checked the save.
We can make peace immediately and get Groningen and Wheel. I suggest we do that. 5 archers can probably take out Amsterdam but it can fail too (There will likely be 3 defense in the capital).
After this Netherlands is already toasted. After 20 turns we can come back with more units and wipe it out completely.
In the mean time we can deal with Byzantines.
I see we are researching Literature. Are we going to build Great Library? Fine with me, but we then want to trade for CoL by Philosophy and go min research for Republic.
Reykvik should probably start a temple immediately to compete for the dyes.
M60A3TTS
Ex-treadhead
Yes, Rotterdam autorazed. I debated saving the settler for that contingency, but instead hoped for Rdam to grow to size 2 before attacking, so it wouldn't. Didn't see it grow to a 2 before I decided not to wait longer and pull the string. If we can get Gronigen, that's what we should do, and rush build a settler from Copenhagen, so that we own that valley, which is the most productive terrain out there.
SesnOfWthr
True Believer
Well, if we can get the settler there, we'll have netted two cities. We didn't really think those archers were just going to lay waste, right? At any rate, I see it, and I'll try to play tonight. Is anyone else having problems with the forums last night? I couldn't get ob from about 10 pm or so on. Hopefully others were having the same problems, or else I have a mystery with my pc at home. 
M60A3TTS
Ex-treadhead
One question to discuss. If we draw our first MGL early, do we want to use it to move the capital around Copenhagen? The distance corruption from Trondheim is going to be an ongoing issue. The sooner we have a productive core going the better, IMO.
SesnOfWthr
True Believer
Isn't the palace considered a great wonder, thereby making the MGL useless for this discussion?
BTW -- Did anyone else have problems with the forums last night?
BTW -- Did anyone else have problems with the forums last night?
M60A3TTS
Ex-treadhead
I believe the palace is considered your garden-variety small wonder, like the FP. I did not have any problems when I got on last night to pull the save or post.
SesnOfWthr
True Believer
975 bc (1) Reykjavik is indeed doomed if I dont make peace, so I take Groningen + Wheel + 1 gold. Send 1 archer to MP in Groningen, rest towards Reyk. Change Reyk to temple. Trade philo to Egypt for CoL and 1 gold. Trade to Willie for Myst and 42 gold. Trade CoL and philo to Byz for Poly and 3 gold. Now at parity and three techs ahead of Zulu. There are horse right next to Reyk and Eindhoven.
950 bc (2) Zzzzz
925 bc (3) The one citizen in Groningen refuses to be content due to cruel oppression
900 bc (4) Trond arch -> arch. Bergen arch -> settler. Our curragh runs right into two barb galleys, not good. Drop sci to 50%, lit in 1.
Curragh defends vs both barbs, loses two hp and promotes.
875 bc (5) Get lit, start Monarchy at max in 32. Trade Shaka philo for 50 gold. No one has anything to offer for lit.
850 bc (6) Groningen finally made content with arrival of second MP.
825 bc (7) Trond arch -> spear. With road connection to Gron, can now release second MP.
800 bc (8) Copen settler -> archer.
775 bc (9) Oslo founded, culturally connecting Groningen. Starts worker.
750 bc (10) Trond spear -> spear.
Well, pretty uneventful turns all in all. Shaka got HBR a few turns ago and manged to trade back to parity. We still have monopoly on lit, but now Egypt has Monarchy. Why is it that I never choose the right techs to research? Really getting annoying. We now have 9 archers in Reyk, all vets with 1 elite. Figured Id let Microbe decide what to do with them, rather than start something with two turns left. I did nte that Nicaea is currently size two (hint hint). If we could manage to get a settler three tiles east and 1 NE of Groningen, we could nab some furs. If you send the curragh due south from its current loc, it looks like coastline.
Uploads are down so here's the attachment:
950 bc (2) Zzzzz
925 bc (3) The one citizen in Groningen refuses to be content due to cruel oppression
900 bc (4) Trond arch -> arch. Bergen arch -> settler. Our curragh runs right into two barb galleys, not good. Drop sci to 50%, lit in 1.
Curragh defends vs both barbs, loses two hp and promotes.
875 bc (5) Get lit, start Monarchy at max in 32. Trade Shaka philo for 50 gold. No one has anything to offer for lit.
850 bc (6) Groningen finally made content with arrival of second MP.
825 bc (7) Trond arch -> spear. With road connection to Gron, can now release second MP.
800 bc (8) Copen settler -> archer.
775 bc (9) Oslo founded, culturally connecting Groningen. Starts worker.
750 bc (10) Trond spear -> spear.
Well, pretty uneventful turns all in all. Shaka got HBR a few turns ago and manged to trade back to parity. We still have monopoly on lit, but now Egypt has Monarchy. Why is it that I never choose the right techs to research? Really getting annoying. We now have 9 archers in Reyk, all vets with 1 elite. Figured Id let Microbe decide what to do with them, rather than start something with two turns left. I did nte that Nicaea is currently size two (hint hint). If we could manage to get a settler three tiles east and 1 NE of Groningen, we could nab some furs. If you send the curragh due south from its current loc, it looks like coastline.
Uploads are down so here's the attachment:
SesnOfWthr
True Believer
You know, I actually remembered you suggesting Republic at min too, but my line of thought was that with all the fighting we're gonna be doing, Republic was more trouble than its worth. Or do you mean to say Monarchy is a useless tech to research?
Either way, I wish I could find a master list for tech value. I saw a formula someone posted once, but an actual list to be able to refer to would be nice. I don't know why I have such a hard time with research choices. I really feel that it holds me back on higher levels, as it gives you less options for trade in a situation like this.
Anyways, on the upside, I only researched the wrong thing for four or five turns. :rolleye:
Either way, I wish I could find a master list for tech value. I saw a formula someone posted once, but an actual list to be able to refer to would be nice. I don't know why I have such a hard time with research choices. I really feel that it holds me back on higher levels, as it gives you less options for trade in a situation like this.
Anyways, on the upside, I only researched the wrong thing for four or five turns. :rolleye:
microbe
Cascaded Mansion
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2003
- Messages
- 4,596
preturn: we have 5 cities with crappy shape. We ought to abandon our capital. I switch Trondheim to worker, and Bergen to temple.
We really need more workers.
I switch min research to Republic. We won't revolt to Monarchy.
(1)730BC: not much.
IBT Egypt starts ToA and completes Oracle.
(2)710BC: zzz
(3)690BC: I declare on Byzantines. Shoot, Nicaea shrinks to size 1. Apparently pop-rushed something.
(4)670BC: Battle at Nicaea.
vet archer 3/3 kills reg spear
vet archer 4/2 loses to reg spear and promotes it.
vet archer 4/0 loses to the spear again.
elite archer 2/3 kills it.
vet archer 0/3 kills reg sword.
Nicaea autorazed.
(5)650BC: Vet archer kills reg warrior and promotes.
IBT Egypt demands Lit, I refuse, she declares.
(6)630BC: zzz
(7)610BC: zzz
(8)590BC: Byzantines agrees to give HBR+Caesarea to us for peace, but not Varna the dyes city. I'll take it out and then sue for peace. In the mean time Egypt sends two reg warriors to us for a joke.
We found Stockholm in the original spot of Nicaea and pillaged the iron.
Kill 3 Egypt warriors.
(9)570BC: zzz
(10)550BC: We raze Varna. MM Trondheim to not grow next turn when settler is due. Hint: it's size 2 now.
I sell the rax in Trondheim. Should have done this earlier!
To next player:
Important! Do not disturb Trondheim - I've set it up so settler is due next turn without growth, and you'll be prompted. Choose "Abandon Trondheim" and you'll get a free palace jump to Coperhagen (our biggest city). Then immediately resettle it because we need the silks. Don't mess this up.
We can now get Caesarea+HBR by peace treaty. We could try to capture Caesarea and then we can get Smyrna or even Adrianople (the ivory city), but peace may be better because Egypt is now the most powerful civ and getting really big, so we should focus on it instead. Killing Byzantines might not be the best interest to us.
Egypt hasn't sent much to us (3 warriors killed, and there is one spear coming down).
I think we should focus on consolidating the cities we get. But do keep a city building military. Probably Bergen as it has a rax already.
I forget what type of map it is and now the net is down so I couldn't check. I think it is continents (we haven't met Inca) and we've met everybody on our continent. So I'm sending the galley back to Zulu and hope to run a suicide exploration to the south east.
Groningen is building a harbor and then start another galley?
research: see if max research on republic makes sense after the palace jump.
We should keep expanding and settling. We also need more workers to mine the hills. Our new capital is kinda shield poor.
Peace treaty with Netherlands is going to expire soon. You know what that means.
550BC
We really need more workers.
I switch min research to Republic. We won't revolt to Monarchy.
(1)730BC: not much.
IBT Egypt starts ToA and completes Oracle.
(2)710BC: zzz
(3)690BC: I declare on Byzantines. Shoot, Nicaea shrinks to size 1. Apparently pop-rushed something.
(4)670BC: Battle at Nicaea.
vet archer 3/3 kills reg spear
vet archer 4/2 loses to reg spear and promotes it.
vet archer 4/0 loses to the spear again.
elite archer 2/3 kills it.
vet archer 0/3 kills reg sword.
Nicaea autorazed.
(5)650BC: Vet archer kills reg warrior and promotes.
IBT Egypt demands Lit, I refuse, she declares.
(6)630BC: zzz
(7)610BC: zzz
(8)590BC: Byzantines agrees to give HBR+Caesarea to us for peace, but not Varna the dyes city. I'll take it out and then sue for peace. In the mean time Egypt sends two reg warriors to us for a joke.
We found Stockholm in the original spot of Nicaea and pillaged the iron.
Kill 3 Egypt warriors.
(9)570BC: zzz
(10)550BC: We raze Varna. MM Trondheim to not grow next turn when settler is due. Hint: it's size 2 now.
I sell the rax in Trondheim. Should have done this earlier!
To next player:
Important! Do not disturb Trondheim - I've set it up so settler is due next turn without growth, and you'll be prompted. Choose "Abandon Trondheim" and you'll get a free palace jump to Coperhagen (our biggest city). Then immediately resettle it because we need the silks. Don't mess this up.
We can now get Caesarea+HBR by peace treaty. We could try to capture Caesarea and then we can get Smyrna or even Adrianople (the ivory city), but peace may be better because Egypt is now the most powerful civ and getting really big, so we should focus on it instead. Killing Byzantines might not be the best interest to us.
Egypt hasn't sent much to us (3 warriors killed, and there is one spear coming down).
I think we should focus on consolidating the cities we get. But do keep a city building military. Probably Bergen as it has a rax already.
I forget what type of map it is and now the net is down so I couldn't check. I think it is continents (we haven't met Inca) and we've met everybody on our continent. So I'm sending the galley back to Zulu and hope to run a suicide exploration to the south east.
Groningen is building a harbor and then start another galley?
research: see if max research on republic makes sense after the palace jump.
We should keep expanding and settling. We also need more workers to mine the hills. Our new capital is kinda shield poor.
Peace treaty with Netherlands is going to expire soon. You know what that means.
550BC
M60A3TTS
Ex-treadhead
I know, I had thought about abandoning the place myself, but I knew we couldn't because of the self-imposed rules. Like we don't already have enough of a challenge. Of course we could sell off the improvements, vacate Trondheim, and let it get captured, but that wouldn't be in keeping with the spirit of the rules. We all knew what we were getting into (or maybe not) from the beginning. I vote we have to wait. Very surprised Theodora was ready to talk peace after only 5 turns. Wonder if she's at war with anyone else?
SesnOfWthr
True Believer
Unfortunately, I think we're gonna have to wait as well. I don't really want to change horses midstream, so to speak. I think the point of the rule is to avoid the putting-the-palace-in-the-middle-of-nowhere exploit, but it says pretty clearly that "if you want a new palace, then build it."
I have to apologize for inadvertently making this game harder than it had to be. If there is a next time, I'll tailor the map settings to the game better so we won't have to consider these things. Although I'm not sorry I imposed LKendter's rules, I'm sorry it is an issue.
Hopefully we have a few elites that Bede could do a bit of leader farming with.
By my count, Dutch peace should expire on turn 2 of Bede's turns.
I have to apologize for inadvertently making this game harder than it had to be.
If there is a next time, I'll tailor the map settings to the game better so we won't have to consider these things. Although I'm not sorry I imposed LKendter's rules, I'm sorry it is an issue.Hopefully we have a few elites that Bede could do a bit of leader farming with.
By my count, Dutch peace should expire on turn 2 of Bede's turns.
Similar threads
