settling on top of resources

[free_cat]

A discussion about settling on top of resources started in this thread:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=414092

Bibor comments that resources turn into 6 yeld tile in renassence. How exactly? Is that a post-patch change?

I've found settling on top of resources a very good strategy in some circumstances and in multiplayer games.

Is it worthy sometimes or not? Your views?

 

[Bibor]

Bibor comments that resources turn into 6 yeld tile in renassence. How exactly? Is that a post-patch change?

Yes, this is post-patch.

All mines get +1 with Chemistry (silver, gold and gems)
All quarries get +1 with Chemistry (marble)
All plantations get +1 with Fertilizer (thus all other land happiness resources and bananas)
All camps get +1 with Economics (deer, ivory)
All pastures get +1 with Fertilizer (cattle, horse, sheep)

Horses, cattle, sheep get +1 from Stables.
Bananas, Wheat, Deer +get from Granary.
Iron mines gets +1 from Forge.

 

[Martin Alvito]

It boils down to this: you want to settle luxuries (or Iron) when Worker turns are scarce, and settle next to luxuries once they no longer are. Functionally, what this means is that you want to settle luxuries during your first expansion wave, and settle next to them once you lift the Happiness cap with Colosseums and start the second wave.

Speeding up getting the 300 from early luxury resales will do a lot more for your game than the additional tile yields will later. Doing that also means that your Workers can start on improving yields that much earlier.

Settling Horses is almost always a bad idea. The only exception is if you plan to Horse rush immediately.

 

[Lieu]

Martin is right. It's way more important early game to remove what is bottlenecking you. You can't afford to sit around for 20 turns waiting for another worker or an available worker when you need that happiness or gold now.

 

[Bibor]

Note that What Martin is saying applies to Immortal(?) or Deity only. AIs don't sit on that much cash at start on lower levels to merit the instant happiness resource.

 

[MadDjinn]

Note that What Martin is saying applies to Immortal(?) or Deity only. AIs don't sit on that much cash at start on lower levels to merit the instant happiness resource.

they don't at Deity either

but that's what their inflated gpt is for. One simple way to nerf the AI early game is to use their gpt. If they've got none, they can't cover maintenance costs; which might prevent a DoW or them expanding wide or building tall.

 

[free_cat]

It boils down to this: you want to settle luxuries (or Iron) when Worker turns are scarce, and settle next to luxuries once they no longer are. Functionally, what this means is that you want to settle luxuries during your first expansion wave, and settle next to them once you lift the Happiness cap with Colosseums and start the second wave.

Speeding up getting the 300 from early luxury resales will do a lot more for your game than the additional tile yields will later. Doing that also means that your Workers can start on improving yields that much earlier.

Settling Horses is almost always a bad idea. The only exception is if you plan to Horse rush immediately.

Interesting views.
I agree mainly. I usually do it like this, specially in MP. I settle on top of luxuries in my first wave, so I can settle much faster without falling in negative happines. However, with the new patch changes, it is possibly much less strong now as city tile has been so nerfed down.

I'm realizing I'm not really good at planning my second wave of settling. I usually end up only with the first wave +2/3 more cities. Is it always worth it to grab all the land possible even if there are not many resources/river?

 

[walkerjks]

Note that What Martin is saying applies to Immortal(?) or Deity only. AIs don't sit on that much cash at start on lower levels to merit the instant happiness resource.

It is kind of remarkable that it is probably easier to get faster diplo/science win at higher difficulty levels due to the AI cash situation. I'm working my way up the chain, and you notice that the AI has considerably more cash at King, rather than Prince. But they still often don't have enough cash or cash flow. You sometimes have to take a less than optimal deal for a luxury or occasionally simply can't get a 3rd or 4th (on standard size) simultaneous RA because the AIs don't have enough free cash.

Higher difficulty levels can make diplomatic victories a bit trickier (as an AI civ can often outbribe you for city-state votes), but as far as the teching is concerned, higher difficulty is easier. And I simply don't think that happiness constraints really offset this. Not the best of designs.

Since I mainly aim to win peacefully, I suspect (but don't know) that higher difficulty may really make cultural wins a (little) bit harder. You'll tech faster, but you also have significantly more expensive social policies (and the happiness constraints - which might make the one city cultural win the way to go on Deity).

 

[Civsassin]

Higher difficulty levels can make diplomatic victories a bit trickier (as an AI civ can often outbribe you for city-state votes), but as far as the teching is concerned, higher difficulty is easier.

Since I mainly aim to win peacefully, I suspect (but don't know) that higher difficulty may really make cultural wins a (little) bit harder. You'll tech faster, but you also have significantly more expensive social policies (and the happiness constraints - which might make the one city cultural win the way to go on Deity).

First, I don't know how you can say that teching is easier on higher difficulties. The AI has such significant bonuses that you are constantly fighting to keep pace or even take a lead in science.

Second, you don't tech faster at higher levels; the AI does. You get bonuses up to Prince. Beyond that, the only bonuses go to the AI. Your tech pace and social policy costs are the same. It is the AI's that change to their benefit.

 

[walkerjks]

The AIs have more money. Therefore, you can more often get full value for selling extra luxuries or strategic resources. And more money means more research agreements*, so higher tech costs are less relevant.

I guess I'd like to see Martin's strategy applied to a Prince game and a Deity game. I bet the Prince game would not end earlier than the Deity game, as it relies on RAs to get most of the expensive techs. I can say, anecdotally, that I am winning faster as I move up difficulty, but whether that is because the AIs have more cash (they do) or whether I am getting better at tech blocking may be up for debate.

And note that this isn't an argument that your relative tech position will be better - it won't at deity. It's just that I suspect it is possible for you to be farther along the tech tree if the AI has adequate money to simultaneously buy your resources at full value and fund RAs. And you need higher difficulty levels for that, particularly very early in the game (for education at turn 70, for example).

*I'm making an assumption here that I suppose I don't know is absolutely true - the cost of RAs is constant across difficulty levels.

 

[mph3]

Having played peaceful science victories, post-patch, on both Immortal and Deity, I can say that there's a considerable difference between those two, let alone King. On Deity, as soon as an RA pops, the AI always has the cash to renew, they always have the cash to give you full value on all luxuries and resources, even the weaker AI's that are getting beat on. On Immortal, not nearly as much, especially early game. So it is easier to tech faster on higher levels.

And its not that tough to be tech leader on Deity, you'll just never have too much of a lead.

 

[Civsassin]

@walkerjks

Logically, the game must finish faster at higher levels because the AI will reach techs much more quickly that allow it to go into an early space race or get the UN built.

I am not a fan of too many RAs at any level. Remember that it helps you, but it also helps the AI, which already has significant bonuses at higher levels. At lower levels, you don't need RAs to lead in tech. Later in the game, you will only have a few competitive AIs while the rest have been either conquered or minimized to a point that they don't have the gold for RAs. Early on though, I try to spread RAs across the lower ranked AIs, avoiding too many with the leaders.

But you are right; at higher levels you have to be more efficient at teching to remain competitive.

 

[Pac-Dragon]

I am not a fan of too many RAs at any level. Remember that it helps you, but it also helps the AI, which already has significant bonuses at higher levels.

I don't agree. When you sign an RA with another civ it's a pretty break even decision if you're only considering the trading partner. But what's really happening is that it's hurting every civ who's not in on the deal. If I have the cash, I prefer to sign RAs with every civ possible... including giving cash to broke civs just to make the deal happen. Every RA I miss out on is hurting my tech rate.

 

[Civsassin]

I don't agree. When you sign an RA with another civ it's a pretty break even decision if you're only considering the trading partner. But what's really happening is that it's hurting every civ who's not in on the deal. If I have the cash, I prefer to sign RAs with every civ possible... including giving cash to broke civs just to make the deal happen. Every RA I miss out on is hurting my tech rate.

I find that up to immortal difficulty, I can remain competitive with a minimum number of RAs and most usually with the handicapped civs - ones that aren't competitive for one reason or another. It's not a break even decision if you sign an RA with a civ that is already a tech leader. Their tech lead grows, and they still have the bonuses above that. If they are winning the tech battle, they can get a tech that costs significantly more beakers than the one you will get. Besides, there are other uses for your limited gold in the game. Get a CS, or two, in your stable. Buy a particularly significant building. Etc. Sometimes those things can be as important. A maritime CS will boost population, which is science after all.

Don't get me wrong, RAs are useful; I am just more cautious about signing them. Call it my personal preference, but it seems to work well for me.

 

[MadDjinn]

it just depends on how you look at it.

If you sign more RAs over the game than each individual AI, then you're going to easily win.

Ie, the AI does not RA block. So you can sign 5 RAs in one go and fill in an entire line of the tech tree (deep) , while each of those 5 AIs only get 1. So you can provide focus and hit certain marks early, whereas even if they all sign RAs with each other, they'll just go 'wide' techwise.

The number of techs is less important than the quality of those techs. (mid-late game)

 

[vexing]

First, I don't know how you can say that teching is easier on higher difficulties. The AI has such significant bonuses that you are constantly fighting to keep pace or even take a lead in science.

it's 100% true, if you fully manipulate the system your raw tech rate is much higher on higher difficulties, even if relative to the AI it might not be. occ cultural wins before turn 250 are possible on deity, i doubt you could do it on prince even though you gain no wonder competition.

3 reasons it's harder on lower difficulty:
ais don't have enough gold to sustain continuous RAs and buying of your luxuries (both are necessary)
ais are going to be behind you in tech so your RAs are going to cost more (they won't sign unless you give 100 extra gold or such)
city states have lower tech rate so the patronage branch 1/3rd science from city states is a lot less.

 

[Civsassin]

it's 100% true, if you fully manipulate the system your raw tech rate is much higher on higher difficulties, even if relative to the AI it might not be. occ cultural wins before turn 250 are possible on deity, i doubt you could do it on prince even though you gain no wonder competition.

3 reasons it's harder on lower difficulty:
ais don't have enough gold to sustain continuous RAs and buying of your luxuries (both are necessary)
ais are going to be behind you in tech so your RAs are going to cost more (they won't sign unless you give 100 extra gold or such)
city states have lower tech rate so the patronage branch 1/3rd science from city states is a lot less.

That's not my experience playing through Immortal difficulty. It is a constant battle to keep pace with the AIs at higher levels, which have significantly higher tech rates. The extra gold they have permits THEM to sign a lot of RAs and ally CSs. The limited gold I can make is used to keep pace and form an occasional RA until later in the game when my gold production spikes. Early on, I often buy a library or University to get the most out of my turns. If I'm not mistaken, CSs also tech at the rate of the games tech leader.

 

[vexing]

you're still talking about relative tech rate rather than raw tech rate.

and you are mistaken, CS beaker output isn't based on tech leader.

 

[Civsassin]

you're still talking about relative tech rate rather than raw tech rate.

and you are mistaken, CS beaker output isn't based on tech leader.

OK. When you say raw tech rate, you're talking BPT, to include the results of RAs, corrrect? So your saying that the RAs are the game changer with regards to research potential on higher levels? I find that to expand, I am unable to really explore many social branches, and I am always trying to improve my happiness in order to expand and grow to maintain an increasing tech rate.

 

[vexing]

OK. When you say raw tech rate, you're talking BPT, to include the results of RAs, corrrect? So your saying that the RAs are the game changer with regards to research potential on higher levels? I find that to expand, I am unable to really explore many social branches, and I am always trying to improve my happiness in order to expand and grow to maintain an increasing tech rate.

yes. basically RAs are extremely overpowered, especially when you block so they go deep while you're using your actual bpt to research cheap techs. look at any occ deity game, by massively exploiting RAs a player can maintain tech parity without only a few real bpt. deity occ culture and science wins are possible only because of RAs.