SGOTM 01 - Fifth Element

[Groin_Apologist]

Checking in- I wanted to get some assessment, and I'll plan on playing my turns tonite...

1.) We'll have alphabet in 6 - maybe sooner if I max Sci per Perugia. I assume we will trade with Cyrus right away. Is there any advantage/disadvantage to getting open borders before then?
After getting alphabet, sci at 0% until we get the libraries built, then hopefully to 100% and work commerce tiles (also per Perugia).
What do we want to research next?

2.) Cities
Memphis (5) - growth in 5, Library in 18
Thebes (6) - growth in 2, Library in 11
Elephantine Canal - growth in 5, work boat in 13
Moscow (4) - growth in 12, Library in 6 - what is next build here?

3.) Settler
I am thinking the next best site is right on top of the horses 3NW of Moscow in order to incorporate those gems. This site has alot of water, and would negate bonuses from pasturing the horses, but only has 1 tile overlap with Elephantine and 1 tile overlap with Moscow.
Other contenders would be 1S4E of Thebes (captures fish as well as clam), 3NE of Elephantine, and 4SE of Msocow.
Thoughts?

 

[Dolphan]

@Groin_Apologist #321

The horses site is precisely what I was thinking - I believe Gskur suggested it earlier as well. I'm open to arguments for the other sites though.

 

[Goodenuf]

On the horses looks good to me, too, for all those gems. Working the mined gems is big coin, and therefore big research, which is exactly what we need.

Open Borders isn't necessary until we get the workboat ready to sail. If he asks for it, I would grant it (being good neighbours and all...), but I wouldn't ask for it until we're ready.

As far as next build in Moscow; I'd be tempted to build a granary, but it depends on what we get out of tech trades as well, which are also due in 6 turns. Of course, another options is worker or settler.

The other cities have a ways to go before figuring out what to build next. Libraries are important enough to stay on until the end.

 

[Perugia]

#321 through #323 I agree on the next city on the horses for all those gems (red dot). Build a granary there to speed growth to size 5.

We are suffering unit costs of 4gpt and supply costs of 2gpt for our fog busters and workboat scouts. Hopefully founding the new city will eliminate most of this spend otherwise we should withdraw some fog busters and just leave strong military in the area inside our border to deal with any barbarian spawnings. I would not like any more units disbanded at this stage though just build more cities to increase support.

If we still have unit costs then Moscow should start on the next settler otherwise a Rax. I don't see any compelling reason for a granary there at present. Small cities or unhealthy large ones are where we need granaries and Moscow is neither of these. Aslo as I said earlier we have some seafood to settle and connect that can deal with immediate health issues in the large cities.

I also think the city for the future Moscow settler should be 3SE of Moscow (orange dot) just in case any AI beat us to it, this is better than 4SE as it gains a grass hill and loses a desert hill.

I still think we could settle 1W2SW of Moscow (purple dot), its not that good a site but would give us an instant trade link to Persia.

I like the green and blue dot positions. Green dot should be settled as soon as Thebes or Memphis has completed its Library. Not only does it have the 2 seafood resources, flood plains and 3 other river tiles 3 it also converts a desert to a usable tile and it will make a versatile site able to grow some of the Thebean cottages when the Thebeans are away mining their hills plus have some FPs of its own and access to the Eastern ocean. Blue dot looks like a reasonable site for some moderate naval production on the NW coast with a little river access.

I have been thinking some more about where we need to reserve a route for irrigating the rice in the Thebes/Heliopolis overlap. Since we will eventually want the Globe Theatre in Thebes we should keep all 4 forests around Thebes for the +2 health and that means the irrigation must come from the west as shown in the second attachment. The blue rectangles represent future farmed tiles that should not be cottaged as we would not wnat to demolish cottages later after they have grown.

 

[Groin_Apologist]

Let me preface this by saying that I am playing the current Prince GOTM at Adventurer class. I confess that I didn't always know what to do with the workers, and I can't micromanage myself out of a wet paper bag. So what I'm saying is - I won't take any offense to criticisms - I am here to learn.

EDIT - sorry, I didn't get Perugia's last post before I played the turns

280 BC
bumped science to 100% (-20g, but alphabet in 4 turns)

265 BC
science drops to 90%, gold at zero (-12/turn), alphabet still in 4
workboat heads toward Elephantine Canal
chariot Dani C2 moves toward fogbusting duties in the SE
settler moves toward proposed 'horsie' site
Moscow worker moves to hook up cows, another branches off main road to hook up the new city
Merneith C2 moves out of Elephantine to garrison Heliopolis, Axemen moves to replace
Leonardo starts a cottage at heliopolis
chariots Tiu C2 and Ka C2 move to garrison future city

250 BC
Cyrus contacted us over the turn and wanted open borders - OK
A barb archer appears to the SE of Moscow - Dani moves to intercept with support from Djet
Science goes to 60%
"Gem City" of Alexandria founded over the horses - I wasn't sure what to build so I chose a work boat (wanted to hook up those clams by Heliopolis sooner than later)
workboat moors itself in Elephantine Canal

235 BC
Barb archer attacks Dani on her hill and suffers defeat - Dani now 2.2/5 and continues her original course to fogbust. Not needed, Djet goes back to his own fogbusting position.
Livy tells us who the largest civs are: 1.) unknown 2.) unknown 3.) Fifth Element the Fine 4.) Huayana Capac the Mediocre 5.)unknown 6.) Cyrus the Pathetic
Aaron and Apprentice hook us up with copper - (I moved apprentice toward the capital, as we have no workers up there); Aaron heads to Alexandria
work boat heads toward Persia

220 BC
Elephantine's borders expand
Alexandria now connected by roads
(I moved apprentice to road the cows by the capitol, then realized they're by a river)
worker at Alexandria starts to prep gems with road

205 BC
Heliopolis builds work boat (which heads toward Elephantine Canal), starts Library
Moscow builds Library, starts Granary

190 BC
Apprentice decides to farm an unused flood plain near the capitol
gold at zero again - research now at 50%

175 BC
We discover ALPHABET - I return to sailing as a target, but knock science down to 0% (gold now +25/turn)
Leonardo chops jungle over sugar tile near heliopolis

Pow-Wow with Cyrus: He has archery, sailing, mysticism, and math. He offers archery/sailing/mysticism, but will also give math/mysticism. I take the latter.

160 BC
Moscow worker moves over sugar to clear jungle
Our workboat scout discovers the first Persian City: TARSUS (2) is Hindu and garrisoned by an archer and a spear

145 BC
Elephantine finishes a workboat, which heads toward Persia to explore the coastline in the opposite direction. Library Started.

130 BC
The workboat from heliopolis works the clams at Elephantine.
Our scout workboat continues south and discovers a second Persian city: ARBELA (3) is garrisoned by an archer and an axe. Strangely enough, it is Jewish, which is why I think we now encounter:

Gandhi and the Indian Civilization
(They are the most powerful we have met, with a score of 876.)
I had a pow-wow with him, and was delighted to learn that Cyrus hadn't traded alphabet to him yet. Gandhi was willing to trade Meditation and Sailing for it, but not Archery too. He also had Polytheism and Metal Casting already, but wasn't willing to offer those at all.
I also made an even trade of our rice for his pig. He is now PLEASED with us, actually.

Wrap-up:
- I chose Priesthood as a default for next research, but we can discuss and whoever is next can change before the next turn if we wish.
- The slider is still at 0%. We have 72 gold +30/turn (priesthood in 133). I don't know if we want to readjust that or not.
- If we want, we can trade Cyrus for some fish (he needs cows). I must confess I am ignorant about this - if the trade is even, is there any advantage beyond improving relations?
- Both Cyrus and Gandhi are willing to trade Archery, but we have nothing to offer in return yet.
- Alexandria expanded already, so we can get to work on those gem mines.
- Good luck whoever's up next!

 

[Dolphan]

Ooh, things looking up a bit - alphabet was a good move! If we want to attack Cyrus, we will only really need one or two galleys - just set them up as a 'bridge' on the one square of sea between us and him. We should check if we're locked at peace with Gandhi.

BTW, anyone who was worring about us being at the bottom of the score chart should take another look.

EDIT - when we meet the two remaining civs we'll qualify for the first spoiler. Any volunteers to be scribe?

 

[Perugia]

Groin_Apologist #325. Ok - I'm up and will get the save tonight. I'll then review your recent worker activity further and provide detailed feedback.

Spoiler workers :

My initial thoughts before loading the save and solely based on your log are:

265 BC Moscow worker moves to hook up cows. This is sound as we expect to be able to trade surplus resources with the AI soon.
Another branches off main road to hook up the new city. Obviously a good move to expand trade network and speed unit movement
Leonardo starts a cottage at heliopolis. More commerce - generally a sound move but need to check this is not an irrigation route as we don't want to demolish cottages later as they take a long time to mature.

235 BC Aaron and Apprentice hook us up with copper - (I moved apprentice toward the capital, as we have no workers up there); Aaron heads to Alexandria Excellent I have plans for Apprentice to improve in and around Capital and prebuild near the green dot site and the Gems site needs getting up to speed

220 BC Worker at Alexandria starts to prep gems with road Good move to improve worker efficiency - as these gems are on jungle sending one worker there first to road the tile will allow other workers to move there and start chopping/mining it the same turn they arrive.

190 BC Apprentice decides to farm an unused flood plain near the capitol There would need to be a good reason to do this, does the capitol really need more food - each FP is +1 and a farmed FP +2. Of course it needs some food to work the mined hills & quarry but would another cottage be better?

175 BC Leonardo chops jungle over sugar tile near heliopolis There is nothing wrong with this but as we haven't yet researched the calendar will the sugar be the best tile for Heliopolis to work next, there may be a better task for Leonardo

160 BC Moscow worker moves over sugar to clear jungle Same comment as Leonardo above

@Dolphan #326. Couldn't agree more and well done GA in setting science to 100% to get Alphabet all the quicker.

I'll have to look closely at the score when I download the save

Who want's to write the spoiler?

 

[Merum]

Well, after 4 planes, 4 airports, two border crossings, and 32 hours I have arrived with a horrific case of jet lag, so you get random thoughts...

1. What are our plans to defend against the inevitable arrival of Huayna? Need to make sure we have proper garrisons.

2. Given that Ghandi is already pleased with us, he is most likely our locked ally. We'll need to think of strats to keep him small.

3. Let's not rush blindly into war with Cyrus.

4. We should find out if Ghandi knows Huayna, and if so, what he thinks of him.

5. We're bigger than Huayna... nyeh, nyeh nyeh

6. Let's not focus too much on score... the goal is fastest, not highest scoring

7. Since i can't open the saves, screenshots would be highly appreciated.

Going to try to sleep now (4AM)... good luck, guys!

 

[Perugia]

OK got the save folks. Ghandi is our locked ally we cannot declare war on him Not sure what strats we can used to limit his expansion.

Top Cities
1 Dehli 8 - Pyramids, Stonehenge, Oracle
2 Persepolis 6
3 Cuzco 9 - Chichen Itza +25% City Defense for our locked enemy!
4 Thebes 7
5 Unknown 6 - The Parthenon

Ghandi also has the Vashi Vishwanath, The Colossus & The Temple of Solomon. Ghandi is cautions with Cyrus and does not know anyone else.

Pre-turn
Trade cows (1 of 5) to Cyrus for fish (1 of 3) so we can get better relations. Even though eventually we can have our own fish.

Memphis Library is due in 1 and growing well into unhappiness so we can pop rush our next improvement.

Thebes Library due in 6 take 2 citizens off hamlets and put them to work in the mines. Still working our village for 4 gold though. Library completion reduced to 4 turns.

Heliopolis Growth in 7 to max, Library due in 15. See what happens if we move citizen from grassland forest to plains forest. This moves growth out to 11, Library in 13. I decide to leave citizen on the grassland until grow to size 5 then will move to plains forest. Library completion reduced to 13 turns. Cancel Leonardo's orders to clear jungle over the grass so he can move to the hills next turn and start a mine there. When the mine is in will move citizen from the rice 4F to the mine 4H.

Also cancel other workers orders. Now we have math can chop odd forests inside city radii that are not contributing health (2 forests needed for +1 health).

Finance
Units costs are currently 3gpt. Another city would bring this under control and partially offset the increased maintenance which is currently 20gpt.

We have +2 trade routes in our largest cities with Arbela, Tarsus, Persepolis, Pasargadae, Susa and an internal +1 trade route at Alexandria.

Alexandria Workboat > Granary

Elephantine Library > Galley as we now have sailing. Will reorganise chariots to have weakest ready at Elephantine to be scouts.

Moscow MM to grow in 1 by moving a citizen to the rice. Will then suspend work on granary and start a settler.

What shall we research? I recommend Drama for the theatres & Globe Theatre in our capital. Our friends could be well on the way to Priesthood as they had the pre-requisites for some time.

 

[Goodenuf]

India... it just had to be India. They can be an economic powerhouse. Best way to win against India is to go to war with them (grrr). I wonder if we can incite someone else to go after them?

REriesthood.... if they have the oracle, then they already have Priesthood.

Do we know when Chichen Itza is obsolete? I don't have the reference here... That is unfortunate that we'll have to deal with that hassle. Alternatively, I suppose we simpy pillage them to death.

Perugia... take your time with your turns. I'm on deck, but I'm busy until Saturday (10th) at the earliest anyway.

 

[Merum]

Chichen Itza is obsolete with rifling.

One thing we might consider is trying to bribe Ghandi into a war with Huayna... that might ****** both of them, for a while. Razings on both sides would be very good for us. Ghandi losing cities to Huayna would also be good, as we could then ah, acquire them later on.

 

[Perugia]

OK Priesthood is not showing up on the trade screen immediately 'cos we only just traded for the prerequisites. That's an annoying feature that Firaxis added to Civ IV, I remember when you could trade after trade and climb through the Tech tree all in one turn but I suppose its kinda realistic. We should stick to the Alphabet branch of the tree as we have a monopoly on that at present and I'll go for Drama in particular.

Anti-India strats.

# Cancel existing health resource trade deal when expired (about 8 turns) and do not enter into any new deals.

# Think had before trading techs with India.

# We should avoid spreading both religions that Ghandi founded to limit his shrine income. We must try to research one of the remaining religions or pick up one from another power.

# None of our trade routes are with India even though the Indian cities are further away and probably larger than the Persian ones. On balance this is good as India can't have any trade with us either. This is good as we can attack Persia later but can't attack India. Howver, I am not sure how we keep it this way. Maybe if we don't explore the trade route to India that the Persians are using to learn the Indian religions this will continue. Since we can't attack Ghandi do we really need to know the lie of the land over there?

# I need to look at the relationships screen to see if our Locked Alliance with India puts him into Locked War with the Inca. If it does, and the Inca border India then we can ask Ghandi to attack strong Inca cities to blow his spare units away. Hopefully the Inca can then capture or raze some Indian cities. If this works the nice thing is Ghandi would be unable to sue for peace.

Chichen Itza goes obsolete with Replaceable Parts [edit Rifling. I knew that dunno why I typed RP?!] so we would need some really focused city attack teams. Probably CA promoted aces supported by suicide catapults otherwise I'm all for a good bit of pillage. I'm really hoping we can be scavengers from an epic Indian - Incan war.

I will take time with the turns thank you and take 2-3 sessions reporting back after each one (Thurs/Fri/Sat) - this will help domestically.

 

[Dolphan]

We're locked in peace with Gandhi, not allied, so he won't have to declare on HC if he doesn't want to. This is going to make domination tricky/impossible, we may end up needingto vote ourselves to a diplo win.

 

[Perugia]

Ok Dolphan this will be a long slog as I won't be easy to get Ghandi into war with HC and to keep him there without continually bribing him. To do that or go diplo we are going to need lots of Technology.

I'll play my first few turns tonight. Research will be in the upper part of the Tech tree while we see what else the AI has learnt.

 

[Perugia]

HC is quite ahead of us in tech as he has CoL to be able to build Chichen Itza and has Currency (2 gold available to trade). He lacks Alphabet though.

We have automatic OB with Gandhi as a result of the locked alliance

Set science rate to 50% for 12 beakers in Thebes an exact multiple of 4 which will raise to 15 with no lost fractions when the Library builds next turn. Our only other Library in Moscow is conveniently producing exactly 5 beakers. Set research to Drama due in 21. Treasury 72 -1gpt.

Turn 1 115BC
Christianity FIDL
Unit cost dropped to 2
Drama due in 18
Thebes builds Library > Axe (part built)
Moscow grows to size 5
Gandhi will now trade Priesthood but not Calendar. Cyrus will also trade Priesthood. We done need it as have no religion and have nothing to offer.
Leonardo and moves to plains hill as Heliopolis needs the +2 hammers from a mine
Worker moved from gems towards forest in Elephantine radius spends one turn mining a grass hill on the way so not to waste its turn
Aaron stopped from chopping a jungle grass hill and moved to a non-jungle grass hill to shave 6 turns off getting a mine established in gem city to speed Granary production.
Worker2 abandons work on sugar forest at Moscow and spends one turn clearing gems jungle vacated by worker1. Next turn will move to already clear gem and start mining it.
Workboats keep moving

Turn 2 100BC
HC adopts Organised Religion
Workers start 3 mines
Workboats keep moving

Turn 3 85BC
A forest grows near Elephantine giving it +1 health just as I was about to chop the other. Decide to chop anyway and put the hammers into a granary as they are on hills and mines are better from the hammer viewpoint and this is a production city.
2nd workboat arrives in Persia but neither boat reports and interesting news.

Turn 4 70BC
Thebes Axe > Aqueduct (no hammers yet so can be changed) unit costs back at 3gpt
Memphis Library > Granary (part built) put citizens back on to the cottages
Increase science to 80%. All 3 libraries working optimally - Thebes 25, Memphis 15 Moscow 10 beakers. Drama due in 8 but treasury will empty before then and will have to generate some gold.

Stopping for the night……

 

[Merum]

Just a quick note... we do not have a monopoly on the alphabet line, as we've traded it to both Cyrus and Ghandi. they can go down that path as easily as we.

Should we actively try to pick up a religion? Temples and monasteries will give us happiness and culture boosts, not to mention the science bonus from the monasteries...

 

[Groin_Apologist]

@ Perugia - Thanks for the worker feedback.

A question: If we are locked in peace with Gandhi, it seems like we should default go down whatever reseach path he ISN'T so we can trade with him. Do various leaders have particular research preferences? Also, (assuming Gandhi is on the same continent as Cyrus), it seems like the sooner we attack Persia the better, since that would be the only way to contain Gandhi on his home continent, right?

 

[Doom Train]

Checking in

I m back after hard exam week. Hopefully i ll get first honor of my life in this semester .

 

[Perugia]

Just a quick note... we do not have a monopoly on the alphabet line, as we've traded it to both Cyrus and Ghandi. they can go down that path as easily as we.

Should we actively try to pick up a religion? Temples and monasteries will give us happiness and culture boosts, not to mention the science bonus from the monasteries...

Yes we traded away the a monopoly on alphabet but they have to complete whatever research they are currently on before proceeding beyond alphabet and that gives us a headstart from which we can gain leverage - that's all.

Only Islam is left and one of the AI just learnt Theology so they only need Monarchy and Divine Right. That's a race we can't win. Better to let one spread to us or capture one. I'd rather not capture an Indian religion though. We must explore explore explore to find where the other religions are.

Agree with you Groin Apologist - but not sure if the leaders have favourite techs. in my limited Civ 4 experience, they definitely like Religions, Machinery & Astronomy in the lower section but do not prioritorise Paper & Printing Press. In the upper section they go for Calendar, Curency and Nationalism but leave Guilds until later. They do like wonders enabling techs.

I find it best just to keep ahead on a specific branch and then when its getting too expensive backfill with the ones they don't prefer.

OK Playing some more right now but will stop in 2 hours to watch the World Cup football.

 

[gskur]

@Doom Train #338
I hope you did well on your exams. Good to have you back!