SGOTM 01 - Fifth Element

gskur · Jun 21, 2006

@Merum #419

Since we need to build military anyway, using MPs for happiness is not necessarily a bad thing. Do cats count as MP? That way we can wait to build macemen instead of building older units.

1) The MPs will have to stay in the cities when our forces make their move on Persia. Therefore we should use the cheapest units available for our MP force: Archers (37 Hammers) or War Chariots (37 hammers)--take your pick.
2) Yes, Cats count as MPs.

Happy Birthday!

BrianS · Jun 21, 2006

@Merum #417 -- I'll be in Taipei the first part of the week and flying to Beijing on Wednesday, 6/28. Where are you in China? It's a darn big place!

Merum · Jun 21, 2006

BrianS said:
@Merum #417 -- I'll be in Taipei the first part of the week and flying to Beijing on Wednesday, 6/28. Where are you in China? It's a darn big place!

Indeed it is. I am currently in Huizhou, Guangdong province. Friday, I will be in Shenzhen, Also in Guangdong. A far cry from where you'll be.

Manufacturing?

BrianS · Jun 21, 2006

Merum said:
Manufacturing?

Software. China is such a lovely place for software given the high regard for IP - NOT!

Perugia · Jun 21, 2006

We just met America and managed to trade for Machinery (Macemen) so I have taken a time-out to discuss our research path. My preference is Optics for Caravels to sink any Persian galleys we encounter and explore where Roosevelt came from. I suggest we follow this with Guilds for Knights & grocers.

Literature 3
Engineering 14
Optics 8
Music 8
Philosophy 10
Guilds 14

Roosevelt has optics so another option is to go for Philosophy and trade it for Optics or alternatively go straight to Guilds and trade that for Optics.

Cyrus will only give 10g for Metal Casting so must nearly have it. He will trade us Polytheism and Compass for Civil Service. Not sure if this is good it all depends if we can unhook his iron before he can reseach Machinery and get any Macemen built.

Spoiler :

gskur · Jun 21, 2006

Optics will require Compass. This needs to be factored in.

We got the war-enhancing techs in the trade: Machinery & Feudalism. Let's do the war-related stuff first: switch to Vassalage, research Guilds, and then Compass->Optics (or trade).

Let's not waist time on more galleys. We can move troops to another continent as we build them (except for the last four uits, and we should ignore Cyrus' galleys.

Merum · Jun 21, 2006

Question: Does this mean we now know everybody, and are therefore qualified to look at the spoilers?

I would go with guilds first. Knights would be nice to have, and they upgrade to cavs! Grocers are very handy as well.

What does anybody think about trying to get liberalism? Do you think there's a chance we can pull it off? That would really be something. Even if we don't the universities we'll get with education will be great for science/culture.

Whichever way we go, we should be looking to trade for optics, rather than research it ourselves.

Perugia: Can you find out if FDR knows Huayna, and if so, what he thinks of him? Ditto our neighbors. What religion does he have? The last thing we want is an American expedition force showing up on our shores. We should sidle up to him, and maybe get him to attack Huayna for us.

Any screens?

Perugia · Jun 22, 2006

I had a rethink overnight. Knights might not be needed to overwhelm Cyrus CA2 Macemen + Cats should do a pretty good job. I like the idea of dashing for Liberalism as it will help us reach the 'New World'. Paper will allow us to buy Roosevelts map and then if we are the first to Liberalism we can take expensive Astronomy as the free tech to get our military over to the other continent with Galleons.

The observatories we get with Astronomy would great for science and cheaper than universities where culture isn't needed.

FDR knows Huayna - I'll check wat he thinks of him and whether we know everyone.

Merum · Jun 22, 2006

We may very well be able to pull off the Liberalism dash, especially if we use scientist specialists to boost research. Agree that Maces/cats will probably be enough to take Cyrus off, and if we can get to liberalism first we may well be unbeatable.

I think we should go for it.

Dolphan · Jun 22, 2006

Agreed, give it a shot.

Perugia · Jun 22, 2006

OK I'll research towards Liberalism. Just about to finishing work now and will go home to put daughter to bed then get back to Civving.....

Perugia · Jun 22, 2006

Here are the rest of my turns. I played 15 to speed things up.

Spoiler :

Summary

A good buildup for war. Loads of Macemen and Catapults built with more on the way.

Byblos suffered an Indian revolt but I rushed artist Valmiki in Memphis and he is ready to go and culture bomb Byblos. This should help.

There are some military on a galley to go and garrison Byblos as there are only chariots there at present. The dyes are in the process of being connected which will allow us to cancel deal with Gandhi.

Alexandria is building a Buddhist Monastery and can follow with a Jewish Monastery for +20% science. I have given all the gem mines to Alexandria so Moscow can focus on production/gold

Paper is due in 2 turns

As part of the military buildup we can swap civics between vasalage/bureaucracy and slavery/serfdom/cast sytem to make use of our spiritual trait. We can change civics in 2 turns from vassalage back to bureaucracy and from caste system to serfdom to boost the economy and start queuing up military again.

@Merum I have some screenies but need some sleep.

Spoiler Session log :

Goodenuf · Jun 22, 2006

Wohoo! Another potential for a wartime turnset. I'm just gettin' lucky, I guess :cool:

I can download and play tonight (3 hours from now), so any input would be appreciated.

Perugia set up a terrific war footing for us. I like some of the techniques used with queuing multiple military units and using short blasts of Vasselage to get them finished. Also, the method to 'rush' the artist. I'll need to remember these ones. These are the valuable details to learn in this type of game.

@Perugia: When you referred to Cyrus offering you 10g for Machinery earlier, then offering more for it later... it was actually Metal Casting he offered 10g for earlier, not Machinery. He must have discovered MC (as you expected him to since the offer was so low), then wanted Machinery next. So, theoretically he can build Maceman now (if he has CS... not sure if he does). That may cramp our attack plans a bit.

Definitely need to get that artist over to Byblos...that should cause a bit of a stir there.

Merum · Jun 22, 2006

Now that we have given Cyrus the ability to build macemen (If he has CS), we're going to need to move quickly so that he can't build up too much. We should have a fast unit available near his iron to cut it off as soon as the balloon goes up.

When we do come down on Cyrus, we should hit his high-hammer cities first. The less productivity he has, the better we'll be. It would be useful to take a speedy unit and do a quick scouting run so that we can see what's in his cities.

In addition to the culture bomb on Byblos/other border cities, we could send a missionary there and build a temple/monastery for cheap culture producers. This should be someplace on the priority list.

Traveling to Shenzhen today, so not much time to post. I have to get packed.

Have we agreed then on 10 turns during wartime, and an optional extra 5-10 during peace? We should define this.

BrianS · Jun 22, 2006

@Perugia - Nice turnset. I really like the way you used the spiritual trait! I must remember that.

@Merum - Good suggestion about 10 turns during wartime, and an optional 5-10 during peace. Also, I think it's time to start considering which of Cyrus' cities to keep. I'm going to DL the save and peek around.

I think this is the current roster:

Goodenuf (up)
Doom Train(on deck)
BrianS
gskur
Dolphan
Groin_Apologist
Merum
Perugia (resting)

Goodenuf · Jun 22, 2006

I have the save now and am investigating the map.

I noticed India has a few Maceman around; glad we don't have to worry about them

We have a Chariot sitting in Persepolis... where's he going to go when we finally throw down the gauntlet? I suppose he ends up in Byblos, which isn't such a bad thing.

The Persian iron source is right in the south, so we'd have to at least have a galley or 2 close by when we declare, so we can get to that spot ASAP and unload right on the iron. There is an open shore square 4W2S of Persepolis where the attack force can sit (at least the force that will go after the iron), so it can quickly jump into position in 2-3 turns (looks like 5 squares to get to the unloading point). The galley (after unloading) can pillage the fish/crab around the capital if we like. Certainly the Iron disconnect is a priority. Not only do we need to disconnect it, we need to defend that square as best we can to keep him from reconnecting it. That may be a challenge. Perhaps this should be the start of our attack? It's a long way from home to ferry units over. He currently has 2 Longbowman, 1 Axe (C1), and an Archer sitting there.

I also see an Incan caravel on the W side of Persia, just south of Gordium. He's obviously found his way over to our side. That will be a real pain for our galleys!

It looks like FDR is willing to go to war with Ghandi... for the right price (which we can't provide right now). At least that's a path available to us.

Sidon is a bit of a thorn for us. We need to take it out since it could be a staging base for a counter-attack from Cyrus. He has a longbowman and and axeman (W1?!) there.

Overall, I'm a little concerned about an attack plan. We need quite a few more maces and cats (no problem to build them). We also need to figure out where to attack.

The capital is the best place for dealing with the iron, but I can't see how we can ferry enough forces there to make it work. We could attack from the north, but the Iron in the south will be a pain to keep him off of. We'd need to send 2 maceman there to defend it, and even then it may be a challenge. That silly Incan caravel will also be a pain to deal with. We have a caravel underway to help out, but she's a ways away from where we need her.

I see getting the GA to Byblos as a top priority. That's a few turns away for sure... he's 5 turns from getting on the boat, then 3 turns to cross the water, and 3 more to get to the city and actually do his thing. Do we wait for this before declaring war?

It will be a few more turns to get enough units build to get an attack going. The 2 galleys can only get 4 units over at once; that may not be enough... especially when trying to go after the iron.

I see the first set of turns used for building units and positioning for attack. I probably won't see war in my turnset

Any and all analysis welcome as to next steps to take. I can play now, but would rather wait for more feedback before proceeding.

BrianS · Jun 22, 2006

Took a look around, and here's what I saw:

Muster
--4 Maces: 1 on MP in Thebes, 1 on MP in Moscow, 1 heading S of Elephantine, 1 on galley
heading to Byblos.
--3 Axes: 1 on MP in Thebes, 1 on MP in Memphis, 1 on galley heading to Byblos.
--11 War chariots: Most on MP. 1 in Persepolis and 1 in Gordium. Not sure where those will go when war is declared.

Military in production:
Thebes: Catapult (2)
Memphis: Mace (4)
Heliopolis: Mace (4)
Moscow: Cat (3)

Suggest switching to archery builds in Alexandria in to replace Maces on MP in Thebes and Moscow.

In 4 turns, we'll have 6 maces (with 1 on MP in Byblos) and 2 cats. Not enough to declare war. Need 2 more rounds of military production.

Great Artist
Should we consider keeping for Valmiki for one of the border cities with Gandhi? I know that Byblos looks bleak, but if we can get the theatre built and start pumping out some culture to keep it alive, we might find the GA more useful in keeping the border cities we take. Susa in particular looks vulnerable.

Civics:
Current: HR, Vassal, Caste, Pacificism
Need to stay course for 2 more turns because we just revolted, then consider switch to: Slavery, Paganism and Bureaucracy - Whip and produce a couple of rounds of military units (1 shy of completion), then switch back to Vassal for completion per Perugia!!

If we switch to Slavery, also suggest whipping the library in Giza.

Worker recommendations:
- Mine grass hill 2N1W of Moscow
- Mine plains hill 2N of Memphis
- Mine plains hill 1S2W of Heliopolis
- Mine grass hill 1S of Alexandria (Aaron to do after clearing jungle)
- Farm forest 1N1W of Moscow to start irrigation chain to Alexandria

Research:
Paper in 2. Then Education to stay on path to Liberalism. No one else that we know has Paper, so Liberalism is still in play for us.

Parting thought: Cyrus does not yet have maces, but does have Machinery. Time is not on our side!!!

Perugia · Jun 23, 2006

BrianS said:
Civics:
Current: HR, Vassal, Caste, Pacificism
Need to stay course for 2 more turns because we just revolted, then consider switch to: Slavery, Paganism and Bureaucracy - Whip and produce a couple of rounds of military units (1 shy of completion), then switch back to Vassal for completion per Perugia!!

If we switch to Slavery, also suggest whipping the library in Giza.

If we switch to slavery this should be short-term simultaneously with vassalage then we should go back to caste system or serfdom while we are in bureaucracy.

Why do you want to switch to paganism? It has greater upkeep than pacifism, admittedly as our army grows this will reverse - but I feel we could stay there at the moment and use the +100%GPPs effect to rush another artist (see below). You are right that eventually we will have to go back to paganism but hopefully only short term.

edit We should by then have traded for Monotheism so we can use our spirtual technique to switch between Organised Religion (buildings/wonders) and Pacifism (GPPs).

Great Artist

I suggest we use Valmiki at Byblos as planned because we will want to capture the former Barbarian city from Cyrus (forgotten the name) and these two will form a nice little enclave. Byblos can then take a time out from culture to build the basic stuff like a granary.

Lets just rush another artist (or 2) the way I did before to keep border cities we take. The culture we gain in our core city doing this will increase our total culture and therefore assist in pushing back Gandhi's border (the cultural battle depends not only on local culture but also on total culture).

Another option as someone said earlier it to leave the weak Persian border cities as a buffer to India until a future war.

Other Thoughts

Agree on BrianS's worker recommendations. The worker farming the irrigation chain from Thebes to the rice can be the one to mine plains hill 1S2W of Heliopolis.

Indeed Cyrus does not yet have the ability to build macemen so we should target his iron.

Don't see the point in pillaging any health resources though in cities that will be ours.

HC caravel will be a pain. Make sure ours complete during turns of Vassalage so we can give them a promotion.

Sidon will be worth keeping if we road to it. This will allow units to embark and disembark in a single turn.

We can't build archers anymore but can still build war chariots to use as mps.

We have a medic axeman that should accompany the force heading to Cyrus's iron. This will also be a good location to send crossbow or two. If the iron is well defended it might be possible to cut the roads from it instead using war chariots using the newer units just to defend them.

BTW forgot to check what FDR thinks of HC (sorry) and also forgot to mention that HC has Guilds!

One last thing. We should not focus so much on Cyrus to forget the bigger picture. At some stage we should buy FDRs map and spare 2 caravels to send one east, one west to explore circumnavigate the world. The +1 movement to ships will greatly benefit and we don't wan't FDR or HC getting it instead.

I'll try to add screenies to my post later but am not rushing this as Goodenuf should have already played his turnset (3 hours have passed).

Perugia · Jun 23, 2006

War plan

Note that when we go to war with Persia we will lose all our lucrative foreign trade routes and need to factor this in as Liberalism and Astronomy are still a long way off especially as going to war will badly affect our commerce.

That said, I agree one force should target the iron. If we start this off in Indian territory there it is only 3 turns march from the Iron. This saves us spreading out our small navy and we can then use a caravel to protect out galleys. The navy can then concentrate around Sidon and Tarsus which as a canal city is great for the navy!

I agree our major force should target the large hammer cities. This should begin in the NE corner and work south down the coast. Tarsus > Arbela > Pasargadae > Persepolis. Galleys can be used for 'end runs' which means 2 units can potentially move 3 tiles when the roads and coast are in the right places ie move by road 1/2 movemetn pt in our territory then, board a galley and move 2 tiles by sea in the Persian territory.

A third force should deal with Sidon, producing a nice base for our navy to ferry units from. This force can then link up with the major force at Tarsus and then take out Bactra to eliminate any Persian culture blocking our trade to India along the north coast. The extra separation of Bactra from India provided by the barrier mountains and desert should hopefully stop it flipping to India until we can culture it up.

A fourth force should defend Byblos or attack the former barbarian city if we can spare the troops.

Some of the roaming chariots can be brought home as mps. Otherwise they need to be placed where they can get macemen support when they are expelled.

Perugia · Jun 23, 2006

Merum said:
When we do come down on Cyrus, we should hit his high-hammer cities first. The less productivity he has, the better we'll be. It would be useful to take a speedy unit and do a quick scouting run so that we can see what's in his cities.

In addition to the culture bomb on Byblos/other border cities, we could send a missionary there and build a temple/monastery for cheap culture producers. This should be someplace on the priority list.

There are already chariots in the area so should be quite easy to implement the scouting of his cities.

Agree about converting border cities to Buddhism by building Buddhist missionaries.

BTW on another topic, missionaries are a good choice to build as an alternative to 4XP military when our mega-cities have filled their queues with military units but we are not running vassalage.

Merum said:
Have we agreed then on 10 turns during wartime, and an optional extra 5-10 during peace? We should define this.

Ooops sorry :blush:

mean't to post that definition since I took an executive decision on 15 turns myself which I expect most of you can buy into based on posts on the issue.

Definition of Number of turns to Play

1. 10 turns during wartime
2. For every 2 turns at peace you can play 1 optional turn up to a maximum of 15 turns
3. If HC is the only leader we are at war with, you can treat any turn where no act of war (fighting, pillaging, capturing workers etc) occurs as a turn of peace.
4. As normal SG convention it is 'good form' to stop early if a key decision coincides with turns 9-15 or you feel your are getting out of your depth but the choice is yours.

SGOTM 01 - Fifth Element

Chieftain

Prince

Permanent Jet Lag

Prince

Prince

Chieftain

Permanent Jet Lag

Prince

Permanent Jet Lag

Warlord

Prince

Prince

Warlord

Permanent Jet Lag

Prince

Warlord

Prince

Prince

Prince

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