SGOTM 01 - Fifth Element

[Merum]

If he wasn't before, Ghandi is certainly now the biggest threat for us to lose this game, and we can't attack him. We will almost certainly face him in the UN vote, and if he is the only remaining opponent, we will lose. If we cannot contain him militarily, he may also cause us to not be able to reach the domination limit.

We need somebody at war with Ghandi, and we need it soon. Here are the options, as I see them:

1. Get FDR to declare on Ghandi. (- Relationship with Ghandi)
2. Get Ghandi to declare on FDR. (Will cost us relationship points with FDR)
3. Get Ghandi to declare on HC. (If Ghandi occupies HC territory we can't get it)
4. Abandon the attack plan on Cyrus, bulk him up by gifting him units and/or techs, and then get him to declare on Ghandi. Then, turn on him after that. (- Relations with Ghandi, Makes Cyrus Stronger, not really a great idea)

IF we can get Ghandi to declare on HC, THEN get FDR to declare on Ghandi, It could work well for us. The downside is that FDR will get + relationship points with HC for being at war with a common enemy.

We still have the wildcard of the unknown civ. We have to be careful with diplomacy now.

Whoever we put at war with Ghandi, they need to be strong enough to take territory from him, so we can then take it from them. I don't see any other alternatives.

Thoughts?

 

[Perugia]

@Doom_train. Firstly let me say this is not a personal attack I'm trying to understand how we as a team can play better and to do that we need to work out how to ensure what is discussed and believe to be a plan by some of us actually gets implemented at all tactical and strategic levels but hopefully without hand-holding.

So to start with I like the idea of a gather point just outside Sidon. But secondly I'd like to know why did you not use our spiritual trait now we have several civics that can be switched ie Vassalage & Bureacracy as was widely discussed.

Also what decisions did you take regarding GPPs & Pacifism. This was all mentioned in the thread but can't see any reference in your log and you don't mention Valmiki by name in the log.

More importantly - What happened to Valmiki in the end. He's included on the list of units, is he dead? I find it hard to understand how you could forget about arguably our most important unit ie a Great Leader!?! Looking forward please confirm if he still in Sidon.

@Merum

If Valmiki is still alive had you thought of immediately sending him with an attack force to Libyan and declare on Cyrus as soon as they arrive. Valmiki can then culture bomb Libyan which will prevent it flipping to Gandhi and remove the resistance. With luck we might get Byblos back as it will still have a high % of Egyptians.

We should by then have enough additional forces shipped across India and close to Cyrus's iron.

 

[Perugia]

I agree with Merum that we need to be careful about diplomacy now and the balance of power so Gandhi can be managed.

As a prerequisite we need to know how big FDR, HC and the unknown civ are to be sure what the best diplomatic way forward is.

Unfortunately we don't seem to have learned any more in the last turn set. We don't even know if anyone else knows paper.

It's imperitive that the next player sees what FDRs map will cost us, sees what techs we can trade for and who thinks what of whom.

How about sending a caravel out exploring in each direction in a circumnavigation attempt?

 

[Perugia]

gskur you are up.

Come up with a turnset to get us back on track

 

[Merum]

Brian's on skip duty right now... gskur was on deck. I recommend we take a deep breath and re-think before anybody plays.

 

[Perugia]

Brian's on skip duty right now... gskur was on deck. I recommend we take a deep breath and re-think before anybody plays.

Thanks I've editted my post to say gskur is up. I'll put a call out for the re-think.....

Everyone please take one step back and discuss strategy

1) what is our long term diplomacy strategy with the AI
2) do we know which power is the major threat
3) should we cancel or amend our plan to attack Cyrus
4) what specific actions do we need to take to make the above clearer

 

[Doom Train]

@perugia #462
Valmiki is at Elephantine. I was planning to transport him by caravel from there. as i remember Caravel was couple of turns away(1-2) when he arrived Elephantine so put him in sleep mode. Then HC s caravel arrived and i forgot Valmiki.

 

[Dolphan]

Calm down guys, we're not losing yet!

@Perugia #466

1) We don't care about relations with Gandhi. He can't declare on us and we want to trade with him as little as possible. So getting FDR to declare would probably be a good idea. He may not do much, but he will distract Gandhi, who will pump out military. We need HC's land to go to us, not Gandhi, so bribing Gandhi to declare on him maybe isn't a great idea. An alternative is to get FDR to declare on HC instead. If we carve up his land between us, then get mutual struggle bonuses with FDR, and possibly butter him up a bit, we would be in a good position if we managed to build the U.N, so long as we find this other civ and make them like us better than Gandhi. Diplo certainly looks more effective than domination at the moment, and I see no real necessity to plan on ever attacking FDR.

2) Gandhi I think, simply on the grounds that we can't attack anyone else. We need to explore.

3) Nope, Byblos wasn't that important. We need the land from Cyrus before Gandhi gets it. One or two more great artists for the borders is still a good idea.

4) Prosecute the war against Cyrus as effectively as possible. Is attacking Libyan and trying to get Byblos back really necesssary? It seems risky and resource-heavy to try and hold on to a little patch in the centre of India. Its never going to do much useful other than deny Gandhi a bit of land, and he's going to get land elsewhere anyway. The other concern is to explore and gather info. Will FDR attack Gandhi/HC? If so, what does he want for it? And who is the remaining civ? How much land do FDR and HC have?

 

[Goodenuf]

Hi all,

Back from an interesting weekend; it's fun spending it with a 5 year old with a broken arm. He was really good about it, actually... a real trooper . One greensticks fracture later (partial break of both bones just below the wrist), and one fluorescent green fiberglass cast for 4-6 weeks makes swimming a no-no on a hot summer's day . That will be the biggest challenge for him. Right now it's a novelty getting it signed by all of his buddies in Kindergarten (2 days left).

Anyway, back to the game. That is a real serious drag about Byblos; it was a major staging point for us and one of our few deterrents for India. My initial reaction agrees with Perugia in that we should attack Libyan early and culture bomb it. My only question is will one city really be effective in pushing back India? With 2 cities I could see it, but with just 1 it may be worth leaving it for India. Perhaps culture bombing from the Persian side (after taking out some of their cities) may be more effective...

Definitely need to get the 2 caravels out to do the E/W circumnavigation. HC is already here, and has a head start on us, so we may already be late. The caravel we just built should head out immediately on a tour. We should build a 2nd one, and use the galley to move our GA over to the Indian/Persian island. Exploring is becoming paramount now.

Long term I think we need to take Cyrus out simply to push back India. We also need to get something we can trade FDR for so he will go after Ghandi. Perhaps Liberalism/Astronomy will get us that (I presume that we select Astronomy for the free tech if/when we get to Liberalism first?).

 

[Merum]

Byblos was very important. It had a happiness resource, and more importantly, served as a buffer against Ghandi's culture and denied him that same resource. Without it, if we take libyan, we will most certainly lose it to culture if we don't do the valmiki gambit as previously mentioned.

If we want to win diplomatic, we have tro be either one of the two largest nations, or build the UN. I don't like taking chances personally, and would prefer to just vote myself in on the first try. This is why I've been pushing for a domination plan. Also, the goal of this game is to do it fastest. We can dominate much more quickly than we can build/win the UN.

I'm thinking we still have to take Cyrus off, or lose the territory to Ghandi's culture. We're going to have to pump artists to keep that territory, though.

I'd like to limit the things that are out of our control. This means getting Ghandi off the map or at least insignificant, because we cannot control him. It also means wiping HC out, because we cannot control our war footing with him.

I like the idea of sending caravels out from both sides. Right now, we're ignorant about half the planet, and that ain't good.

I'd like to post more, but I have to pack. I'm going to be MIA for a couple of days while I travel back to the good ole USA. I hope to return to some good news. See you guys later.

Edited to add thoughts on the topics presented by Perugia:

1) what is our long term diplomacy strategy with the AI

We have to make nice with who's important. Right now we're not sure who that is, so a voyage of discovery is essential.

2) do we know which power is the major threat

Right now Ghandi, HC, and FDR are equal threats, IMO. Mostly because we don't know what we don't know. We need to find out the last civ and get a look-see at the world. See above reference to voyage of discovery.

3) should we cancel or amend our plan to attack Cyrus

we can't trust Cyrus to take care of his cities culturally, and we can't take them from Ghandi, therefore we must take them from Cyrus now. We still need to attack.

4) what specific actions do we need to take to make the above clearer

Explore! We have to know what's out there to have a clear picture of long-term strategy. Otherwise, we're shooting from the hip.

 

[gskur]

Got the save; it's 1202 AD. Might start late tonight, but tomorrow morning is much more likely. Must go now.

 

[gskur]

It takes a lot of time to get organized. We need to do something about it!

Spoiler EXPLORATION :

Do we attempt to circumnavigate? We are probably too late by now---so much time wasted---but if we do, where was the HC’s caravel spotted and when was it? This was mentioned earlier, but I do not remember when and by whom?

Spoiler WAR :

We have 5 galleys now and another 1 in 1 turn, another 2 in 3 turns and another 1 in 5, for the total of 9 galleys (!?). As long as we have them, let’s take a full advantage of the transport.

The Persian capital, Persepolis, and the Iron should be attacked from the ocean with the main force. I will use 6 galleys for this.

Persian Copper by Arabela needs to be taken away as well, also from the sea. I will use the remaining 3 galleys for this.

Tarsus, the one across the strait form us, is the next to be attacked.

I will ignore Sidon, the one on our continent, till the end of Persian empire---it can be contained easily.

I’ll have scouting chariots in or about all Persian cities simultaneously so that I know exactly where he stands. The will retreat to India to the Susa-Bectra border line just before we declare and will start harassing/distracting Cyrus there until our main force comes from the South.

Gandhi is armed to his teeth, but he is +8 with Cyrus and is not going (I hope!) to declare war on him to share in our gain, which is a major blessing! My only discomfort here is that Gandhi might cancel Open Borders with us. This why it is imperative to take Libian right away, or the Persian capital will eventually move there and we will have problems getting to it (if Gandhi closes borders on us---and he will!), and all the cities will want to “join the motherland” so that we will have a horrendously tough time with Indian culture on the border.

Losing Byblos (and Lybian with it?) was a MAJOR disaster, no doubt. I think we should still take Libian and culture-bomb it on the spot. I think us having this nook carved out of Gandhi’s hide is important enough to even go and research, or trade for, Lit(3) and Music(9) so that we could produce culture there. This culture production capability will go well for all the Persian cities bordering India that we are going to eventually take: Cordium, Susa, and Bactra.

Libyan force needs reinforcement. It is not likely to participate in the rest of the war, other then possibly the chariots (those survived and healed): Persian mainland is quite far off.

The earliest well prepared attack is in 13 turns.

Spoiler RESEARCH :

1. I would continue with Education.

2. When we attach Cyrus, I would switch for 2 turns and research Monotheism(2), and change to Organized Religion so that we can build faster in the captured cities. Please note that Persepolis, Pasargadae, and Arbela all have Buddhism (along with Judaism).

3. From WAR section: “I think us having this nook carved out of Gandhi’s hide is important enough to even go and research, or trade for, Lit(3) and Music(9) so that we could produce culture there [Libian]. This culture production capability will go well for all the Persian cities bordering India that we are going to eventually take: Cordium, Susa, and Bactra.” This is what comes after Education-Monotheism-Education.

Spoiler POLITICS :

FDR is ready to war with HC for Paper right now; we can ask for Literature(3) along with it, or the world map... He would not war with Gandhi, though, for whatever reason (FYI, they are +1 towards each other).

The issue here is that FDR is now +1 toward Cyrus and, likely, this will improve because of trade. We need to bribe him into the war with HC before we declare on Cyrus, I think, and while we have something he wants...

Spoiler MISC. :

1) We will need lots of MPs on our own continent when we go to war. The cheapest unit is Chariots, so I will bild some. Also, we get Incense (+1 happy) from Cyrus which we are going to lose---this might need compensation with MPs. We get Dye from Gandhi... with all the implications.

2) Our GNP dropped dramatically around 1100 AD. Anybody knows why?

3) Are we that good with Pacifism as it has been touted here earlier? Units cost us now 32 gold and it will escalate fast, esp. when they are moved out of our borders, esp. when they are moved onto another continent... The only other choice we have is Paganism...

OK, Perugia, I am glad I am entrusted with playing out these few turns. How many should it be now?

OK, Merum, we’ve taken a deep breath. I need some more thoughts on, in the order of importance/urgency:
1) whether to send the 2 caravels off; 2) whether to ask FDR to war HC in exchange for Paper; 3) whether to change the WAR plan I outlined above, and if to change, then how; 4) comment on research are not urgent, but would be nice to have them nevertheless.

I am waiting (will be checking often) for your inputs till 4PM CT, then I’ll play in preparation for the war, about 10-15 turns, and stop before the turn we move on Cyrus (or sooner if anything comes up).

06-27-06 1:16PM CT New questions in MISC spoiler! Some additions to POLITICS

 

[Perugia]

Ok I've finished editting and have to go now. I am not sure if two HC caravels were seen. We definitely saw one and had earlier seen one from our pal FDR!

Spoiler EXPLORATION :

We have a monopoly on paper, the plan would be to catch up with and overtake the AI through buying their maps. It's actually possible to "circumnavigate" without owning a single ship if you trade for the right maps! The 2 caravels are just to fill in longitude gaps not covered by the maps. This game will be a bit harder as we cant buy HC's map.

There's a snag with the politics as if we use Paper to get FDR to DoW now on HC then we scupper the chance that FDR buys HCs map and sells it on to us (at least until they make peace). I'm afraid there's not straight answer to this dilemma we'll have to gamble one way or the other.

There were two mentions of caravel's but I'm not sure if both were HCs. Doom_train saw a HC caravle in the last turnset here. In my turnset I saw a FDR caravel.

Spoiler WAR :

If we can use the galleys to 'launch' the attack at Persepolis so be it. There's nice hills for our attackers to sit on while the spare persian units attack our invasion force adn its the heart of their empire.

Well need some vassalage promoted C1 caravels along for the ride in case someone attacks us. We will get +10% defensive advantage.

I still think part of the main force can be set up in Indian territory just 3 tiles from the Iron. This will free up some galleys for use in a ship chain or other purposes. Like the chariot scouting idea.

I like the idea of using OR to speed building production in cities. I'm sure you had it covered but don't forget to build some Buddhist Missionaries.

Trading for the ability to build culture would be fine by me but I wouldn't want to divert the research path just yet. We can always use Caste System and employ a few artists whilc buildng cultural improvements.

Oh I think you should try to create another Great Artist before Pacifism gets to expensive - although it may already be too late. If we can go from Pacifism to Organised Religion it would be better than useless Paganism (see also MISC).

Spoiler RESEARCH :

I prefer not to deviate from the Education>Liberalism.Astronomy(free) path. A short deviation for Monotheism would be OK if timde for a revolt to Organised Religion and end of resistance in the first captured city.

With luck we might get Monotheism thrown in with another deal before then eg FDR war with HC + Monotheism for Paper might be on the table which would be better. As I said in WAR I'm not too keen on Lit/Music at the moment as there are other ways to achieve this.

Spoiler POLITICS :

The FDR deal is tempting I really want the world map now - can we get Monotheism from him as well. If not from FDR can we get Monotheism from Cyrus before Dow?

Spoiler MISC :

You'll have to check turnlog for GNP I have to go now.

Don't forget to regularly fiddle with the civics to make the most of our spiritual trait.

You can leave pacifism unless want to set up a GP factory somewhere see also WAR above about possible 2nd Artist. If you don't set up a GP factory leave Caste System for Serfdom or even Slavery if the whip needed.

Also fiddle between Bureaucracy and Vassallage with the unit queueing technique.

Spoiler Number of turns to Play :

1. 10 turns during wartime
2. For every 2 turns at peace you can play 1 optional turn up to a maximum of 15 turns
3. If HC is the only leader we are at war with, you can treat any turn where no act of war (fighting, pillaging, capturing workers etc) occurs as a turn of peace.
4. As normal SG convention it is 'good form' to stop early if a key decision coincides with turns 9-15 or you feel your are getting out of your depth but the choice is yours.

I just added the text in blue to that originally defined here and also pasted to the Team Fifth Element Ettiquette and Behaviour thread here

 

[gskur]

(0) 1202 AD
Exchanged maps with Roosevelt. The unknown civ is the Arabian Empire---Saladin. FDR's map 1 FDR's map 2 FDR's map 3 Where is HC?! The only reasonable place for another continent of a reasonable size is, unlikely, South of us (full of tundra) or, likely, East of us, that is N and NE of FDR/Saladin and NW of Gandhi! Note that the equator is between Alexandria and Moscow or the southern border of Huston's tile (an island city). What a sly bastard, this FDR is! He would agree to declare on HC for anything.

Circumnavigation attempt is unnecessary--we've been beat to it. We will need a naval group to go snoop around HC's private continent... later.
Saladin looks weak (6 cities only). We have not met him yet. I am sending a caravel there.
We need to plug a hole W of Thebes. If Gandhi settles there we are screwed! Will start a settler in Giza next turn. Please advise in exact location of the new city.
Switched to Bureacracy from Vassalage for a few turns.

(1) 1208 AD
I’ll be...!!! We’ve circumnavigated the Globe! What a nice map trade that was. Our ships receive +1 movement.

(2) 1214 AD
HC’s caravel showed up 4NW of Alexandria. I started building 4 caravels. BTW, FDR has on HC "you have traded with..." --> he and Saladin must hate each others guts. How can we use this (we will meet Saladin in 2 turns)?

(3) 1220 AD – uneventful

(4) 1226 AD
HC’s caravel did not go for the clam farm near Alexandria, nor did it attack the galley I set up as a bate. It continues NE not entering (?!) our territorial waters. Should I chase it and engage in attempt to stop the exploration?

(5) 1232 AD
HC took off NW. I am not pursuing, just shadowing for now.
Hello, Saladin! There shall be peace... for now. He’s got Lit and Mono, but does not have Construction. I’ll attempt to trade. Nope, he wants CS, just as Mr. Roosevelt does.
He and FDR are +2 with each other. Oh! Then, who is/was that "worst enemy" FDR is still mad at HC to the tune of -4 for trading with?! This is confusing...
Giza has Buddhism.

(6) 1238 AD
Our 5 chariots, a worker, and the Great Artist are in place. Here is what Cyrus has:
.. Libyan: Galley, Horse Archer C2, Horse Archer C1, Spear C1, Archer CD1, 1E of: Worker building Workshop
Following the coast, left to right:
.. Gordium: Longbow, Axe
.. Persepolis: Longbow, Longbow, Axe C1, Archer
.. Pasargadae: Longbow CD2, Longbow CD1, Spear C1, Archer
.. Arbela: Longbow, Axe, 1N1E: Worker just finished building a Cottage
.. Tarsus: Galley, Archer, Settler, Longbow CD1, Spear C1, Spear
On the Indian border, left to right:
.. Susa: Longbow CD2, Spear C1Med1, 1E of: Horse Archer C1, Worker building a Cottage
.. Bactra: Longbow CD1, Spear C1
On our continent:
.. Sidon: Longbow, Axe Wood1, Worker
Switching to Vassalage.
Note of interest: Gandhi knows Democracy and runs Universal Suffrage. He is a runaway train on Cultural graph. How to stop this guy? Cyrus would not fight him. How can we find out whether Roosevelt has Astronomy or not? He’s got Guilds, so he is pursuing the bottom techs.

(7) 1244 AD
Moscow is a Buddhist city now.

(8) 1250 AD
Saladin asked for Open Borders and I accepted.
Found HC 7N of the 4-tile island with Huston on it. Will explore more.

(9) 1256 AD
Continue to explore HC’s coastline.
GP production: Thebes 2 specialists 1E1S (I cannot run 2Es, but we are so close that 1S will not upset the odds too much now), 375/450+16/t, GS 33%, GE 66% This will speed up with Bureaucracy.
I am ferrying another mace and a Buddhist monk to join the Libyan group, ETA 6 turns. After their arrival, the group will consist of 3 maces, 1 cross, 3 cats, and 1 axe medic, as well as 1GA and 1 Monk.
Cyrus upgraded his archers. I wished we had his money to spend!
.. Persepolis: Longbow, Longbow, Longbow, Axe C1
.. Pasargadae: Longbow CD2, Longbow CD1, Longbow, Spear C1
Cyrus has a caravel; it is 2S of Giza. I have 2 new ones coming in from South, to guard our sea-farms there.
The gap W of Thebes is closed due to border expansion. Leonardo has put a couple of turns worth of work in to a pasture there in anticipation of the settlement. Now there is no hurry, so I am pulling him off.

Important: Gandhi does not know Democracy and runs Universal Suffrage due to The Pyramids. He now knows Nationalism and Astronomy.

(10) 1262 AD
Elephantine is Buddhist now.
Cyrus’ caravel took off for the Saladin’s coast.
Aha! The first HC’s city found--and it is his capital, Cuzco. It’s longitude is the same as Mecca’s, and it’s latitude is 1S of Memphis. Pity I cannot pillage the Clam farm. The mace in Iron is C2, there are 3 long and 1 cross in the city, all CD2, in the forest there is a long CD2 and a pike C1Med1. Moving on... Oops! Stumbled into a caravel C1 and a galley 2W of Cuzco. Next turn will tell...


(11) 1268 AD
FDR came asking to exchange maps, but would not trade anything. I refused him.
HC’s naval units fled. I will follow.
Switched to Bureaucracy. It’s still more expensive than Vassalage, but lets us have lots of extra research in Thebes.

CRITICAL POINT! I STOP HERE.
We can war HC now, and so can he.

Current State of the Game
.. Caravel by Elephantine has 4 movement left. Caravel 1NE of Silver North of Memphis has 1 move left and can attack HC’s caravel next to it. Caravel E of Cuzco has 3 moves left and can attack the stack 2W of it.
.. Cyrus’ caravel (the one that seemed to be heading towards Saladin) is back by Giza. Why?
.. Production is not set in Elephantine.
.. The Galley with a mace and a missionary near Bombay could unload the next turn 1W of Bombay. GA is in Libyan, the rest of the group is inByblos.
.. Workboat is parked 1SW of Calcutta.
.. There are 5 chariots and 1 worker (1SW of Bactra) lighting up Cyrus’ domain.
.. The settler is headed to the Moscow—Pi-Ramesses region, towards that neutral tile S of Moscow, just in case a foreign settler shows up.
.. Education is due next turn.
.. GP in Thebes 1:2 GS:GE is 407/450+16/t
.. Our Civics are HR/Bureau/CS/D/Pacifism
.. We have tons of units and need a war. There are enough galleys to move all the non-MP units from our continent in one armada. East or West?

I cannot download the save: the submission service (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php) is down. Will continue trying.

 

[Goodenuf]

Thx for those screenshots... very helpful. I would think HC is N to NE of the Arabian/American continent. That seems to make the only sense here. Nice work with the circumnavigation... a nice surprise.

RE: City W of Thebes: We had talked earlier (quite a while ago now) about the spot on the coast right next to that little river. I don't have a map here, but I believe it is 5 or 6 squares due W of Thebes.

Getting Astronomy will be huge... the ability to have Galleons will be big. We need to keep on line for Liberalism for this.

 

[Merum]

OK, Merum, we’ve taken a deep breath. I need some more thoughts on, in the order of importance/urgency:
1) whether to send the 2 caravels off; 2) whether to ask FDR to war HC in exchange for Paper; 3) whether to change the WAR plan I outlined above, and if to change, then how; 4) comment on research are not urgent, but would be nice to have them nevertheless.

4:12AM after a 35 hour trip, and wide awake. Jet lag sucks.

1. No need to send the caravels off now, keep them close in case HC shows up. Wouldn't hurt to send the one who met Saladin off to find HC's island paradise.

2. Can we get FDR to war on Ghandi? This may already be answered. If not, let him hack away at HC. Either way, war will slow his economy. Barring that, have you checked to see if you can get FDR to declare on HC "For a good friend"?

Caveat: It would be nice to see HC's lands, so that if FDR gets carried away, we can ask him to stop. We don't want our little proxy war to become manifest destiny for los americanos...

3. I like the war plan. Go with it. Just make sure we have enough cats, because those longbows will eat our macemen for lunch.

4. I'd prefer to stick to the liberalism path, and try to trade for whatever else we need right now. IF we can get Galleons significantly sooner than others, and IF we can get effective troops across to HC, we can take some cities and establish our own foothold over there before FDR grabs it all.

As stated before, the only way to slow Ghandi is going to be to get somebody at war with him. Can we at least get somebody to stop trading with him? That would be a start...

I favor a city site next to the river that doesn't crowd Thebes too much... I think Thebes already shares too many squares... And what about the area SE of Moscow? Do we have that covered? The progress page is down, and I can't get a save. :/

I think the GDP drop is associated with the switching of working citizens to artists and scientists by Perugia. Not sure 100% though...

Side note: We know everybody now, and I believe we can read the spoilers. I'm going to wait for a mod to confirm, though.

 

[Perugia]

Hey We've circumnavigated the Globe! with a map trade not a map purchase. As Goodenuf put it a nice surprise. I would have said nice one gskur (or is it nice +1) .

Spoiler finer points :

As we traded I wonder if FDR also gets the bonus or maybe just us 'cos a) it was our turn and/or b) we had paper, he didn't . I suggest you keep an eye on the speed of FDRs ships just to be sure.

That +1 movement will really help in the cat & mouse shadowing of HCs navy. It should also allow one caravel to go and snoop on HCs island paradise in the proposed location a bit earlier than you thought before. If HCs navy is encountered over there a lone caravel can outrun anything he has. I like your tactic of using galley bait to try and get his 'scout' in our waters to attack to give us decent odds.

Please keep us informed of the POLITICAL situation, who has modifiers with whom for traded with the enemy and so forth etc. This is one of my weaker areas so I am following closely your analysis.

None of the Persian garrisons looks too strong at the moment with only single CD2 longbows. As long as we have catapults to handle the city defenses and where necessary weaken the longbow, the spears and archers will be mincemeat for our Maces.

Civics: you mention switching to vassalage (obviously to coincide with military unit construction) but what's happening with the Labor and Religious civics.

Spoiler GPPs :

Great People/Specialist: Are we running any specialists and planning our next Great Person (cost 450), if so what are the chances of each type and where is the GP farm. Another Great Artist could help subdue the Gandhi culture pressure on Persian cities we capture from the Indian border.

Some time ago someone mentioned leaving the (2) Persian cities on the Indian border in the hands of Cyrus. We could do this and might get some tech or gold from Cyrus in exchange for peace. We can then redeclare once we have built 2 Great Artists to culture bomb these cities. I think this combined with building culture and or cultural buildings is the only way to hold back the tide of Indian culture.

This interlude would give us time to build a Great Engineer to rush the Forbidden Palace in Persian territory and reduced maintenance from the newly captured cities plus provide a modest culture boost.

One more thing. Filling the gaps with new cities is fine by me if there is a real risk of Gandhi founding there. However we're going to have fund the added maintenance from somewhere, this is worth it to resist the Indian Guru though. Trouble is I don't know enough about AI habits to know if this is likely to happen myself and rely on everyone else in the team for advice. I would say that we should check that none of our nearby cities culture is about to expand and remove the immediate need to found there.

One sneaky thing we could do to overcome the doubt is to build the settlers and move them into place but not actually found the cities unless Gandhi actually disembarks a settler on our continent. This way we only pay maintenance on 2 settlers instead of 2 cities! We'd have to ensure everyone on the team knew what the setters were supposed to be doing!!!!!!

 

[Perugia]

4:12AM after a 35 hour trip, and wide awake. Jet lag sucks.

Welcome back. I bet your ready to enjoy a good

 

[Merum]

One sneaky thing we could do to overcome the doubt is to build the settlers and move them into place but not actually found the cities unless Gandhi actually disembarks a settler on our continent. This way we only pay maintenance on 2 settlers instead of 2 cities! We'd have to ensure everyone on the team knew what the setters were supposed to be doing!!!!!!

This is an interesting idea, but I think we should consider this: We're going to have to pay the piper sooner or later, and the effects of a city on GNP are exponential throughout the game. The sooner a city is founded, the more it contributes in the long run. A city founded as close to Thebes as the river site to the W should have very little maintenance cost due to its proximity to the capital, yes? For cities farther away, such as SE of Moscow, this may in fact be a viable alternative. I'm not sure how to really calculate the maintenance costs in advance, so I'm not sure how much of a hit we'd take.

If Ghandi knows astronomy then there's not much point in us taking it with Liberalism... we'll need to re-think the tech strategy... Now we need something we can trade for astronomy, and we can't afford to piss Ghandi off til we get it.

I am absolutely ready for some quality sleep... just can't seem to get any. Coming back is far worse than going, and the longer my trips are, the worse it is. I guess I'll have to tough it out.

With the discovery of HC's location, I am now completely confident we meet the spoiler criteria. I'm going over for a look, can't resist anymore.

Today is my wedding anniversary (20) so I'll likely not be around much tonight.

 

[gskur]

@Merum 479

If Ghandi knows astronomy then there's not much point in us taking it with Liberalism... we'll need to re-think the tech strategy... Now we need something we can trade for astronomy, and we can't afford to piss Ghandi off til we get it.

This does not mean Gandhi knows Liberalism.