SGOTM 01 - Short Straw

[ungy]

Nice going LMToops--seems like we are on plan.

We actually got some very important info on your turns--ranking of tech. There is no civ more advanced than Cathy that we haven't met. I think that has the following long term implications:

Based on score unless HC goes on a conquest spree Gandhi rates to be #2 in pop. So I don't think we can get a diplo without pretty much conquering the rest, at which point we probably get to domination anyway.

PA w/Gandhi. Pretty basic but hadn't thought of it before--we must be at peace to get DA so we must conquer HC before we can even start the process. (Unless rules are different for always war). As HC is significantly more advanced than the unknown AI, and also a pretty big army builder, probably we can take out the rest if we can take him. So going peace and waiting and hoping for a PA is probably a loser. So if we don't think we go that route relations with Gandhi less important--obviously we want to keep him trading but I don't see how we get either the vote or the PA

 

[Lmtoops]

I don't under stand why Ghandi is unwilling to trade. We have a great trading relationship, no close borders, he is ahead of us in all respects). I thought surely he would loosen his hold...but no.

I hoping that Cyrus will get some gold before we trade alphabet, but we can't afford to wait too long.

We also need to spread Buddahism. I have the two Buddahist cities producing missionaries. I think in Rostov, I started building a Court House, but changed to the missionary after 2 turns. I figured our larger cities could use the 25% production bump on buildings.

 

[ungy]

Some thoughts on our position:

I think we have enough military. I would propose a moratorium on building units until we have a more pressing need. I would build commerce and research buildings before barracks.

Research: As CS is such a huge economy booster, it makes sense to bump our research and spend down our cash to get it quicker. We can get in 3 turns with higher research. Assuming we go towards astro after that--I think we can trade eventually for Drama and Music. Seems like getting some caravel scouts out is important now.

In general I would try and work fewer hammers and more commerce and growth since we have some happy to spare. Some cities need a little MM--(Moscow). I'd reiterate my pitch for HG in Thebes.

I still think we're better off waiting on Cyrus--he is so weak we can easily get him later and is a dead end. So we land a dozen units there when we get rifles or gren and just march over him. No need to trash our economy before then.

 

[Lmtoops]

Nice going LMToops--seems like we are on plan.

We actually got some very important info on your turns--ranking of tech. There is no civ more advanced than Cathy that we haven't met. I think that has the following long term implications:

Based on score unless HC goes on a conquest spree Gandhi rates to be #2 in pop. So I don't think we can get a diplo without pretty much conquering the rest, at which point we probably get to domination anyway.

PA w/Gandhi. Pretty basic but hadn't thought of it before--we must be at peace to get DA so we must conquer HC before we can even start the process. (Unless rules are different for always war). As HC is significantly more advanced than the unknown AI, and also a pretty big army builder, probably we can take out the rest if we can take him. So going peace and waiting and hoping for a PA is probably a loser. So if we don't think we go that route relations with Gandhi less important--obviously we want to keep him trading but I don't see how we get either the vote or the PA

I think we can maintain a golden reputation with Ghandi, but still go the domination route. If Ghandi offers accepts a Permanent Alliance (PA), then all the better. We do not have to have a Defensive Alliance to get the PA; it just helps the relationship score.

 

[ungy]

I don't under stand why Ghandi is unwilling to trade. We have a great trading relationship, no close borders, he is ahead of us in all respects). I thought surely he would loosen his hold...but no.

I think there is good chance that he will --of course we still need to get something he wants. I'm generally slow to trade CS, but in this case I'd probably let it go.

 

[Danthor]

Uuuu!!! so I get to kill Catherine personally...

 

[ungy]

I think we can maintain a golden reputation with Ghandi, but still go the domination route. If Ghandi offers accepts a Permanent Alliance (PA), then all the better. We do not have to have a Defensive Alliance to get the PA; it just helps the relationship score.

I did not know that--I have limited experience playing PA. My understanding also is that if we get the PA, we count his territory for our control, which would be huge. Seems like we want to keep relations as good as possible with Gandhi--will only be an issue I think when he asks us for gifts

 

[RobertTheBruce]

Some thoughts on our position:

I think we have enough military. I would propose a moratorium on building units until we have a more pressing need. I would build commerce and research buildings before barracks.

Research: As CS is such a huge economy booster, it makes sense to bump our research and spend down our cash to get it quicker. We can get in 3 turns with higher research. Assuming we go towards astro after that--I think we can trade eventually for Drama and Music. Seems like getting some caravel scouts out is important now.

I originally thought it would be good to roll over Cyrus and grab the resources but I'm more inclined now to wait. I think Caravels up would be a good idea.

Looking at the victory screen, we have 198 land tiles in our cultural boarders now for 15.22% of the land mass (1300 total land tiles). Ghandi is the biggest civ and has 18%, Cyrus about 8%. The numbers for the three other civs aren't going to add up to close to 100% unless they are all almost as large as Ghandi which is very unlikely. H.C. is probably big but the other two are behind us in techs and we've been warmongering. I think there may be a large unsettled land mass waiting for the first civ to astronomy to colonize.

So, I would agree that focussing on the economy, teching up, and trading with Ghandi and Cyrus is probably the best path.

Edit: thinking further, I'm not sure if we can infer anything about the size of unknown civs from the victory screen. That info has probably been hidden like the 5 greatest cities. The tech based argument still holds.

 

[Grogs]

I don't under stand why Ghandi is unwilling to trade. We have a great trading relationship, no close borders, he is ahead of us in all respects). I thought surely he would loosen his hold...but no.

Mostly, it's because he thinks he has a monopoly on those techs. As soon as anyone else discovers one, he will probably be willing to trade. He's also trying to build some of the wonders associated with those techs, so that makes him less likely as well. I've found that a lot of the time +11 relations is a magic breakpoint with AI attitudes, so if we can develop them to that point he may open up some more.

As for teching, I was hoping we could use a Great Scientist to research Astronomy for us, but I looked at my chart again and I don't think that's possible. Paper, Education, and Printing Press all rank higher on the Great Scientists' agenda than Astronomy. Optics still ranks higher than paper, so we could get Optics from a Great Scientist after we have discovered Metal Casting->Machinery->Compass (as long as we don't have paper first.) I'm not sure how long that tech will take once we get there though, so it might be a waste.

I think we have enough military. I would propose a moratorium on building units until we have a more pressing need. I would build commerce and research buildings before barracks.

I agree with you, with the exception of replacing our city garrisons with better defenders as they become available. We can use our downtime to ensure our homeland is secure and only have to focus on attack forces when the time comes.

Research: As CS is such a huge economy booster, it makes sense to bump our research and spend down our cash to get it quicker. We can get in 3 turns with higher research. Assuming we go towards astro after that--I think we can trade eventually for Drama and Music. Seems like getting some caravel scouts out is important now.

Good idea.

In general I would try and work fewer hammers and more commerce and growth since we have some happy to spare. Some cities need a little MM--(Moscow). I'd reiterate my pitch for HG in Thebes.

I agree about the MM. Same for Thebes - it will take for ever to grow at +2 fpt, so we should switch off that forest to a FP farm. More citizens = more cottages worked. And speaking of Moscow, it has a ton of forests we can chop to rush things (same with Novgorod.) Any suggestions on what we should chop-rush with them?

Edit: thinking further, I'm not sure if we can infer anything about the size of unknown civs from the victory screen. That info has probably been hidden like the 5 greatest cities. The tech based argument still holds.

I'm pretty sure that the land areas in the victory conditions screen are accurate. The only thing that wouldn't be accurate would be our nearest competitor. Even if one of those 2 civs had a bigger empire, more population, etc than Ghandi they won't show up until we meet them.

Speaking of other civs, I'm thinking one of them is a religious nut, i.e., someone like Isabella. That's just a guess based on the fact one of the unknows founded Hinduism, the Hindu holy shrine, and possibly Stonehenge and the Parthenon.

 

[RobertTheBruce]

Speaking of other civs, I'm thinking one of them is a religious nut, i.e., someone like Isabella. That's just a guess based on the fact one of the unknows founded Hinduism, the Hindu holy shrine, and possibly Stonehenge and the Parthenon.

True, the two very low tech civs suggest no trading by the unknown civs. It would be fortunate if we found another continent with Isabella or Saladin glaring at Toku with one Hindu and the other Jewish. I would bet against Saladin since there haven't been many GPs in unknown lands.

This also suggests that H.C.'s capital has been engineered like Ghandi's was. He's a good trader but that's not how he's teching. I'm curious to see the layout of the rest of the world. The other civs are on separate islands or there is a religious impasse. If there are separate Hindu and Jewish civs, a diplomatic win will be very hard.

 

[Danthor]

I've opened the save and although I can't play right now, I will in a few hours.
Just to let you know, I found some "inefficiencies" in (some) cities' managements. I'll fix that. We'll gain +7 gpt and lose 4 rpt (research) but only for 2 turns (because I've hastened the food growth in Heliopolis, I think, don't remember the exact city right now), then we'll get them back + 4rpt and in another turn, even more.
Also, I'll start by trading Meditation from Catherine for Literature. Gandhi already has it and Cyrus needs Alphabet before getting it so she won't be able to trade it.
There is an axeman being built at Moscow and that will be the last one since I think we have too many troops. At least for now that the plan is vanquish Russia and stop the warring.
Then hopefully I'll set foot for starting a profitable and nice tech Empire.

What do you think?

PS: do we stay at 15 turns per play, or we go back to 20 after war?

 

[Grogs]

True, the two very low tech civs suggest no trading by the unknown civs. It would be fortunate if we found another continent with Isabella or Saladin glaring at Toku with one Hindu and the other Jewish. I would bet against Saladin since there haven't been many GPs in unknown lands.

This also suggests that H.C.'s capital has been engineered like Ghandi's was. He's a good trader but that's not how he's teching. I'm curious to see the layout of the rest of the world. The other civs are on separate islands or there is a religious impasse. If there are separate Hindu and Jewish civs, a diplomatic win will be very hard.

Or those two are on the same continent and they've been tearing each other apart for the last 2000 years.

What do you think?

Sounds good. I'd check with Cat before you declare and verify she hasn't researched anything new. If she has, see if we can get it before she dies. Also, like I said, I'd go ahead and give Cyrus alphabet. I don't think it hurts us at all and may even help if he researches music or drama and is willing to trade later on.

PS: do we stay at 15 turns per play, or we go back to 20 after war?

Let's stay at 15, the idea being everyone will most likely get 3 turns at the wheel.

 

[Danthor]

Dammit, I forgot to ask if we were going to keep Yaroslavl or not. I guess raze it since it is in a crappy site (4 tiles shared with Novgorod, 2 Mountains, no useful water tiles).

 

[mushroomshirt]

Dammit, I forgot to ask if we were going to keep Yaroslavl or not. I guess raze it since it is in a crappy site (4 tiles shared with Novgorod, 2 Mountains, no useful water tiles).

Razing was Lmtoops' plan (I think I read his post right this time ). Razing Yaroslav seems smart to me too.

 

[Danthor]

turn 80 - 575 DC

The Rice SSW of Thebes reassigned to Gizeh. The mined grass-hills SWW of Moscow reassigned to Rostov.
Alexandria set to work coast so it can grow.
Unloaded warchariot 1 from galley. Sent 1 galley to E of mountains so it will be able to see beyond when we get Optics.
Traded Litarature to Catherine for Meditation and 40g. 9 turns to Civil Service.

turn 81 - 590 DC

Gandhi's Golden Age ends
Novgorod's borders expand.

turn 82 - 605 DC

More micro-managing. CS ready in 6 turns. +7 gpt.
Memphis finishes Library, begins Granary (6 turns).
St. Petersbourg finishes courthouse, begins granary (6 turns).
Pi-Ramses finishes lighthouse, begins archer (3 turns)
Moscow finishes Axeman, begins Coliseum (15 turns).
Elefantine grow to size 9. Unhealthy 1.

turn 83 - 620 DC

Moved more units to Novgorod.

turn 84 - 635 DC

St Petersbourg grows to size 8. Rostov grows to size 6.
Ptolomeo is born in Delhi (Gr. Scientist).

turn 85 - 650 DC

Finished Archer in Pi-Ramses, begun Marketplace (38 turns, 4 t to grow). Move archer to Rostov, arrive in 5 turns.
A forest NE of Memphis grows on the tundra!

turn 86 - 665 DC

Gizeh borders expand
Gandhi adopts Vasalaje & Serfdom.
Budist Missionary finished in Rostov, continue Courthouse. Miss. goes to Memphis.
Moscow grows to size 4.

turn 87 - 680 DC

zzz

turn 88 - 695 DC

Heliopolis grows to size 9.
Gizeh grows to size 2.
Finished researching Civil Service, started Compass (8 turns).
Changed civics to Burocracy and Caste System. Prev. maint. was 44gpt, now 51gpt. Earning
Memphis finishes Granary, begins Courthouse (13 turns).
St. Petesbourg finishes granary, begins Marketplace (15 turns).
Changed research rate to 40%. Now Compass in 6 turns, +8 gpt.

turn 89 - 710 DC

Elefantine grows to size 10. Unhealthy 2.
Pi-Ramses grows to size 7.
Thebes grows to size 12. Finished Aqueduct, began Hanging Gardens (8 turns).
Memphis grows to size 10. Budist Missionary arrives and spreads Budism. People start to grow fat and thoughtful Switched from Courthouse (9 turns) to Bud. Miss. (4 turns).
Peacy treaty with Cathy ends!!! ñaka ñaka
+10 gpt, +108 rpt
WAR with Russia! -2 gpt now.

turn 90 - 725 DC

Colossus built in a faraway land.
Moscow grows to size 5.
Alexandria grows to size 3.

turn 91 - 740 DC

Gandhi asks for CS. NO!
Moscow finishes Coliseum, begins Marketplace (25 turns).
Gandhi finishes Notre Dame in Yung-Nu.
Cathy takes Axeman with combat I out of Yaroslav, leaving it with only 2 archers (1 with garrison I) and a worker. WTH?!?
Warchariot 1 attacks and kills him with 50% chance oif success! Darn, I was hoping to lose so I'd attack with Warchariot 6 and win the last exp. point to get to level 5.
Killed archer[Garrison I] with Swordsman[Raider 1&2].
Sent Axeman with no promotion as cannon fodder and it loses! Last Archer is down to 1,4 hp.
Warchariot 6 attacks and slaughters!!! Obtained 103 gold from the pillage of Yaroslavl and reazde it after capturing all the beautiful women
Russia is vanquished!

turn 92 - 755 DC

Back to +10 gpt, 108 rpt.

turn 93 - 770 DC

Novgorod grows to size 3.
Memphis trains Bud. Missionary, continues work on Courthouse. Miss. goes to Thebes.

turn 94 - 785 DC

Completed research on Compass. Begin Metalworking (7 turns).
Budism spread in Thebes.
Novgorod finishes Bud. Missionary, begins Granary (11 turns). Goes to Moscow.

turn 95 - 800 DC

Cyrus adopts Hereditary Government.
Budism spreads in Moscow.
Danthor II reign comes to an end.

Savegame turn 95 - 800 DC

edit: ups! I forgot the roster:

Grogs
Mushroomshirt
Lmtoops
Danthor - Just Played
RobertTheBruce - Up
VirusMonster - On Deck
llib_rm
Ungy

 

[RobertTheBruce]

Nice job Danthor

I have the save and here are my first thoughts.

Well, I'm not going to declare on Cyrus but I will give him alphabet as has been previously suggested. I'm suprised Cathy hadn't traded it to him. Hopefully, he'll research Drama or Music for a trade. I will continue toward Optics (complete Metal Casting and then begin Machinery). I don't think I'll need Drama before the next war since we control our continent and don't need to pop any borders.

Looking at the power graphs, it looks like Ghandi and H.C. have both run out of land to expand. Do we want to move the settler from Moscow to prepare for a preemptive city build near the cows if Ghandi sends a settler?

I need to learn more about peaceful building and expansion so any comments would be appreciated. I will finish linking a farm chain to the rice for irrigation and cottage around Moscow and Giza. There is one FP farm east of Thebes I plan to replace with a cottage now that we are running Bureaucracy. Memphis is working one river, grassland town which I will switch to Heliopolis since Memphis will stay production oriented without multiplier buildings. Switch merchant in Elephantine to scientist (focus GPP on GS). Any other thoughts, comments?

building plans:
Heliopolis: Finish market, lighthouse, harbor
Memphis: Finish courthouse, spam missionaries, forge
Thebes: Finish HG, monastery, forge?
Elephantine: Finish NE, Harbor, Courthouse
Giza: Finish LH, granary, CH
Pi-Ramses: Finish Market, CH
St. Pete's: Finish Market, Harbor, forge
Rostov: Finish CH, granary, harbor
Moscow: Finish market, library
Novgorad: Finish Granary, CH, forge?

I would like the forge in Thebes to run an engineer but I'm wondering if this is still the right strategy. Are there any additional wonders we really want to use a GE to build (assuming the GL will be finished soon)? I see Memphis as our primary military production city and St. Pete's as a hydrid secondary production facility. (Heliopolis too later) Any other cities which should get forges as a priority? Should we avoid the health hit in Thebes to get more citizens? Should I chop around Novgorod for a third production city or save the trees to rush a wonder later?

 

[Danthor]

I need to learn more about peaceful building and expansion so any comments would be appreciated.

Always be aware when a city grows a new inhabitant. I know this is hard without HOF but it is essential.
Make we should keep track of which cities are with the auto-citizen on and which off. I was micromanaging a few cities to make them grow to near their limit fast, without taking out too much from prod & sci/commerce.

I will finish linking a farm chain to the rice for irrigation and cottage around Moscow and Giza.

Yes, I was doing that too.

There is one FP farm east of Thebes I plan to replace with a cottage now that we are running Bureaucracy. Memphis is working one river, grassland town which I will switch to Heliopolis since Memphis will stay production oriented without multiplier buildings. Switch merchant in Elephantine to scientist (focus GPP on GS). Any other thoughts, comments?

building plans:
Heliopolis: Finish market, lighthouse, harbor
Memphis: Finish courthouse, spam missionaries, forge
Thebes: Finish HG, monastery, forge?
Elephantine: Finish NE, Harbor, Courthouse
Giza: Finish LH, granary, CH
Pi-Ramses: Finish Market, CH
St. Pete's: Finish Market, Harbor, forge
Rostov: Finish CH, granary, harbor
Moscow: Finish market, library
Novgorad: Finish Granary, CH, forge?

I'd put harbor before Market (lol, I thought it was Marketplace as in Civ3). It gives more health and better trade routes.

I would like the forge in Thebes to run an engineer but I'm wondering if this is still the right strategy. Are there any additional wonders we really want to use a GE to build (assuming the GL will be finished soon)?

Yes, if we get it right we might be able to get Sixtine Chapel, or save it for Spiral Minaret. Hmmm, we should keep track in here of the built Wonders as well.

I see Memphis as our primary military production city and St. Pete's as a hydrid secondary production facility. (Heliopolis too later) Any other cities which should get forges as a priority? Should we avoid the health hit in Thebes to get more citizens? Should I chop around Novgorod for a third production city or save the trees to rush a wonder later?

Be aware that forge gives -1 health, so take this into account before growing cities too much.

 

[Grogs]

Good job Danthor. Looks like you got to do the last warmongering we'll be doing for a while.

Gandhi asks for CS. NO!

Was that a demand? We didn't get a negative hit for that. Somebody slap Ghandi around and tell him we'll *trade* it to him.

Warchariot 6 attacks and slaughters!!! Obtained 103 gold from the pillage of Yaroslavl and reazde it after capturing all the beautiful women

Unless someone can tell me for sure we'll still be able to build West Point no matter what happens to that unit, we need to treat it as a national treasure and keep it nice and safe in Thebes for the duration.

I need to learn more about peaceful building and expansion so any comments would be appreciated. I will finish linking a farm chain to the rice for irrigation and cottage around Moscow and Giza. There is one FP farm east of Thebes I plan to replace with a cottage now that we are running Bureaucracy. Memphis is working one river, grassland town which I will switch to Heliopolis since Memphis will stay production oriented without multiplier buildings. Switch merchant in Elephantine to scientist (focus GPP on GS). Any other thoughts, comments?

Remember this mantra, population is power. The faster we can grow our newly built/acquired cities, the faster we can work more cottages/mines/etc, and the faster our economy will grow. If we can do that and build a lot of cottages for those citizens to work, our economy should be roaring, and hopefully able to support new off-continent cities by the time we get to Astronomy.

I'd definitely go ahead and bump research up to 50-60%. We've got enough excess gold to run at 60% through machinery and probably halfway through Optics. And that assumes our economy won't improve during that time, which it most certainly will.

We can also re-negotiate that deal with Cyrus and see if we can't get 4gpt for our cattle rather than 2.

building plans:
Heliopolis: Finish market, lighthouse, harbor
Memphis: Finish courthouse, spam missionaries, forge
Thebes: Finish HG, monastery, forge?
Elephantine: Finish NE, Harbor, Courthouse
Giza: Finish LH, granary, CH
Pi-Ramses: Finish Market, CH
St. Pete's: Finish Market, Harbor, forge
Rostov: Finish CH, granary, harbor
Moscow: Finish market, library
Novgorad: Finish Granary, CH, forge?

We've got 3 CH's built and 2 due in the next 9 turns, so we should get working on that 6th ASAP so we can build the FP. We can build it in Thebes if we need to - it's more about the savings from the FP than the savings in an individual city. Moscow is best for right now and it has lots of trees we can chop to help it along, though if we think we may need to do a palace jump in the future, St. Pete may be better. Last time I thought about a palace jump I was only 2 techs away from State Property though, so we may never need to worry about it.

After HG, we'll have about all the health we're going to have for a while - grocers will give us +1 for sugar when we eventually get guilds, but that's it and I don't see any other health resources Ghandi or Cyrus will be willing to trade.

Thebes has plenty of hammers and once NE is built I'm not sure we'll ever build another GP there unless we slow Elephantine down, so I'm not sure a forge is all that necessary there. We can just let it stagnate itself out at 15-6 and use all of the cottages in the area. We probably can't afford to chop those 2 forests in the west anyway and I think that's about all of the cottagable tiles left there.

Elephantine I think I'd stop it growing at size 12-3 and assign all the citizens possible as specialists. I definitely wouldn't build a forge there.

Heliopolis, on the other hand, I think can definitely afford a forge. We can add another 5 health there easily and with all the mountains/desert/tiles shared with Memphis, it should be able to work every available tile and still stay healthy.

In general, I'll say it before ungy does... cottage, cottage, cottage. After those workers finish the chains to the rice, we've probably built about all of the farms we ever need to build on this continent. Catherine apparently never read the 'Catherine cottage spam' article, so the Russian cities could use a lot. They all have enough food to work a few mines, so I'd cottage every other grassland tile down there.

By the way, does anyone know why that irrigation chain won't pass through Rostov to the rice? I've been trying to figure out since Civ4 came out why irrigation will sometimes pass through a city and sometimes not.

 

[Danthor]

Was that a demand? We didn't get a negative hit for that. Somebody slap Ghandi around and tell him we'll *trade* it to him.

Yup, a friendly request.

By the way, does anyone know why that irrigation chain won't pass through Rostov to the rice? I've been trying to figure out since Civ4 came out why irrigation will sometimes pass through a city and sometimes not.

Because it won't pass through hills like in civ3, and Rostov is on a hills.

 

[RobertTheBruce]

A very quiet set of turns. Lots of infrastructure building

Workers - cottage, cottage, cottage, and then for something different build another cottage


Turn 0 800 AD research to 50% -25gpt

Turn 1 815AD zzzz

Turn 2 830AD Thebes: Hanging Gardens -> Monastery
Heliopolis: Market -> Lighthouse
Elephantine: National Epic -> Harbor

Alphabet to Cyrus for 20 gold
Cancel cow to Cyrus: Cow to Cyrus for 4gpt -19gpt

Turn 3 845AD Rostov: Courthouse -> Granary -13gpt

Turn 4 860AD Silver discovered near Thebes
Send worker to hook up
Extra commerce for capital and trade with Ghandi!

Turn 5 875AD Metal Casting -> Machinery
Thebes: Monastery -> Missionary (Elephantine just grew and is unhappy)
Harkuf is born in Dehli
Ling Lum is born in a far away land

Turn 6 890AD Thebes: Missionary (to Elephantine) -> Courthouse (6th for Forbidden Palace)

Turn 7 905AD Memphis: Courthouse -> Missionary
Moscow: Market -> Library
Giza: Lighthouse -> Granary
Buddhism spreads in Elephantine

Turn 8 920AD St Pete: Market -> Harbor
Hypathia is born in Elephantine, build academy in Elephantine
Silver traded to Ghandi for 4 gpt
research to 60% = -18gpt

Turn 9 935AD Ghandi switches to Bureaucracy and now he will trade techs

Turn 10 950AD Memphis: Missionary (to Heliopolis)-> Missionary
Heliopolis: Lighthouse -> Harbor
Novogorod: Granary -> Courthouse

Turn 11 965AD Machinery -> Optics
Thebes: Courthouse -> Temple (unhappy with next growth)
Pi-Ramses: border expands
Buddhism spreads in Heliopolis

Turn 12 980AD Ghandi optics, H.C. optics

Turn 13 995AD Pi-Ramses: Market -> Courthouse

Turn 14 1010AD Thebes: Temple -> Missionary
Memphis: Missionary (Pi-Ramses) -> Forge

Turn 15 1025AD Thebes: Missionary (St. Pete) -> Missionary
Elephantine: Harbor -> Temple
Moscow: Library -> Forbidden Palace
Giza: Granary -> Forge
Buddhism spreads in Pi-Ramses

Elephantine is about to grow and become unhappy again, I forgot to turn off growth so I'll leave it to VirusMonster. I have a question about no growth. For the current Elephantine +5fpt maxed health and happy, if we grow we will produce an unhappy citizen and begin filling the granary at +2fpt. The extra citizen is nonproductive and has a cost due to city maintenance (function of size and distance from capital) and civics (proportional to total population). So, say -2gpt and +2fpt is the tradeoff for an unhappy citizen in Elephantine. We are trading 14 gold for 14 additional food in the granary which would grow Elephantine again 3 turns faster. When a city will be stagnent with the unhappy citizen or starving (immediately lose the citizen without a granary) I can see that no growth is an obvious choice. I've always just stayed in slavery and whipped unhappiness but this is a good way to expand my game. Do people who regularly use no growth have an idea of what is the tradeoff point for faster growth vs gold, am I missing anything else in the no growth vs unhappy equation?

Edit: I suppose the best choice is to switch from a farm to a specialist to delay the growth but the question still remains. Its another problem of the whipping crutch, I forget about the unlimited specialists for caste system. Avoiding whipping, does it ever make sense to grow to an unhappy size or does micromanagement always suggest avoid growth?

Roster:
Grogs
Mushroomshirt
Lmtoops
Danthor
RobertTheBruce - Just Played
VirusMonster - Up
llib_rm - On Deck
Ungy

Save Game:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/Short_Straw_SG001_AD1025_01.Civ4SavedGame