SGOTM 01 - Short Straw

[RobertTheBruce]

I remember having my production queue changed when I lost a required resource. This may have been the result of, or has recently changed in, the 1.61 patch. I don't recall. But, do not be surprised if they pillage the iron and we are left with Axes until the iron is mined again.

Still the same in 1.61. We don't want any swords in production if we use the iron to lure Cat's stack. If they end a turn with a unit on the mine, we will lose the production.

A little bit of planning will be required although losing a bit of production and getting Cat to declare may even be the better strategy. Should we make some arrogant demands when we are ready?

 

[mushroomshirt]

Here is my summary of a bunch of posts & my quick take:
1) should we Raze or keep Rostov? I probably won't be faced with this decision in my 15 turns, but I'm thinking keep it.
2) rush barracks in Heliopolis? I'm for it
3) Switch from compass to CS path? I'm actually for going to currency first, it can really help our economy with the extra trade routes & we can get it in 10-15 turns.
4) War? should we bait Cathy or declare on her? Based on the power graph I don't think Cathy will declare - we are pretty high up and she is low. I'm in favor of declaring after building at least 2 catapults & 4 swords to march on Rostov. I think this may happen during my turns, so is everyone OK with that? I would first get rid of Cat's stack in our territory with our existing army.

Other thoughts that I'll throw out there for discussion...
* should we found a city near the sugar? Since we have calendar we could use the happy. If we found it, where should it go?
* should we trade rice to Gandhi for silk? We would lose health but gain happy.
* Should we switch to working farms in elephantine to grow the pop for the great scientists? Do we want another type of GP?
* What do people think about pop rushing a courthouse in St. Pete's? I'm on the fence on this. I think currency or working another couple of cottages could equal the gold savings we would get from the courthouse.

 

[Grogs]

Here is my summary of a bunch of posts & my quick take:
1) should we Raze or keep Rostov? I probably won't be faced with this decision in my 15 turns, but I'm thinking keep it.

I'd say keep. I'd like it one tile NW, but it's probably not worth the effort of razing it and building another settler just for that.

2) rush barracks in Heliopolis? I'm for it

Me too. Actually, the only reason I didn't rush it on my turns was because I was waiting for it to get down to 1 pop. If we get to keep all the overflow (42 hammers) then I'd rush now. I just wasn't sure.

3) Switch from compass to CS path? I'm actually for going to currency first, it can really help our economy with the extra trade routes & we can get it in 10-15 turns.

Nothing wrong with currency, and it would get us +14 commerce right now, +20 after we take 3 of Cat's cities. The only knock I could see with it is that it's something the AI's usually go for, though if I were going to guess I'd say Ghandi is going for music first so we can probably beat him to it.

4) War? should we bait Cathy or declare on her? Based on the power graph I don't think Cathy will declare - we are pretty high up and she is low. I'm in favor of declaring after building at least 2 catapults & 4 swords to march on Rostov. I think this may happen during my turns, so is everyone OK with that? I would first get rid of Cat's stack in our territory with our existing army.

She was definitely sizing up our iron and I thought an attack was imminent at least twice during my turnset. There's no harm in making a demand and seeing if it won't incite her to attack, but I wouldn't waste many turns trying to make that happen. If she doesn't attack, let's go get her.

As for battle plans, I'll sum up my thoughts in two words: screw Rostov! Don't march on Rostov, march on Moscow. Moscow is her center of gravity and taking it out means she's pretty much finished. Follow-on forces can reach Rostov and take it quickly, or our main force can sweep back after they've secured Moscow and taken the copper out. We don't want her building defenders in Moscow while we're busy securing Rostov.

EDIT: One thing (that I guess I forgot to mention in my turnlog): I made a deal with Ghandi, cattle for wheat on the last turn. The only reason he made that deal, actually, was because a barb axeman pillaged the cows by Calcutta, so he'll probably cancel it after 10. In any case, we probably need to wait 10 turns before we declare on Cat. Otherwise, it will close our trade routes with Ghandi and get us a rep hit for cancelling before 10 turns are up.

Other thoughts that I'll throw out there for discussion...
[1.]should we found a city near the sugar? Since we have calendar we could use the happy. If we found it, where should it go?
[2.]should we trade rice to Gandhi for silk? We would lose health but gain happy.
[3.]Should we switch to working farms in elephantine to grow the pop for the great scientists? Do we want another type of GP?
[4.]What do people think about pop rushing a courthouse in St. Pete's? I'm on the fence on this. I think currency or working another couple of cottages could equal the gold savings we would get from the courthouse.

1. I wouldn't right now. The gems will be online in 4 turns and we'll get sugar in Moscow after it grows once. I'd keep the settler poised for now and found the city either when we're more secure financially or when someone moves a settler toward that spot.

2. No. We're getting 2 health from the rice and frankly, we need all the health we can get with the FP's we have. We can make that trade after we get the 2nd rice in Rostov.

3. I think we're doing OK there. We can pick up a clam next turn, then a farm, then another farm. I'd like to grow it rapidly to max size (will be 8 after the gems) and then assign 2 scientists. For more than 2, we'll need to switch over the caste system. We may even want to let it grow to 9 or 10 so we'll have a couple of citizens we can use to pop-rush the national epic.

4. Probably not until we're nearly done warring with Russia. A CH will take 4 citizens even after 1 turn of building and I don't think we can afford that loss of production right now. If there's one thing I've learned in my warring, it's to keep building military until the war is through. Nothing is worse than realizing you've come up short and having to stop the war.

BTW, one thing that's probably worth doing once or twice during each turnset is cottage rotation. If we've got a city that's working 4 towns, but also has 4 unworked cottages in its radius, it's worthwhile to swap a couple of citizens to cottages to start developing them. It hurts us a little bit short term, but once the city is large enough to work all of them, we'll get that commerce back and then some by already having hamlets/villages/towns for the next citizen to pick up.

 

[Danthor]

Rostov is crap, I say raze it.

 

[Lmtoops]

Rostov is crap, I say raze it.

Where would you place the new city, to replace Rostov?

2) rush barracks in Heliopolis? I'm for it

Me too. Actually, the only reason I didn't rush it on my turns was because I was waiting for it to get down to 1 pop. If we get to keep all the overflow (42 hammers) then I'd rush now. I just wasn't sure.

I thought we only needed 1 citizen to rush the barracks. If we need 2, then I would wait until 1 citizen is needed.

 

[ungy]

as for war strategy--I would build lots of cats and march straight to Moscow with a stack. They are great for the hill city--a couple of collateral damage hits really softens up the defense. Plus you don't even lose all the cats--some retreat. Memphis can build a unit every 2 turns and between the rest of the cities is currently almost that. I would leave enough to deal with the stack near us--they will go attack when war starts--is much easier to get them that way and send the rest straight to Moscow. rest will be easy

I would keep Rostov--not worth rebuilding and if we don't we might see Gandhi there.

the 10 turns to wait I think is important tho--pretty well fits with build strategy anyway

 

[mushroomshirt]

OK - so the other things that I am hearing now are:
1) attack Moscow first. If we do this, i will probably want more like 4 catapults and 4 swords before declaring, so I may not get to war before my 15 turns, but we'll definitely have a great attack force!
2) wait at least 10 turns before declaring war. Probably not an issue if I build more cats. I wonder what would happen to our Gandhi relations if Catherine declared war?

I'm sorry to report that I've already made one minor mistake. While looking at the save yesterday, I accidentally hit 'enter' and ended the turn (I mistakenly thought I was at a city screen) - I was initially thinking that this was not a big deal. But I think in the spirit of the rules I should play from the auto-save.

I'm not sure what the research path was set to when I did this so it could be a wasted research turn if we decide to go a different direction.

Does anyone know how picky AlanH & the rest of the staff are about multiple sessions? I will have to reload that turn from the auto-save - will that raise any red flags with the staff?

 

[Grogs]

I'm not sure what the research path was set to when I did this so it could be a wasted research turn if we decide to go a different direction.

Does anyone know how picky AlanH & the rest of the staff are about multiple sessions? I will have to reload that turn from the auto-save - will that raise any red flags with the staff?

The only language I've seen was to the effect of too many sessions in one turnset. I definitely wouldn't think 2 or 3 would fit that definition, especially as we get later into the game.

 

[mushroomshirt]

3. I think we're doing OK there. We can pick up a clam next turn, then a farm, then another farm. I'd like to grow it rapidly to max size (will be 8 after the gems) and then assign 2 scientists. For more than 2, we'll need to switch over the caste system. We may even want to let it grow to 9 or 10 so we'll have a couple of citizens we can use to pop-rush the national epic.

Any thoughts about pop-rushing GL first before HE? Nobody has built that, right? We might be better off pop rushing the lighthouse and growing the city as fast as we can to pop rush these wonders rather than working the hammers.

 

[Grogs]

Any thoughts about pop-rushing GL first before HE? Nobody has built that, right? We might be better off pop rushing the lighthouse and growing the city as fast as we can to pop rush these wonders rather than working the hammers.

I'm not quite sure I'm understanding you... the Great Lighthouse has been built. The Great Library has not. For the library, we need 525 hammers and the most we could feasibly pop rush would be 225 (5 citizens) so we'd still need to come up with at least 300 hammers the hard way. It would take us about 35 turns to manage that in Elephantine, but we'd have to be working both mined hills, which would mean we'd be growing slower and fewer citizens to rush. I also don't like rushing (much) in my GP city. You lose specialists and pop GP slower. The only other thing I might consider worthwhile to pop rush in Elephantine would be the National Epic because getting it faster would make up for the temporary loss of a specialist.

 

[mushroomshirt]

I'm not quite sure I'm understanding you... the Great Lighthouse has been built. The Great Library has not. For the library, we need 525 hammers and the most we could feasibly pop rush would be 225 (5 citizens) so we'd still need to come up with at least 300 hammers the hard way. It would take us about 35 turns to manage that in Elephantine, but we'd have to be working both mined hills, which would mean we'd be growing slower and fewer citizens to rush. I also don't like rushing (much) in my GP city. You lose specialists and pop GP slower. The only other thing I might consider worthwhile to pop rush in Elephantine would be the National Epic because getting it faster would make up for the temporary loss of a specialist.

I was talking about the great library. I was thinking the scientists would be good in the GP city. I agree on pop rushing heroic national epic for sure. Unless someone else actually thinks rushing the great library is a good idea, I'll just stick with HE National Epic build after lighthouse.

edited because I mean national epic, not heroic. Probably part of the confusion.

 

[mushroomshirt]

I thought we only needed 1 citizen to rush the barracks. If we need 2, then I would wait until 1 citizen is needed.

Right now heliopolis has 1 unhappy. I usually like to pop rush 2 in this case because even with the ruishing happiness penalty, we get back to no unhappy in the city. Once we get gems we can grow again. Do you still think we should only rush at pop 1 cost?

 

[mushroomshirt]

Good news! We have moscow! Bad news - well, maybe none but our economy is not so hot even with currency. Here is the blow-by-blow:

Turn 176, 140 AD
Unfortunately, my little screw-up with the enter key cost us one turn researching compass. Per my earlier post, I'm worried about our economy so I switch to currency. Memphis builds a swordsman, I switch to catapult build. Wow, Memphis produces units fast! Maybe the invasion force will be ready in 10 turns. Pi-ramses builds granary, I set build to barracks. I pop rush barracks in Heliopolis and lighthouse in Elephantine (both 1 pop). I switch Elephantine over to working the clam instead of the mine for now. I turn on avoid growth in Heliopolis and Memphis. Since Memphis is producing units so fast, I change Thebes from working the grassland hill mine to the floodplains cottage. I switch Alexandria to work the silver. Just not sure if it is worth it to grow before the granary is built.

Turn 177, 155 AD
Elephantine builds lighthouse, I switch to national epic. I move a worker to chop that forest near there (not doing us any good at .5 health). Heliopolis builds barracks I start on catapult. Catherine is bringing two axes and a spearman back to her own territory from near the iron.

Turn 178, 170 AD
Catherine cancels open borders! The two axes and a spearman pull back to neat moscow so that leaves Cat with 2 archers and a chariot near the iron. Should be easy pickings when it comes time for it. Mine on the gems is finished so I remove avoid growth on Memphis for one turn.

Turn 179, 185 AD
Memphis grows to size 8 - I turn avoid growth back on. I move the worker near St. pete to the hill jungle square alone to clear jungle next turn. Maybe Catherine will take the bait?

Turn 180, 200 AD
Zoroaster is born in a distant land. Thebes and Memphis both build catapults. Gandhi has drama now so it is probably a good thing we switched to currency. I move the chariots and spearman away from the iron to try to bait Cat there, too.

Turn 181, 215 AD
Christianity founded in a distant land (probably from the prophet last turn). Plato born in a distant land.

Turn 182, 230 AD
Another cat built in Memphis. I switch over to swordsmen. Heliopolis and Thebes will build cats soon for a total of 6 - a pretty good invasion force I think.

Turn 183 245 AD
Imhotep (engineer) born in Delhi. Delhi is a hell of a city by the way with stone, marble, pigs, copper and silk! Catherine also has Theology now.

Turn 184 260 AD
Nothing much to report here. Next turn will declare on Cat. Thebes switches to research (unit costs are really sinking the economy so this is more to avoid building troops than anything else)

Turn 185 275 AD
Declare on Cat. Take out the pasture first, then take out the stack near the iron with 3 swords. This didn't seem to cancel our trade agreement with Gandhi so I guess I could have declared earlier? Right now I have a 3 pronged attack - 1) chariot, axe, spear just pillaged horses. These guys will meet up with 2) 3 catapults, sword and 2 axes that will camp outside moscow and start bombarding. 3) I sent 2 chariots to try to pillage the copper. Not sure those guys will make it...

Turn 186 290 AD - must have messed up a date somewhere, oh well.
Moscow has 1axe, 1chariot, 3spears and 2 archers w/ +60% defense. Rostov has 2archers and +40% only. Still heading for Moscow and ignoring Rostov (for now). No battles this turn. Thebes on avoid growth (pop 9)

Turn 187 305 AD
Not much to report. No battles, catapults in position.

Turn 188 315 AD
Catapults hit moscow down to 33% defense. pillage chariots are within 1 space of copper. It is defended by an archer. Avoid growth is on in St. Pete's. Thebes comes off of research since currency will be discovered next turn. Goes back to building swords. Memphis builds a galley so that we have a few ready to go get Cyrus.

Turn 189 ?? AD
Currency is discovered. We get some moderate relief from our economic woes. I switch to civil service. One of my pillaging chariots was killed by an axeman, but the other one killed two archers and still survived. Unfortunately, he died trying to take out the archer guarding the copper. Oh well, that was a risky venture anyway. Cat also attacked our catapult stack with an axeman, no loss on our side, though. Moscow is bombarded down to 6%.

Turn 190 350 AD
Moscow down to 0. I attack with the other 3 catapults. I lose 1 but all 3 do some serious collateral damage. Moscow is taken quite easily after that with no other lost units.

Here's the save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/Short_Straw_SG001_AD0350_01.Civ4SavedGame

Currently, "avoid growth" is on in:
Memphis
Heliopolis
Thebes
St. Pete's

Roster...
Grogs
Mushroomshirt - Just Played
Lmtoops - Up
Danthor - On Deck
RobertTheBruce
VirusMonster
llib_rm
Ungy

 

[Lmtoops]

Well I'm up next and it will be some exciting turns. Although mushroom has set me up very nicely, great set of turns It was a good stroke of luck that 2 of 3 catapults survived their attack...that rarely happen to me unless I have Flanking promotions.

It's late, so I won't even look at the save until tomorrow. I plan to play Monday night, so that's plenty of time to get feedback from anyone . I'm not the greatest warmonger, so I'll definitely take any advice.

 

[Grogs]

Good job Mushroomshirt! We're rolling Cat back and it's just a matter of time until she's finished.

Delhi is a hell of a city by the way with stone, marble, pigs, copper and silk! Catherine also has Theology now.

Holy crap! No kidding. Talk about an engineered city. I moused over the floodplain/wheat and saw 7 food and my jaw nearly dropped. No wonder that little sucker is teching away so quickly.

One thing that's hurting our economy right now is the lack of foreign trade routes. It's really odd that we can still trade resources, but we lost our foreign trade routes. Once we take Rostov, they should be reestablished and that will help our economy a bit. Also, once we finish with her our away costs will go away, helping even more. We can also start building CH's and maybe a couple of Markets now. Our economy is beginning to groan a bit under the military costs and I think we have plenty to finish off Cat. The only city I would have continue to build military (after the current builds finish) would be Memphis: we're going to need a fair number of galleys for an assault on Cyrus.

I would like to see those 'avoid growth' buttons turned off though for a few reasons. 1. Military support is based on population, so even angry citizens help to lower that cost. 2. Sugar will be hooked up shortly, so the number of citizens we can support can increase. 3. We're still running slavery, and those angry citizens are great at rushing projects.

For the next set of turns, here's how I think I'd play it:

• Put all the injured troops in Moscow to heal. We need a medic there, so if we've got a WC/axe/spear, promote him to Medic I.
• March the remaining troops (there are plenty) on Rostov and capture it. This will reopen our foreign trade routes as well as let our re-inforcements reach her southern 2 cities quickly.
• March the victorious forces, along with healed troops from Moscow south and take out her last 2 cities, keeping Novgorod and razing the other one.
• Work on economy building and prepare for our next war with Cyrus. We'll have extra gems once we finish. I suggest we trade them to Ghandi for dye. We'll build theaters eventually and the dye will be worth +2 happiness then. With any luck we'll also be able to trade sugar for another of Ghandi's resources. We may have to walk carefully here though. The only reason we were able to trade cattle was because a barb axe pillaged Ghandi's cows, so he may cancel it once he gets them hooked back up.
• After Civil Service, I think we should tech towards Optics/Astronomy. We've sent a galley about everywhere it's possible to go right now and it looks like we'll need the techs to reach HC. The first two techs along the way (metal casting, machinery) are useful and will get us maces/crossbows. If we pick up compass along the way as well, great scientists should be able to research Optics and (part of) Astronomy for us as well.

By the way, I forgot to check when I looked at the save and I'm not at my Civ computer anymore. Did we get a diplomacy hit with Ghandi when we declared on Cat? She has Theology, which would be nice to get, but if I would only consider that if we didn't get another penalty with Ghandi. I could care less about hits against Cyrus... we'll be racking those up shortly with the 'you declared war on us' and 'this war spoils our relationship' penalties.

EDIT: One more thing. We've got a WC with 16/17 experience. It would be great if we could heal him up and get him to win one more battle (a 100% odds battle preferably.) If we can do that, promote him so we can build West Point later on. I've been told that in 1.61, he doesn't even have to be alive anymore, we just have to have had a level 5 unit at some point. Can anyone confirm that? It would be nice not to have to put our most experienced unit away for protection.

 

[mushroomshirt]

We can also start building CH's and maybe a couple of Markets now. Our economy is beginning to groan a bit under the military costs and I think we have plenty to finish off Cat. The only city I would have continue to build military (after the current builds finish) would be Memphis: we're going to need a fair number of galleys for an assault on Cyrus.

You're 100% right. I was shocked at how easy it was to take Moscow. Other cities will be cake, we don't need more military right now. In fact, we might just want to switch from military units (except galleys) to infrastructure right away.

I would like to see those 'avoid growth' buttons turned off though for a few reasons. 1. Military support is based on population, so even angry citizens help to lower that cost. 2. Sugar will be hooked up shortly, so the number of citizens we can support can increase. 3. We're still running slavery, and those angry citizens are great at rushing projects.

One thing - right now none of the cities with avoid growth have hit max food. I just threw them on avoid growth so I didn't get an unhappy citizen when I didn't expect one. All those cities have been micromanaged so their growth is pretty slow. I haven't tried purposely to get unhappy citizens before so that's a new one on me. Maintenance costs go down with more population?

• Put all the injured troops in Moscow to heal. We need a medic there, so if we've got a WC/axe/spear, promote him to Medic I.
• March the remaining troops (there are plenty) on Rostov and capture it. This will reopen our foreign trade routes as well as let our re-inforcements reach her southern 2 cities quickly.
• March the victorious forces, along with healed troops from Moscow south and take out her last 2 cities, keeping Novgorod and razing the other one.
• Work on economy building and prepare for our next war with Cyrus. We'll have extra gems once we finish. I suggest we trade them to Ghandi for dye. We'll build theaters eventually and the dye will be worth +2 happiness then. With any luck we'll also be able to trade sugar for another of Ghandi's resources. We may have to walk carefully here though. The only reason we were able to trade cattle was because a barb axe pillaged Ghandi's cows, so he may cancel it once he gets them hooked back up.
• After Civil Service, I think we should tech towards Optics/Astronomy. We've sent a galley about everywhere it's possible to go right now and it looks like we'll need the techs to reach HC. The first two techs along the way (metal casting, machinery) are useful and will get us maces/crossbows. If we pick up compass along the way as well, great scientists should be able to research Optics and (part of) Astronomy for us as well.

There is a sword with medic one although he is not in Moscow yet...

I like an optics beeline after CS. Elephantine is set up to build great scientists, so I like using them to research towards astronomy while our caravels explore and we get other good infrastructure techs that are available before Astronomy (education, liberalism, paper, printing press?)

What about leaving Cat with one city in an attempt to get theology?

By the way, I forgot to check when I looked at the save and I'm not at my Civ computer anymore. Did we get a diplomacy hit with Ghandi when we declared on Cat? She has Theology, which would be nice to get, but if I would only consider that if we didn't get another penalty with Ghandi. I could care less about hits against Cyrus... we'll be racking those up shortly with the 'you declared war on us' and 'this war spoils our relationship' penalties.

I didn't see a diplomacy penalty and this surprised me. I thought we would at least get "you attacked someone of our religion" penalty.

 

[Lmtoops]

I noticed that after we take Rostov (I can't even screw that up), we can adopt Buddhism. It would not be any immediate help, since we cannot get the production bonus in any other cities. We may want to spread Buddhism around before we switch.

Ghandi was not upset with our war declaration, we have no negative relations with Ghandi.

 

[mushroomshirt]

I noticed that after we take Rostov (I can't even screw that up), we can adopt Buddhism. It would not be any immediate help, since we cannot get the production bonus in any other cities. We may want to spread Buddhism around before we switch.

Ghandi was not upset with our war declaration, we have no negative relations with Ghandi.

I don't see the down-side to switching right away. All other civs we have contact with (except HC) are Buddhists so we'll only improve relations with them.

 

[Grogs]

We also have Organized Religion (if we can afford it!) so we can build missionaries without having to build a Monastery first and get the +25% bonus for buildings - like the CH's we'll need to start building very soon.

Since Cat and Ghandi apparently aren't 'friends' what do you guys think of giving her a 10-turn peace in exchange for theology? It's not something that would be on my high-priority research list, but it gives us a great warmongering civic (theocracy) and if Ghandi loosens up on his techs we can possibly trade it to him for metal casting.

 

[ungy]

War with Cyrus?

Everyone seems to assume that we will keep rolling after Cathy to conquer Cyrus. I want to give it a serious discussion as I think it is a major strategic error.

The case for a quick war with Cyrus basically boils down to the following:

1. Our objective is fastest domination or diplo so why wait?

2. Cyrus has some useful resources and four of our cities can grow much bigger quickly if we had them.

I make the following counter-arguments for waiting:

1. Cyrus is weak and will not improve. He will always be way behind and can be disposed of fairly easily later.

2. We gain significant benefits from having him around to trade with. There is a limit on how many cities can trade with a foreign city so his are useful to us. We can also trade tech with him as we are likely on a different tech path than the AI as well as sell him obsolete techs--I would start by selling him monotheism assuming he pays 120g for it.

3. If we attack him we will gain the following: Persopolis, Tarsus, Pasargade,Arbela. Bactra, Gordium, and Susa must be razed (Gordium and Susa too close to Gandhi). We get the following resources: wine, crab(2), silk, incense. However, we will have sugar to trade as well as cow and rice to Cyrus so I think we can get the crab and silk if we watch the trade screen when he gets his extra hooked up.

4. Last but most important WE CANNOT AFFORD THESE CITIES. Until we get FP they are just way too far and will totally crash our economy. Even with FP they are still very far if we put it in Moscow--not sure where else we put it--that's subject for another discussion.

There is still the possiblity that we might want to go diplo if HC or someone else has more pop than Gandhi. Gandhi is unlikely to attack Cyrus but there could be a larger AI out there. If so, we have decent chances to get a diplo which we jeapordize by getting the DOW on my friend and eventually close borders w/Gandhi. Gandhi also expands into the vacuum we leave and adds to his pop.

Since we cannot win the game without astronomy, we have time to go after Cyrus. He will be longbows when we are gunpowder and will go down very quickly. What is critical for us now is to get our economy up and running after the Cathy war and get a few caravels out to scout and get on the path to astro. I think we lose a HUGE amount of time by attacking Cyrus there.

If we end up taking out HC (which I think likely) we will need a large, advanced force. HC builds a lot of units and his gunpowders have the extra promo.

As far as our economy goes, I've said it before but I'll say it again--cottages, cottages, cottages. We should cottage over all our farms--they were good to jump start growth but now the cities are developed they're not worth it.

Cities--I would keep Rostov and Novgorod. I would raze Yaroslavl. By the time Cyrus gets there I think not enough for him to settle. So I go Rostov, Novgorod, Yaro.

I would use the settler to settle N of the mountain SE of Thebes. While we usually wouldn't want to add cities with our economy shaky I make the following case:
this will be a reasonable commerce city eventually. It can work FP that elephantine is not currently working (and maybe the clam) to help it grow fast. with the 2 trade routes and a couple of cottages it probably breaks even as it is close to thebes. So it will be profitable in maybe 20-30 turns and will not hurt too much from turn 1. As we are looking at a fairly long time to astro, it will surely win for us big by then and we will have a nice income stream from it going forward.

We might already have enough units with our current production for Cathy-- I think Moscow was pretty much curtains for her.

I would also consider Hanging Gardens in Thebes:

1. We need an aquaduct there eventually anyway. If we get beat to HG the $ at double hammers is worth it. +1 health is useful, and we will have 10 or 11 cities that grow--that is pretty darn useful. So no waste on production and we don't have anything critical in Thebes now (marketplace and colosseum are useful I agree). Adding to our GE in Thebes is more useful now that we lost GL. We've also got some happiness coming on line--sugar and sugar to trade for dye w/Gandhi --ungy