SGOTM 01 - Short Straw

[ungy]

Peace w/Cathy for tech. I'm not sure why we didn't get the -1 but it might make sense after Rostov of course. Novgorod is expensive and doesn't really do that much for us now. Is likely that relations improve between Gandhi and Cathy over time w/ same religion so we probably lose it next time. I would probably say not worth it but not sure--relations with Gandhi seem pretty key--possible PA down the road, diplo, etc. so every 1 in relations is important and I'm not that big a theo fan. Can trade for it later.

 

[Grogs]

Ungy:

What you're saying about Cyrus make a lot of sense to me. If we won't be capturing Cyrus's resources right away, we may need to make drama a bit more of a priority. Outside of our top 5 cities, our happiness cap is still fairly low (6), so a theater and maybe 10% on the culture slider will do wonders. We'll easily make up the gold lost from a notch of the slider with 2 more citizens in each city. Speaking of drama, Moscow might be a great spot to build the Globe theater. It can grow really big, really fast, and it has a ton of hammers.

There are a couple of areas where we don't see eye-to-eye though, namely:

- Theocracy. I think it's a *huge* tech for a warmonger. The difference between being able to land a stack of city raider2 maces and catapults with accuracy vs. CR1 maces and 4xp cats is huge. Plus, one of the big advantages of Egypt is that we can swap in and out of civics at will. We can switch to Organized Religion, build libraries/markets/CH's or whatever, then switch to Theocracy when we're in go-to-war mode. If we can get the tech for free, and maybe even trade it for another one, I think it's worth the risk of a -1 with Ghandi.

- Farms. While I agree we need lots and lots of cottages, I think there are times and places for farms. For example, if the city is short on food. All those cottages don't do you much good if the city is too small to work them all, or doesn't have the hammers to build the markets/banks/universities to really take advantage of that. I also think it's always worthwhile to build an irrigation chain to wheat/rice/corn (like the rice S of Thebes.) Also, if we've a city that has the potential to produce a *lot* of hammers, it doesn't make sense to me to make it a mediocre commerce/mediocre hammer city instead. That city can help us produce an invasion force rapidly when we need it. If it runs out of things to build, it can build wealth instead.

One thing - right now none of the cities with avoid growth have hit max food. I just threw them on avoid growth so I didn't get an unhappy citizen when I didn't expect one. All those cities have been micromanaged so their growth is pretty slow. I haven't tried purposely to get unhappy citizens before so that's a new one on me. Maintenance costs go down with more population?

I don't purposely try to grow them, I just don't do anything to avoid them. I've looked at it in a lot of games and my conclusion is that having an unhappy citizen is at worse equal, and possibly superior to stopping the growth.

The unit support costs are based on population, so a bit more population will reduce that cost a bit. On the flip side, civic costs are based on population as well, so more pop means more in civic costs, so the actual saving for a few extra population probably aren't all that much.

 

[ungy]

There are a couple of areas where we don't see eye-to-eye though, namely:

- Theocracy. I think it's a *huge* tech for a warmonger. The difference between being able to land a stack of city raider2 maces and catapults with accuracy vs. CR1 maces and 4xp cats is huge. Plus, one of the big advantages of Egypt is that we can swap in and out of civics at will. We can switch to Organized Religion, build libraries/markets/CH's or whatever, then switch to Theocracy when we're in go-to-war mode. If we can get the tech for free, and maybe even trade it for another one, I think it's worth the risk of a -1 with Ghandi.

I agree with you there--I just find that I only have to hurry to get it if I'm planning a war in that era. If I'm looking at gunpowder units, then I've usually picked it up in trade. That was the situation I was assuming here.
I agree we get extra value here as we are likely to be able to trade it for something. Hard to assess the cost of -1 w/Gandhi--I don't have enough experience with PA and diplo. My guess is that we should be able to get to friendly soon enough. Another possibility is get theo, and see if Gandhi might declare on Cathy in exchange for it (when we're ready to redeclare, of course). Anyway I think a close call so no big deal either way

 

[ungy]

Ungy:


- Farms. While I agree we need lots and lots of cottages, I think there are times and places for farms. For example, if the city is short on food. All those cottages don't do you much good if the city is too small to work them all, or doesn't have the hammers to build the markets/banks/universities to really take advantage of that. I also think it's always worthwhile to build an irrigation chain to wheat/rice/corn (like the rice S of Thebes.) Also, if we've a city that has the potential to produce a *lot* of hammers, it doesn't make sense to me to make it a mediocre commerce/mediocre hammer city instead. That city can help us produce an invasion force rapidly when we need it. If it runs out of things to build, it can build wealth instead.

Again I agree about the farms--but look at our cities. Rarely do you see so much food and more FP than we can work at size 8. We are limited here by economy--we are not even working most of the farms. I think when war over we will be lucky to break even at 50% research. That tells me we need more commerce. Building wealth is a poor tradeoff--2 hammers/1 gold is a pretty weak tradeoff. Every city doesn't have to get all the buildings--they're pretty expensive anyway. --ungy

 

[mushroomshirt]

The case for a quick war with Cyrus basically boils down to the following:

1. Our objective is fastest domination or diplo so why wait?

2. Cyrus has some useful resources and four of our cities can grow much bigger quickly if we had them.

Another reason in the "pro" column is that we need to block Gandhi from picking up Cyrus' cities. Now Gandhi is usually peace loving but most civs are opportunists and Gandhi is a heck of a lot stronger then Cyrus. Since we can't go to war against Gandhi directly, containing him to his present borders may be the next best thing.

There is still the possiblity that we might want to go diplo if HC or someone else has more pop than Gandhi. Gandhi is unlikely to attack Cyrus but there could be a larger AI out there. If so, we have decent chances to get a diplo which we jeapordize by getting the DOW on my friend and eventually close borders w/Gandhi. Gandhi also expands into the vacuum we leave and adds to his pop.

Unless planned carefully, there is a strong chance if we go for diplo it could be us vs. Gandhi in the vote. We can't weaken him directly, we can only contain him & bribe other civs to declare on him. All other civs we can take out and we will definitely want to take out HC. Looking at how nicely Gandhi has been set up (see Delhi's fat cross!) I would guess that Gandhi and HC have been given a few advantages over the other civs. I bet even with careful planning it will be tough to get a civ other than Incas & India to be 1st or 2nd when it comes for the UN vote. I guess what I am trying to say is that diplomatic relations with Gandhi are nice, but I don't think they will help us win because chances are he will end up voting for himself at the UN no matter how positive he is about us.

I totally agree with you on the economy. Foreign trade routes, building courthouses & markets should help a little. We are set for production cities so we don't need any more of those. If we cottage Rostov, Moscow and Novgorod & turn them into commerce cities this should help too. If we get desperate in the short term we can switch to caste system for merchants - this might be a good idea anyway while we are capturing Russian cities since we can use artists while the city is in resistance to expand borders.

If we do end up taking on Cyrus right after Cat we will fail unless we pay close attention to the economy. Even if we succeed we will be in serious deficit for a while and would definitely have to take a hit in our tech development in order to avoid going bankrupt. I guess our decision comes down to whether doing this now and suffering these consequences is a good investment based on all the pros and cons that have been laid out.

 

[Grogs]

Again I agree about the farms--but look at our cities. Rarely do you see so much food and more FP than we can work at size 8. We are limited here by economy--we are not even working most of the farms. I think when war over we will be lucky to break even at 50% research. That tells me we need more commerce. Building wealth is a poor tradeoff--2 hammers/1 gold is a pretty weak tradeoff. Every city doesn't have to get all the buildings--they're pretty expensive anyway. --ungy

OK. I'm just looking at specific cities. Take Pi-Ramesses for example. It's got 2 plains/hills that it would be awfully nice if the city could work. It has a cow and a grass/farm, 4f and 3f respectively. Everything else is 2f or less, so the best we can do is +1fpt in the city and work both hills - very, very slow growth. It might be size 8 in 1000 years. Ideally, I'd like to keep it at +3fpt - that's 2 more farms. After that, I would cottage the rest of the grasslands. In other cities like Moscow or Thebes, I agree with you completely - they've got several bonus resources, so they have no problem generating a decent number of hammers and growing rapidly at the same time. We can cottage the heck out of them.

Even with FP they are still very far if we put it in Moscow--not sure where else we put it--that's subject for another discussion.

Moscow is the obvious spot, but I'm not sure it's the correct one. If we're going domination, we're going to be picking up off-continent cities far, far away from Thebes. Since we can't count on Versailles at this level, the best way to deal with the distance maintenance problems may be to jump the palace over to the new continent. If we do that, we'll want the FP as centrally located in our core lands as possible - St. Petersburg or Pi-Ramsesses probably fit that description best.

I would also consider Hanging Gardens in Thebes:

Sounds like a good plan.

Another reason in the "pro" column is that we need to block Gandhi from picking up Cyrus' cities. Now Gandhi is usually peace loving but most civs are opportunists and Gandhi is a heck of a lot stronger then Cyrus. Since we can't go to war against Gandhi directly, containing him to his present borders may be the next best thing.

You know, I had never even considered that as a possibility until you mentioned it. I'm struggling hard to think of a game I remember when Ghandi declared on someone and nothing comes to mind. Especially considering that they have +8 relations with each other, I'd consider it pretty unlikely. Nothing in Civ is certain, but I think that's a fairly reasonable gamble.

Overall, I agree with most of what you've got to say about the diplomatic win. I've won enough diplo. victories to know that they can be a bit flakey. I've had many times when the Civs I thought would vote for me didn't and those I thought would vote for my opponent voted for me. Right now, my long term strategy would be to assume that we *need* to pull off a domination victory and move in that direction. If at some point that looks impossible, or if the diplo route looks faster, we can double back to it.

Off the top of my head, we can rack up the following bonuses with Ghandi:

"Years of peace..." +1
"Our open borders..." +2
"Our trade relations have been..." +2
"Brothers of the faith" +6 or better
"You have wisely chosen your civics" +5
"You have supplied us with resources" +2
"You have shared your technology" +2
"Defensive Pact" +4 (though we can't get one until HC has been eliminated)

That's +24 right there and I don't think it's all that unrealistic. I can't imagine a single -1 making a difference.

 

[Lmtoops]

I've read the various posts and have these notes, and comments:

- Turn off 'avoid growth' button. We can use the angry minions to rush build stuff, plus we will have more happiness resources, soon. I will go for slow growth. Try to maximize our gold production.

- Workers...I have not looked at specific tiles to work. I know we need cottages, and of course any new resources.

- After the current military builds, I will build infrastructure that will save gold. The exception is Memphis, which will produce galleys. (Side Note: Good thing Memphis was built on the coast )

- I will build court houses in far away cities and markets in high income cities.

- I will send the injured to Moscow for healing. I see how quickly I can get a medic promotion in Moscow. All healthy forces will march on Rostov and capture the city.

- I not keen about give peace to Cathy. I doubt she would offer me anything of value, such as Theology. If she did offer Theo (or something of value), I would really thick about it.

- Assuming no peace, March healed forces and capture remaining cities. I will destroy all cities expect Novgorad.

- Trade with Gandi for happiness resources.

- Research along the Optics/Astronomy path.

- Promote 16/17 war chariot...I will be very careful not to lose this one.

- ?Hanging Gardens in Thebes? I don't know about this. The pop. growth is great. In my 15 turns, Thebes will probably be busy building other things.

- ?Trade cheap tech for Cyrus gold? We could probably demand the gold and get it. Cyrus is behind us in every possible way. The demand will not effect our relations with Ghandi.

- ?Build new city with the current settler? We cannot support the new city, right now. It would take at least 30 turns for the city to be self supporting. I will hold off on the build unless another civ forces me to build.

 

[ungy]

Another reason in the "pro" column is that we need to block Gandhi from picking up Cyrus' cities. Now Gandhi is usually peace loving but most civs are opportunists and Gandhi is a heck of a lot stronger then Cyrus. Since we can't go to war against Gandhi directly, containing him to his present borders may be the next best thing.

I would actually put this reason in the con column. Is possible but unlikely Gandhi (one of the least aggressive leaders if not the least) attacks a neighbor with good relations. If not, Cyrus's culture holds Gandhi back much better than we could ever do.

 

[ungy]

OK. I'm just looking at specific cities. Take Pi-Ramesses for example. It's got 2 plains/hills that it would be awfully nice if the city could work. It has a cow and a grass/farm, 4f and 3f respectively. Everything else is 2f or less, so the best we can do is +1fpt in the city and work both hills - very, very slow growth. It might be size 8 in 1000 years. Ideally, I'd like to keep it at +3fpt - that's 2 more farms. After that, I would cottage the rest of the grasslands. In other cities like Moscow or Thebes, I agree with you completely - they've got several bonus resources, so they have no problem generating a decent number of hammers and growing rapidly at the same time. We can cottage the heck out of them.

Maybe its just different style but I would have deloped pi ramesess differently.
I would have built cottages on the 3 grasslands and worked them and the cow. Probably work a mine until granary built then shift to cottages. Slower to get buildings but developing those cottages into towns is huge. I would rather work 3 cottages than two farms and one mine. Would be different if really needed the hammers for war but here we got lots. BTW one of the main reasons I wanted to play this game is to have this type of discussion and learn from others.

 

[ungy]

- After the current military builds, I will build infrastructure that will save gold. The exception is Memphis, which will produce galleys. (Side Note: Good thing Memphis was built on the coast )

why do we need more galleys? if not attacking Cyrus(my strong recommendation) we have plenty at 2. Even if we attack Cyrus, I would think 3 probably the right number.

 

[Grogs]

- After the current military builds, I will build infrastructure that will save gold. The exception is Memphis, which will produce galleys. (Side Note: Good thing Memphis was built on the coast )

If we're not going to war with Cyrus for a while, we should probably station those galleys near our ocean resources. Eventually HC will discover Optics and find us, so it would be nice to have a bit of a navy in place to prevent caravels from tearing up all of our fishing nets.

- I not keen about give peace to Cathy. I doubt she would offer me anything of value, such as Theology. If she did offer Theo (or something of value), I would really thick about it.

Even if she want give it to us, we can try to make a trade at the peace table. We can give her Literature+Currency in exchange for peace+Theology+120g. It comes out even or slightly in her favor. Ghandi already has those techs and Cy has nothing to trade her, so they'd do her no good in 10 turns.

- Trade with Gandi for happiness resources.

Yep. That dye will be huge down the road.

- Research along the Optics/Astronomy path.

Sure, but I'd finish CS first. Bureaucracy will speed up our research and we can hopefully trade it to Ghandi for Metal Casting or Machinery. Once Ghandi (or somebody) has built the Colossus, I think he'll loosen up with that tech. Once we start getting the 'Brothers of the faith' diplomatic bonus, that should help in that area as well.

- ?Hanging Gardens in Thebes? I don't know about this. The pop. growth is great. In my 15 turns, Thebes will probably be busy building other things.

The +1 health per city is pretty nice too. Our FP cities are already struggling pretty hard with health issues, so every little bit helps.

- ?Trade cheap tech for Cyrus gold? We could probably demand the gold and get it. Cyrus is behind us in every possible way. The demand will not effect our relations with Ghandi.

We can give him Alphabet for it. Unless things have changed in 1.61, Alphabet is a one-way tech. If one of the two civs has alphabet, either one can initiate a trade. Since all of the known civs already have Alphabet, it really shouldn't let Cyrus do anything he can't already do.

- ?Build new city with the current settler? We cannot support the new city, right now. It would take at least 30 turns for the city to be self supporting. I will hold off on the build unless another civ forces me to build.

I'm not particularly keen on building another right now either. We may want to build a couple more settlers if we get the chance though. I see 3 more decent spots to settle: On the small peninsula SW of Moscow, by the sugar S of Thebes, and on the mountain peninsula S of Elephantine. We could keep a settler/garrison near each of those spots and move in if we see Cyrus or Ghandi bringing a settler in.

Maybe its just different style but I would have deloped pi ramesess differently.
I would have built cottages on the 3 grasslands and worked them and the cow. Probably work a mine until granary built then shift to cottages. Slower to get buildings but developing those cottages into towns is huge. I would rather work 3 cottages than two farms and one mine. Would be different if really needed the hammers for war but here we got lots.

Maybe I've just still got a little too much peaceful builder left in me. Cities that can't build anything drive me crazy. You can see my GOTM spoiler for this month (if you've already played / aren't going to play) for an example of what I'm talking about. We've probably got ennough production cities already (just look at how quickly we built up that invasion force.)

BTW one of the main reasons I wanted to play this game is to have this type of discussion and learn from others.

Me too.

why do we need more galleys? if not attacking Cyrus(my strong recommendation) we have plenty at 2. Even if we attack Cyrus, I would think 3 probably the right number.

See what I wrote above, but I agree we don't need to go crazy. Maybe 2-3 on each coast.

If we *were* going after Cyrus right now, I'd want 10 - enough to carry our entire invasion force in 1 turn. We wouldn't want to declare and give Cyrus 5 turns to start rushing military while we were ferrying troops. They'd be staged as follows: 4 galleys by the horses at Arbela and 6 on the coast between Tarsus and Pasargadae. On the first turn of the war, the 4 galleys by Arbela would unload on the horses, cutting that resource, then take Arbela. One galley from the southern forces would land on the copper and pillage it. The other 5 galleys would sail to Persepolis and capture it and Cyrus's iron. Then the southern and northern forces would head towards Tarsus and Pasaradae, capture them, head to Susa, then clean up the 2 little tundra cities for good measure.

 

[mushroomshirt]

I would actually put this reason in the con column. Is possible but unlikely Gandhi (one of the least aggressive leaders if not the least) attacks a neighbor with good relations. If not, Cyrus's culture holds Gandhi back much better than we could ever do.

Good point, I think if folks strongly believe that Gandhi will not attack Cyrus (I'm not totally convinced, but I'll admit inexperience in this area) then I'm not sure there are good reasons to attack Cyrus now while our economy is so weak. In this case I would think we would attack after optics, but before astronomy.

- Assuming no peace, March healed forces and capture remaining cities. I will destroy all cities expect Novgorad.

What about Rostov? I know that the city is in a bad location, but I would keep it because of its high population and Buddhism.

EDIT:

- Turn off 'avoid growth' button. We can use the angry minions to rush build stuff, plus we will have more happiness resources, soon. I will go for slow growth. Try to maximize our gold production.

I wonder if we should consider switching briefly to caste system while we conquer Russian cities? could help us get them up and running faster with larger cultural borders. I'm thinking particularly for Moscow where getting that sugar as soon as possible will help us keep from having unhappy citizens in the first place.

 

[ungy]

If we're not going to war with Cyrus for a while, we should probably station those galleys near our ocean resources. Eventually HC will discover Optics and find us, so it would be nice to have a bit of a navy in place to prevent caravels from tearing up all of our fishing nets.

Unless I'm mistaken, caravels cannot plunder nets. So no need for galleys

 

[ungy]

I think razing Rostov a mistake--will likely be settled

 

[Lmtoops]

- I will send the injured to Moscow for healing. I see how quickly I can get a medic promotion in Moscow. All healthy forces will march on Rostov and capture the city.

I never said I was razing Rostov, someone just misread my post (or I did a poor job of explaining my intent ). I am keeping Rostov.

I'm about to play my turns.

 

[mushroomshirt]

I never said I was razing Rostov, someone just misread my post (or I did a poor job of explaining my intent ). I am keeping Rostov.

Guilty! Good luck...

 

[Danthor]

Unless I'm mistaken, caravels cannot plunder nets. So no need for galleys

You are right.

 

[Lmtoops]

Well I think I did alright, no real surprises and a stuck to script...for the most part.

Turn 0 350AD (I forgot the turn number)
- Turned off Avoid Growth buttons and minor adjustments to worked tiles to get another 2 gpt.
- Increase science slider to 40%, which results in -12 gpt. I know we will be getting gold from conquests, and trades so I'm not too worried.

Turn 1 365AD
- Start Market in Thebes. We can build aquaduct and HG after that
- Warweariness hits all our big cities.
- Troops are in position to attack Rostov

Turn 2 380AD
- Bombard Rostov, will attack next turn

T3 395AD
- Cyrus asks us to gift Alphabet...I said no
- I did trade Monotheism for 120g with Cyrus
- Instead of building another galley in Memphis, I built a settler. It sounds like we will wait for Cyrus, so we don't need tons of galleys.
- New Copper mine is found with Heliopolis and the hill is already mined...
- I take Rostov and raze it.....not really We lose 1 catapult and 1 swordsman (he had 76% chance of winning)
- Trade Gems for Dye with Ghandi
- Trade Cow for 2 gpt with Cyrus. In 10t, he may have more gold to trade.

T4 410AD
- Thepis is born in Delhi (Great Artist). Ghandi has a Great Sci. and Grt. Artist....he will probably have a Golden Age, soon.
- Taking Rostov did reconnect our trade routes. We are at -2 gpt.

T5 425AD
- Begin march on Novgorad

T6 440AD
- Moscow is out of anarchy. It already as a Courthouse, which is very nice. I am building a barracks.
- Convert to Buddahism.
- Novgorad has 4 archers, spear, axe, and settler.

T7 455AD
- Ghandi has a golden age
- Bombard Novgorad

T8 470AD
- Rush Barracks in Moscow. I probably didn't need to do this....hmmm
- Capture Novgorad; lost 1 catapult. We are at -17 gpt and 12t to discover Civil Service. I switch the science slider to 30%; which gives us -3 gpt and 15t to discover Civil Service.
- Cathy will not trade Theo for peace.
- Switched to Organized Religion. Building Missionary in Rostov

T9 485AD
- Trade Rice for Silk with Ghandi
- Cathy offers Monarchy + 20g for peace. I WANT THEOLOGY

T10 500AD
- Ghandi builds Chichen Itza
- I disconnect Cathy's copper.

T11 515AD
- Most Advanced Civilization pop-up shows: (1) Ghandi, (2) Huayna Capac, (3) Short Straw, (4) Cathy, (7) Cyrus.

T12 530AD
- Ghandi offers Monarchy + 130g for Construction. This is a good deal and I want to maintain good relations with Ghandi. So I take the deal.

T13 545AD
- Cathy is down to 1 half strength archer, and she finally agrees to give we Theology. So we will have 10 turns of peace.
- With Theo, we enter the Medival Era
- I build the new city Giza on the ... you'll have to look at the save for the location. The advisor (blue circle) had 2 recommended locations, and I settled on the grass (or plains?)...I did not settle on the hill.

T14 560AD
- Cathy asks us to gift her Currency
- Market in Thebes is completed...start Aqueduct
- Trade sugar for pigs with Ghandi

T15 575AD
- Courthouse is completed in Heliopolis. I selected to build Market next, but the next player can change that...for he is the next


Worker actions: Basicly, connect resources, build cottages, and cleared jungle.

 

[Lmtoops]

Grogs
Mushroomshirt
Lmtoops - Just Played
Danthor - Up
RobertTheBruce - On Deck
VirusMonster
llib_rm
Ungy

Save is available at
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/Short_Straw_SG001_AD0575_01.Civ4SavedGame

I think the download went through...but it acted a bit strange. I'll check in the morning to see if it downloaded.

edit: I uploaded the save, and all is well.

 

[Grogs]

Good work Lmtoops.

T3 395AD
- New Copper mine is found with Heliopolis and the hill is already mined...

Nice!

T11 515AD
- Most Advanced Civilization pop-up shows: (1) Ghandi, (2) Huayna Capac, (3) Short Straw, (4) Cathy, (7) Cyrus.

Great! This is useful information. We know exactly how many civs there are, so we'll know when we qualify for the first spoiler. We also know we're more advanced than the other two unknown civs, possibly a lot more advanced, so we're doing pretty well.

We've got plenty of forces to finish off Catherine in 8 turns and no barbs to worry about, so I think it's time to switch into peaceful builder mode and work on the economy - CH's, libraries, markets, and of course, lots and lots of cottages. We definitely want to Bureaucracy once we discover CS. That will pull in an extra 15g and 8 beakers from Thebes, though those beakers will increase a good deal as we're able to raise the science slider.

Tech-wise, I was a little disappointed we couldn't trade Theology to Ghandi, but I guess Catherine beat us to that. I'm hoping he'll loosen his grip on tech trading before too long - metal casting in particular. Once we've got CS, I think our best option is to head for Astronomy - metal casting, machinery, compass, optics, astronomy. Ghandi will probably tech up the paper->education->liberalism route once he has Civil Service, so we can hopefully trade for those at some point.

I see that Catherine has meditation (and is willing to trade!) so let's make sure we trade her for it (and all her gold) before we wipe her out. I can't think of any reason not to. I'm also thinking we should give Cyrus Alphabet. It does him absolutely no good since everyone he knows has Alphabet, and I'm hoping he'll research drama so we can trade him for it even if Ghandi doesn't loosen his grip on it.