Well, no matter what you think of the last turns, VM did put together a decent invasion force, or at least the start of one. By my figuring, we can build 4 galleons in 8 turns: 2 in Memphis, 1 in Heliopolis, and 1 in St. Pete. That could either be ungy's decoy force, or our initial invasion force, depending on how strong HC turns out to be.
SGOTM 01 - Short Straw
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
mushroomshirt
King
Danthor said:
No way! Don't forget we are talking about lvl 3 units (that is, with 2 promotions), so a unit with Raider I & II gets +45% attacking a city instead of 20% with Combat I&II, or 35% with combat I and the promo vs. Archery.
Knight don't receive defensive bonuses, so they are crappy city defenders and on the field we can take them easily with halberdiers.
It is much better to have a specialized army than a homogeneous all-around one.
Believe it or not, there are actually some circumstances where +20% is better than +45%! I just found this out myself in the GOTM07 pregame discussions. I apologize if you are aware of this already. Like I said, I just found out.
This is because combat I and II get added to the attacker's strength, but city raider I and II and pretty much all other bonuses get subtracted from the defender's strength instead of added to the attacker's strength. Weird, I know.
In this example if a grenadier (str 12) is attacking a longbowman (str 6) defending a city, a city raider I & II grenadier would subtract 45% from the defensive strength of the longbowman (-2.7 strength points). A strength I&II grenadier on the other hand would get +20% to his own strength or +2.4 strength points. Still a slight win for the city raider grenadier, but not as much as you would think on it's face!
Anyway this link helps explain it all. I must confess I can't process it all! Grogs & Danthor you are a Physicist and an Engineer, if I recall? Maybe you will have more luck.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=137615&page=1
Ah, Arathorn's infamous Combat Explained thread. I've read through it before, but not since 1.61 came out, so I'm most likely behind the times.
IMO, we don't really need grenadiers against LB's, we need them against muskets, and even rifles. Grenadiers wll tear through LB's regardless of the promotion. Maces and cats are fine against LB's, but there's a good chance our 3rd, if not 2nd, victim will have muskets or better by the time we get to them. That's where the city raider promotion comes in handy. It can be used against archery, melee, or gunpowder units and get the same effect. I'd rather have the promotion that's always there, rather than maybe getting 5% better odd if I match up and 50% worse if I don't. My general thing when I've got chemistry is to build about 75/25 maces/grenadiers. The maces get CR1 & 2, then get upgraded. The built grenadiers get Combat 1 plus Combat 2, Medic 1, Cover, Pinch, or whatever I may need.
Of course, we're really putting the cart in front of the horse here. Let's get to chemistry and see if we have enough cash to upgrade maces or not. If not, it's a moot point. With luck, Ghandi will pursue another path and we'll get to trade guilds, gunpowder, and chem for some useful techs along the way.
IMO, we don't really need grenadiers against LB's, we need them against muskets, and even rifles. Grenadiers wll tear through LB's regardless of the promotion. Maces and cats are fine against LB's, but there's a good chance our 3rd, if not 2nd, victim will have muskets or better by the time we get to them. That's where the city raider promotion comes in handy. It can be used against archery, melee, or gunpowder units and get the same effect. I'd rather have the promotion that's always there, rather than maybe getting 5% better odd if I match up and 50% worse if I don't. My general thing when I've got chemistry is to build about 75/25 maces/grenadiers. The maces get CR1 & 2, then get upgraded. The built grenadiers get Combat 1 plus Combat 2, Medic 1, Cover, Pinch, or whatever I may need.
Of course, we're really putting the cart in front of the horse here. Let's get to chemistry and see if we have enough cash to upgrade maces or not. If not, it's a moot point. With luck, Ghandi will pursue another path and we'll get to trade guilds, gunpowder, and chem for some useful techs along the way.
Danthor
Warlord
O M G!!!
I did NOT know that!!!
Let me process and calculate it and I'll get back to you...
I did NOT know that!!!
Let me process and calculate it and I'll get back to you...
Lmtoops
Warlord
The main flaw I see in this strategy is that we need to have 64% of the land area to get a domination victory. Right now, Ghandi has 19%. So that leaves 80% of the land....no problem as long as (1) Ghandi does not expand,
(2) We have enough cities and culture to cover the 64%.
There is a good chance that Ghandi has already met the other civs. If there is open land (probably) he will build cities, which we cannot take directly. A conservative guess is that Ghandi will be that ultimately Ghandi will have close to 30% of the land area. Of the 70% left, we have to cover almost all of it (92% coverage).
After typing, and thinking about the flaw, I realize it' s not really a flaw. If we the other civs out quickly, and expand the culural borders...we can block any Indian expansion. Ghandi will still grow, but maybe we can keep him to 25% instead of 30%.
One thing for sure, let's try to keep good relations with Ghandi. There is not benefit in upsetting Ghandi, and he could be our savior in the end. I would still like to get communism...just in case. Maybe we can trade along the communism path and then, if needed, we can research communism.
(2) We have enough cities and culture to cover the 64%.
There is a good chance that Ghandi has already met the other civs. If there is open land (probably) he will build cities, which we cannot take directly. A conservative guess is that Ghandi will be that ultimately Ghandi will have close to 30% of the land area. Of the 70% left, we have to cover almost all of it (92% coverage).
After typing, and thinking about the flaw, I realize it' s not really a flaw. If we the other civs out quickly, and expand the culural borders...we can block any Indian expansion. Ghandi will still grow, but maybe we can keep him to 25% instead of 30%.
One thing for sure, let's try to keep good relations with Ghandi. There is not benefit in upsetting Ghandi, and he could be our savior in the end. I would still like to get communism...just in case. Maybe we can trade along the communism path and then, if needed, we can research communism.
Lmtoops
Warlord
Here is a rough strategy for getting one of Ghandi's cities.
1. We convince Cyrus (or whoever) to go the war with Ghandi.
2. We gift Cyrus a sufficient stack to take out the target city. Hopefully, the AI will use the stack correctly. If the city survives, gift more units.
3. Then we can declare war and take the city from Cyrus.
Of course this can only be used as a last resort. If could backfire if Ghandi takes out Cyrus and gains more cities.
1. We convince Cyrus (or whoever) to go the war with Ghandi.
2. We gift Cyrus a sufficient stack to take out the target city. Hopefully, the AI will use the stack correctly. If the city survives, gift more units.
3. Then we can declare war and take the city from Cyrus.
Of course this can only be used as a last resort. If could backfire if Ghandi takes out Cyrus and gains more cities.
Lmtoops
Warlord
I noticed that Ghandi has 3 gpt to trade. We can renegotiate the silver trade and gain the 3 gpt.
Cyrus has 410g to trade...let's get that gold. We can trade a tech, or some other combination trade.
I checked out the path to Communism and it's pretty long. Phil > Paper > Printing Press > Education > Liberalism > Astromomy > Sci. Methods > Commie.
Cyrus has 410g to trade...let's get that gold. We can trade a tech, or some other combination trade.
I checked out the path to Communism and it's pretty long. Phil > Paper > Printing Press > Education > Liberalism > Astromomy > Sci. Methods > Commie.
llib_rm
Prince
llib_rm said:
I could not get to it last night. I will play & post tonight.
RobertTheBruce
King
Lmtoops said:
Previously, I've been advocating an attack on Cyrus but I think mushroom shift has a point. As far as land goes. there may be an unsettled big island/small continent which we may need to find and settler spam as soon as possible. Normally it is possible to get a domination victory with the land from 5 civs. We have all Cathy's land and from early in the game we know H.C. is probably around 15-18%. If two other civs have 15% that will probably push us over the limit without attacking Cyrus who only has about 8% land. If we do run into land problems we can attack Cyrus's small ice ball cities (thinly defended and out of anarchy quickly) and use caste system to quickly pop boarders. This keeps trade for Commerce, gold and resources with the Buddhist block open until the last moment. I seriously doubt there is any bribe we could make to get Cyrus to attack Ghandi. Their relations are too good and the power difference too large.
Ghandi won't be able to trade with anyone so trade with the two other civs if we can for easy techs then astro to Ghandi. I'm afraid there are two religious leaders with Hinduism and either Judaism or Christianity who are fighting and neither with trade with us.
RobertTheBruce
King
mushroomshirt said:
I would recommend guilds as well although I think maces will be our primary troops. We have a bunch of flanking II chariots which will make good suicide knights. The will save a lot of pain for those cities with a one CG2 longbow and one unpromoted longbow. The CG2 longbow is a good enough defender that a barrage cat will often leave it undamaged and has high enough power that it will be the defender of choice before a spear. the knight ignores first strikes and can hurt the one defender which will stop maces. The flanking gives a 30% retreat chance and I find there is often a long period when the AI has longbows but not pikes. Also, the knights crush crossbows so they make a good stack defender/pillager in open terrain.
Danthor said:
A unit attacking with CR 2 does not actually do much better against longbow with lots of bonus (otherwise doesn't matter much if not promoted, etc.), -45% applies to the defender's 6 base while the +20 applies to 12. I agree with you it is better, but the way the game calculates odds it isn't as much of a difference as it seems.
sorry i see now this is a dupe to a previous post--can't seem to erase it all
ungy said:
Here are the maintenance costs for the 4 russian cities:
St. Pete: 4 distance, 4 # cities = 4 w/ CH
Moscow: 5 distance, 5 # cities = 5 w/ CH
Novgorod: 4 distance, 4 # cities = 4 w/ CH
Rostov: 5 distance, 4 # cities = 4 w/ CH
I don't think anything else is closer to Moscow than Thebes, so I think just those 4 would be affected. After FP in Moscow I think the costs would be something like this:
St. Pete: 1 distance, 4 # cities = 3 w/ CH
Moscow: 0 distance, 5 # cities = 3 w/ CH
Novgorod: 1 distance, 4 # cities = 3 w/ CH
Rostov: 1 distance, 4 # cities = 2 w/ CH
for a grand savings of 6gpt.
Lmtoops
Warlord
I am away on business on Tuesday and Wednesday.
I doubt anyone will miss me
...................... 
I doubt anyone will miss me
......................
llib_rm
Prince
1) 1154: Turned off all pre-determined moves for the caravels and settler. Renamed caravels in honor of Magellan. Sent the Santiago, San Antonio, & Trinidada South West, the Victoria North West, and the Conception due East to circumnavigate the globe. GS born in Elephantine and moved to Heliopolis for Academy. Switch all scientists to merchants. GM due in 24 turns. Change three scientists in Memphis to merchants. Cycle through cities: Start Forges in Novgorod & Rostov, change Thebe from research to settler. If there is open land we should have a settler or three handy to lay claim. Lower science from 100% to 70%. Astronomy in 8 turns. Gold = 576 @ -32/turn
2) 1160: Academy in Heliopolis, Forge complete switch to Bud Monestary. Astronomy in 6 turns.
3) 1166: Memphis Forge complete switch to harbor. Change one merchant to engineer.
4) 1172: Land Ho! Conception finds a rock island. We are introduced to Saladin. Get open borders and old trade techs that both Cyrus & Ghandi have.
5) 1178: Land Ho! Victoria finds land NW of Ghandi.
6) 1184: Zzzzz
7) 1190: Memphis completes Harbor starts Galley. Heliopolis completes monestary start Galley.
8) 1196: Land Ho! Santiago finds land south of Novgorod. There is a barb galley just north in the fog. Astronomy complete switch to Guilds. Memphis builds galley->upgrade to galleon starts on Maceman.
9) 1202: We found HC! Start massive troop movement North to Heliopolis-Elephantine. Thebes builds settler starts on observatory. Settler goes to Memphis.
10) 1208: Send galleon near HC to Heliopolis. Settler/Axe in Memphis loads on galleon and sent to land north of Ghandi.
11) 1214: Ghandi Circumnavigates the globe!
12) 1220: Congratulations you now have 10 million people. Land Ho! We came two turns away from beating Ghandi around the world!
13) 1226: Moscow builds forge starts on crossbow. Pi Ramses the same. Novgorod finishes Forge starts on Galley. (Should upgrade to galleon and save 4 turns, then send settler south to get the deer and furs!)
We meet the Roosevelt. Trade for resources, Drama, and open borders. Trade Optics to Cyrus for 350 gold. Everyone else has it and we can use the cash.
14) 1232: Landed settler & Axe on Island to scout for city. Lots of forests & two fish.
15) 1238: Settler & Axe move towards settler location to get most land mass and two fish. Guilds in 2 turns Gold = 309 @ -44/turn
Next: Ungy/Grogs
On Deck: Grogs/Ungy
2) 1160: Academy in Heliopolis, Forge complete switch to Bud Monestary. Astronomy in 6 turns.
3) 1166: Memphis Forge complete switch to harbor. Change one merchant to engineer.
4) 1172: Land Ho! Conception finds a rock island. We are introduced to Saladin. Get open borders and old trade techs that both Cyrus & Ghandi have.
5) 1178: Land Ho! Victoria finds land NW of Ghandi.
6) 1184: Zzzzz
7) 1190: Memphis completes Harbor starts Galley. Heliopolis completes monestary start Galley.
8) 1196: Land Ho! Santiago finds land south of Novgorod. There is a barb galley just north in the fog. Astronomy complete switch to Guilds. Memphis builds galley->upgrade to galleon starts on Maceman.
9) 1202: We found HC! Start massive troop movement North to Heliopolis-Elephantine. Thebes builds settler starts on observatory. Settler goes to Memphis.
10) 1208: Send galleon near HC to Heliopolis. Settler/Axe in Memphis loads on galleon and sent to land north of Ghandi.
11) 1214: Ghandi Circumnavigates the globe!
12) 1220: Congratulations you now have 10 million people. Land Ho! We came two turns away from beating Ghandi around the world!
13) 1226: Moscow builds forge starts on crossbow. Pi Ramses the same. Novgorod finishes Forge starts on Galley. (Should upgrade to galleon and save 4 turns, then send settler south to get the deer and furs!)
We meet the Roosevelt. Trade for resources, Drama, and open borders. Trade Optics to Cyrus for 350 gold. Everyone else has it and we can use the cash.
14) 1232: Landed settler & Axe on Island to scout for city. Lots of forests & two fish.
15) 1238: Settler & Axe move towards settler location to get most land mass and two fish. Guilds in 2 turns Gold = 309 @ -44/turn
Next: Ungy/Grogs
On Deck: Grogs/Ungy
RobertTheBruce
King
Great set of turn llib_rm!
A totally different world than last time. Too bad about the circumnavigation since we are going to need to shuttle a lot of galleons.
We still have a monopoly on Astronomy so it looks like we will be able to grab the unsettled islands. Normally, I would ignore this land but I think we will have to bite the economic bullet and settle them all. We just can't afford to let Ghandi get this land. This cities will really drag down our research due to the distances.
I assume everyone agrees war with H.C. is the next step. He has stagnated and now he and Saladin are the best targets. I didn't check if the FP was built in Moscow but if not then move the build site to Incan land.
So, I would propose war with H.C., war with Saladin, and finish with Teddy. I don't think Teddy will get that many techs from trade but he is now the most powerful civ. We will probably need grenadiers before attacking Teddy since the distance is too far to quickly shuttle maces into a meatgrinder of a war.
For our final techs I would propose engineering, music (culture slider for war weariness), gunpowder, chemistry, and possibly banking. This is going to be a long series of wars with a very stretched empire we may need to build some banks to upgrade CR2 maces. Any thoughts on other techs, attack orders? Do we want to push to communism for an alliance with Ghandi or just try to keep him stuck with Cyrus on their continent?
A totally different world than last time. Too bad about the circumnavigation since we are going to need to shuttle a lot of galleons.
We still have a monopoly on Astronomy so it looks like we will be able to grab the unsettled islands. Normally, I would ignore this land but I think we will have to bite the economic bullet and settle them all. We just can't afford to let Ghandi get this land. This cities will really drag down our research due to the distances.
I assume everyone agrees war with H.C. is the next step. He has stagnated and now he and Saladin are the best targets. I didn't check if the FP was built in Moscow but if not then move the build site to Incan land.
So, I would propose war with H.C., war with Saladin, and finish with Teddy. I don't think Teddy will get that many techs from trade but he is now the most powerful civ. We will probably need grenadiers before attacking Teddy since the distance is too far to quickly shuttle maces into a meatgrinder of a war.
For our final techs I would propose engineering, music (culture slider for war weariness), gunpowder, chemistry, and possibly banking. This is going to be a long series of wars with a very stretched empire we may need to build some banks to upgrade CR2 maces. Any thoughts on other techs, attack orders? Do we want to push to communism for an alliance with Ghandi or just try to keep him stuck with Cyrus on their continent?
llib_rm
Prince
RobertTheBruce said:
I agree. The land to the south has furs and deer. There are two settlers heading to Novgorod. Novgorod is building a galley that should be upraded to a galleon. We can settle that island and get those two resources quickly.
RobertTheBruce said:
I agree. We are massing troops and transports at Heliopolis. I did not explore HC's land, so he may not know that we know his location. Whether this matters to the AI, who can tell. The FP has not been started.
Danthor
Warlord
llib_rm said:
Good job llib_rm.
Let's go ahead and let ungy play next. He should be back tomorrow and we've probably got a bit to discuss before we play anyway.
Let's go ahead and trade gems to Roosevelt for his corn. We should be able to pick up the deer and fur on that island to our SE.
I saw something interesting on the trade screens. Roosevelt will give us guilds and 70g for Calendar. It saves us 1-2 turns of research, and it also makes Astronomy an option for future trades with him.
Ghandi must already be researching Astronomy, because the best offer I could get for Astronomy was philosophy+guilds if we paid him 120g.
Our initial invasion force should be ready soon, so we should send a couple caravles in to scout out HC's lands. We need to find a good spot to offload troops and we don't want to use galleons loaded with troops for that purpose.
Unless anybody know different, we've now qualified for the first spoiler, so we can read it and see how the other teams have fared. Danthor, you can go ahead and write up the spoiler when you get a chance.
llib_rm said:
Let's go ahead and let ungy play next. He should be back tomorrow and we've probably got a bit to discuss before we play anyway.
Let's go ahead and trade gems to Roosevelt for his corn. We should be able to pick up the deer and fur on that island to our SE.
I saw something interesting on the trade screens. Roosevelt will give us guilds and 70g for Calendar. It saves us 1-2 turns of research, and it also makes Astronomy an option for future trades with him.
Ghandi must already be researching Astronomy, because the best offer I could get for Astronomy was philosophy+guilds if we paid him 120g.
Our initial invasion force should be ready soon, so we should send a couple caravles in to scout out HC's lands. We need to find a good spot to offload troops and we don't want to use galleons loaded with troops for that purpose.
Unless anybody know different, we've now qualified for the first spoiler, so we can read it and see how the other teams have fared. Danthor, you can go ahead and write up the spoiler when you get a chance.
Danthor
Warlord
Grogs said:
Oki dokie! I'll try to have it finished before the World Cup starts, otherwise I'll finish it Monday/Tuesday. Have you read the other team's spoilers yet? Team VQ SUCKS and Team One looks similar to us.
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