SGOTM 01 - V Q

[GreyFox]

Let's take a couple days ..

What's there to discuss? We did not pay Rosy into war for nothing. Declare already! we could declare and do nothing (no WW), just so as to stop the DP between Sally and Rosy.

--

Great turns, eektor.

Need to build the monastries we have shrines for to spread the religions to our original city. So its probably a good thing you did not go SciMeth immediately.

--

 

[ChrTh]

What's there to discuss? We did not pay Rosy into war for nothing. Declare already! we could declare and do nothing (no WW), just so as to stop the DP between Sally and Rosy.

And what would we do after we declare on Sally? I'd say there's plenty to discuss. The longer we phony war, the longer the real war takes (as Sally gets Grenadiers and Cavalry), and the longer before we can DP with Gandhi--essentially, a phony war is foresaking the PA with Gandhi strategy, or at least delaying it far into the future.

Unless you just want namliaM to declare war and immediately upload the save and discuss at that point?

 

[eektor]

Good point GreyFox, I was thinking we could use some time to get our finances in order a bit. Only problem is do you think Saladin would send people over? When does War Weariness start? When we lose a unit to war or when we have our first battle?

The way I see it if we get the PA with Gandhi, we might just need Saladin's land to get to domination, if not a couple of cities from Cyrus. If we don't get it, we could always take Saladin and Roosevelt for the domination win. So either way let's take Saladin out.

Oh as for infrastructure, we need to get those courthouses and theatres in our new cities asap. The double holy city needs to build markets, grocer, and bank to increase our money and we need to spread the religion a bit.

 

[GreyFox]

Monastry first, monastry first. Before anything.

--

What to do after we declare war? WHy, attack already! You can build units in the old world and build infrastructure in the new world ... ...

*&%#$$&* *BOOM*

Ok, ignore the above. Its my evil twin snatching the keyboard from me I have successfully repress him and regain control ...

We do need to analyse the save a bit.

But monastry first is a definite.

-

 

[Maquis]

Yes, it looks like we should talk about where to go from here, I see there are some differing opinions...

Here's the options I see:

1) Sign a PA with Gahndi so that his land will be calculated in Domination. The PA will take somewhere around 40-60 turns. Once the PA is in effect, we will still need to go to war with someone to grab enough land to win true Domination, or we build the UN to backdoor it.

2) Go it alone... and the only real option is backdoor domination. Don't worry about getting the PA with Gandhi. We wouldneed to get 60% population ourselves, we would have to knock out at least two more rivals. We also would need to get to Mass Media to be able to build the UN.


1) is a bit of a safer route, because we would have no problem in domination (either route). The only downside is the amount of turns we would have to wait to sign a PA, then if we also have to still go to war after that...

If it truely takes 60 turns of being in the DP to get the PA, could we feesably take over the other rivals in less time?? (We wiped out HC in about 35 turns, from the time I set foot on Incan soil...)

ETA: 90 turns plus? (Depends on how long it takes to get the PA)


2) Is much more aggressive, but maybe we can pull it off faster? If we knocked off Saladin and Roosey... that may give us enough population to win backdoor alone.

ETA: 80 turns? (That's giving 40 turns-per-war)


I have looked at the save, so I am completely pulling numbers out my ass. We'd have to look at each rival, get an estimate of their population.

 

[ChrTh]

I think if we take out FDR and Sally, we'll get a normal domination victory, not a backdoor. Gandhi by himself doesn't have enough land/pop to prevent us from winning a domination victory.

 

[Maquis]

I think if we take out FDR and Sally, we'll get a normal domination victory, not a backdoor.

Ok, I wasn't sure of that (again, haven't looked at the save)

My main question is still, which route would be quicker? It would be nice to try to find out how long a PA takes on epic. If we can get it in ~40 turns, we may want to go that route. If it is longer, I still wonder if taknig out Sally & FDR might be a quicker route?

After all, we're still shooting for the earliest completion...

 

[ChrTh]

Some notes looking at the save:

Gandhi has Communism
Cyrus will give us RP for Divine Right; might as well save us the 5 turns

More later.

EDIT:

Ok, these are our choices from what I can see:

Option 1: Sign a DP with Gandhi. Wait 40-60 turns to get a PA, building up military and infra the whole time (especially military). Get a PA and catch up in techs. Attack Saladin (regardless of whom he has a DP or PA with) and conquer West to East until we win a Domination Victory

Option 2: Attack and conquer Saladin now. Then either revisit DP/PA with Gandhi or decide to keep conquering.

Option 1 might actually be quicker than Option 2. Advantage of Option 1 is that it gives us a breather to build up our empire. Disadvantage is that we're counting on a stable world for 40-60 turns to get our PA. Advantage of Option 2 is that we remain on the offensive. Disadvantage is that it could take a lot longer to win the game.

 

[bobrath]

Do we have the techs for proposing a PA yet? Add the time it takes to research Communism (since there's no way to ensure Baldy will trade it to us) to any estimate.

Obviously getting the PA with Gahndi is the more elegant approach, but the "wipe everyone else out" approach has a visceral yummy to it.

Restating the above points, but it comes down to which is faster:
1) Research/get Communism + getting a DP with Gahndi for x turns + time to reach UN/domination conditions with Baldy combined.
2) Take over and colonize FDR + take over and colonize Saladin + (if needed) take over and colonize Cyrus.

 

[ChrTh]

Do we have the techs for proposing a PA yet? Add the time it takes to research Communism (since there's no way to ensure Baldy will trade it to us) to any estimate.

Only one Civ needs to have Communism (or Fascism) to do a PA. That's how I know Gandhi has Communism: PA is now an option on the diplo screen.

EDIT: So no, we don't need to worry about researching Communism.

 

[eektor]

As of now we have a superior technology in military over Saladin. I think we should take that advantage and wipe him out before he catches up or becomes on par with us. After that we can decide where to go from there.

Do we need a DP in order to get the PA with Gandhi?

 

[ChrTh]

As of now we have a superior technology in military over Saladin. I think we should take that advantage and wipe him out before he catches up or becomes on par with us. After that we can decide where to go from there.

Do we need a DP in order to get the PA with Gandhi?

There are only two ways to get a PA:

1) DP for a long enough time
2) Mutual Struggle

I don't know the logistics for a Mutual Struggle to PA (turns, what if someone makes peace, what happens when the war is over, etc).

EDIT: So if we do want to attack Sally, we should try to get Gandhi in the war. Might save us time later.

 

[Cosmichail]

Good going taking out HC....

Why not get Ghandi into a war with Saladin? That would count towards a PA. However FDR might be bribed into a war with you since he has a good relationship with Saladin mostly because of same religion. This option has risks as power wise you are 3rd. Ghandi is first followed by FDR.

I agree with Greyfox why bribe FDR only to loose out on a tech. Strike now and tighten up defences on islands. If goal is to win ASAP then go after him whilst he is without DP. With Ghandi in a PA and controlling Saladin's land would be enough for a win.

As to WW that can be handled with culture and eventually Jails/national wonder (those guys in South Dakota can't remember the name)

I am only making a suggestion and whatever route you go might have it's challenges.

Chtr - You mentioned stay out of other threads... I will but admit have been lurking in other threads but commenting very little. I was only surprised to see that you guys hadn't considered the DP's in place. I couldn't resist to comment but perhaps should have stayed out of it. I didn't want to see you declare on Saladin and find yourselves in a three front war. That would have destroyed your game. I will not comment in other threads and offer my support to VQ alone. Just remember that you have to watch that diplomacy screen to see what the relationships are with the other civs.

ChrTh - I see that you have considered this option too however didn't notice the edit but seems the best way to go. Saladin is weak but watch FDR he might be a problem.

 

[Cosmichail]

Sorry for misspelling your handle ChrTh

 

[ChrTh]

Sorry for misspelling your handle ChrTh

'sok, wouldn't be the first time

 

[Cosmichail]

Bobrath makes a good point. YUK!!!!! You need communism to enter in a PA. DOH

 

[bobrath]

I didn't realize that you could request a PA from a Civ unless you had the tech too... Is it really an option (ie in white for both Blady and us)? I've seen DPs being possible one-way but not the other.

 

[ChrTh]

I didn't realize that you could request a PA from a Civ unless you had the tech too... Is it really an option (ie in white for both Blady and us)? I've seen DPs being possible one-way but not the other.

Everything that turns on in the diplo screen only requires one of the trading partners to have the requisite tech; otherwise you couldn't trade Alphabet. PA is white for us but red for Baldy because we haven't been in a DP/Mutual Struggle long enough.

 

[namliaM]

Who was thinking what? when we planted El-Amarna??
Wow... Geez... This spot is so much better than where Huamanga was ...

Personaly I would have like to have seen it 2 south.... I suggest renaming this town to "El-Nara"


Proof that currently there are no more DPs...


We can do the following trades...

I would take the 230 gold from Saladin and Declare immediatly (to prevent new DPs from starting.
Also the DR for RP with Cyrus is nice I think...

Gandhi has a hudge tech lead...
Visible
Constitution
Education
Sci Method (we dont want this just yet...)
RP

Not Visible
Phisics (He has Uranium)
Communism (or Fascism but I hope not, we can do PA but offcourse red... )
Democracy (SoL was build a few turns ago)

We have the following options for Monopolies (after the DR for RP trade)
Steel
Rifling
Steam Power

I would probably go for steel for the Canons...

My attack plan would be as follows. To my experience AI dont mind you beeing in "neutral" territory that much. They will jump out at you but not in force... That is untill you take the first city, at which point you get the majority of the counter attack.

So the point is get a Granedier 2-3 into Seattle to cover for the occational Fant or Camel to show up. Build up 5-6 cats and a cavelier of about 4 or 5. Thats the go point. We travell north of them mountains and take Medina.

On civics I would change from Theology to Org. Religion. This way we get 2 less experience points but also a 25% bonus on buildings, while still getting the 25% on units for Police state. It is just the combination we need I think....

I think TPTB would not have set the game up to have domination after taking out FDR and Saladin, I think we need a peace of Cyrus as well....

 

[bobrath]

Remember that the boost to buildings only applies where our religion has spread.

I know its obvious, but I'd hate to switch to that civic to hlep build infrastructure in cities that don't even have the religion!

I'd only trade Astronomy away if you're sure to declare war asap. Don't want Saladin to suddenly have galleons on the seas where he previously only had caravels.

The RP for DR trade is awesome. Will go a long to helping us out, not to mention letting our workers put down some lumber mills too.