SGOTM 02 - VQ Black

[namliaM]

Maybe Barcelona should be farmed instead of cottaged, growing it quickly to whip out galleons and samurais.

We should try and get Barca to 5 or 8 hammers per turn and at +food enough to whip every other turn like Kyoto for Samurais... This could even be size 2 if need be, but will probably be something like size 6 or 7.

I tend towards growing Osaka myself.

Yes grow it... Commerce and (real) production from Osaka

Cordoba could be good for supporting finances but, again, can we really get anything substantial out of it in time to support the war effort? Probably not..... etc

Not really for war, but it has so few productive tiles Both in hammers and in food that the only sence that Cordoba makes is: Get a market and grocer in there (a lib if that makes enough sence) Cottage it up. Try and make lots of money in there... This with Osaka together will be our 2 "commerce centres". It could make sense to whip/build Missionaries from Cordoba but only whip when we reach the happy cap, due to the low food in Cordoba... It will not be fast producing anything there... But this is the only thing that makes sence to me...

As namliaM points out, we just aren't going to get cottages up to snuff in time to help finances all that much. Build farms, workshops or watermills. Speaking of watermills, I think we should build those on the river in Osaka rather than workshops. They will give us the same hammers for now plus some commerce.

"up to snuff" Wow I found a friend in "screw the economy" ??
Re: watermills... Hmz... Intresting... Something to consider definatly... Tho I think we can reach 24 raw hammers without them. Just cottage/farm it up every coin in there helps double time (+75% )......

Whipping in BT is becoming a little more clear but I'm not sure I have it down pat just yet.

We should have someone build a simulation of our major whipping cities...
1) Kyoto
2) Edo
3) Barca
4) Madrid
If I get the time I wil try to... This way we can practice... Please do take note that all this whipping is MAJOR MM, you need to check each and every city every turn...

Basically, .... Maybe FP should go in Edo or the stone city.

I will skip this due to new information

Would putting HE in Kyoto benefit us any? ... Astronomy soon instead of archers or lbms.

Skip this too...

So I guess I'm kind of with namliaM right now. My builder instinct would normally side with the TLC in Hokkaido thought process but I think we need to be warring with a vengeance soon if we want to stay ahead of the rats.

Rats is that a synonym for the AIs? Or do you mean Rat pack

We also need to consider CFR. They worry me a bit because they have the highest score compared to everyone else around the 500BC mark. I kind of expect that they will start shooting up quite a bit earlier than the others. So basically, you can't look at how far ahead the rats are timewise, you have to look at how the teams compare at particular points in history. I just fear that CFR or somebody will creep along and beat the snot out of all of us.

All we can do is our best and hope its good enough...
That is what we are talking/discussing all this for. Decisions made dont undo themselves...
I.e. If I could do the game over, I would found all 3 BT cities ASAP. Thus increasing early science dramaticaly for low upkeep while the capitol is there.
Jumping the palace was a good thing I think (look at the science from Osaka), tho keeping the palace in Kyoto would have allowed us to trade with an AI health resource(s) for Iron... Whipping possibly allready Swords/Axe and Catapults. Upkeep on Hokkaido would have been managed with the FP...

In closing, lets get to putting the smack down on Mansa pretty soon. Take Timbuktu, convert to Judaism and get the borders popped plus some brownie points from Bizzy, Hatty, and Mao. Hopefully keep them at bay for a little while, Mao especially. Get iron in Kyoto from Timbuktu, possibly Hokkaido with Astronomy. Question though, can we still get iron from Hokkaido if it has to pass through Hatty and Mao's coastal waters and they close borders? Good reason to get iron in Timbuktu so that Kyoto can crank out Samurais. Grenadiers will be good later since we no longer need a resource but cannons will still need the iron.

As long as we have OBs with one AI that has harbors on both sides of the Mainland we can transport the Iron to BT... Tho we should aim to make that connection ourselves ASAP. Good point !!

Whose next after Mansa? ...that regard, which is a good sign and yes, leave the roads, we want quick movement through unclaimed territory whenever possible)

skip thid

Anyway, those are my thoughts, for what they are worth.

I for one found it woth while...

 

[namliaM]

Is this a sure thing though? I vaguely remember it being discussed some a page or two back but I'm not sure if it was confirmed. My assumption would be that free religion allows the culture and not just no state religion. I lean towards converting to Judaism for brownie points with the Jewish bloc and for getting culture in Timbuktu.

The browny point wont do us much good once we start attacking one of them.. Tho it may help in holding them off till then...

Finaly I covered/read all the posts I missed till now sorry for the backtracking where applicible...

 

[bobrath]

Yes, you do get gold for pillage in neutral lands (you can even pillage your own resources). I don't know that you get any gold for pillaging a road, and honestly even if we did I'd still suggest that we should just leave roads behind. They won't benefit any new town that is founded, but they will allow us to quickly move up to it and retake it.

 

[Cosmichail]

I have been reading the many posts and to be honest I just think we are getting ahead of ourselves. We should just plan on a turn by turn basis and let the player who is playing at the time make the best decisions they deem at the time. Sometimes too much information is as bad as not having enough. It's why Bob's post got overlooked.

So why don't we put forth short term goals bearing in mind that we are at some point going to war. We can't plan for everything as the AI's may cause us to react differently.

1. How fast do we want Astronomy? (right now 22 turns)
Remove all the scientists and it will be like 30 turns.
2. We attack MM now or wait.
I felt that at one point NamliaM wanted it right away but I notice in the post that he mentions we should wait?
3. Do we completely ignore infrastructure and build nothing but units?

Have we looked to see what our gpt is at 0% and how many more units we could sustain without going negative. The logistics of moving troops back and forth from Hokkaido/BT is a factor in how fast we take out cities for the gold.

4. Are we considering how fast the AI will improve their military?

Meaning we start with MM and then HC, could it be by the time we reach Mao/Hatty/Bismarck we could be up against infantry. Don't forget the AI trades heavy with each other (especially Bismarck). Are we truly considering the time factor in what it will take to:

A. Take out MM/HC
B. Mao/Bismarck/Hatty (not necessarily in that order)

Obviously this can not be timed as such and we should simply keep a short term goal in mind looking to a long term ideal. (conquest war)

I played not that long ago with a team on Monarch that well are quite the warmongering team and by the time we finished it was 1814 conquest. We started on the stronger AI's first (so as to keep our window for Cossacks open) and then on the weaker AI's to keep our dominance. By going after the weak first only give the stronger AI's time to advance and obsolete our units. Mao is teching pretty good and likely will get to rifles soon. I have found that grennies only do well against wounded rifles ergo needing lots of cats to accompany them. Grens do not fair well at all against cd2-3 rifles. Cavalry can take grens out rather easily.

Pigswill touched on the possibility of whilst we are warring away that our economy tanks out and we have difficulty building more units. I tend to agree and whilst the math has been on the whipping ad nauseum. have we considered how many units we truly can sustain right now. We could say screw the economy but when you are in the middle of warring and units start disbanding then what? Nobody goes to war without recognizing the ability to pay for it. My most important question is this:

Can we afford to? Put the slider on zero and see what the gpt is and then divide that by the factor of troops being on foreign soil and then consider what we can build. If they are on foreign soil the costs rises to not quite 2 gpt per unit but in between 1 and 2. (Yes we will gain wealth by taking/razing cities. Again how many cities could we theoretically take in one player's turn 2-3 depending on circumstances)

One more thing that isn't being considered here as well and I as a lurker had to point this out in the SGOTM01 to the VQ team which if I hadn't you guys would have been caught (literally) with your pants down. Remember the Defensive pact between Roosevelt and Saladin. Well are we considering that once we get warring that some of the stronger AI's might do this. There is more to this than warring away and diplomacy is going to play a role as well. Don't think you can steamroll them all without let's say Bismarck/hatty or Mao going into a defensive pact once MT is discovered. (I have found Bismarck is one do that rather quickly)

If we are in a rush to conquer then we should start with the strongest first. Kill their ability to tech us out with superior units. So start with Mao then Bismarck and then Hatty or whomever is the most advanced/strongest. Going after MM is a waste of a unit superiority window. (unless we use the BT army which is doing nothing but keeping the pop happy)

NamliaM please don't counter every paragraph I write with your opinion. Simply put I know these facts from my own gameplay and SG play with a team that is quite good. Nothing will change that and I doubt that Pigswill/Eektor/Bob/LuvtoBuild all good players in their own right will deviate from their own ideals simply because you say it isn't so. You made your point about whipping so let's move on already. Now we are stuck in the endless debate going nowhere. We can't foresee the events ahead of us so let's take it a turn at a time. Every player here is capable of making the right moves to that goal. We all are aware of the conquest goal and will adhere to that in our gameplay.

 

[pigswill]

You don't screw the economy. The economy screws you.

Edit: I'm sure we've all played games where Monte launches his army of 20-30 jags/swords/HAs against our 3-4 rifles/grens etc and loses quickly and decisively.
Do we really want to do the Full Monte?

 

[LuvToBuild]

Instead of running 2 scientists + Engineer + Citizen at size 8 we can run 1 engineer and 3 citizens. At current we are producing 5 hammers. This would add 3. Making it 8. (this btw just occured to me)
In above example we whip every 3 turns with 3*5 = 15 hammer and a whip. Now we make 8 hammers 2*8 = 16 hammers and a whip... We get EXACTLY the same with a whip every second turn without HE...

Well, not quite. I tried this and you're missing a hammer. The HE would give you 9 hpt while the citizens only give you 8, as you stated. This one hammer difference may not seem like much but it does seem to occasionally mean the difference between hitting the window, or having to wait another turn. In the simulations I ran, the window for a samurai was 49-59 hammers invested. I would tend to hit 47 or 48 every now and then. This meant having to wait another turn. Having the HE there pretty much put me in the window every other turn on a consistent basis. The other problem with running the citizen specialists is the fact that we won't be getting the 6 beakers every turn or the GS points. This may or may not be significant but the extra beakers and a GS or GE a little more often would be nice. However, I'm starting to lean towards having the HE and Globe in Madrid. More on that below.

Actually ... IIRC (No access to civ at the moment) Kyoto has 16 raw hammers at the moment.
Add 1 mined Plains hill (20) add 4 plains tiles (24) and 2 forrest (26).
Add 125% = 58 hammers or .... A samurai every 2 turns...
If Kyoto can get 24 raw hammers... Having the HE in it means a Samurai every 2 turns !!!

Same as Kyoto, Barca and Madrid I think... Madrid is actually hammer heavy for a samurai every 2 turns... Barca is low on hammers tho...

I think you meant Osaka. Assuming that's what you meant, Osaka would take a while to reach this potential given it's lack of a large food supply like Kyoto and Madrid. We'd also have to fire our scientists. As you said, Madrid has enough normal production that it could build units pretty quickly even without the HE. However, I would concede that having the HE and Globe there would not be a bad plan by any means. It might even be a better plan once the pop grows large and we have a lot of war weariness.

Do we want to do the MM of a Galleon chain??

I'm not sure what you meant by this comment. We'll have a lot more moving of galleons between Hokkaido and the ring than we will between Kyoto and the ring. We won't need as many galleons in the BT area as we will between Hokkaido and the ring.

Madrid is verry food rich besides having SOME hammers.....Besides that Madrid has something like +12/+14 food. I would think it be a whipping place like Barca and Kyoto.

I don't recommend we whip Madrid if we put the HE and Globe there. I don't think there would be any point. The HE would give us a Samurai every two turns anyway. Why not just let grow it and work the coastal tiles, plus put a few specialists in there. An engineer, 2 scientists, and maybe 2 merchants.

Research wise I think we are pretty much on the same wavelength. Finish Astronomy, trade for Guilds and/or Engineering. If we can only get one, I recommend Guilds since that puts us on the Gunpowder path and gives workshops an extra hammer. Knights would be good for pillaging and as a counterattack force if the AI invades Hokkaido. Get Gunpowder, Chemistry, and Steel. Anything else we can pick up along the way through trading or pointy stick research is icing on the cake. Oxford and Wall Street would be nice but I don't think they should be priorities and probably aren't that significant within the time frame we have for finishing this game. Even the Globe isn't a huge priority but it would be nice in Madrid or a heavy whipping city.

We should pop a Great Person in Kyoto soon. If we get lucky and pop a GE, I recommend using him to grab Gunpowder if possible. I'm assuming we would need both Engineering and Guilds for that to be available. If it ends up being a GS or GP, I think we should try and get him back to Hokkaido. I think merging him in Hokkaido would do more good since we will be more likely to have the proper multiplier buildings there for maximizing his per turn output. If we ever get an Artist we could grab Nationalism at some point with the right prereqs. Having a GE around too would be good for a quick Taj and a golden age. This is probably a pipe dream but you never know I guess.

I'm a little unsure of whether we should whip in Barcelona or let it grow and get some cottages. I know they will take time to grow but they might be helping a fair amount by the time we get grenadiers. If by chance we get Printing Press along the way, they will be helping even more. So I'm not sure that I'm necessarily ready to say screw the economy. If whipping there is truly needed for replacement units, then ok. If we don't really need the units and they are costing us too much, why whip? We will be cranking out quite a few units already and we might not be warring the whole time so the strategy of propping up the economy through city captures and pillaging might not be possible all the time. We will need to support the troops during those times without totally screwing research or having to disband units. Having a grasslands cottage city, especially a holy city, might be a good idea. The extra food there could support an engineer and some priests for more gold and production.

I think we should hold off on attacking anyone until Astronomy is complete. This means slowing unit production and concentrating on infrastructure. However, build cats in Kyoto (maybe an archer/longbow for garrison duty in a BT city) and put the whipping overflow into the FP there. I don't think we can afford to put the FP off until we take Cuzco or any other ring city, wait for it to come out of revolt, then try to produce something with the culture pressing in on us. Not to mention we don't have and won't have a force serious enough to take on a powerful AI for a little while yet. Huayna/Bismarck/Hatty are all up there and we have to be prepared to fight their buddies too. My vote is for preparing to attack Hatty first. I think the longer we let her go, the harder she will be to take out. Hit her and hit her hard but not before having a reasonable force of sams and cats with the logistics in place to supply a steady stream of reinforcements. Pillage, raze, do whatever it takes to hurt her bad. If we can't kill her, we will at least set her back and even things up or maybe even put ourselves higher up on the food chain. Get a tech if possible in exchange for peace, then take on Bismarck or Mao next. Bismarck's more powerful but I think Mao is teching faster. Same process as Hatty, then go after the other one. Huayna aftrer that. By the time we are done with Huayna, we should prepare to hit Hatty again or whoever is at the top by then. If we're at the top, then hit the #2 guy and this time, try to kill them off. Then the #3 and so on.

Anyway, I know I was quiet and now I've come out and won't shut up I'll try to sit down and be quiet now. I think we are all mostly in agreement so let's get to playing again

 

[namliaM]

Cosmichail, I felt the only way to make sure I was responding to everything was to do it Paragraph by Paragraph... Just trying to make no one feel left out... AND not to miss anything...

1. Not removing the scientists in Osaka has Osaka on +3food and 24 total hammers (16 raw).
I would definatly want HE ASAP in Osaka, dont know about the team tho....
Getting the scientists to work the Mined plains hill and the Oasis... will double the growth rate of Osaka (+6food) and add 5 hammers (20 raw).
Right now the Rice in Osaka is not irrigated. Lets farm the grassland just NE of it this is a free extra food (+7) and one more when we work the grass land (+8).
If Osaka can pull 20 raw hammers and have HE that means a samurai every 2 turns.
22 raw hammers = Catapult each turn.
28 raw hammers = Grenny/Cannon every 2 turns.
So I think we want to max it at 28 hammers. This is the second plains hill (4 hammers) and 4 more (river) plains = 6 food. We should farm those plains tiles for now to stimulate growing... But we can make Cottages of them later (including the Flood plains). We have 5 pop left to grow... which is just 1 short and anything above that is to keep at max, while having WW or emacipation . We will get +2 of the whale and I am sure we will keep some cities supplying us Lux...
Incan lands will not help much in that department... (Wine and gold)
German lands hold Silk, Beaver, Ivory, Insence and Dyes... We dont need the culture bridge when we get to Astro...
Incan were the target due to the Pyramids... What do we want from that? Police State? Why? (WW or whip) Happyness we can solve with lux'... 25% boost to unit production? We will be whipping most our units dont need it. Plus its high upkeep...
US? We hardly have any cottage, let alone Towns. or Money to spend rushing stuff.
Representation, +3 beakers a specialist... Is it worth the higher upkeep?
HR we have allready... So why? Uhm, I dont remember...
So why not skip HC? and go after Bismark? He is closer has more lux and After him Hathy... If we go after Hathy first we have the risk of getting Bismark in our backs. With Bismark fist, if we get Hathy in to (they be buddy buddy) atleast its a 1 way fight... (east)
+ Berlin seems a PERFECT place to put the FP...
Hamburg is crap but for the silk. But munich and Cologne have beautifull developed cottages....


2. MM ASAP, but at current we have 9 catapults... We can add 2 catapults every so often... Maybe switch to LBs every so often... If we have 15 cats (on the mainland) and >5 LBs then maybe... but that will take a while to 1) produce them, 2) Transport them...
Production schedule?:
1 turn produce Cat,
2 turn Whip it,
3 Overflow to LB (45 hammers)
4 turn Produce cat
5 turn Whip it
6 Overflow to/Produce LB (90 hammers now, 15 overflow)
7 Overflow to LB (15+5)
8 Whip LB
9 Overflow to LB (see 3)
This works for both Edo (Get a barracks first) and Kyoto. 1 cat and 2 LBs every 6 turns for 2 whips.
An LB only whip production will not make things better.
4 turns production (to 20 hammers) and have "nothing" to do with the overflow.
At best we can have 8 LBs and 13 catapults in 12 turns. Now they need to be transported and we have to mind the Happy cap too... So we have to have some garrison in the cities untill Astro (and then still some). I think we are looking at atleast 20 turns of preperations...
So by the time we have Astro we may just have taken out MM....

3 GPT is 64 at 0% science. Once we get guilds we can put a grocer in Osaka (adding ~10gpt) and in Cordoba. Annexing some cottage rich cities from the AI will help... plus we get a 100 gold for every captured/raze city. You suggested 2 cities per 10 turns thats 20gpt...
Capturing more cities and geting pop up a little here and there will increase unit support as well. IMHO we cannot afford Vassalage...
So at 2gpt a unit and ~110gpt (64+10+20+a few courthouses on Hokkaido 2gpt each+a little growing, no capturing) we can sustain 50 more units... But we will not be researching and not be saving for upgrades...
Getting Memphis (the holy judaist city, with shrine) will help greatly in that aspect, as well will capturing Germany (Yummie Cottages...).

4. Once we take out 2 AI (other than Mansa) they will not improve that fast. Kublai is Lagging, so it will take away the trading ability. I think Hathy and Mao are tech leaders.
A few Grenadiers with Formation (+25% vs Mounted) and Combat 2 (Prereq to Formation, we get Combat 1 for free) makes the Gren 12 + 45% + 10% (defense bonus on flat land) = 18.6 vs Cavalry Combat 2 + Pinch => 15 + 45% = 21.75 Sure not great odds. Personaly I dont see that many Pinch promotions with AI... And other than a war with Mansa the continent doesnt look like it has been at war a lot. Take away Pinch, leave combat 2 =>15 + 20% = 18. At this point odds should be slightly in our favour...
But our big power is in numbers. For the short term (Samurais, no Grennie) we want/need some Pikes in the mix for Knights/Cavs.

Yes I remember the Defensive Pact of SGOTM1 but there is not much we can do about it. Once we go to war with Bismark it is likely that Hathy will join Bismark. Maybe even Mao...
Mao tho is pretty far away, but may send a big stack over the land. Which may be another reason not to take HC first, He is closer to Mao. Capturing cities there would put us closer to Mao...

On the full monty... Yes... 30 jags do nothing vs a few rifles. 10 cats and 20 Jags now thats a different story I think...

Edit: Darn Typo's

 

[namliaM]

Well, not quite. ... More on that below.

I will put together a test thing...

I think you meant Osaka.

Yes quite right... Osaka
Actually I made an error there. (I didnt have Civ at the time).
We need just 20 raw hammers not 26. 20 + 175% (HE + Forge + Buro) = 20 + 35 = 55 *2 = 110 (Samurai = 105)
No need for Osaka to grow.. It is there ....

Due to its great food Madrid for production would be better fit to whip. Horse (3 hammers) + CC on Plains hill with stone (3 hammers) + Copper (4) + Forrest (1)+ deer (1) = 12 raw hammers/turn.
Lose the Deer and Copper (-5) (plant another city south of Madrid to take advantage of those 2), add a forge (+1). You have 8 hammers/turn. +14 food/turn.
I will test, but that looks like the same as Kyoto, ie. a Samurai every second turn.
We would have to get Madrid up to 25 raw hammers to get a samurai every 2nd turn (produced, not whipped) we have 12 raw hammers now... that means we have to get 13 hammers somewhere. 2 from the Engineer
1 from a citizen each? => 11 citizens
Or replace cottages with Workshops. We can place 4 workshops, 8 hammers and 3 citizens.
So we have a choice. Put the HE in Madrid, max the hammers whitout whipping it. and produce a Samurai every 2 turns there. While we produce a samurai every 4 turns in Osaka. (3 samurais every 4 turns)
Or Whip Madrid for a samurai every 2 turns and produce a Samurai in Osaka every 2 turns. (4 Samurais every 4 turns)

I suggest not building Globe at all... We can handle happyness prety much every (I think) with happy resources and a few Garison units (HR)

Galleon chain/Ship chain. By stepping from ship to ship on the same tile you can move a unit all the way across the world in 1 turn. A lot of MM.
We will need some good number of Galleons/Frigates in BT too. If only to defend the nets of Kyoto and Edo...

If at any time we cap on Units offcourse... please continue to build something/anything usefull or even semi usefull...

Please keep this going ... I think we come up with some good points...
I will try and put together a testing ground to test my/our whips make sure they hold water...

Meanwhile we should compile a list of conclusions from the last few pages, maybe even before we continue playing. Tho we should start again in the next few days?
I think for example that we really need to figure out where to put HE and start that ASAP.

 

[pigswill]

I may as well mention theocracy which is worth having (particularly if running bureaucracy instead of feudalism); starting with CR2 is much better than CR1 and promoting survivors. Does mean we have to decide on a religion and export it to every unit-building city (i.e. every city).
The more we debate strategy the more convinced I am that we should not be building any units at all at present; once we're in full time war-mode its time to whip whip whip but its an unnecessary luxury at present.
If we are going for hathy or bismark then it makes sense to me that we should be sending our BT units in that direction to start a two front war.
I still disagree about Osaka; we need at least one properly developed city to keep the economy going (and commerce can be easily diverted to research or cash); we can develop alternative whipping cities (even if they produce samurai every four turns or grenadiers every six) but its difficult to rush produce a major commerce city.

 

[namliaM]

What do you disagree about Osaka? I get the idea I am suggesting whipping it... I am not... It is normal production I am talking about...

Mostlikely our biggest commerce centers will be comming from conquest tho... Did you have a look at the save? And at Germany? Wow som villages even towns in there

Theo is good, but we need to find a religion (Confusionalism is the most obvious) and spread it to Hokkaido and BT (at least), then maybe to conquered cities...

 

[pigswill]

Problem with capturing commerce cities is that they lose all culture buildings when captured (including library, university) and half the other buildings so even the ones that ain't razed won't contribute that much. If you capture cities quick enough and pillage you might be able to run research at 100%, but if you're only producing 200 beakers (intentional hyperbole) in your entire empire that won't help much. I am disagreeing about Osaka because its the only half decent science city we've got; I'd rather see cottages than workshops. We still have to get to chemistry somehow; the sooner we do that the faster we conquer. There's little benefit in taking so long to get to grenadiers that they're facing tanks/ marines/ artillery.

 

[bobrath]

Ok folks... we've talked and talked and talked... Any war is not going to happen next turn. If the next player up (pigswill I believe) has questions about his ten turns, then ask those. Otherwise - lets play.

 

[namliaM]

OK so I made the test... (see attached save) It includes Kyoto, Edo, Kagoshima (BT) Barcalona, Madrid and Osaka (not for whipping! but so we can experiment with HE)
Kyoto can do 8 hammers, but doesnt have enough food to grow a pop in the 2 turns.
So yes 2 turns in Kyoto is not possible...
I still think HE is a waste in Kyoto. Because Kyoto currently has 5 hammers.
Turn 1 5
Turn 2 Whip Samurai for 2 pop (135 hammers + 5 = 35 overflow)
Turn 3 5 + 35 = 40 (65 left)
Turn 4 5 = 45 (60 left)
Turn 5 5 = 50 (55 left) Whip the samurai for 1 pop (90 hammers + 5 = 35 overflow)
Thats theory anyway... In practice... A two pop whip yields not 135, but 132 hammers
And then reallity check
1 put 5 hammers in
2 Whip it for 2 pop (total of 137)
3 Overflow 137 + 5 - 105 = 37 ...
4 1st turn add 5 + 37 = 42... NO.. 41..

All in all we lost 4 hammers along the way darn rounding errors ...
We can correct for it, if we run citizens... Instead of Scientists...
Whipping from 50 hammers (55 left) yields not 90 but 88 hammers ... *sigh*
OK Kyoto:
We can sustain whipping every 3 turns on size 7, working the 4 big tiles. An engineer and 2 scientist.
Only on the whip turn we need to work 2 citizens to account for the 2 hammers lost. Or continually run 1 Engineer, 1 Scientist and 1 Citizen.

The point of HE is that we get 9 hammers per turn... which doesnt seem to match with the 3 * 5 = 15 hammers from the 3 turn thing... However since we lose 2 hammers on the whip and 1 more on the next turn... the math works.... We lose 3 add 18 = 15. The food seems to sustain a 6 to 7 pop too.

So assuming a constant Osaka @20 raw hammers per turn...
Osaka can yield 20 + 75% = 35 hammers per turn. 105/35 = 3... 1 samurai Every 3 turns.
Or
Osaka can yield 20 + 175% = 55 hammers per turn. 105/55 = 1.91 ... ~1 samurai every 2 turns.

Kyoto can whip a samurai every 2 turns or (Slightly better than) every 3 turns.

It still feels like a waste because you get 88 hammers per whip with or without HE... But it seems to not matter...

I did find out I made one HUGE error...
I was thinking if you whip 7 times in 15 turns. The first whip will be gone for the 8th time... Thats true...
However by the 9th whip the 2nd whip will still last some 12 turns... CHIT !...
This means that we do need Globe in Kyoto if we intend to whip it like crazy...

And Madrid and Barca are going to be of seriously less value in whipping if we want any kind of productivity from them ... CHIT CHIT CHIT
Barcalona we (I think) can put all workshops around due to its high food. Yielding 18 hammers and an occational whip because it still has +6 food...

Wow am I glad I did this test... I would have had us whipping ourselves into oblivion with this... Sorry guys...

If we put both Globe and HE into Kyoto (Must atleast get Globe in there)
The whip bonus then excists between 90 and 101 hammers.
Or:
Turn 1: put 4 hammers (or whatever less than 15) into a Samurai
Turn 2: Whip the samurai
Turn 3: Overflow into anything you like.
Turn 4: Back to 1
Which is a samurai every 3 turns and something else every so often (Globe?/Market?/Knight?/Cat?) Offcourse at some point you will finish to what your overflowing to... So it will be something like:
3 turns: Samurai
3 turns: Samurai
1 Turn: Catapult (2nd overflow should finish a cat)
3 turns: Samurai

In 10 turns we have 3*105+60 = 375 worth of hammers

Or with the HE
Turn 1: Put 9 into Samurai
Turn 2: Whip for 1 pop
Turn 3: Put overflow + Prod into Samurai
Turn 4: Whip for 1 pop
etc..
Every 2 turns a Samurai
In 10 turns we have 5* 105 = 525 worth of hammers.

Or with HE
Put 6 turns of 9 hammers into a Grenny (or overflow to it)
Turn 2: Whip it (1 pop)
Turn 3: Overflow into Grenny
Turn 4: Whip it (1 pop)
Etc...

At the max Osaka will generate 25 raw hammers. 43 after Buro and Forge.
A Samurai: 105 / 43 = 2.44 i.e. >2 Samurais every 5 turns
A grenny: 150 / 43 = 3.48 i.e. >2 grennies every 7 turns
With HE 43 + 25 = 68
A samurai: 105 / 68 = 1.54 i.e. >3 Samurais every 5 turns
A Grenny: 150 / 68 = 2.20 i.e. >3 Grennies every 7 turns.

Kyoto without HE
A samurai every 3 turns (whipping 1 pop every time)
A Grenny, wouldnt even try it...
With HE
A samurai every 2 turns (Whip 1 pop)
A grenny every 2 turns (Whip 1 pop)

So put HE in Osaka and we have about... (Samurais)
18 * 68 = 1020 / 105 = 9.7 samurais from Osaka + 6 Samurais from Kyoto = 15.7 in 18 turns.
or put HE in Kyoto
18 * 43 = 645 / 105 = 6.1 samurais from Osaka + 9 Samurais from Kyoto = 15.1 in 18 turns

It really dont matter 1 Samurai in 36 turns in favour of Osaka, which may be cancelled out by the extra distance to travel?

Put the HE in Osaka (Grennies)
18 * 68 = 1020 / 150 = 6.8 Grennies from Osaka + 6 Samurais from Kyoto = 12.8 units
(Grennies without HE in Kyoto is just plain undoable, because for speed you want to be whipping 2 pop and you just cannot grow fast enough to sustain it IMHO)
or put the HE in Kyoto
18 * 43 = 645 / 150 = 4.3 Grennies from Osaka + 9 Grennies from Kyoto = 13.3 Grennies

We get a little more units out of HE in Kyoto AND they are 6 Grennies instead of 6 Samurais.
An upgrade from Samurai to Grennie is 155 gold So putting HE in kyoto will save us ~6 * 155 = 930 in upgrades every 18 turns = 51.666 gpt

Carefull conclusion would be to put HE in Kyoto...

@Pigswill it was allways my intension too to put as much (only?) cottage around Osaka, except for the hill.

Yes lets get the game on the road again, now that I have seen my failure...
For the next set(s) I see these points:
1) Get settlers out on Hokkaido to atleast The copper down south and Inbetween the wheat and Sheep just southwest of Osaka
2) Start Theatres where possible as soon as possible...
3) Start whip overflowing into HE and a theatre in Kyoto
4) Keep whipping Catapults in Kyoto. Whipping a Catapult in Kyoto is Happy neutral (+1 and -1) untill Globe is in when we can remove them all and move in on MM and the other AI...
Catapults are whip bait between 4 and 14 hammers invested.
5) Get barracks into Edo before finishing that catapult and stop whipping there for a while...

I would still kill the 2 scientists in Osaka, to promote growing.
I would also lose the Priest in Barca...
I would also (temporaly) lose the 2 scientists in Kyoto, we can sustain pop 7 therea allowing use to work the 4 big food tiles and run 2 scientists and the Engineer. This will cause Kyoto go from 13/6 (beakers/Gold) to 8/8 for 1 turn. then to 12/8 for 2 turns, to ~16/8 (beeing a bit carefull) Lose 7 beakers in 3 turns, win 6 gold. Win 3 beakers/2gold a turn after that...
After 3 turns we are in the black

 

[pigswill]

Ok capn and team-mates; had a quick read through but its midnight and I'm old and tired so I'll play in the morning. Got it (I may have said that about three or four days ago but I'll say it again. My machine is happier and on autosave each turn so I'm not anticipating hardware problems).

 

[namliaM]

From the last turnset:

bobrath --> OUR SHOGUN
namliaM --> killed off the psycho chick
Cosmichail --> just played --> feeling rather evil tonight but no fun with war for me
Pigswill --> UP --> monitoring the resident pyschopath (now who would that be??)
LuvtoBuild --> on deck --> all sit at the campfire listening to his stories (psychokiller hiding in the bushes)
Eektor --> Will his wrath be exerted upon the heathens of the other continent

I went thru the last 3 pages since the last turnset and tried to pick up the usefull info in this 1 post... I hope I didnt leave out anything... Some (semi-) open points still there or to be desided when the time comes...

a) Whipping info
LBs are whippable from 19 hammers thru 29...
Cats are whippable from 4 hammers thru 14...
Samurais have 2 windows
1) 1 thru 14 hammers (for 2 pop without HE, 1 with HE)
2) 49 thru 59 hammers (for 1 pop)
Grenadiers (Only with HE) 49 thru 59 hammers
Cannons (Only with HE) 49 thru 59 hammers

Whip Catapults in Kyoto (happy neutral) and overflow into HE (for now), Globe when it becomes available. Potentially switch to Samurais once we have HE.

To whip Kyoto every 2nd turn we need to allways run 1 Engineer.
With the food there we should continually stay in size 6/size 7

b) State religion
Do we want it? And if so Theology/OR? (see also g)

c) City designations
Cordoba + Osaka = Commerce
Madrid, what do we do with it? Keep the Cottages for now, Workshop up later? => Potential GP farm to trigger a GA?
All the rest try and max Hammers/Workshops?

d) Settling
Settle Hokkaida ASAP, 2 more cities + Barb city? or do we want to fully claim Hokkaida?

e) The FP
With both HE and Globe in Kyoto, where do we put the FP? Berlin?

f) Bleeding hands
"Whip untill your hands bleed" In Kyoto... be a bit more carefull in other cities (for me in particular )

g) Relations
Current religion issues are:
-1 Bismark
-1 Mao
-2 Kublai
-4 Hatty & Mansa (only a few cities left!)

Total modifiers
-9 Mansa (Furious) (only a few cities left!)
-5 Hatty (annoyed)
+1 Mao (Cautious)
+3 HC (cautious)
+5 Bismark (Pleased)
+9 Kublai (Pleased)

h) Targets
Targets: Mansa, Bismark, Hathy (in that order?)

i) Astonomy in
- Watch our commerce Kick up when we discover Astro due to trade routes.
- Trade for Guilds and Engineering?
- Try for a trailing Gunpowder/Paper/Nationalism trade?

j) Domination/conquest
Look out for the domination limit, we need conquest...

k) Stopping research
At what point do we want to stop research? Chemistry? Steel?
Do we need Cavalry and/or Rifles?

Research Goal(s):
- Grenadiers (Guilds (2242) => Gunpowder (2691) => Chemistry(4036) & Engineering (2242) )

1st optional:
- Drafting and +2 for barracks (Nationalism) (4036)

2nd optional:
- Cannons (Steel) (6279)

3rd Optional:
- Knights (Guilds, also in 1st)
- Cavs (MT) (4485)

4th optional:
- Riffles (Riffling) (5382)

I think the past pages have been quite usefull tho maybe not very VQ.

 

[bobrath]

Switching to NSR has a couple benefits. It removes all those negatives in our relationships AND if one of the big kids comes along and asks to convert to their state religion, we pick up a +1 with them for doing that along with the natural positive for sharing a religion.

FP... put in a newly captured city that has a good chunk of hammers. Pretty much anywhere we put it on the ring will go a way to defraying distance costs. Of course the central areas (as opposed to too close to the poles) will be better. Since our goal is conquest, we won't be keeping a ton of cities anyway and that mitigates the maint cost. Ideal area for the FP is (imo) in the BT. We just don't have the hammers to produce it in time to make a difference without giving up military production.

 

[pigswill]

Hi chaps, played my 10. Save posted. Details to follow. Highlights:-
i)Captured barb city (Khoisan), lost a samurai and sword (it was defended by a CG3longbow and CG1longbow).
ii) We converted to Judaism at Bismark's request.
iii) Founded another city; Osaka to produce settler next turn.
iv) Built 4 theatres, 1 building, maybe 6th in Osaka after settler.
v) Building round; ended with fewer units than we started.
vi) Astronomy now 16 turns away at 40% research (break even point).
vii) I've been setting up Cordoba as our holy city and confu as our religion-to-be; caravel waiting to take first missionary to Kyoto. Other caravel at Kyoto waiting to pick up GP (due soon, could be eng or sci).
viii) Hatty has built Versailles. First target?

 

[namliaM]

Building the FP one way or another is going to cost us Hammers => military....

I think we will be less picky at first for we need production first and formost...
So most of Germany and Mansa Land will be kept if not to Crappy

2 Candidates for the FP on the mainland: Berlin and Timbuktu....


Berlin (with expanded culture ) has 21 raw hammers (assuming the forge doesnt survive.

Timbuktu has 13 hammers that we can see... and a forrest more to chop.

Berlin by the way will be a PRIMARY target for the German war. Berlin houses the HE...
I cannot find HE in any of Hatties cities....

The point of Berlin I think is that it has BT due NW
Hamburg and Munich will make great commerce cities with the Cottages allready in place
Hamburg in particular is very low on food tho...


Essen is just NE of Berlin, which if we can get some irrigation to it seems like a decent producer...


And finaly due SE of Berlin we find another fair producer: Cologne


With all of these cities making nice additions to our empire (I think) we get very low upkeep for them by putting the FP in Berlin.
And German lands hold some nice lux too to up our happy cap...

viii) Hatty has built Versailles. First target?

Where where where

v) Building round; ended with fewer units than we started.

Meaning you didnt whip Kyoto and start HE?

 

[namliaM]

Looking at the save... Why not whip Kyoto, but hand build a market? If you dont want to whip... Why not invest in HE...
A market is going to net us 2gpt (+3gpt/merchant if we run a merchant). OK Getting 6 free gpt is nice enough, but why stop the whip?
I know... Units kill the economy right? We have 147 gold in the bank

I would pick up the Missionary near Osaka, its a few turns shorter travel...
Speaking of Missionaries by the way are 60 hammers just like a Catapult... Just in case you ever feel like whipping one
I am allmost shocked that you whipped Cordoba and with 28 overflow too ... Good job
Lets get Osaka confused so it too can build the Monastary for the 10% research bonus... (worth it? I dont know 90 hammers for 2 beakers per turn)

Wow good exploring China = small, Kublai is big tho...

Versailles (Egypt) is all it says... We know its not in Thebes and not in Memphis (top 5 city screen) Memphis does hold Sistine chaple. Allowing us to pop borders with any specialist (not just Artists).

Nice turns, we are moving again

P.S. Sorry if I am asking questions (again) to much... Just wondering...

 

[bobrath]

Pending Pigswill's post, if Versailles is indeed in Egypt... then putting the FP down in Germany loses some of its appeal.

Good to hear we got a request to move to a new religion.