pigswill said:
You having done the maths I'll go with Kyoto as 1 samurai/3 turns indefinitely without HE/Globe and that can start as soon as we have iron available (tho in fact this also has to wait on astronomy for the happy resources). So we'll look elsewhere for HE; it would be foolish not to build it somewhere; it costs 200 hammers but after 5 galleons/frigates/samurai it makes a profit.
Yes definatly build HE someplace. I think we get it up the quickest and start using it ASAP in Osaka... But we are disputing that more or less cause we MAY want to put Oxford in there.... on day .... > 100 turns from now?
By which time we could can produce a samurai every 4 turns (without HE) bringing 25 Samurais.
or invest 2 sams (8 turns, 200 hammers) for HE now and build a samurai every 2 turns. 100-8 = 92 / 2 = 46 Samurais.
Tho for the whipping to start happening (i.e. Cats) we dont have to wait for Astro... We just need to garison some more units... which will free up after astro...
Cats/LBs/Archers I cannot find a good rithm for that...
pigswill said:
Edit: Had another look at the save. We're not only too far behind to trade for any tech but our current economy and research rate indicates that we'll never be able to tech trade; that means researching the hard way. At 100 beakers/turn (current break even rate) that's a lot of turns. Cats help a lot but a stack of samurai against grenadiers or rifles is still not great odds and it needs to be considered that AI can use cats against our stacks as easily as we can use cats against their cities. Yes, we'll probably be able to wipe out Mansa but that's not going to win us the game.
AI dont use catapults
as much in my experience... I had a look at the save as well... Only Mao has Astro at the moment. I am hoping we can trade Astro for atleast Engineering (2200) and Guilds (2200).
Maybe Guilds and Gunpowder (2691)?
Leaving Gunpowder (2691) => Chemistry(4036)
With our current economy (which will still increase slightly... due to some cottages beeing added to Osaka and some more cities beeing build on Hokkaido) after we send the scientists home we do 50% science at -8gpt producing ~108 beakers at the moment.
If we can capture/raze 1 city every 10 turns (100+gold) we can hold that science rate.
Or we can add 5 courthouses (which we need for the FP if we want that anyway) on Hokkaido in Madrid, Barca, Seville and Satsumo (Cordoba allready has one) and save 2gpt each on maintenance putting us break even on 50%.
In a few turns with the scientists returning to Kyoto we run 115, with 61 of those comming out of Osaka (33 raw beakers).
Osaka can in fact get atleast get 3 more (1 grassland and 2 forrest grasses) cottages, to improve science slightly...
To get to education where we can build a University (in Osaka for example) we need Paper (1345) => Education (4036).
Lets assume that by then our economy has grown to 200 raw beakers (which is way more than 100% increase) over 5300 / 150 = 35 turns.... and we immediatly install the University every where thats 25% bonus beakers. 25% of 200 = 50 beakers each turn.
5300 / 50 = 106 turns to just break even on researching Paper & Education.
Not to mention the investment of hammers.
Then we assume Osaka to have grown to 60 raw beakers (~100% gain over 35 turns) and we Magicaly get Oxford into Osaka (ie. Immediatly)
This would mean 60 raw beakers (100% bonus)
So we get an extra gain of 60, total gain: 50 + 60 = 110
5300 / 110 = 48 turns to break even.
Now we have an economy sustaining 310 beakers a turn (way more than triple our current) so we can research Gunpowder (2691) => Chemistry(4036)
Total of 6727 / 310 = 21.7 turns
This means to get Chemistry (offcourse still assuming we trade for Guilds and Engineering) in 35 + 21= ~56 turns
This is assuming offcourse a great increase in our economy.
Lets assume again that we trade for Guilds and Engineering. But this time beeline for Chemistry 6727 / 115 = 58.5 turns that is with NO increase in our economy.
So assuming a great increase in our economy Spamming Universities everywhere allmost immediatly... we gain 2 whole turns on Chemistry vs a setting where we have no increase what so ever (not even an Observatory in ie. Osaka, no markets/grocers/courthouses no where....)
Just the observatory in Osaka = 25% of 33 = 8 beakers. 6727 / (115 + 8) = 54.7 turns. with an investment of 225 hammers (2 samurais).
Even with above increase of 100%, 60 raw beakers... thats 15 beakers bonus (we would have the increase with or without the Obs, so dont need to account for that). 6727 / (115 + 15) = 51.7.
So if we account for only an Observatory in Osaka with no growth not researching Paper/Education will be 1 turn faster.
With or without Education we will want to stop research here for a while to get in some big upgrading of our top Samurais.
I will just repeat this (and change it a little)
Well what is our goal? Conquest right? Right...
What do we need?
- Catapults (we have)
- Samurais (we have)
- Galleons (we have, in ~30 turns)
- Theology (+2xp)? => Higher upkeep, Need state religion, which we may not want at the moment. And needs the religion in our production cities to be effective, this means Missionaries (60 hammers each) worth it??
1st Optional:
- Grenadiers (Guilds (2242) => Gunpowder (2691) => Chemistry(4036) & Engineering (2242) )
2nd optional:
- Drafting and +2

for barracks (Nationalism) (4036)
3rd optional:
- Cannons (Steel) (6279)
4th Optional:
- Knights (Guilds, also in 1st)
- Cavs (MT) (4485)
5th optional:
- Riffles (Riffling) (5382)