SGOTM 02 - VQ Black

pigswill · Sep 10, 2006

Actually bureaucracy is not KEY at all; it is +50% production and commerce in one city; feudalism is +2 xp for every city that builds a unit; more significantly its 1 promotion e.g. +25% city raider for every grenadier (upgraded sam) and cannon produced anywhere in our territory. More powerful units means quicker victories and lower losses means faster city-capture and less money needed for upgrades (and fewer hammers needed for replacements); is also an extra promotion for every ship we build and you don't have to worry about a city being confu, judaic, buddhist or atheistic.You can also have seige with accuracy promotions off the factory floor which cuts down on the number of units required. You can certainly capture any city if you throw enough weak units at it; the problem is you lose 90% of the weak units and get huge war weariness; its a very inefficient (wasteful) way of war-mongering.

namliaM · Sep 10, 2006

I think I lost 10 Catapults and 1 Gren to take 4 cities... (lost a few more units on counter attacks... but we will keep having that problem...)

With cannons now we are going to lose less of them... I think you just have to pick the fights... We will have the losses of cats/Cannons anyway as they allways face the hardest defenders...

Osaka right now gets (60 raw commerce + 50% buro) + 5g (Priest) = 95 + 100% (Market + Grocer + Bank) = 190 gold per turn
without buro: 65 + 100% = 130 gpt
60 gold is ~20% of our budget at 0% Science
Sam => Gren upgrade = 155 gold ~2 upgrades in 5 turns.

Hammers 27 raw hammers
47 with Buro (a little more than 4 Sams in 9 turns, 6+ in 13 turns)
33 without. (a little more than 4 sams in 13 turns)

We lose well over 2 Sams in Osaka and lose the ability to upgrade ~6 Sams to Grens in 15 turns... :sad:

I dunno... Having CR2 out of the barracks offcourse is nice... but I dont know...

Looking forward to Cosmichail's set....

I hope I didnt leave to much in the ques....

P.S. Me taking 4 cities down wasnt as much my doing as it was bob's doing... He set me up NICE

Cosmichail · Sep 10, 2006

Ready to post my turn but I have to say that our army is getting so powerful. (OOOOHHHHH BABY you don't know the power of the darkside) that promotions aren't relevant anymore in my opinion. We have now so many strong cannons and grennies that we are invincible. MOHAHAHAHAHA....

During my turn I only lost two grens and one cannon and took/razed 6 cities.
The next player should be able to take/raze much of what is left on that little piece of Mao's land. Too bad he has that one city on HC's land but we could reach him from our east coast with a couple of grennies and cannons. Raze that irritating city on Hokkaido and voila no more Mao and more of those zeros to look at.

Cosmichail · Sep 10, 2006

Preturn

No tech trades left with Chemistry. (hey what happened to Education???)
No freebies from anybody DOH….

Turn 1

Moving troops towards Thebes and eventual crossing to Mao.
Osaka finishes Sam start Cannon
Tokyo finishes Cannon starts Sam
Khoisan finishes Sam start Gren

Turn 2

Cannon takes out rifle at Thebes
Cannon takes out rifle at Thebes
Cannon takes out rifle at Thebes
Gren takes out rifle at Thebes
Gren takes out rifle at Thebes

We take Thebes

Moving ships to top of Egypt to transfer army to China

Turn 3

Osaka finishes cannon start cannon
Madrid finishes sam start gren
Bombard Giza
Troop deployment
Cav takes out gren
Take out cav, gren, cat
Three armies converging on Mao
Hatty won’t give up a thing. Hook up silk will help with happy
No freebies.

Turn 4

Seville builds gren start another.
Kawisaki finishes courthouse start gren
Fuji finishes forge start gren
Bombard giza
Getting ready for Mao

Turn 5

Khoisan builds Gren start gren
Load 4 galleons for Mao

Turn 6

Osaka finishes cannon start gren
Cordoba start temple unhappy
Bombard Giza
Loose Cannon, take out rifle
Ready to attack mao but that stinking Giza holds out for another turn.

Turn 7

Tokyo builds Sam start Gren
Loose musket trying to take out Giza argh
Declare on Mao
GS in Kyoto but with the action leave him there for now.
Bombard Beijing

Turn 8

Mao attacks with one cannon. (he’s really aggressive this one)

Elephantine builds cannon start theater. (could use some culture to fill up void.)
Take out rifles in Shandong and capture it. It is autorazed with one citizen only.

At Beijing loose no soldiers and take out 4 rifles and one cannon and one cat.

Turn 9

Take Giza (finally that city was a pain) and Hatty is finished. (forget to raze it in my anger with it)
Troops landed at Ghangzhou and it is a keeper with the Great Lighthouse.

Turn 10

Osaka finishes gren start cannon
Take out one of Mao’s frigates
Take out one of Mao’s galleons
Bombard Ghangzhou
Loose one cannon.
Grens take out all rifles (4)
Capture Ghangzhou get Great Lighthouse.
Cannon attacks Macau and WD.
Capture Macau and raze it.
We get two workers.
Happiness is good so dropped to 10% culture and added 20% science to help getting MT.

Spoiler :

bobrath · Sep 10, 2006

Cosmichail said:
Ready to post my turn but I have to say that our army is getting so powerful.

Having read nothing else but this.... There's a big smile on my face.

Cosmichail · Sep 10, 2006

Spoiler :

The log wouldn't fit all on one page so here's the rest. Phew this took all afternoon DOH.......

And last but not least the save of course:

The Save

Go get em Pigswill and eat them alive.......

(PS THAT WAS FUN WOOOOOHOOOOO)

We are at the top now and passed the ratpack (well by 4 points and they are 3 years ahead)

bobrath · Sep 10, 2006

I need to stop setting folks up so well... three sets of turns later and the war will be all over and it will up to me ... TO SET IT UP. (yes I'm complaining about our sucess. hee hee)

Cosmichail · Sep 10, 2006

I agree Bob you did set it up well for us.

pigswill · Sep 10, 2006

Got it. Definitely think we should swop to feudalism despite anarchy; we gain 25 free units =25gpt to offset loss of income; so many cities building units it hasta be worthwhile.
Polish off Mao is the obvious first objective. Biz currently matches us on power so that'll be an interesting scrap but once that's sorted it should be virtually home run (he said optimistically). We could chicken out and leave Biz until last but I'd rather take him out next.
If bobrath is really upset about missing out on barbaric genocide I'd be willing to swop but equally willing to play.

bobrath · Sep 10, 2006

Proposed:

Keeper List:

Nanjing (Taj Mahal and many towns)
Shanghai (Capital Site and even more towns)

Raize:
Xian, Chengdu, TIanjin, and Hangzhou

We'll be fighting off seed cities north of Alexandria since its such a large chunk of unoccupied land (and we all know how much AIs hate that!). Ideally Bismark drops one there and we can leave it be instead of having to backdoor attack another 3rd party.

Anyway, great to hear (and see since I downloaded the save) the progress we've made. Depending on the contents of Shanghai, Mao is already roasted. Lets keep the hurting going.

It will be two turns of anarchy to switch (not one), so keep that in mind. GO ahead and play. I'm sure there will be war awaiting me as well.

EDIT:
Taking out Bizmark next while tough... would give us Versailles and that will make a world of difference in our economy.

Cosmichail · Sep 10, 2006

I sooner see us get missionaries from Alexandria to Hokkaido to make use of theocracy. Osaka is a powerhouse city with that boost and with theocracy will pump out promoted units like crazy. The majority of what we need is on the ring and losses against Mao will be low. We have three (maybe 4) armies that could be put together after Mao campaign and go for Bismarck next but I'm not liking that Huyana right now. Bismarck though is a threat and getting Versailles will be a big help. I wouldn't waste time on doing Vassalage and rarely ever use it.

EDIT:

After some thinking I think we should start a two tier war now. I think we are ready for it and aim for a fast conquest. Rather than mobilize the experienced highly trained army back to Old Egypt leave them there to take on Khan. Bring an army in from Hokkaido to take on the Bismarck. I would say we should strengthen our navy in his area somewhat as well and some extra pikes as Bismarck seems to have a lot of Knights running around. So far no Cavalry yet and he doesn't appear to have MT yet. (last time we had coffee). I left enough solidiers behind (experienced) that could be grouped to move towards Germany. Two galleons have soldiers enroute to the Ring. We do not need them in China and I think should be dropped in Old Egypt to reinforce the army there. Get a missionary or two back to Hokkaido from Alexandria, as the monastery is almost finished. Continue to reinforce Old Egypt from now on and once we finish China (not completely because of city near Huyana), take out Khan. The army in Old Egypt by then will be big enough and be able to take on the Bismarck.

Like WWII when the Russians/Allies squeezed Germany so can we by have two armies approaching from opposite ends. We have the power and Bismarck's power rating is high but no big deal in my opinion. Just pour cannons on him and he'll be finished too.

If we go this route gents I think then maybe we should suspend science for good. (yes NamliaM you have said this before and was right but just the timing is now since we have what we need in the way of strong forces) Once we get to Khan raze everything and don't keep anything. Just keep the army moving. The Bismarck campaign would be slow as we should take the cities as planned. After that I think everything should be razed including MM's and HC. Let's not waste anymore than we have to in the way of garrisoning.

pigswill · Sep 11, 2006

Spreading Judaism is certainly an alternative and 2 turns lost production is significant. I'll probably use Hokkiado units to wipe out mao city then stick some on galleons to finish off his HC city. its good to wipe out civs complete, preferably in one war.

namliaM · Sep 11, 2006

Wow 6 Cities... You did better than me... It is going to be tough for anyone to get 7

Cosmichail said:
Ready to post my turn but I have to say that our army is getting so powerful. (OOOOHHHHH BABY you don't know the power of the darkside) that promotions aren't relevant anymore in my opinion. We have now so many strong cannons and grennies that we are invincible. MOHAHAHAHAHA....

I seem to remember you beeing one of the fanatic "we need more than Grens"-party...
What happened ??

What is with building Grens on Hokkaido? Frigate, Cannons and Sams there please... We have the money for upgrades...
Grens come (whipped every other! turn) from Kyoto...

Keepers list: I agree with Bob... Maybe we can leave Mao with Tianjin and Hangzhou... For anything usefull, a tech (MT?) or some gold + GPT?

About Egypt... Lets turn the cities we kept into production things... We keep any towns to pay for their upkeep but the rest of the land IMHO should maximize hammers, i.e. Why the farm near Memphis? Workshops !
Alexandria IMHO should be workshopped to the max... Not a developed cottage near it... and the Pigs there make for high food... Workshop first the unfarmed tiles. Then workshop up the rest till we are on 0 food, get a granary, Courthouse (its cheap for us and save 7gpt), build some missionaries to send "home". Later add a barracks and start spamming units... This will turn into one of our big producers of units and its on the Ring allready

We do need 2 workboats tho ... 1 for Thebes the other for Memphis...

Lets keep spaming Samurais... CR3 Grens are fun against riffles in a city

(+135%) add in a few knights/Elephants for upgrades to Cavs and Cannons for Colatoral damage and City Bombard.
Note: I suggest not building a single Gren anywhere but for Kyoto ! Kyoto can whip any (defensive) Gren we need, while we promote and upgrade our Knights and Samurais.

Edit1: Bismarck is not that scary, he has quite a few riffles... but Grens eat Riffles for Breakfast.
Look at what he is fielding on the war vs Hatty... Not that much... I am guessing most his units will stay in garrison in the city(s) waiting for us to come and kill them.

Edit2: Stop research allready... Cavs are nice but do NOTHING vs Riffles.... Riffles have Cavs for breakfast (Yes rock/Sizor/Paper kind of thing).
We need the cash for upgrades a few knight for pillaging and later upgrades...

bobrath · Sep 11, 2006

namliaM said:
Keepers list: I agree with Bob... Maybe we can leave Mao with Tianjin and Hangzhou... For anything usefull, a tech (MT?) or some gold + GPT?

Once we remove the core three cities that Mao has, then I'd check to see what he'll give us to leave his two remote cities around. If its not dramatic, then take him out. The reduced unhappy in the former mao cities is well worth it. The chinese city on Hokkiado is falling in culture already, so it would eventually flip (not that we'd wait that long!). Given a choice, I'd remove the city on Hokkiado first and leave the city on HC's penninsula for last. Its getting squeezed and will be an easy target to pick up along the rampage. Raizing it now just means HC plops down a city there instead.

I agree with turning research off. We're probably not going to pointy stick anyone from here on out, so the goal is to make sure our units are massive in count and at the highest tech we can get them too. That means lost of money for upgrades.

Only reason to research anything else would be to get rifles to combat enemy mounted units, but that would remove our sam -> gren city raider promotion loophole.

Switching out to vass does lose two key turns of production. Since the ships are already making round trips from ring to hokkiado, get some missionaries over and we're even better.

Looking forward to your turns (and the demise of the chinese!)

Cosmichail · Sep 11, 2006

I seem to remember you beeing one of the fanatic "we need more than Grens"-party...
What happened ??

You're right we need cannons too. LOL (We have almost four armies so we NOW is the right time to focus on military alone). In addition we needed chemistry so needed science too but with Grens with so many promotions we won't need much more.

I put 20% science in the very last turn but it can be turned off. I just thought now that happiness became much less of a problem we could spread the 30% between culture and science. I realized now too why our happiness went way up as Hatty was on Emancipation and must have been the only one and taking her out stopped that.

That pointy stick doesn't work I tried many times to get gold (10gold she offered) and technology and they won't cough it up. Let's not bother and just take them out period. No 10 turns to slow it down please just keep going. We have the military and should nonstop war now.

As to building grens Namliam you were building them too so I don't get it and am building sams too but the Grens get promoted when attacking on the third round or so on a weaker unit and can upgrade to "pinch" which is just as good as CR imo. I did upgrade quite a few Sams to Grens and cat to cannons.

As to the workshops until we get communism (which we won't) we can only build so many before we need farms to be able to work them. So I would say a combo of farms/workshops is in order. Tokyo has too many workshops and I think NamliaM you put up the signs to put farms there as you can't work all the workshops that on plains yield no food and on grass yield only one until state property.

Again I am a warrior at heart and less of a builder. I just prefer to fight with a strong military and believed sams would not be enough. If we go against infantry my song might change but if we go with a two front approach I think we can move pretty fast and maybe even win this GOTM.

EDIT: Just bugging you NamliaM but WHY WHAT mmmmmmmm (LMAO old habits die hard aye good buddy)

Grens come (whipped every other! turn) from Kyoto...

This does not seem to be the case as I wanted to whip right away but 3 pop seemed excessive to me since it only had 7 pop. I waited until it went to 1 pop and even then there was no overflow. ?????

One last thing since we are turning off science let's turn those scientist into merchants and get great merchants instead. We also have a Great Scientist in Kyoto

namliaM · Sep 11, 2006

Cosmichail said:
As to building grens Namliam you were building them too

Uhm me? Cannot be... must be a mistake

As to the workshops until we get communism (which we won't) we can only build so many before we need farms to be able to work them. So I would say a combo of farms/workshops is in order.

combo yes... but IIRC @ memphis we are replacing a Workshop with a Farm that I think (may be that I am wrong) doesnt need to be replaced if we "hammer out" a Workboat to net the fish.

my song might change but if we go with a two front approach I think we can move pretty fast and maybe even win this GOTM.

Our difference was never about science, it was about the timing and the quantity...
Win the GOTM? Dont think we have a real shot but lets try (hard)

EDIT: Just bugging you NamliaM but WHY WHAT mmmmmmmm (LMAO old habits die hard aye good buddy)

WHY?

WHY?

As a programmer analyst I am programmed to ask questions... Its the way I try to understand things... I dont actually mean to sound "all knowing" if that is the way it looks/reads/sounds.

This does not seem to be the case as I wanted to whip right away but 3 pop seemed excessive to me since it only had 7 pop. I waited until it went to 1 pop and even then there was no overflow. ?????

This is the case... I will load up my last save and make screenies...

One last thing since we are turning off science let's turn those scientist into merchants and get great merchants instead. We also have a Great Scientist in Kyoto

We can keep a low burn towards MT, which may come in handy to upgrade the phants I build just for that purpose and some knights we may be building...

Cosmichail · Sep 11, 2006

but IIRC @ memphis we are replacing a Workshop with a Farm

I am not sure why I did that but think it was starving or something and did that, but Pigswill can stop it on his turn if he catches it. Also was building a forge and never really paid any attention to MMing that city re the fish.

I like the idea of a little science and like having Cavalry for fast advances and pillaging campaigns.

namliaM · Sep 11, 2006

Cosmichail said:
I like the idea of a little science and like having Cavalry for fast advances and pillaging campaigns.

Fast advances vs Riffles?

We have Knights allready to pillage... Cavs are just a little more resiliant (spelling?)

As prommised the screenies for whipping Kyoto...

I did notice on the last save Kyoto is out of synch...
Just hammer away at the gren to between 91 ( 2 * 45 + 1) - 112 (2 * 45 * 1.25) left and resume whipping...
(that is between 38 (150 - 112) and 59 (150 - 91) hammers invested)

It is a bit of an MM nightmare... The way I did it was to have a Galleon near by which I never put to sleep. This way you automaticaly get drawn to Kyoto without fail (also due to the Sign

)

A Cannon by the way is also 150 hammers, so we can switch to a Cannon every other turn just as easy... if we need some replacement cannons quick....

bobrath · Sep 11, 2006

umm.... I'm not sure what the story is for those three screens... What is it showing exactly? Esp cause it looks like the first and third sections are identical...

namliaM · Sep 11, 2006

bobrath said:
Esp cause it looks like the first and third sections are identical...

That is the point.... they are Identical...

I did paste over the 3 pop for a whip portion, but all else is "original"...

Just trying to show that we can whip a Gren (or Cannon) every 2 turns for 1 pop... while at size 7... working the 4 big tiles + an Engineer + 2 more specialists which really dont matter that much (Scientists or Merchants).

SGOTM 02 - VQ Black

fly (one day)

Deity

Dark Lord of The Sith

Dark Lord of The Sith

Emperor

Dark Lord of The Sith

Emperor

Dark Lord of The Sith

fly (one day)

Emperor

Dark Lord of The Sith

fly (one day)

Deity

Emperor

Dark Lord of The Sith

Deity

Dark Lord of The Sith

Deity

Emperor

Deity

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