On a river offcourse gives the +2 which is really a bonus adding to the allready great spot...
Also the river may just act as a road to our second third city...
Assuming that 1 mined & worked gems mine is enough to break even on our second city... working the second Gems will put us in the Black for founding this city...The earlier we achieve this, the earlier we have Archers.
Well, if our third city is founded on the same river, we will have an unpillageable trade route that might be helpful with raging barbs roaming the countryside. Getting copper or iron transported around with minimal roads is a good thing. In fact, if we find copper or iron ON the river, we would only need to defend the mine.
Assuming that 1 mined & worked gems mine is enough to break even on our second city... working the second Gems will put us in the Black for founding this city...The earlier we achieve this, the earlier we have Archers.
The 7 from working a gem mine on the river tile isn't going to cover the -7 (or worse since we're further inland) maintenance. We would have to run 0% for that to compute. At -7 in the 2nd city, we would need ~14 to run at 50% and not go bankrupt.
Makes sense on the river, I'm just trying to think outside the box.
LuvToBuild said:
I was originally leaning towards A but now I'm thinking B might be better. Mining the gems will help to boost science back up but our leader is right. Can we hold on to the mines against the onslaught? Can we build fog busters quickly enough to keep them at bay while our worker improves the countryside? Getting to Archery quicker will allow us to build better fog busters from the getgo so it might not matter if we don't have as many. Hopefully they won't die as quickly.
IMO, fog busters is... the optimal idea, but the more realistic will be to get our units into the best defensive spots and let them gain exp off the barbs. Once they hit the 10 exp max, then we move them out to fog busting. There are some forested hills and some river crossing forest arounds teal dot, so the more we can lure barbs into bad attacks, the better we'll be. I do understand the mental rush for hooking up the gems, but until we can be sure that we can hold a defensive spot with no bonus to the defender from terrain... we will get better use out of our hammers by pushing back the barbs then slowing growth for a worker that will spend most of the time huddled in the city.
If we can hold off on founding the second city (and I agree that teal is the best spot from what we can see) until we at least complete Hunting, then we're better off IMO. The second city will be a drain, there's no way to avoid that with Raging Barbs on the horizon.
I'm not sure I understand hiding the settler in the forest... why not have them sit on the founding spot? Is there something I'm missing?
Just pulled this from a thread over the general forum and wanted to pass it along if the PST desiring folks are worried about missing out on masonry:
If you have both Theology and Code of Laws and yet not Monarchy (prerequisite for Divine Right), Civil Service should be your Great Prophet's technology option, so you can have Masonry and still get a slingshot. Masonry is usually avoided because it takes you down the Monotheism-Theology path. If you self-research Code of Laws and build The Oracle for Theology for instance, you can still burn a Great Prophet on Civil Service.
Plan A: We should have 20-30 turns leeway before the barbs appear. Kyoto will be producing 11-12 commerce, new city (Tokyo?) will be producing 2-3 commerce; so 7 research/turn (goes up to 9 after Kyoto gets to pop 2). 15 turns to build a worker, 8 turns to build a warrior. By the the time barbs appear we should have a second city, a gem mine and a couple of warriors and be ready to produce archers.
Plan B:hang around until Kyoto researches hunting and archery; 12 commerce=12 research. Hunting+Archery 10-12 turns. Settle and start to build archer c12 turns. Second city, warrior,archer, probably 1/2 archer.
Well... Thanks for the ideas, but I went and played right after I posted... and this is what I came up with...
*geez* I didnt think I could make so many screenies of Nothing ...
Anyway, not thinking straight I sent the warrior south instead of north. Even before the settler got to its spot we meet allready our first "friend", or uhm GIRL friend actually.
Thats 3 turns of moving... or 6 tiles? Geez... OK maybe she pop a scout from a goody hut allowing for 8 tiles?? Ack !
A few turns later and our 2nd city is barely in place as the warrior pops a hut and we gain a scout...
Kyoto's borders expand to show of more land...
It is not as isolated as we thought it would be...
I added later some nets to the fish and added also a warrior to remove the -1 for not beeing defended... Later I added 2 citizens "on patrol" to speed up the 2nd workboat.... Kyoto now looks like ...
Jumping back a little in time, I found another GH.... but Issabella grabbed it, this will be known as the GH incident
This is the world as we currently know it...
Unfortunatly we cannot sustain the 80%, but I went with Mysticism for the obvious reason... Obelisks... But now I am thinking something else....
We want the Obelisk for the culture right? But we need hammers bad for Units... so an Obelisk is the least of our worries ATM...
Why not whip an Obelisk in Kyoto?? ==> Meaning Stonehedge???
Kyoto will not have much (usefull) to build soon, if we can get some turns of 2 hammers into and maybe some whip overflow from whipping say a galley or workboat... We might just be able to whip the Hedge into Kyoto...
Is that a good idea? or not? Anyway tech wize I switched to Mining immediatly then Hunting => Archery => Mysticism (2 or 3 turns left)
Our worker is all mined out and will have nothing but roading to do
And I accidentaly pressed enter 1 to many times the 2770 BC save Sorry
SpoilerAutolog after uploading :
Turn 3, 3910 BC: Osaka has been founded.
Turn 18, 3460 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 19, 3430 BC: You have discovered Mining!
Turn 22, 3340 BC: Barbarian's Wolf (1.00) vs VQ Black's Scout (2.20)
Turn 22, 3340 BC: Combat Odds: 0.6%
Turn 22, 3340 BC: (Animal Combat: +20%)
Turn 22, 3340 BC: (Class Animal Combat: +100%)
Turn 22, 3340 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 22, 3340 BC: VQ Black's Scout is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 22, 3340 BC: VQ Black's Scout is hit for 13 (74/100HP)
Turn 22, 3340 BC: VQ Black's Scout is hit for 13 (61/100HP)
Turn 22, 3340 BC: VQ Black's Scout is hit for 13 (48/100HP)
Turn 22, 3340 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 22, 3340 BC: VQ Black's Scout is hit for 13 (35/100HP)
Turn 22, 3340 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 22, 3340 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 22, 3340 BC: VQ Black's Scout has defeated Barbarian's Wolf!
Turn 26, 3220 BC: Buddhism has been founded in a distant land!
Turn 30, 3100 BC: Barbarian's Lion (2.00) vs VQ Black's Scout (2.70)
Turn 30, 3100 BC: Combat Odds: 21.1%
Turn 30, 3100 BC: (Animal Combat: +20%)
Turn 30, 3100 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 30, 3100 BC: (Class Animal Combat: +100%)
Turn 30, 3100 BC: VQ Black's Scout is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 30, 3100 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 30, 3100 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 30, 3100 BC: VQ Black's Scout is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 30, 3100 BC: VQ Black's Scout is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 30, 3100 BC: VQ Black's Scout is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 30, 3100 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 30, 3100 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 30, 3100 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 30, 3100 BC: VQ Black's Scout has defeated Barbarian's Lion!
Turn 31, 3070 BC: You have discovered Hunting!
Turn 33, 3010 BC: You have trained a Warrior in Kyoto. Work has now begun on a Work Boat.
Turn 37, 2890 BC: You have discovered Archery!
Edit: as you can see, Issabella isnt nearly as close as I thought. She has 1 city in the jungle up north... Her capitol is past the choke....
Plan A: We should have 20-30 turns leeway before the barbs appear. Kyoto will be producing 11-12 commerce, new city (Tokyo?) will be producing 2-3 commerce; so 7 research/turn (goes up to 9 after Kyoto gets to pop 2). 15 turns to build a worker, 8 turns to build a warrior. By the the time barbs appear we should have a second city, a gem mine and a couple of warriors and be ready to produce archers.
Plan B:hang around until Kyoto researches hunting and archery; 12 commerce=12 research. Hunting+Archery 10-12 turns. Settle and start to build archer c12 turns. Second city, warrior,archer, probably 1/2 archer.
You forget to adjust for Epic, I think the worker took 23 turns... 15*1.5
Oh, I forget... We have a warrior on patrol in Osaka, 1 up north on the west side, the scout is up north on the east. The warrior is still building cause I had to start him before Archery came in... He will make a nice fog buster sometime...
I would start building some Archers ASAP, skip the Barracks... We dont have that many hammers (yet) and the Barbs will start comming soon... We have a lot of Barbs spawning empty land around us
As you can tell I think in terms of normal speed though usually the ratios stay the same. Another workboat for Kyoto should boost it up to at least 4 pop, so we could whip half ofthose towards stonehenge.
Just notices our workboats/galleys will be able to explore from Kyoto as our cultural borders have expanded to other coastal waters... Should be interesting to see if the land based guys need to just hang on while the slave driven armada wipes the world out!
So next tech: BW or AH? Pigs are in our second cities small cross, but I think with Barbs on the horizon, we might want to have the option of axes. OF course that assumes we have copper in our cross. The other thing that BW gives us is the ability to whip and that may be more useful to us then the axemen...
Obviously I'll be spewing out archers for Osaka. I'll probably pull the northern warrior back to bust up some fog near Osaka (and he can fall back to defend the city if needed). The scout I'll keep out wandering as long as possible, maybe finding some more civs.
I like the second city as it's appears it will be a good commerce/science city. Once we start working the gems/gold and farms to work them we should have good science as long as the maintenance doesn't get us.
I like the idea of getting stonehenge (whipping it) since it will help in getting a GP soon for theology. The CS slingshot with the oracle might be tricky on Monarch with no marble. I find it important to get at least one religion for happiness/border popping. Isabella will likely get buddhism/hinduism and might spread to us as she usually gets the shrine quick too. Depending on who else we are with we might think about switching to whatever she has to avoid any early wars or on the other hand, if we have copper in the Fat cross then go after her with axes. We should use our traits and the aggressive is great for building up an army.
Aa far as the raging barbs all we need is probably about 4 archers one for each mine and two in the city. Forget the barracks who needs it when you got barbs for promotions. We shouldn't hold off to long on BW as eventually barb axes will start showing up. Archers with melee on FH can beat them but if we have a resource on non defensive terrain protecting against an axe is problematic. We won't be able to work at the gems/gold until we have enough pop which I think is limited to 4 and the capitol is 5. Of course we can add two pop for the gold/gems so working each one would be good. Also great food sources there, and getting pop up fast to work gold gems is a good approach. Once those are hooked up we can go to 6 in Osaka and 7 in Kyoto.
Now I realize our second city will have no culture period. So putting an obelisk is a good approach as we need to pop the borders. I have found with a city like Osaka with gold/gems/food (great site by the way NamliaM and I'm glad you did the walkabout) you can jump ahead of the AI science wise. (even on Monarch) Of course this doesn't include a second city elsewhere. So getting to courthouses/markets is going to important as well as writing for those great culture producers "libraries".
Mysticism is great for stonehenge and obelisks. After that I would recommend archery mainly it doesn't take long and trying to defend a mine hill with 25% defensive terrain bonus with warriors is a crapshoot. Personally I don't do a lot of fogbusting and usually get about 5 archers and play "let's promote the soldiers" for early Heroic Epic wooohooo. Why keep them away they are great.
Osaka should have adequate production with sheep/gems/gold enough to pump out some archers fast. What I like about raging barbs is you get yourself CD3 archers combat 2 or 3 archers and melee/drill whatever you like. The raging barbs with gold/gems will be well "relentless". I have played monarch games with no raging barbs and had gold I thought I goofed in turning on raging barbs. They wouldn't leave my gold alone.
So maybe it's me but they come on stronger when you have money resources. So archery is a definite must and going for BW right away is just too big a risk imho. AH after that would be good to see if we have horses which can be a big help fogbusting but they suck otherwise.
So are you playing now Bobrath?
EDIT: I see in the spoiler that NamliaM has finished archery so I agree Bobrath AH would be the way go to for the sheep.
bobrath -- Black Leader -- UP --> Our fearless leader he's scared of bears (me too)
namliaM -- just started --> Found the great commerce site
eektor --> on deck --> Sooner or later you get to fight the barbies
Cosmichail --> --> Let's play kill the barbies
Pigswill --> --> Will he have set up the third city or start war??
LuvtoBuild --> --> A complete warmonger at heart so must love the barbs
__________________
Just notices our workboats/galleys will be able to explore from Kyoto as our cultural borders have expanded to other coastal waters... Should be interesting to see if the land based guys need to just hang on while the slave driven armada wipes the world out!
Those three northern tiles are ocean. Can a workboat travel through an ocean square to another coastal square? I think maybe a galley can but I'm not sure about a workboat.
I vote BW. I still think we need to find the copper if any is around. Plus the slavery would be useful as you suggested. AH will only allow us to grow more quickly but we don't really want to grow too quickly with the happiness cap and all. The extra food would allow slavery to be useful in Osaka but for now I think we can wait on AH.
Should we try to get CoL with a GP from SH? I think if we skip Masonry for a bit we can, right? Theology is good too for theocracy I guess. We could shoot for CmbtIII Samurai that way. All this slingshoting gets me
@ pigswill On a sidenote, I had to reinstall Civ in order to get the save to load. So apparently my Civ install had an edited file somewhere from screwing around with modding a while back. Thats why the original lock modified assets for The Pacifists was screwed for you. Live and learn. Don't screw with the original files, even if you think you know what you're doing Anyway, everything seems cool now.
ADDED THOUGHT: I'm also thinking that the barbs will be coming from the south primarily, especially after Isabella starts settling the north and sending out her own fogbusters to roam the countryside. So I would see about finding some decent sites down that way to camp out. I wouldn't suggest leaving our north exposed of course but I suspect the south will see the most action.
As you can tell I think in terms of normal speed though usually the ratios stay the same. Another workboat for Kyoto should boost it up to at least 4 pop, so we could whip half ofthose towards stonehenge.
Kyoto is allready at size 4 and capabel of sustaining 5 happy people... A total of 7 pop is possible....
bobrath said:
Just notices our workboats/galleys will be able to explore from Kyoto as our cultural borders have expanded to other coastal waters... Should be interesting to see if the land based guys need to just hang on while the slave driven armada wipes the world out!
I would use the next workboat to scout a bit... Atleast see past those 2 little islands... I think we want sailing ASAP so we can pull some settlers out off Kyoto and colonise those nice little islands....
So next tech: BW or AH? Pigs are in our second cities small cross, but I think with Barbs on the horizon, we might want to have the option of axes. OF course that assumes we have copper in our cross. The other thing that BW gives us is the ability to whip and that may be more useful to us then the axemen...
We can use but our worker will have nothing to do... But what good is a worker if all our improvements get pillaged?
Uhm.... BW => AH => Agriculture => Sailing?
bobrath said:
Obviously I'll be spewing out archers for Osaka. I'll probably pull the northern warrior back to bust up some fog near Osaka (and he can fall back to defend the city if needed). The scout I'll keep out wandering as long as possible, maybe finding some more civs.
You still have some scouting left to do in the south east, tho I doubt there will be much (usefull) land there. Dotmap is a bit early I think, lets get a handle on the barbs first...
Cosmichail said:
Once those are hooked up we can go to 6 in Osaka and 7 in Kyoto.
Unfortunatly the capitol and Osaka are not linked, which means that Kyoto will stay at happy 5 (7 is the food limit tho, at the moment 8 with another workboat)
Cosmichail said:
EDIT: I see in the spoiler that NamliaM has finished archery so I agree Bobrath AH would be the way go to for the sheep.
Those three northern tiles are ocean. Can a workboat travel through an ocean square to another coastal square? I think maybe a galley can but I'm not sure about a workboat.
I also agree with LTB about the south vs North thing, would like to add thought on the East tho... Dont forget about that... And dont unfog the place to good... we want some barbs to promote our sorry archers
Edit:
Just thought of something in the shower Maybe we dont want to finish that second workboat just yet... I am just thinking, leave 2 or so hammers for the workboat to finish.... Start putting hammers into 'Hedge... Bronze comes in, whip with workboat (adding 30 hammers) Overflowing as much as possible into 'Hedge... I think building a third workboat would be overdoing it. With 2 netted fish we have 12 food and +1 health, with 1 netted fish and 1 crabs you have 11 food and +2 health.
This evensout to 13 food, thats working only the 2 nets... we can grow to size 6.... 3 people to whip = 3*30 = 90
Add to that some 20 of the workboat whip = 110, we need 180 for the 'Hedge...
Or: we get 20 from the boat, 4 hammers per turn (CC + 2 citizens)
We can whip 90 hammers, so we need 70 hammers from normal production = 70/4 = 17 turns
Seems crazy, but I think doable....
Random thoughts.
Once we've got four cities we can build palace and move capital to main island so leave Kyoto in isolated splendour as our GP Factory.
Too early to dotmap until we've finished exploring island and discovered BW to locate copper (hopefully).
Expand south; leave Izzy to settle north.
Hopefully Izzie will get a religion wot we can pinch from her later.
We can get to AH direct from hunting, don't need intermediate techs.
Would be good to explore from Kyoto after SH; raging barbs may mean barb galleys making workboats a suicide mission.
Well, I have been having problems with my internet recently. So here are my comments:
I vote to go for BW as well. Afterwards I think we should go AH, then Writing.
Its great to see Izzy as the person next to us. Unless Gyanthaar put random personalities, Izzy would go after all the religious techs until she has a religion and tries to get the religious wonder right away. All we have to do is wait a while and take it. Is Izzy's capital in the southeast or up north?
I agree on using a workboat to explore the islands close to Kyoto. I guess Gyanthaar decided to be nice to us just in case we had problems in the main island.
I will be playing in about 8 hours. Lots of good thoughts so far.
(and yes them are some fuzzy pigs we've got there!)
MY plan at this time is to go for BW in the research, more for slavery then for copper discovery. I'll try to manage the workboat so that we come just short of building it and leaving the overflow to go into a pile of rocks. Second workboat will go to crabs for the extra health, third workboat will actully go scouting (if I manage to build it).
While Izzy may very well found a religion, lets not forget the AIs are set to be more aggressive and thus we'll have to be on our toes to keep the nasty nashing teeth of the computer away from our cities.
I don't know that I'll explore the SE that much, depends on how quickly I can get the northern warrior back to homeland D.
I would use the next workboat to scout a bit... Atleast see past those 2 little islands... I think we want sailing ASAP so we can pull some settlers out off Kyoto and colonise those nice little islands....
Not a bad idea. Kyoto would be a pretty good settler factory. I might add that it would also be best to produce workers for those colonies from there instead of producing a worker in the colony itself. We do have to be careful about maintenance though.
namliaM said:
Any ship can travel anywhere within your cultural boundries....
Well, now don't I feel stupid. I guess I should have known that since fish, whales, and oil are often in ocean tiles rather than coast. So, if Kyoto doesn't have something useful to build, then I would agree that we should pump out a workboat or two for scouting if we don't have galleys available. They will probably run into barb galleys but at least we might have gained some crucial intel in the process and if we have nothing better to do production wise, why not? Since we are looking to grab SH, we might not have a time to do that though before we get sailing.
pigswill said:
Once we've got four cities we can build palace and move capital to main island so leave Kyoto in isolated splendour as our GP Factory.
I was thinking that too but now I'm not sure since we've discovered some land north of Kyoto. We may want to just build the FP or Versailles in Osaka, depending on how many, if any, colonies we start north of Kyoto. I suppose we could jump the Palace to Osaka and then build FP in a northern colony later after the prerequisite courthouses are completed.
eektor said:
Unless Gyanthaar put random personalities, Izzy would go after all the religious techs until she has a religion and tries to get the religious wonder right away.
I would assume they would have told us if Random Personalities were checked. Even if they didn't, we should be able to tell by looking at the settings screen. I'm guessing Izzy will be her usual self and if we get her state religion first, then we can convert and suck up until we are prepared to take her down. She tends to be a bit aggressive anyway so if we end up in a different religion, we'll definitely have to watch out for her.
I think I'll get started on our first spoiler soon so that when it comes time to post it, I won't be so rushed trying to come up with something. Anybody have any suggestions as to how they want to see our storyline develop? I'm thinking something along the lines of we are a band of Tokugawa's trusted guard and we have been sent to avenge the murders. If any of you have a particular Japanese name you might want to go by, I will use that, otherwise I will try to come up with something that seems to fit your playstyle. I can post parts of it here as we go along if you guys want to review it or I can wait and post it all here at once for review before posting in the spoiler thread. I don't want to spam the thread with too much stuff that doesn't directly affect the gameplay.
This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
which is really a bonus adding to the allready great spot...
city... working the second Gems will put us in the Black for founding this city...The earlier we achieve this, the earlier we have Archers.
from working a gem mine on the river tile isn't going to cover the -7
(or worse since we're further inland) maintenance. We would have to run 0%
for that to compute. At -7
but Issabella grabbed it, this will be known as the GH incident 
The other thing that BW gives us is the ability to whip and that may be more useful to us then the axemen...
Them's some funny looking pigs with all of that wool 
(Feel free to slap me any time now)
even if you think you know what you're doing 
Anyway, everything seems cool now.
but our worker will have nothing to do... But what good is a worker if all our improvements get pillaged? 
If not for Axe', for 
I guess I should have known that since fish, whales, and oil are often in ocean tiles rather than coast. So, if Kyoto doesn't have something useful to build, then I would agree that we should pump out a workboat or two for scouting if we don't have galleys available. They will probably run into barb galleys but at least we might have gained some crucial intel in the process and if we have nothing better to do production wise, why not? Since we are looking to grab SH, we might not have a time to do that though before we get sailing.
