SGOTM 02 - VQ Black

namliaM · Aug 9, 2006

bobrath said:
I will be playing in about 8 hours. Lots of good thoughts so far.

(and yes them are some fuzzy pigs we've got there!)

MY plan at this time is to go for BW in the research, more for slavery then for copper discovery. I'll try to manage the workboat so that we come just short of building it and leaving the overflow to go into a pile of rocks. Second workboat will go to crabs for the extra health, third workboat will actully go scouting (if I manage to build it).

While Izzy may very well found a religion, lets not forget the AIs are set to be more aggressive and thus we'll have to be on our toes to keep the nasty nashing teeth of the computer away from our cities.

I don't know that I'll explore the SE that much, depends on how quickly I can get the northern warrior back to homeland D.

I am not completely sure ... but... I think a workboat on Epic is 45 hammers, if that is so, then we only need to have less than 15 hammers. This will take 2 pop, but still create the 30 hammer overflow.... and with the mongo food out there the 2 pop will grow back like there is no tomorrow....

Also I changed my mind on the workboat scouting thing... That second workboat is needed badly in for growing Kyoto to Whippable size (+3 food makes a big difference)... Make nets ASAP and dont scout ....

bobrath · Aug 9, 2006

Is there a cap on overflow hammers?

and are you suggesting that I get the second workboat out (and on crabs) and then put work into the third for overflow whipping? Or build the second up til near completion (or when BW comes in) and switch to henge?

namliaM · Aug 9, 2006

Well the way I see it:
1) Get the second workboat to either 13 or 14 (just over 30 to complete) or 43/44 just under completion
2) Whip the thing
3) Finish it and start work on the Hedge for 1 turn sending 29 + 2 hammers into the Hedge
4) Try and plan for the nets to be in place for the 2nd pop to work it... Not sure how that works out, but I think that is immediatly
5) after a turn maybe two on the hedge, start a 3rd workboat
6) Put some turns into that max to 14 or earlier and whip for 2 pop, preverably on > size 4. This is 2 pop, leaving 2 to allready work the still available nets.
7) You could scout with the third boat a bit, till you need the nets for the third pop to work.... the + food for faster growing. Now continue work on the hedge, grow like crazy and whip on size 6.. Back down to 3 to finish the Hedge...

It will cause -2 or even -3 happyness for a few turns, but the hedge is worth that I think...

bobrath · Aug 9, 2006

So if I'm reading this right, actual hammer work done on stonehenge will be almost none, with all but say 4-6 hammers coming from whipping. This will be a fun cross turn project for us.

Course I don't want to be the person that misclicks on the queue and throws away our stonehenge hammers!

namliaM · Aug 9, 2006

I am just hoping it will work... Actually I think a whip at epic is also 45 hammers not 30... So you should be able to:
Grow to 3, Work a boat for 1 turn, Whip it, down to 2
Grow to 3, Get the nets in place
Grow to 4, Rince and repeat till we have 4 nets in place and a scout enroute?

I just hope we end up claiming the Hedge.... would be something to end up 1 turn short?!!! :sad:

bobrath · Aug 9, 2006

At the very least we'd be able run at a higher research rate with the gold we'd get from a miss!

namliaM · Aug 9, 2006

I tried some test games... I was sleepless anyway...
It seems getting a max of 3 nets, while having the max pop (i.e. not using citizens, but rather growing a bit to max before using them => Set them back to work to grow to 5)
I would switch to Hedge ASAP, not risk the boat to be finished... We want to whip it to end....

Also keep the gold reserve as low as possible... And try and keep the Gem mines worked to max science...

To whip the Hedge at the finish we want 6 pop so once we have 3 nets in place... Grow like crazy... we need 6 pop of which atleast 2 will be mad eating 4 food... Growing 5=>6 will not go fast...

pigswill · Aug 9, 2006

Henge is 180 hammers on epic. Each whip is 45 hammers/pop so need equivalent of 4 pop whipped. Practical limit is likely to be unhappiness.

bobrath · Aug 9, 2006

Well, its certainly Raging Barbs! We've lost one gems mine, but that's ok short term since I had to whip out an archer (and overflow gave us the second archer the next turn).

At the start of my turns, Izzy founded and converted to Hinduism. So lets pray for some religious fervor boys.

Mysticism came in on my 3rd turn (2680BC) and we started on Bronze Working (15 turns @ 60%). Stonegehenge will take 180 hammers. I had 3 turns left on the current workboat, so I let it finish off - we need the growth and the slavery is still a ways off.

In 2590BC, our workboat finishes and I put him on crabs right away. Our next workboat is due in 12 turns and slavery is due in 10.

In 2560BC, our scout spots the first barb (and we run towards Izzy).

Our northern warrior is just back to Osaka city limits (there are some token mining turns on the hill southwest of Osaka).

Little info during the Barb Wars:

It got dicey and I ended up firing our CoPs to get BW in as fast as possible. I danced the worker (and had him build roads as pillage bait) to try and manage the barb flow. We're taking about 1 warrior attack per turn (ramping up now).

In 2320BC, our scout was heading back home and ended up in forest next to a barb warrior.
We had woodsman 1, but I resigned myself to the loss of our unit. Scout lives!!!! (promoted right away to woodsman 2). He should be a great fog buster for us and is ready to head out. Right now the barbs are streaming from the SW of our city, but that won't last as our scout spotted another to the east.

In 2260BC, I :whipped:

our workboat and sent it exploring. All citizens are working the water, currently it would take 7 population to whip stonehenge.

Interesting stuff discovered (ignore the barb infestation):

Yes, we do have copper to our east and if you look closely you can see its near a very nice city spot!
I left a sign on a forested hill that might make a good barb magnet for our two warriors to hang out on. We've got two archers (unpromoted) at home and the warriors are Shock and Shock + Combat 2.

We really need to think about sailing soon so we can use what looks to be some great surroundings:

The Save

Barbilicious Turn Log:

Spoiler :

namliaM · Aug 10, 2006

Well Isa is keeping true to her name, with any luck she will found Judaism as well

bobrath said:
Mysticism came in on my 3rd turn (2680BC) and we started on Bronze Working (15 turns @ 60%). Stonegehenge will take 180 hammers. I had 3 turns left on the current workboat, so I let it finish off - we need the growth and the slavery is still a ways off.

No......

Why? we were allready at size 4, with a happy cap at 5.... Why need another boat right now? We need hammers not boats...
I hope this works out tho

, but 40 some hammers we are now putting into a boat is about 1/4 of Stonehedge

and about 1/2 of the hammers we need to whip for 3 pop...

bobrath said:
It got dicey and I ended up firing our CoPs to get BW in as fast as possible. I danced the worker (and had him build roads as pillage bait) to try and manage the barb flow. We're taking about 1 warrior attack per turn (ramping up now).

Good thinking about those roads... We need to get some folks out there to keep our city from beeing on the front line....

Wow thats some barb killing

I count atleast 10 dead barb Warriors... We need to get some Shock Archers for them Axe' which will be comming, how likely will we get that Bronze? Lizzy is expanding .... and she will be intrested in that Bronze as well... Should we aim for Iron Working, to see what Iron deposits we have? I dont see us building that Bronze city anytime soon

I had a closer look at the save... and confirmed that these two blobs of land are just that, Now that I saw it in game I can see it on the screeny too... There is water on the other side too... Offcourse this could be that there is more land... but....
I think I would prefer to get Stonehedge above any intell (if at all, it is also possible that there is nothing but Ocean out there...)
1) Create Nets with the boat
2) Wait for the whip to ware off
3) Put 1 turn into a warrior (22 hammers - 2 production) and whip (45) for 23 overflow into Hedge
4) Grow to size 6 and whip the damn thing into Kyoto....

The warrior we can later use for MP on one of those Islands...
Techs: AH=>Sailing=>Writing or AH=>Writing=>Sailing?

Edit: Take a look at the graphs pholks... look at the score of VQ red, I hope they didnt lose their second city to barbs :cry:

Edit2: Some teams havent even started yet?

Edit3: Save our warroirs

Promote our Archers

and DONT LET ANY OF THEM DIE ! ! ! We need each and every abled body to defend our property

Edit4: We need that Gem mine back ASAP, another whip possibly for 2 archers?

pigswill · Aug 10, 2006

I reckon we need copper city asap;maybe go for the build/whip-archer-put- overflow-into- settler trick in Osaka.
If we can pull off Stonehenge in Kyoto it may be worth trying the same trick with Oracle (would need writing and priesthood of course).
Longer term we should be looking at Samurai asap; Oracle CoL slingshot and burn Prophet on CS would be half way there. CoL is again useful for half price and easily whipped courthouses.
I'm not convinced by researching ironworking early; unless we have iron in Fat Cross it doesn't achieve anything to counter them nasty barbies.

bobrath · Aug 10, 2006

namliaM said:
No...... Why? we were allready at size 4, with a happy cap at 5.... Why need another boat right now? We need hammers not boats...
I hope this works out tho , but 40 some hammers we are now putting into a boat is about 1/4 of Stonehedge and about 1/2 of the hammers we need to whip for 3 pop...

My thinking was that we needed the second developed resource sooner rather then later to get the growth as high and as fast as possible. I will admit I agonized over this decision for the 3 turns.

Note due to the growth, we can put down 4 CoPs and reach stagnancy as opposed to the 2 CoPs at stagnant now. I know its only 2 hammers difference - silver lining and all dont ya know.

Founding a third city without making some good progress on fogbusting and barb intercepting is going to be very tough. There was unlucky on only one roll (losing at 11.2%!!!), but it put our land empire in jeopardy. I do wish we could get that copper city up and running, but its gonna be rough. I would make sure to use the scout as the ultra fog buster. Woodsman 2 is nice, but I don't think the odds favor him against a barb warrior even so.

LuvToBuild · Aug 10, 2006

namliaM said:
I think I would prefer to get Stonehenge above any intell (if at all, it is also possible that there is nothing but Ocean out there...)
1) Create Nets with the boat
2) Wait for the whip to ware off
3) Put 1 turn into a warrior (22 hammers - 2 production) and whip (45) for 23 overflow into Hedge
4) Grow to size 6 and whip the damn thing into Kyoto....

I like namliaM's plan. Makes sense to me after looking at the save and seeing where we are now. How long before the whipping unhappiness clears? I was thinking it told you somewhere how many more turns. Anyway, I think we should use the fishing boat on the fish for an extra :food:

vs the second clam. If we take the citizen working the second clam and set him back up as a citizen specialist, we'll get an extra :hammers:

and can prebuild the warrior faster, as well as put another :hammers:

into SH each turn. Having the citizen specialist would also slow growth a bit and give a little more time for the whipping unhappiness to clear.

I say we go: Sailing=>Meditation=>Priesthood=>Writing

We need sailing more than AH right now. AH won't do us much good until the barb situation is under control and I'm sure that's a little ways off. After Sailing, I think Meditation=>Priesthood=>Writing might be better. We will need Priesthood for the Oracle and CoL anyway and we could research Writing while working on it. AH is something we need for the sheep but until we can actually use the sheep in peace, I'm not sure it's worth the effort. Worker techs just aren't going to be very useful right now. IW might be a good option but only if it showed up in the starting square of Osaka. Even then we would have to protect the mine and its road. Keep in mind that barb galleys may start showing up soon and we will want to protect our food in Kyoto. It's crucial for whipping in SH and maybe Oracle.

BTW, if we fail to get SH or the Oracle or even both, we should save some of the cash for upgrading warriors to axemen once we secure a metal resource. If a metal is not in our immediate future, then it makes sense to just go ahead and use it for research.

bobrath · Aug 10, 2006

You can hover over the whipping button and subtract 15 (for epic) from the number of turns of unhappy the whip would bring to give you how long for the whip to expire.

I hooked the clam up for the extra healthy resource as that gives us one food extra (not lost to waste). We can indeed work the two fishes for faster growth.

AH was worked because it would reveal horses. Partial mindslip into Warlords mode since Chariots have a bonus against axe. They are Str 4 (one less then axe, one more then archer) and they have the chance to withdraw along with better range. Makes them nice fog busting units. That does assume Horses show up in our cross!

bobrath · Aug 10, 2006

bobrath -- Black Leader -- just played
namliaM -- started us nicely
eektor --> UP --> you get to fight the barbies
Cosmichail --> on deck --> Let's play kill the barbies
Pigswill --> --> Will he have set up the third city or start war??
LuvtoBuild --> --> A complete warmonger at heart so must love the barbs

namliaM · Aug 10, 2006

pigswill said:
I reckon we need copper city asap;maybe go for the build/whip-archer-put- overflow-into- settler trick in Osaka.
If we can pull off Stonehenge in Kyoto it may be worth trying the same trick with Oracle (would need writing and priesthood of course).
Longer term we should be looking at Samurai asap; Oracle CoL slingshot and burn Prophet on CS would be half way there. CoL is again useful for half price and easily whipped courthouses.
I'm not convinced by researching ironworking early; unless we have iron in Fat Cross it doesn't achieve anything to counter them nasty barbies.

The way I see it, we have Archers... which are not going to be good enough longer term... Unless they upgrade to Samurai which I dont think they do

Ironworking would give us the full lay of the land in resources (other than AH) and I fear if we dont make a settler #1 priority that Isa is going to take it... If she takes the bronze we had best know where the Iron is?!

bobrath said:
Note due to the growth, we can put down 4 CoPs and reach stagnancy as opposed to the 2 CoPs at stagnant now. I know its only 2 hammers difference - silver lining and all dont ya know.

4 CoPs? How do we support 6 pop? IIRC Kyoto is capped at 5? :confused:

I do agree that
1) BW was a ways away
2) Things are as they are and we WILL make the best of it...

bobrath said:
Founding a third city without making some good progress on fogbusting and barb intercepting is going to be very tough. There was unlucky on only one roll (losing at 11.2%!!!), but it put our land empire in jeopardy. I do wish we could get that copper city up and running, but its gonna be rough. I would make sure to use the scout as the ultra fog buster. Woodsman 2 is nice, but I don't think the odds favor him against a barb warrior even so.

Scout vs anything (but wolves maybe) never is a sure thing... Wishing dont make it so... Hammers do

LuvToBuild said:
I think we should use the fishing boat on the fish for an extra vs the second clam.

The Fish or the Clams for the second boat was an even trade.... Third boat should go on the Fish tho...

LuvToBuild said:
If we take the citizen working the second clam and set him back up as a citizen specialist, we'll get an extra and can prebuild the warrior faster, as well as put another into SH each turn. Having the citizen specialist would also slow growth a bit and give a little more time for the whipping unhappiness to clear.

From what I have seen in trying this in test game(s) getting the hammers (after whipping) is not going to be the (real) problem. Getting to size 6 with -1 or even -2 from the whip is....

LuvToBuild said:
I say we go: Sailing=>Meditation=>Priesthood=>Writing

We need sailing more than AH right now. AH won't do us much good until the barb situation is under control and I'm sure that's a little ways off. After Sailing, I think Meditation=>Priesthood=>Writing might be better. We will need Priesthood for the Oracle and CoL anyway and we could research Writing while working on it. AH is something we need for the sheep but until we can actually use the sheep in peace, I'm not sure it's worth the effort. Worker techs just aren't going to be very useful right now. IW might be a good option but only if it showed up in the starting square of Osaka. Even then we would have to protect the mine and its road. Keep in mind that barb galleys may start showing up soon and we will want to protect our food in Kyoto. It's crucial for whipping in SH and maybe Oracle.

I dont know about the Oracle... Its a happy hunt for AIs to get I think we leave that to late allready

AH IMHO is a good tech to go for... we can pasture the Furry Pigs which IIRC give + :food:

for more

and more

both for building us some more archers for :hammer:

barbs

eektor · Aug 10, 2006

I won't be able to play til Saturday night so I'll need a skip or a swap.

bobrath · Aug 10, 2006

OK..

bobrath -- Black Leader -- just played
namliaM -- started us nicely
Cosmichail --> UP --> Let's play kill the barbies
Pigswill --> On Deck --> Will he have set up the third city or start war??
LuvtoBuild --> --> A complete warmonger at heart so must love the barbs
eektor --> --> you get to fight the barbies

bobrath · Aug 10, 2006

Our capital will pop its borders again in 15/16 turns, so that will more fully explore our surroundings.

I think that copper is a decent walk for Izzy to attempt. We (imo) have a small grace period in getting there. Upside to founding east of the stone is that we get a quickly defendable site. Or we found SE of the stone and get bronze right away. Together with Osaka, we'd pretty much eliminate the chance of barbs spawning to our north - good for us, but bad for us since that would take some pressure off Izzy.

I'd agree that Sailing should be our next tech, but stopping research on AH is a double edged sword. If we can be sure that we've got 20ish turns until Barb Galleys, then I'd say finish off AH, otherwise we need to protect those nets as they're the only thing that makes our capital productive.

Cosmichail · Aug 10, 2006

Ok this is "I Got it". Looked at the save and yep lots of barbies but for now mostly warriors. Why are we worried about galley barbs for Kyoto unless they are coming from those islands otherwise how will they get there. Is the WB there to explore. Shouldn't he now add to the food bank as such. We would then grow real quick to 6 as outlined by NamliaM. Yes it would cause unhappiness but then the whip for SH. The faster growth the better under these circumstances. Although having the WB fogbust those islands might keep barbs away.

Also about those islands. The stone is nice but won't we have to settle on it to get use of it. We could settle eventually on the stone but of course much later.

As to the mainland I feel after the archer we should attempt to get a settler out. Maybe one with two archers go the long way around avoiding barbs and settle. If we want axes quick we can settle on top of the copper but will look for the most optimal spot.

As to research I am inclined to get to IW just in case. We should finish AH for now (or maybe switch will look at the beaker loss) to sailing followed by IW.

If we can get a couple archers with melee/combat we might be able to hold off axes on hills which has worked for me in other games. I think keeping them at a distance expanding our perimeter will give us room to grow. Bob mentions Southwest direction spawning so I will focus on moving the perimeter out to there and trying to avoid extra cost.

EDIT: I have to read back again but at what point will SH be whippable. How many hammers do we need to invest. I like Luvtobuild's idea on putting up a citizen for the hammer. So the third boat won't help as such as growth won't do any good until 3-4 citizens can whip SH. What we need is the hammers to get moving and I don't think you can part whip something???

SGOTM 02 - VQ Black

Deity

Emperor

Deity

Emperor

Deity

Emperor

Deity

fly (one day)

Emperor

Deity

fly (one day)

Emperor

Prince

Emperor

Emperor

Deity

Prince

Emperor

Emperor

Dark Lord of The Sith

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