SGOTM 02 - VQ Black

Getting Stonehenge is a big help towards GP and a religion/ or COL --> CS slingshot. Personally I like Oracle but would rather see us get the TGL for science. We then could pop GS's for Philosophy/paper/education. That's the only wonder I would want and feel we should invest the remaining hammers in infrastructure and axes for Izzy. Getting to here early is good if we intend on attacking since once that cultural defense builds up, it makes that much harder to take her cities.

Right this moment I think though that our prime concern is getting the copper hooked up and dealing with the Barbarians. It won't be long before axes start to show however a CD2-3 archer will hold out fine but we should keep at least 2 in Osaka for defense.

I am with NamliaM on the getting HR soon for happiness. Getting writing though will boost our culture once lib is built and if we don't do the religion thing will need it. With the two gems and once borders pop gold too Osaka should be a good science city. We might need a farm or two to get a scientist there for an additional boost. I just realized that since we have SH we will have some culture now in Osaka so what in 15 turns the borders will pop.

We might get a religion spread from Izzy anyways and having the same as hers always makes things easier. As to specialist for now I think Kyoto should have priests and Osaka scientist. The GP can do a number of things for us right now. (if all religious tech meditation/polytheism are out of the way) and no masonry he will give CS. (but will need COL though)

Or if we do research Masonry and mono/med/poly/priesthood are out the way he will give us theology which is a big boost for our military. Some don't feel that extra 2 points matters much but I found it make a big difference once you take out the prime defender. (usually there is one or two good defenders which need to be taken out once they are gone good promoted axes will take the rest out no problem)

It is likely that the GP will pop soon enough to make it possible to get Christianity. Just have a state religion add +1 happiness and +1 happiness for each temple. With HR we could grow big +1 for each military unit garrisoned. Our cap is 5 in Osaka (gems) and once we can work gold will go up to 6 with HR +2 increases cap to 8. If we do found a religion we can get that up to 10. With some fast growth we would have ourselves a great city in Osaka and the "copper city" would have room to grow as well.

COL is good to have for the maintenance so maybe we should think about that too.

Looking forward to your report Pigswill
 
CoL would be very nice to lower the expense of the Osaka, but ....

IMHO we need sailing and Writing (in that order) ASAP ... Great light house is never a priority with the AI, but we need masonry (too). It is cheap(-ish) and if we have nothing else to build? (Colossus springs tomind ;) )
Getting a Forge in place in Kyoto is going to be huge to use the "whipping bug" (if its a bug at all...)

CD Archers? Uhm why? CD needs them axe to attack our city, leaving them the possibility to Pillage :(
Get some Shock - Combat 1 Archer on a Forrested hill... 75% for the Hill + 25% for Shock + 10% Combat = +110 = 6.3 strength with the Axe getting no bonus.... Add to that maybe 25% fortification and the archer is just over 7 strength vs the Axe' 5....

If we want the copper site we have to get some (fog busting) Archers out. 2 or 3 Towards the south and 2 due East to clear the way.... AND I think we dont want to be wasting time, cause Issa sure isnt wasting any... Denying Issa the copper will be important. If she is left without Metals..... :drool:
 
We got sailing in my turnset and I think Pigswill started writing but started polytheism for Oracle before writing. It sounds like he didn't finish polytheism and changed to writing but it's not really clear. Those wonders are great for commerce and colossus doesn't need much production so if we can do it then fine.

Just remember though once you research masonry the CS slingshot is out. He will then give mono if it's there following by theology then DR. And we will get a priest in Kyoto for sure even if we add scientist which we can't until we build a library.

CD archers meant for city and during my turnset we have a combat one who should get a shock promotion next. (You just got to hope the ax goes for the archer on the hill though and I have found from time to time the axe will walk right by to the nearest improvement especially if it's gold or gems.) That's where it gets tricky defending important resources and axes are more suitable than Combat 1 or 2 with shock fortified archers. Of course trying to keep the axe at a distance is good as long as he attacks.

Absolutely our foremost priorty is getting a settler to the copper site. Of course it doesn't mean Izzy won't have access to Iron. They do move quick on monarch and it's good she is the only one there so no advancing thru trading, which means hopefully she will stay behind somewhat.
 
Well at long last I've finished my turnset and its time to present my report. Was it worth the wait? Probably not. Have we lost? Not yet.

1600bc. Changed Kyoto from citizens to working water tiles to boost commerce and increase pop to rush stonehenge (at the cost of some production, I'm not a good enough mathematician to work out the cost/benefit ratio but it seemed like a good idea). Osaka bulding archer.
Finish Sailing; start Polytheism.

1570bc Archer vs archer (ava); we win.

1540bc zzz

1510bc zzz

1480bc Whip Kyoto. Hold breath.

1450bc. Stonehenge. Start workboat. Take a break, post news, consider writing, decide what the heck,let's go for Oracle, continue with poly.

1420bc Ava,we win.

1390bc Ava, we win;CG3 in Osaka.

1360bc Ava, we win. Build archer, start archer.

1330bc. Hindiusm arrives in Osaka. Don't convert. Worth discussing between turnsets.

1300bc Avw (archer vs warrior); we win (just!)

1270bc Rush archer, put overflow to settler. Use archer to escort worker while road-building towards copper.

1240bc. Avw-lose!! (I sure am unlucky against warriors). Finish poly, start priesthood. Build workboat. start galley. Rearrange tiles in Kyoto to stop growth (pop 5). Osaka goes back to archer.

1210bc zzz

1180bc ava, win. Border pop Osaka. Got rice but not agric, decide to continue with priesthood.

1150bc ava,win.

1120bc zzz

1090 avw, win

1060 zzz

1030 avw, win (luck has changed)

1000bc.Complete priesthood, start agric (no beakers yet). Poprush galley (2pop), overflow towards oracle.
Osaka is one turn from archer and pop 4, maybe time to do settler.

Izzy has founded three cities but not on copper (yet).

Minor cock-up on save. Originally uploaded 1600bc save, noticed mistake, uploaded 1000bc save. PMed AlanH.
Save available on results page. Don't know how to transfer it to my post.
 
pigswill said:
1240bc. Avw-lose!! (I sure am unlucky against warriors). Finish poly, start priesthood. Build workboat. start galley. Rearrange tiles in Kyoto to stop growth (pop 5). Osaka goes back to archer.
avw?? Whats the % change to lose?? Ack !

If we want to stop growing in Kyoto we can start investing some in a settler?
pigswill said:
1000bc.Complete priesthood, start agric (no beakers yet). Poprush galley (2pop), overflow towards oracle.
Osaka is one turn from archer and pop 4, maybe time to do settler.

Izzy has founded three cities but not on copper (yet).

Minor cock-up on save. Originally uploaded 1600bc save, noticed mistake, uploaded 1000bc save. PMed AlanH.
Save available on results page. Don't know how to transfer it to my post.
Agriculture is good to Farm the Rice :) We need to rush now I think to the Copper do or die time I think...

Edit: To transfer the save, right click the link provided => Copy Shortcut
Go back to your post and click the Globe in above... Click OK and you can type the text you want to have to show the save... The Save :)
 
I had a look around the save and found some intresting stuff... :D

1) I dont know if you can see it good... But I found culture due Southeast of Kyoto...

A bit more zoomed out for orientation...


2) I hate spain :(

I added 2 suggestions for the new city, both grab Horses... I suggest we pick up Pottery (granary) and Writing ASAP

Agri (only improves 1!! Tile? is it worth that?) => Pottery (makes writing a little cheaper too) => Writing => CoL => Iron Working?/CS if we have a GP by then?
Oh and we need to take out Meditation for the GP to go for CS...

Why dont we have a mine on the gems? Since the Copper is allready taken... Get the Gems mined ASAP (we are losing 5 or 6 beakers a turn :( ) and get that gold online, so we can grow an extra pop...
I dont know about Hinduism... we want a Temple (at some point) tho... so we can grow an extra pop...
 
I've got it and I'm looking around. The last roster had me down as going next and since I don't yet see anything from eektor yet, I will go ahead and play. It looks like namliaM is right about the hidden civ southeast of Kyoto. I can just barely make out what appears to be the outer edge of cultural borders in those two tiles. I can't really make out a color but it looks dark at the moment. JC maybe? I'm sure we'll find out soon enough when their borders or Kyoto's borders expand again.

It looks like Isabella will get the stone and copper. I really don't see much point in continuing a road over there except for trade route purposes. I say let Izzy finish it and have our worker concentrate on mining. I will pull him back to build a gold mine and then a gem mine. The gold mine seems more important than a gem mine since it will give us some additional hammers as well as the gold. Since no beakers have gone into Agriculture yet, I think Writing is more important for the Library and as a prereq for CoL. IW would be nice soon as well but I think we can hold off on it for the moment. If we get horses, we can have chariots against barb axemen (too bad this isn't Warlords). They won't be as nice as axemen but at strength 4 and withdrawal chance, they might keep us alive until IW comes along. It would be nice to know where the iron is though. I REALLY hope its in Osaka's BFC. Some swords would be nice for punishing Izzy sometime in the near future. SO my plan at the moment is this:

Writing=>Meditation to setup for CoL either by Oracle or Great Prophet
Attempt to get Oracle whipped with overflow from galley currently in queue and by either prebuilding a warrior and archer, or by building a lighthouse/library and then whipping it towards the very end (if oppression unhappiness is still hanging around and needs more time to clear). I might even do both. Anyway, I guess I'll go see what kind of damage I can do.
 
There's another source of copper down south in barb country;maybe stack settler with a couple of archers and go for it.
We can research writing without pottery.
If we get oracle and CoL then its well worth backtracking for meditation.
 
LuvToBuild said:
Writing=>Meditation to setup for CoL either by Oracle or Great Prophet
Attempt to get Oracle whipped with overflow from galley currently in queue and by either prebuilding a warrior and archer, or by building a lighthouse/library and then whipping it towards the very end (if oppression unhappiness is still hanging around and needs more time to clear). I might even do both. Anyway, I guess I'll go see what kind of damage I can do.
I think we can forget about the Oracle... personally... but if we feel we have ANY shot... Go ahead... IF we skip the Lib in Kyoto we MAY have a chance...

You can also whip a Warrior and a Settler for overflow ;)

Either way, Oracle or NO... I would like to preserve the GP for CS....

If we do build us some libs... Try and time them a little, turn science to 0 a few turns (5 or 6?) before hand so we can run some 100% science turns when the libs are online....

pigswill said:
There's another source of copper down south in barb country;maybe stack settler with a couple of archers and go for it.
We can research writing without pottery.
If we get oracle and CoL then its well worth backtracking for meditation.
Maybe ... if we can get CoL... Maybe Metal casting would be better?
1) Forges to fuel our building... and whipping potential
2) Colossus, if we get 3 cities out there... Thats like a 50% commerce bonus on those 3 cities.... Nice....

EDIT: CoL = 350 (normal speed) MC = 450 beakers....
 
Pre-Turn
I put the Oracle in the queue for Kyoto so that it catches the overflow from the galley. I set our research path to Writing=>Meditation for the Library and to get our prereqs out of the way.

Turn 1
The galley completes in Kyoto and the overflow goes into The Oracle. I send the galley north to check out the west side of the stone island. I pull our archer and worker back to Osaka. The archer in Osaka completes. I send him southeast to the plains forest so that he can counter a barb warrior headed our way. The barb archer that was on the forest plains hill south of the defend here sign moves north. Another barb archer appears from the west. Osaka's pop grows to 4. The governor placed the new citizen on the oasis and that seemed to be a good spot for now so I left it alone.

Turn 2
Well so much for that plan. One of those punka** AI's pulls off a CoL slingshot. The Oracle is BIADL and Confucianism is FIADL. At least we'll get a little :gold: for keeping research high. Our archer at the Alamo (defend here sign) fends off the barb archer. Our new archer annihilates the barb warrior without a scratch. The western barb archer continues his approach. Our archer and worker arrive back in Osaka. The worker has one move left so I send him to the southern gems. I fortify the archer in the woods southeast of Osaka to help protect the gems.

Turn 3
You'll NEVER guess who got The Oracle and Confucianism. :rolleyes: Yes, Izzy of course. She adopts Caste System. We get 43:gold: for The Oracle production, giving us a total of 54. I decided to use it for getting to Writing faster. We were breaking even at 60%:science: so I crank up the slider to 100% and try to knock 3 turns off of Writing. Kyoto grew to size 4 a turn or so ago and I must have missed it. It will grow to size 5 and exceed the current happiness cap of 5 within 3 turns. I set a settler to produce there to keep us below the cap. I figure I can switch to a Library when the whipping unhappiness clears. The barb archer from the west continues to approach and threaten our pasture and northern gem mine. I move the archer that was protecting the worker earlier to the plains hill and deny the enemy the high ground. I had intended to build a road on the gems but now I move the worker to the gold. I pull the archer in the forested plains SE back to Osaka in an effort to protect the pasture and northern gems. Too dang many targets for him to go for and not enough manpower to protect everything. Attacking would be suicide so we have to hope he will attack us in defensible terrain. Our galley from Kyoto confirms the cows are on a two tile island. The stone is on a one tile island.

Turn 4
Pyramids is BIADL so scratch that one off the list. No reason to go for masonry now unless we just REALLY want to go for The Great Lighthouse. I don't see much point myself and we'll probably get beaten to it too. Colossus MIGHT be doable in Kyoto and would help science. The barb archer attacks our archer on the plains hill. Good. Bye bye barb archer. But of course two barb warriors pop out of the fog, one south and another one from the west again. It looks like the west is going to spawn more than I expected. I move the worker back to the gems now that the barb archer is gone. I would like the gold mine more than a gem mine but a gem mine seems more secure right now.

Turn 5
Barb archers approach.

Turn 6
Izzy comes knocking and "asks" us to convert to Hinduism. I didn't plan to convert yet until more discussion. I agonized a bit over whether to get a negative or not. I was a little fearful about having her too upset right now, given her personality. She was already annoyed and we had no negatives yet! I'm not real sure about aggressive AI so I felt it was prudent to humor her for now. We could use the extra happiness and culture in Osaka anyway. I didn't like the 1 turn of anarchy but it brought us up to cautious with her right away. I hope it turns out to be a good decision. Our galley from Kyoto continues to scout the isles. Our CmbtII archer attacks the barb warrior from the south. He attempted to bypass the archer and go for our unprotected worker on the gems. Odds were over 98% so I took the chance in hopes the RNGod wouldn't frown on us. They were successful but wounded quite a bit. I agree with pigswill. Those dang barb warriors seem to have something going on.

Izzydemandsconversion.jpg

Izzyismarginallysatisfied.jpg

Turn 7
The western barb warrior attacks our healing archer on the plains hill. our archer wins and he gains a promotion. I leave it be for now. I will let the more military minded among us decide what promo to give him. I have him continue to heal. A barb archer pops out to the southeast. I move our reserve archer from Osaka back into the plains forest SE of the city. The worker finishes the gem mine.

Turn 8
The barb archer attacks our archer in the SE forest. Our archer wins and receives a promo. I leave it for now. I set him to heal. I move our CmbtII archer back to his forested hill. A barb archer appears from the south. I decided to give the CmbtII archer Medic I. I know Shock would have been nice for axemen but we're fighting archers right now and those guys are hurting. They need to get healed up quickly and fight the approaching archers.

Turn 9
Writing is complete. I start Meditation next. I switch to a Library in Kyoto. The isles north of Kyoto don't seem promising enough to me to be worth settling right now. We can soon enough after a Library completes. I setup two citizens in Kyoto to slow growth. The whipping unhappiness hasn't cleared yet. Kyoto will grow in 8 turns and the Library will be complete in 34 turns. It should be whipped in as soon as possible and a Lighthouse should probably be built next for extra :food: I think we might be able to get The Great Library if we go for Lit before the AI and can get it whipped. Otherwise, we can probably forget that one too. Back to the isles, we are still isolated across the ocean. They were just teasing us apparently. We might be able to sail to that other civ when borders pop but right now our galley is stuck with going in circles. A second barb archer pops out down south. I guess I shouldn't have built the gem mine. Dang, that reminds me. I forgot to switch to the gem mine from the oasis after it completed. Sorry about that. That knocked a turn off of Meditation.

Turn 10
Our CmbtII/Medic I archer prevails against the southern barb archer. The southeastern barb archer approaches. I decided to promote our plains hill archer to Guerilla I and move him to the gold. I will plan to get the worker there soon and get a gold mine going. We can defend that hill better than the gems plus it gives us more hammers with the same amount of commerce. I go ahead and promote our SE archer to CmbtI so it can hopefully defend the gems.

Turn 11
Our CmbtII/Medic I archer prevails against the southeastern barb archer. A barb warrior approaches from the west. This really blows. Izzy is going to kick our butts because we're fighting the freaking barbs for her. We need to get that second city to the horses before she does. Conquistadors? :scared: On the up side, if we can live long enough we might have some really juicy Spanish cities for the taking later. Come on Samurai!

Turn 12
I pulled the SE archer back to Osaka last turn and now I move him to the plains hill in the hopes the barb warrior will attack and suffer defeat. Cross your fingers. I pull the galley into harbor at Kyoto. I'm not in the mood to move him in circles. Our worker starts on the gold mine.

Turn 13
The barb warrior attacks the CmbtI archer and loses. No more pop out at the moment.

Turn 14
The settler in Osaka completes and I have him hang loose for now. We need some more archers to fogbust and clear the way. Luckily, no new barbs appear yet. I'm crossing my fingers, like that'll help. :rolleyes: I start a new archer in Osaka and send our CmbtI archer to the desert hill in hopes of busting more fog and clearing a path to the horses. I'm not entirely sure where we want to settle but I'm assuming at this point that the original copper city is out. If possible, I might swing an archer over there and see if Izzy is still there. Who knows, the barbs might have gotten her copper city, but I doubt it.

Turn 15
Moses is born somewhere. Let me guess. Could it be....ummm...hard one....Izzy? The CmbtI archer makes it to the desert hill. Still no new barbs. Umm...did we scare them away? They must be plopping down a city or two already. I'm not sure if that's good or bad.

Turn 16
So much for the finger crossing. A barb warrior pops out to the east. At least he's a bit far away. Maybe he'll go for Izzy. Yeah, right. Our desert hill archer sets to heal. He was wounded a bit and should be full strength soon.

Turn 17
So much for wishful thinking. More barbs crawl out of the woodwork. A barb archer to the south and another barb warrior to the west. Trying to surround us hey? We'll see about that! Anyway, the Kashi Vishwanath is built. I think we know who pulled that off. Hopefully, it will be a nice income for us later MUUAAHHH!! :satan: I really gotta stop hanging around Cosmic. Oh, the gold mine is complete and defended. I switch our southern gem miners to the gold mine. Looks like it's better than I thought. 7:commerce: there instead of the 6:commerce: on the gem tile. Plus we're getting two extra :hammers: for building archers. I debate about whipping Osaka for the archer. Still 3 turns away. We can grow to 6 in Osaka now though and it only has a pop of 4. I'm thinking I don't need the archer that bad yet. He should complete just about the time the eastern barb warrior nears the city and tries to take out the gem mine.

Turn 18
Isabella adopts slavery. Either she's just now getting BW or she's in the mood for some whipping. The barbs continue to approach from all sides. Gonna be a bloodbath soon. I hope the RNGod smiles upon us. Meditation is in and I debate between IW, Alphabet, or CoL. I decide CoL could come from the GP and Alphabet might not help us if we have nothing to trade to Izzy. IW was talked about and it would be nice to know if we have some or not. I notice Kyoto is size 5 and maxed at the happy cap. I think I might have missed its growth somewhere along the way while paying attention to Osaka. It's gone unhealthy now but that might be good to slow growth a bit until we get scientists setup. Although...I look at it a little more and decide to take our citizens and put them back out to sea. I can get growth in 4 turns and knock a few turns off of Iron Working. We need one more citizen to whip in the Library. Our people have forgotten the oppression so its time to remind them again. MUUWAAHHAAA!!! I REALLY gotta stop hanging out with Cosmic.

Turn 19
The barb archer attacks our southern archer. Our guys hand them a defeat but are reduced to half strength. The barb warriors near the city and camp out in the two forests just outside. Our new archer will complete next turn.

Turn 20
Oh lovely. Should have saw that coming. Each barb warrior moves to each of our gem mines. Crossing my fingers, I attack the warrior on our northern gem mine with the new archer from Osaka. One down. I use the Guerilla archer from the gold mine to take out the second warrior. Two down. Another barb archer comes from the west. Criminy. Going to need to get a second city out soon but I would like to see where you guys want to put it first. Plus, it's going to need defenders and Osaka has its hands full. I start another archer in Osaka.

Kyotonow.jpg

Osakanow.jpg

Current Save

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1000 BC to 700 BC:

Spoiler :
Turn 100, 1000 BC: You have trained a Galley in Kyoto. Work has now begun on The Oracle.
Turn 100, 1000 BC: You have trained a Archer in Osaka. Work has now begun on a Settler.

Turn 101, 985 BC: Confucianism has been founded in a distant land!
Turn 101, 985 BC: The Oracle has been built in a far away land!
Turn 101, 985 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs VQ Black's Archer (6.75)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Combat Odds: 0.5%
Turn 101, 985 BC: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 101, 985 BC: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 101, 985 BC: (Fortify: +5%)
Turn 101, 985 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 101, 985 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 101, 985 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 13 (74/100HP)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 101, 985 BC: VQ Black's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Archer!
Turn 101, 985 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs VQ Black's Archer (4.50)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Combat Odds: 0.3%
Turn 101, 985 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 101, 985 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 101, 985 BC: VQ Black's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 102, 970 BC: Kyoto can no longer work on The Oracle. The lost $ is converted into 434!
Turn 102, 970 BC: Isabella adopts Caste System!

Turn 103, 955 BC: The Pyramids has been built in a far away land!
Turn 103, 955 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs VQ Black's Archer (4.50)
Turn 103, 955 BC: Combat Odds: 9.9%
Turn 103, 955 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 103, 955 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 103, 955 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 103, 955 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 103, 955 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 103, 955 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 103, 955 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 103, 955 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 103, 955 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 103, 955 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 16 (36/100HP)
Turn 103, 955 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 103, 955 BC: VQ Black's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Archer!

Turn 106, 910 BC: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 106, 910 BC: VQ Black converts to Hinduism!
Turn 106, 910 BC: VQ Black's Archer (3.60) vs Barbarian's Warrior (2.00)
Turn 106, 910 BC: Combat Odds: 98.1%
Turn 106, 910 BC: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 106, 910 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 106, 910 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 106, 910 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 106, 910 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 106, 910 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 15 (55/100HP)
Turn 106, 910 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 15 (40/100HP)
Turn 106, 910 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 106, 910 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 15 (25/100HP)
Turn 106, 910 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 106, 910 BC: VQ Black's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 106, 910 BC: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.
Turn 106, 910 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs VQ Black's Archer (3.16)
Turn 106, 910 BC: Combat Odds: 11.2%
Turn 106, 910 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 106, 910 BC: (Fortify: +10%)
Turn 106, 910 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 106, 910 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 106, 910 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 106, 910 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 106, 910 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 14 (52/100HP)
Turn 106, 910 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 14 (38/100HP)
Turn 106, 910 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 106, 910 BC: VQ Black's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 107, 895 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs VQ Black's Archer (4.50)
Turn 107, 895 BC: Combat Odds: 9.9%
Turn 107, 895 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 107, 895 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 107, 895 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 107, 895 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 107, 895 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 107, 895 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 107, 895 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 107, 895 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 16 (36/100HP)
Turn 107, 895 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 107, 895 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 107, 895 BC: VQ Black's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Archer!

Turn 108, 880 BC: You have discovered Writing!

Turn 109, 865 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs VQ Black's Archer (5.53)
Turn 109, 865 BC: Combat Odds: 5.4%
Turn 109, 865 BC: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 109, 865 BC: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 109, 865 BC: (Fortify: +5%)
Turn 109, 865 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 109, 865 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 109, 865 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 14 (68/100HP)
Turn 109, 865 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 14 (54/100HP)
Turn 109, 865 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 109, 865 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 14 (40/100HP)
Turn 109, 865 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 109, 865 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 14 (26/100HP)
Turn 109, 865 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 109, 865 BC: VQ Black's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Archer!

Turn 110, 850 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs VQ Black's Archer (3.17)
Turn 110, 850 BC: Combat Odds: 46.9%
Turn 110, 850 BC: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 110, 850 BC: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 110, 850 BC: (Fortify: +10%)
Turn 110, 850 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 110, 850 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 110, 850 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 110, 850 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 110, 850 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 15 (31/100HP)
Turn 110, 850 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 15 (16/100HP)
Turn 110, 850 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 110, 850 BC: VQ Black's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Archer!

Turn 112, 820 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs VQ Black's Archer (4.70)
Turn 112, 820 BC: Combat Odds: 0.2%
Turn 112, 820 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 112, 820 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 112, 820 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 112, 820 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 13 (85/100HP)
Turn 112, 820 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 30 (70/100HP)
Turn 112, 820 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 30 (40/100HP)
Turn 112, 820 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 13 (72/100HP)
Turn 112, 820 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 30 (10/100HP)
Turn 112, 820 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 30 (0/100HP)
Turn 112, 820 BC: VQ Black's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 114, 790 BC: Moses has been born in a far away land!

Turn 116, 760 BC: The Kashi Vishwanath has been built in a far away land!

Turn 117, 745 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Osaka!
Turn 117, 745 BC: You have discovered Meditation!
Turn 117, 745 BC: Isabella adopts Slavery!

Turn 118, 730 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Osaka!
Turn 118, 730 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Osaka!
Turn 118, 730 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs VQ Black's Archer (7.35)
Turn 118, 730 BC: Combat Odds: 0.3%
Turn 118, 730 BC: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 118, 730 BC: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 118, 730 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 118, 730 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 118, 730 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 118, 730 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 30 (70/100HP)
Turn 118, 730 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 30 (40/100HP)
Turn 118, 730 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 30 (10/100HP)
Turn 118, 730 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 13 (74/100HP)
Turn 118, 730 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 13 (61/100HP)
Turn 118, 730 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 13 (48/100HP)
Turn 118, 730 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 13 (35/100HP)
Turn 118, 730 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 30 (0/100HP)
Turn 118, 730 BC: VQ Black's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Archer!
Turn 118, 730 BC: While defending, your Archer has killed a Barbarian Archer!

Turn 119, 715 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Osaka!
Turn 119, 715 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Osaka!

Turn 120, 700 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Osaka!
Turn 120, 700 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Osaka!
Turn 120, 700 BC: VQ Black's Archer (3.00) vs Barbarian's Warrior (2.00)
Turn 120, 700 BC: Combat Odds: 92.7%
Turn 120, 700 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 120, 700 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 120, 700 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 120, 700 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 120, 700 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 120, 700 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 120, 700 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 120, 700 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 120, 700 BC: VQ Black's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 120, 700 BC: Your Archer has destroyed a Warrior!
Turn 120, 700 BC: VQ Black's Archer (3.00) vs Barbarian's Warrior (2.00)
Turn 120, 700 BC: Combat Odds: 92.7%
Turn 120, 700 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 120, 700 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 120, 700 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 120, 700 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 120, 700 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 120, 700 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 120, 700 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 120, 700 BC: VQ Black's Archer is hit for 16 (36/100HP)
Turn 120, 700 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 120, 700 BC: VQ Black's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 120, 700 BC: Your Archer has destroyed a Warrior!


Here's the updated roster:

bobrath -- Black Leader -- on deck
namliaM -- first set complete
Cosmichail --> first set complete
Pigswill --> first set complete
LuvtoBuild --> first set complete
eektor --> UP or possible skip
 
I know I have been pushing IW a bit... But at the moment we are rooting for CS right? Why not take away CoL??? + it gives Courthouses which can lower our upkeep on the mainland...

:gripe:
Turn 14
The settler in Osaka completes and I have him hang loose for now.
:gripe:
7 turns... 7 turns of a settler hanging loose?? :gripe:
I would have stopped right there.. and not continue....

:gripe: You havent started a settler in Kyoto yet? A lib can/should be whipped. Settler are to be build and 2 of them ASAP ! to get those Islands up and running... as well as a worker to fetch us them cows... we can disband it afterwards... :gripe: Those 2 cities are low in upkeep and give some extra beakers fast.... I have downed the save... The cow island has 2 clams and the cow. The stone island has 2 Whales which are now 3 food, but cannot be netted untill some tech we dont have (Optics?)... Both are limited to size 4 but good for whipping and 8? commerce each!! Get them up!
While on the subject of Kyoto, its living large of the water and doesnt have a Lighthouse?

Sorry to moan and Groan like that... Good logging... nice details... Thats what Religion #3 now... for Isa... We know she has Hindu and Confused... I think she also has Judaism... Wow...

What do we think about city placement? I like my Yellow dot...
 
Lot of gripes in that one NamliaM. Better to have the settler hang loose then loose him trying to get him out. We need at least two archers to accompany him and it sounds like LuvtoBuild had his hands full. BTW very well written, which I enjoyed thoroughly especially enjoying the tongue in cheek humour.

Izzy has got to go sooner rather than later. Let's get those archers/settler to the other copper site. I guess it's going to be a choice between horses/copper at this point but I would say let's get the copper unless after IW we discover we have iron in Osaka. Then we can get swords/axes to deal with Izzy soon.

I agree with you NamliaM that we should get a settler to the island but the stone island I am not sure it's worth it. The whale isn't available until Optics (yes you're right) Settling on the island with clams/cow is great for science and whipping.

Tech path wise we should go for the TGL now if we can pull it off. We have enough precious metals to make the difference as well as sea resources. Get those libraries and settlers happenin.

So COL-->IW-->alphabet-->literature. I wouldn't trade away alphabet until we at least have the TGL well on it's way. The AI does move quick on Monarch so we should hold out. We will end up behind but once the TGL is built will catch up. Now that we have Izzy's religion for now I think getting COL (no masonry for now since we don't have marble) and get the GP to get CS and get us quicker to those maces.

If we can sneak a scientist in either city it will help greatly towards advancing and I would suggest Osaka since Kyoto has already GProphet points.

Nice turnset Sir Brian and it's great to see the evil rubbing off on you. MUUUHAAA!!!!
 
Man namliaM, calm down. There wouldn't have been any point in sending the settler out without sufficient protection. Assuming I did and got away with it, we would have been shorthanded in Osaka and probably lost a mine or maybe two. We can't do everything at once so I had to prioritize. I admit IW vs CoL might not be the best choice. I was on the fence and wasn't sure which was more important at the moment. I understand wanting CS as soon as we can get it but the GP isn't going to get us the whole tech anyway. It probably would get us CoL and we could have gotten IW in the meantime, maybe even Alphabet as well. It's a balancing act and I'm not sure we want to keep putting military techs off. Izzy might come knocking soon. As for the cow city, what's the rush? Nobody's going to beat us to it any time soon and competing for more cities on the mainland seems to be a better investment of maintenance. I did start a settler while going for writing and he will be done pretty soon after the Library if we really think we NEED that cow city. I think you're forgetting more cities will increase the maintenance in ALL of our cities, meaning Osaka might take a serious hit, as well as a second city on the mainland. As far as the Library goes, it's NOT whippable yet until the pop grows to 6. I agree that it SHOULD be whipped ASAP and I said so. I also said that a Lighthouse would be good next. Anyway, I appreciate the passion but let's not jump on each other just because somebody didn't do EXACTLY what we would have done. There have been moves I haven't been in total agreement with but I've left it to other's best judgement. That's part of playing an SG.


EDIT: After looking at the save again, I see that switching to CoL and then back to IW makes a lot of sense. The GP should pop in 40 turns. At our current :science: rate, we can get CoL in 29 turns and IW in 15 turns, a total of 44 turns. Switching the order would get us there in the same amount of time and setup CS to be finished after IW, or after Alphabet=>Literature. I'm thinking we should finish off CS first and go for Bureaucracy. That would do a lot for getting us a kickstart in science. Alphabet after that then will hopefully get us some worker techs from Izzy if we have something small to trade. If not, we should be able to knock them out quick. I'd hate to have the worker in Osaka run out of something to do but he could go with the third city and get it improved.
 
I appreciate the passion but let's not jump on each other just because somebody didn't do EXACTLY what we would have done.

LuvtoBuild, don't worry about Namliam (Mailman) he's a bit high strung. As you get to know him you'll find he's a good team player and has a good sense of humour. Being Dutch he's probably coming across different then what we Anglophones are used to. I played in another SG with a Dutchman and we had our share of misundertandings. Again there is a language difference and expressions tend to come across differently. Being Dutch myself and speaking it I find that the language is actually quite colourful and when putting it in English comes across different from the usual anglophone expressions.

I think that your turnset you did very well and our score is good in the progress page. Don't know what happened to VQ Red but last time I looked their score was really low at 1000BC. So don't let it bother you I'm glad you're on the team as you are definitely a "detail" man. As you know I just love the blood and guts. So getting IW is good for the swords/axe if we have iron in fatcross. Somewhere there we will need construction too as Izzy's defenses will be through the roof with all those religions.

Good analysis on the GP/COL/IW and totally agree with that approach. He will give the majority of CS short of a few turns.

What I'm wondering about is where bureaucracy will prove to work the best. Osaka or Kyoto?? If we move palace then Kyoto looses one happy and Osaka gains one. Wherever the science/money is, is where the palace should be. With all the water tiles Kyoto might excel in that dept but we have to see.

How are we going to get those two cities hooked up?? Are we going to have to wait until astronomy for any kind of connection there. That is going to be a pain and another thing construction is good for is Colosseums. If we want to make Kyoto major center need to up pop cap a lot. In addition looking to get to Monarchy will make a big difference in happiness. Osaka will be fine with the gold/gems/monarchy to grow enough for some serious output.

EDIT: After checking the progress page ratpack is very high in power so they must getting to warring. We are second in power and have the highest score but the game is still young of course.
 
One last thing after looking at the save. We aren't working the gems in Osaka and working a grass forest which results in the same amount of food/production but of course gems produce commerce.

Might I suggest the following:
Take citizen off oasis/grass forest, work the gem mines too. This makes a difference of 4 turns for IW.

Now LuvtoBuild you may have just finished getting the gems back on line but forgot to work them again.
 
I would like to say that I strongly disagree with the idea of settling around Kyoto at this point. Reason is that we started off as a two centre civ with high maintenance as a result and that won't be fixed until forbidden palace. This means that to keep costs down (and research up) we need to focus on one location to start with.
I think this means focussing on Osaka island and moving palace there because we have much more room to expand for one thing. The other factor is that Kyoto is essentially invulnerable until at least mediaeval times while Osaka is highly vulnerable; the way to make it safer is to make stronger whch means expanding there, building up an army and wiping out barbs and Bella
 
Cosmichail said:
LuvtoBuild, don't worry about Namliam (Mailman) he's a bit high strung.
Sorry ... :blush: LTB and the team, I am beeing a bit over competative?! I try and tone it down a nodge...
I can understand feeling underprotected... But then if thats the case? Why build the settler at all? Why not build 2 archers first. Only then to be followed by a Settler?

Getting the settler out tho, will eliminate the fog => Less barbs => Less defence needed...

Those 2 cities are Immensly important... really... The have low upkeep and will contribute nice :science: and :gold: to our GNP...

GP in 40, CoL + IW in 44? Do IW then CoL, if we can get one or 2 new cities (Island cities) we get extra commerce and the Libs will help too... Turn down science to 0 for 10 turns or so and then whip that lib meantime, we can run some 100% science now with a 25% bonus in our capitol...
Maybe whip a lib in Osaka as well... Then we are running 125% science across the board... In any case I am confident we can get IW + CoL < 40 Turns....

Edit: Plus appearently we are missing some Gem :commerce: bringing allready the missing 4 turns on IW alone ....

Expanding near Kyoto helps all the way around... It gets 2 more cities, thus 2 places to earn beakers
Even if we jump the palace to Osaka... The upkeep will be 8 (4 with courthouses in them, easy to whip!), those cities will earn 4 coins easy... While producing stuff on the :whipped:. I agree it will probably be rather isolated for a while... but...
I still have this thing that Gythar will have some contingency in place should some of the teams lose the Settler/city near Isa for some reason. 1 or 2 bad rols of the RNG and we could have lost Osaka as well...
The game must still (atleast) be winnable from that point forward. Therefor, we have both now... lets take advantage of both...There is atleast 1 more civ close to Kyoto, we can leave the palace there and conquer that civ... Meanwhile having conquered Isa.... with a FP there... Then we be in great shape...

I must admit that I am unsure of how much a Palace costs hammer wize... How many turns do we have to invest to jump the palace and get the Buro bonus in Osaka?
Getting those 2 island cities up, will aid in jumping the palace earlier too...

Edit2: Do we really want to stretch that far all the way to that copper? I say grab the Horses first... Maybe we luck out on Iron? If not we will/can produce another settler for the Copper? + The copper will require a long and thin connection with the raging barbs :(
 
Man, good catch Cosmichail. I totally missed the boat on the northern gem mine. I'm sure what happenned was the citizen there switched automatically to the forest tile when the barb in turn 20 moved to take out the mine. After I defeated both barbs, I forgot to check the city and get our citizens back on the gems. The mines were never destroyed. Luckily, I don't think we've missed any turns of working the mine yet. I'm glad you caught that, as it does make a significant difference in getting IW. Once Osaka grows again in 7 turns, working the southern gems will give us another big boost. So it does seem that finishing IW and then getting CoL before the GP pops is doable. I think increased maintenance will have an impact though, especially when we start plopping down cities. The Library in Kyoto would help offset that, as would one or more scientists.

I'm not sure about the connection between Kyoto and a cow city either. It might be connected through the ocean since it's in our cultural borders, much like being able to move the galley. If not, then hooking up the cows isn't going to help Kyoto much. The additional commerce from a cow city might be helpful but only if it offsets the additional maintenance that we will be hit with on an empire wide scale. My fear is that by building cow city too early, we cause more harm than good because of added maintenance on the mainland. It, along with the second city on the mainland, would give us the four cities for a palace jump though. Assuming we can stop building archers long enough to jump the Palace to Osaka. We could then put FP in Kyoto once we get two more cities on the mainland. I think we will eventually want the Palace jumped, it's just a matter of when.

As for building the settler, you're right namliaM. In hindsight, building one or two archers and then finishing the settler might have been better. At the time, I was thinking get the settler finished and get a second city. But then I realized I was a bit shorthanded in terms of protection. My Montgomery instinct kicked in and I turtled up a bit. There was a turn or two there in which I probably missed an opportunity to get him out, although they might have just been hiding in the fog.

As for city settlement site, I lean towards the horse city myself (yellow dot for the protection of the river crossing). It's on the river and the horses can be sent to Osaka easily. The copper is becoming less important to me since we will hopefully have IW soon and I'm betting on there being iron close by. Even if we don't have iron within reach, a horse city and closed borders would force Izzy to go around, thus delaying any attempts she might make in settling the south. We could go for a copper city afterwards. Horses would give us chariots and later horse archers. Chariots won't be as good as our own axemen against the barb axemen, but they will at least be better than fighting them with archers.

As for turning down the :science: to 0% for 10 turns, I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behind that and what it has to do with the building of the Library. Are you saying run 0% to build up a cash reserve that we then use later to allow us to run 100% with the libraries and get more :science: than we would have gotten running 60% and breaking even the whole time? I can sort of see where that makes sense.
 
I always believe in this game more is better. The more land we control the stronger more effective we will be in the long run. Settling on the cow island won't hurt us that much imo and agree with NamliaM's approach on that. I think too NamliaM did an excellent job founding Osaka. Like 2 gems/1 gold/flood plains for cottages (do we have pottery??). That cow island could be a major commerce center too eventually. Just imagine if we could sneak in colossus but will need a forge in Kyoto.

Stretching far with raging barb is not wise so the alternate copper site I agree has to wait. So the horses it is. Let's just hope that we have Iron near by otherwise we have no chance of taking izzy out. We have to do that soon as before you know it she's onto maces. She seems to have taken a religious route as recently went to slavery so hopefully she just discovered BW. If that's the case we still have some time to get sword/axes to take her out early.

Once we pull that CS slingshot off (sort of) we should think about alphabet/lit and hopefully we can trade some smaller techs with Izzy to move our tech base. Only thing with that is we move away from happiness/military tech path monarch/mathematics(prerequisite for const)construction.

Keeping those mines worked is really important to moving our tech base quick. Just for IW it shaved off 4 turns so for the rest it will reduce that from 44 to loosing 11 turns overall. So from 44 to 33. That's make a difference overall of 26% appr. It would be nice to sneak in pottery for the 11 turns we gain if we can keep the barbs from pillaging them. Having cottages in Osaka would be a big help towards commerce. I also notice maintenance in Osaka is -12gpt so a courthouse will be needed soon.

Binary science is a good idea but I tend to forget to move the slider so rarely do it especially if in the heat of battle. Warrior says what me worry about slider when blood needs to be spilled. Tactically Izzy is going to be nice since she is in jungle and our men will have the 50% bonus. So we should get to her before she discovers IW. She seems to have settled on the coast near the copper so we still could take it but her culture will pressure us considerably.

Here's a quick brainstorm.

Move settler right on top of that copper and start building some axes since Izzy doesn't have it and go after her now. No matter what culture pressure there we will keep the copper and put out some axes to take that coastal city near the copper. Hopefully by the time we get to Madrid will have cats to remove defenses. Just an idea as when I look at the save the copper is right there and it looks like she's settled on the coast. We might want to OB with for some scouting too but of course the barbs must go away.

Remember the goal of the game is conquest....
 
Ok looked again at save re the palace.

To build it in Osaka will take 35 turns/240 hammers so forget that for a while until we get some mines built. We need agriculture too for the rice.

Tech Path 1 (science)

after IW/COL/CS which will take total less than 40 turns with GP
-->alphabet-->Literature for TGL
(at current research rate alpha 19 turns literature 15 turns 34 in total)

Tech Path 2 Military/happiness

after IW/COL/CS
-->monarchy-->mathematics-->construction
(at current research rate Monarch 19 turns Math 16 turns construction 27 turns for total of 62 turns)

We could probably could shave off 25% of those turns once libraries are in place which will have an effect already at COL/CS. So the amount of turns overall will be better but this way can plan somewhat.

I like tech path 1 for the following reasons:

With alpha we can start trading with Izzy and since she has no trading partners unlikely getting ahead at the usual pace AI's do. Please do not trade alpha away until TGL is well on the way. It happened to me I traded it thinking I'm fine and boom lost the TGL. I am sure there other techs we can trade but please don't give her IW either. What I would like to trade for if we can is agriculture/pottery. Tech path 2 is too slow and we'll have to get by with horses/swords/axes.

Another thing too is we need to choke Izzy up there in the north somehow and once she moves settlers our way (if we have OB) close OB. OB improves relations but also nice for scouting out what she has. If she's doing the hatty thing (spawning/religion) her defense might be weak but Izzy is hard to tell. From what I can tell she has 4 cities now so there can't be much military there.

EDIT: If anyone is thinking maces with CS well forget that for now as it's some 81 turns away. Again too slow until we improve our science. (MC--28 turns Mach--53 turns) Maybe more like 60 turns with libs and less with one scientist. Getting a GS will help a lot too. With libs alpha/lit will take more like 26 turns. LTB I see your reasoning re southern gems but feel we should work them now as growth will still happen. Let's hope the next player catches that.
 
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