SGOTM 02 - VQ Red

Maquis · Aug 22, 2006

Yes, I now concur that moving the palace is not the right thing to do. The issues alone support that.

We're doing fine on isle Osaka, and will only be better once we build the FP there (In Osaka I assume?) We're not that far off Astonomy anyways (3-4 techs?)

Since we are not moving the palace, we are then able to keep more of the cities on the AI mainland, once captured. This will only help to speed along our conquest.

AS for the question on Universal sufferage, I am planning on looking at the save in a couple hours, and come up with some numbers. The big question in my mind, is it worth more to stay in representation (and get the

bonus, which is useful for Slavery) or have the option to crank out more units?

GreyFox · Aug 22, 2006

One disadvantage is we are not spiritual, so any switch in civics is a 2 anarchy turns penalty. So we must analyse very carefully the advantages of Representation vis-a-vis UniSuff. I think the best option is to stay in Representation initially (that is when GP come in very fast, so we want specialist) and while accumulating gold. Once we are ready to start mass-production of units, we switch to UniSuff, buy to our hearts content. Whether or not we switch back to Representation is up to situation. The war loot alone may be able to fund more buying, or we could revert back to rep and use the war loot for upgrades.

-

armstrong · Aug 23, 2006

I don't think Universal Suffrage would be worth it. Kyoto will be rush-producing units as fast as it can in any case, and the other cities there will have enough food too whip a unit every 10 turns (once we get whales online, at least.) We lose a lot of research from Representation that we'll want in case this drags on too long, and rush-buying itself isn't so useful prior to Banks.

I guess the main point is - why rush buy if we have the food to :whipped:

?

Maquis · Aug 23, 2006

I guess the main point is - why rush buy if we have the food to

Understood. I was just raising the question, why *only* :whipped:

, if you can :whipped:

AND

?

I agree though, it may just be best to stay in Representation for the time being...

Codeman · Aug 23, 2006

i can see benefits both ways. but if this were my personal game and not a SG i would just stay with things as they are just because i can not see that switching would be that much better. although i would like to buy when i couldn't whip...

GreyFox · Aug 23, 2006

Diplomatic

Checked our relationship with Bis and Hatty:

They don't like us being in Buddhism ... this will cause Hatty to stop trading with us, and also cause the iron of Bismarck to be redded out:

So, a revolt to no state is necessary ... but I will wait until we get one or two more units out. In 1106AD, we revolted.

One turn of anarchy. I have not revolt out of Theocracy. I don't know if it is worth the 2 turns anarchy for some savings in civics upkeep.

With that, our relationship improved. Bismarck no longer red out his iron (although we have nothing that he fancy):

Hatty is also willing to give us a better trade than 290g+Drama:

And of-course I signed OB with her to free our galley from its prison:

And the galley finaly travelled north to meet the last civ, none other than Mr Little Red Book.

He is alreayd annoyed with us for trading with his worst enemy (I suspect is Hatty).

Military

Started off with some troops movement ... we have 2 defenders per city up north ... its a waste. There is no barbs there, and both Izzy's galleys are empty. So I dragged a spear down to do fog-busting, revealing a barbie gallley. Next player may want to keep an eye on the galley, just in case Izzy attempt to sneak some troops up north. I doubt it, but just stay alert[/b]. I also reinforced our attackers with a medic axe. Oh, I veto the harbor and change it to barracks, which is whipped at 1070AD. Start a work boat next, while letting the angriness cool off.

In 1055 AD, whipped a sword out of Osaka, and we killed a wandering Spanish archer. I'd also reduced research to 50% since I want to get Machinery from Hatty as well.

In 1112AD: killed more spanish troops, comprising of Chariots, Axe, archer, and cat. ANother cat suicide itslf into our sword.

Then the attack of Toledo beings :hammer:

!

Sure win, right? That's what I thought ... :aargh:

!

This stroke of bad RNG roll delayed the capture of Toledo to 6 years later:

City was kept. Next player gets to march our forces south to take another city. Izzy is left with 3 cities, consider razing the west city. The third city seems to be in crappy tundra as well, so maybe also raze, but take a look first. The one in the middle can be kept, I think. There seems to be more land towards the SE. We need to kill her off, the return-to-motherland-WW is already hitting Madrid hard ... (of-course plus I whipped it as well :mischief:

).

The world:

If the Fractal map produces a circular ring, then expect MM towards the east.

Oh, with drama in, I vetoed all current builds in the island cities for theatre, and also started 3 more in the cities of Osaka land. The slowest city have a worker chop in progress, so we should be able to see the Globe Theatre whipped next turnset.

>>> The Save <<<

Spoiler Extracted Log :

Maquis · Aug 23, 2006

It looks like the map is shaping out... I suspect the isles of Kyoto are completely encased in the main continent. Very thoughtfu, those admins! :lol:

Hopfully Izzy won't last much past the next turnset... :hammer:

Codeman · Aug 23, 2006

so who's up next. kinda lost track of the roster...

Codeman · Aug 23, 2006

dot said:
The roster:

Maquis == Is up!
GreyFox == On deck!
Scowler == relwocS
Codeman == namedoC
armstrong == gnortsmra
Krockel == OoP til 4th September
dot == Set up Maquis to capture Madrid.

okay. i found the last roster post. which means scowler is now up since greyfox just played.

GreyFox · Aug 23, 2006

Maquis said:
It looks like the map is shaping out... I suspect the isles of Kyoto are completely encased in the main continent. Very thoughtfu, those admins!

I suspect so as well ... then we go back to the question of how the hell did Toku's brother travel all the way to Osaka island without meeting any of these peripheral Civs.

Yep, Scowler is UP, Codeman is ON DECK.

--

GreyFox · Aug 23, 2006

Oh, one more thing. I have yet started the FP, since theatre is more urgent. I suggest building the forbident palace in the city just north of Osaka instead of Osaka ... Osaka may be needed for some other national wonders (such as Oxford, WallStreet, Ironworks).

--

armstrong · Aug 24, 2006

GreyFox said:
I suspect so as well ... then we go back to the question of how the hell did Toku's brother travel all the way to Osaka island without meeting any of these peripheral Civs.

He tunneled, of course!

And enraged the molemen, which is why we had so many damn barbs to fight off.

GreyFox said:
Oh, one more thing. I have yet started the FP, since theatre is more urgent. I suggest building the forbident palace in the city just north of Osaka instead of Osaka ... Osaka may be needed for some other national wonders (such as Oxford, WallStreet, Ironworks).

Hmm, I don't know if it's that big of a deal. I agree with theatre first, but those national wonders all come pretty late, so I'd imagine we'd want to use the hammers on military instead for fast conquest. The city north of Osaka doesn't have much in the way of production if I remember correctly. Getting the FP in Osaka now to save lots of gpt early is probably better than being stuck with a sub-optimal Oxford or Wall Street later (if we even build 'em.)

GreyFox · Aug 24, 2006

I beg to differ ... the city north of Osaka could easily be pumped with hammers by snatching the gems from Osaka temporarily, and there are tons of forest to chop. Afterall, there are nothing else to produce urgently that requires chops. Osaka's hammer is more useful to built infrastructure that we have been neglecting to make full use of the resources it has.

Yes, the goal is to go for earliest conquest ... but its a mistake to neglect science and economy. Especially when Osaka's cities won't be building the initial waves of troops (these will be whipped at Kyoto, Edo and Tokyo). Thus, instead, once Pouty Pants is history, all of Osaka's cities should focus on infractsructure to help fund the war effort at Kyoto, and maybe grab a world wonder or two. Next, Oxford & Ironworks isn't that far away (considering there are still 5 major Civs out there, all technological superior to us), and its definitely not sub-optimal.

armstrong · Aug 24, 2006

armstrong said:
Getting the FP in Osaka now to save lots of gpt early is probably better than being stuck with a sub-optimal Oxford or Wall Street later (if we even build 'em.)

Responding to myself (bad form? :nono:

), another thought - with all the food that Madrid has, isn't Wall Street best placed there (along with National Epic)? It can run lots of merchant and priest specialists with all that food (grocer+market is 4 merchants, temple+shrine is 4 priests) and, along with the shrine, that will be a lot of :gold:

. Even if we settle on Oxford or IW in Osaka, we definitely don't want both of them in the same city.

armstrong · Aug 24, 2006

I should have checked the thread before posting again! :lol:

GreyFox said:
I beg to differ ... the city north of Osaka could easily be pumped with hammers by snatching the gems from Osaka temporarily, and there are tons of forest to chop. Afterall, there are nothing else to produce urgently that requires chops. Osaka's hammer is more useful to built infrastructure that we have been neglecting to make full use of the resources it has.

Ah, I should have looked at the save :blush:

. I originally classified the city as "mostly flat grassland" so I forgot it had some forests to chop. And it's true that Osaka needs infrastructure. I was worried we'd get stuck building FP at 5 hammers/turn if we moved it north, but if we have a lot of forests to chop then I will endorse moving it there.

GreyFox said:
Yes, the goal is to go for earliest conquest ... but its a mistake to neglect science and economy. Especially when Osaka's cities won't be building the initial waves of troops (these will be whipped at Kyoto, Edo and Tokyo). Next, Oxford & Ironworks isn't that far away (considering there are still 5 major Civs out there, all technological superior to us), and its definitely not sub-optimal.

Right. But we're not too many techs away from Chemistry and Steel right now... I'm thinking we can stop research at Steel, so would Oxford even be pay for itself (given we need 6 uni's first, none of which we want to build in the islands?)

GreyFox · Aug 24, 2006

You are right about Madrid ... and had a point about Oxford ... so, I agree we could build FP in Osaka, and delegate WS and OU to Madrid. A possibility.

RE: stopping at Chem+Steel ... that depends. if at that time, we have eliminated half the Civs in the ring, and the surviving Civs are not too advance as to flashing around with destroyers and tanks, yes. CRII/III grenies and cannons will be able to finish any Civ still running with infantries. Else, we have no choice but to press on with Combustion, AssLine, Artillery, Industrialism.

--

Scowler · Aug 24, 2006

Save gotten.

Scowler · Aug 25, 2006

...and played. But the report will have to wait for a few hours. The save has been uploaded to the scoreboard, if anyone wants to take a look. Otherwise, I'll post the link when I finish the report.

Scowler · Aug 25, 2006

(0) 1130AD
- Courthouse whipped in Barca
- I vetoed the Lighthouse (which is not at all urgent) at Santiago in favour of a theatre

(1) 1136AD
- A visitor drops by unexpectedly for tea and a chat...

The Mongolian borders can be seen directly to the north of Edo. I take the opportunity to make the following trade:

It seems that the islands are indeed surrounded. However, the mystery of Toku's brother has been solved: the land is not unbroken, and since we can't get past Mao's borders, I send the galley into an easterly channel through Hattyland.

- Research is set to Civil Service so that we can take advantage of Bureaucracy.
- Meanwhile Izzy slips a chariot out through the gates of Murcia: it looks like she's planning on doing some pillaging...

I send the northern fogbuster after it in the hope of stopping her before she does too much damage. Unfortunately, all our other units from Osaka have been sent south to conquer the remaining cities.

(2) 1142AD
- It seems that Izzy may have changed her mind and decided to attack Osaka itself (which would be a pretty dumb move...):

- Theatres whipped at Edo and Tokyo
- I decide to sell Lit. to Mansa for 340g. It no longer has any trading value, and the cash will allow us to continue running deficit research at 100% for a few extra turns. Moreover, he is likely to get it from Hatty or Bismarck at any time so we might as well take advantage.

(3) 1148AD
- Oops, she did it again. The indecisive Isabella sends her chariot onto a cottage instead of attacking the city. That would actually be a sensible move, except that my axeman is now waiting...

This chariot is deceased.

- Osaka completes its theatre so the Forbidden Palace is now set up.
- Another theatre is whipped at Santiago, and a Buddhist Temple in Madrid.
- In other news, Islam has been founded.

(4) 1154AD
- Oh dear. That silly old fart, Kublai Khan, is insisting that we adopt Hereditary Rule. Er... no!
- Yet another theatre whipped, this time at Cordoba.

(5) 1160AD
- And another theatre - in Kyoto

(6) 1166AD

- Globe Theatre set up in Kyoto
- Troops are now in place at Circassian and bombardment of the defenses begins

(7) 1172AD
- Alas, the force is not strong with us today. With defenses now reduced to zero, our first swordsman attacks an archer in Circassian with combat odds of 93.7% - and loses! :aargh:

We take out our frustration on a spearman instead.

(8) 1178AD

Catapults and wounded units rest in the conquered city. The remaining axemen are sent west towards Murcia.

(9) 1184AD
- HC has reached Osaka island!

This is definitely not welcome news!

- Work Boat whipped at Edo
- Theatre whipped at Toledo

(10) 1190AD
- Civil Service comes in; research set to Feudalism
- We revolt to Bureaucracy.

(11) 1196AD
- Troops arrive at Murcia and take the city easily. We don't get a choice whether to keep it or not: it is only size 1 so it gets auto-razed.

(12) 1202AD
- Circassian comes online, hitting us with an additional 12 doubloons of upkeep.

(13) 1208AD
:coffee:

(14) 1214AD
- Forbidden Palace is whipped at Osaka for 3 pop (I previously chopped two otherwise worthless forests outside the BFC).
- Courthouse whipped at Toledo. Hopefully both of these will considerably improve our cashflow, cos we can no longer sustain 100% research (we were losing nearly 100g per turn)

(15) 1220AD
- Osaka: FP -> Granary
- Toledo: Courthouse -> Granary
- We now have a Gt Scientist ready and waiting to do stuff at Kyoto
- Our eastern attack force is approaching Izzy's final city; she shouldn't last more than two more turns.

- We are currently running at 40% science
- Fogbusters have been put in place; there is now only a single unlit tile left on Osaka island.
- Both whales have been connected, but as predicted Bismarck turned his nose up at them; in fact the iron now redded-out altogether cos he doesn't like us enough.
- Our galley has continued travelling, and you can now see our map of the world:

~ Save ~

GreyFox · Aug 25, 2006

Civil Service??? Feudalism???? Optics!!!! The Whale!! The Circumnavigation!!!

--

Nice turns, except for the civil service part ...

Abt the lighthouse vs theatre, I ensured that 6 cities are producing theatres so you actually need not veto the lighthouse. (or did I count wrongly? Apparently I did not, since the last screenie shows that kyoto is already building the Globe while Santiago is still building theatre)

Too bad abt the sword (may he rest in peace!) ... such odds happens. :sad:

--

SGOTM 02 - VQ Red

King

Make it so ...

Prince

King

King

Make it so ...

King

King

King

Make it so ...

Make it so ...

Prince

Make it so ...

Prince

Prince

Make it so ...

Mr. Understatement

Mr. Understatement

Mr. Understatement

Make it so ...

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