SGOTM 02 - VQ Red

[armstrong]

Food surplus and civics:
With all these food resources and the possibility to change civis to caste system and pacifism why not build a whole bunch of great persons and either catch up with them techwise or trigger one or the other golden age. ?

Interesting. Unfortunately, Pacifism would not help our cities out in the islands (unless we send over a caravel with a missionary, which will take quite some time.) However, we could get some Great Scientists in a hurry, and it would improve our tech rate in the short term. This hadn't occurred to me at all, I see some really nice things with it. What does everyone else think?

Science and Taxes:
I'd try to get some money. This could be used for upgrading units later. But still go for science with a slight "+" gpt-wise.

I don't see any real need for this... if we want to upgrade troops later, we can drop to 0% research. I'd rather have the tech earlier.

Military:
I'd also go for the military build up on the Osaka continent. I'd say take care of some defence in the islands....

I think those numbers are a bit high. I was thinking more along the lines of... 6 frigates, no new land troops. The AI tends to be really bad at naval assaults. Getting a fishing boat pillaged isn't the end of the world. I'd rather have 12 units attacking the other civs...

Techs:
Sure, try to go chemistry and steel. That is a must since we need to conquer. But astronomy would be the ultimate must if we decide to move our troops from the continent. Maybe we can use one or the other GP on it - I know I repeat myself.

Well, if we switch to Caste System our army must be built and transported over from the Spanish continent, as we will no longer have access to slavery.
One possible solution is to switch to wait to switch to Caste System until Globe is finished and we've whipped about 10 samurai (ideally CR2) that we can then upgrade to Grens. Or, we can switch to Caste System now and switch back to Slavery once we get Chemistry.

Now, whom to attack?
I don't know. I don't think that it really matters. They'll bite us anyways. But we might want to try and keep Mansa and especially Biz happy with us for some more time.

Mao seems to be the most isolated in terms of relations, and he is the lowest hanging fruit...

Final thoughts from me:

1. No one has Astronomy yet. If we could get that first, we could trade it around for a lot of techs and maybe, just maybe, a war declaration or two. That would make our job a lot easier. We can trade Astronomy for Guilds & Engineering. If we could also wait a turn and get Gunpowder out of the deal, we could then lightbulb half of Chemistry and have Grens within 30 turns Actually, we could have two great scientists when Astronomy finishes, so that means we could light bulb Chemistry in about 20 (!) turns.

2. I think the Caste System/Pacifism switch might be a good idea. However, timing it will be important, I think. I don't know if it's better to switch instantly, or later, or not at all. Pacifism (on it's own) or Theocracy could also be useful, as relations with the other civs aren't that important if we have Astronomy. What do y'all think?

 

[Codeman]

who to attack? - i vote mao.
when? - shortly after astronomy.
why? - we can build cats on the islands and osaka cont until after astronomy. then we could have access to iron in the islands. build a fleet on osaka for future transporting to main ring. while building fleet on cont build the support (samari) in the islands. use the island force on mao. try to have an ally or 2 join us. we then have less time needed to prepare for next war, making for quicker conquest.

thoughts?

 

[armstrong]

who to attack? - i vote mao.
when? - shortly after astronomy.
why? - we can build cats on the islands and osaka cont until after astronomy. then we could have access to iron in the islands. build a fleet on osaka for future transporting to main ring. while building fleet on cont build the support (samari) in the islands. use the island force on mao. try to have an ally or 2 join us. we then have less time needed to prepare for next war, making for quicker conquest.

Do you think we can go for a Samurai/Cat war? Or will we need to wait for Grens? Mao is the smallest fry, so it might be possible...

Also, any opinions on dot's idea about switching to Caste Syste/Pacifism?

 

[Codeman]

Do you think we can go for a Samurai/Cat war?

i think we could at least take a couple cities. may not be able to wipe them out... but we could have them ready to be finished off easily when we are ready.

Also, any opinions on dot's idea about switching to Caste Syste/Pacifism?

torn between the possibilities that become avail once we switch and the exp points/ combo. the exp points could be the diff between a winning battle and a losing battle. slavery can be the diff between having enough troops or not. maybe leave alone until the force is assembled, then switch. don't have to wait until after the war. we could switch the same turn we declare.

if we want to chance it, change civics now and still declare. only take 1-2 cities. or just wait until gren.

but the longer we wait the stronger the ai gets. the farther the lead the ai has. also, the longer we wait the longer we take to have a conquest victory.

there's my opinion.

 

[Codeman]

guess i should have read all posts before replying...

1. No one has Astronomy yet. If we could get that first, we could trade it around for a lot of techs and maybe, just maybe, a war declaration or two. That would make our job a lot easier. We can trade Astronomy for Guilds & Engineering. If we could also wait a turn and get Gunpowder out of the deal, we could then lightbulb half of Chemistry and have Grens within 30 turns Actually, we could have two great scientists when Astronomy finishes, so that means we could light bulb Chemistry in about 20 (!) turns.

if it's 20 turns from right now then all the discussion on samari is void. we couldn't have the navy to transport our forces ready in 20 turns. before we could build more than a couple units we would have grens. that would actually change some of my prev thoughts. cats are helpful with samari or gren. so we could start rushing the cats. once astro is in rush the galleons. then rushh the grens. then rush mao. take 2-3 cities.

 

[armstrong]

if it's 20 turns from right now then all the discussion on samari is void. we couldn't have the navy to transport our forces ready in 20 turns. before we could build more than a couple units we would have grens. that would actually change some of my prev thoughts. cats are helpful with samari or gren. so we could start rushing the cats. once astro is in rush the galleons. then rushh the grens. then rush mao. take 2-3 cities.

Well, it's 20 turns in the best case scenario. There's a chance that we won't be able to trade for Gunpowder (or even Guilds/Engineering) and also a chance we won't get a second Great Scientist (though only about 8% on the latter.)

We don't need galleons to reach Mao, but the journey by galley seems like it would take awhile since we'd need to run counter clockwise around the coast, so we might as well get the cats built in the meantime. We can double-tripple-quadruple whip the two lesser islands for that, I think, since when Astronomy kicks in they'll get +happy resources.

Any more thoughts from GreyFox/Scowler/anyone else? Right now I'm thinking I'll:

1. Research Astronomy
2. Build Globe in Osaka, and HE if there's time, then CR samurai if there's still more time.
3. Build catapults in the lesser islands.
4. Try to trade Astronomy around to get Grens as fast as possible, whip some galleons.

Some questions:

1. What to do with the Osaka continent... units or research?
2. What about Pacifism or Theocracy (after Globe finishes)?
3. Should I overwhip the two lesser islands to build up cats+navy? I don't want to saddle everyone with 80 turns of inherited unhappiness if they aren't expecting it
4, How long should I play? I'm thinking about 1 turn after Astronomy comes in so we can see our trading options and plan ahead from there (so ~20ish.)

 

[Scowler]

I believe that Pacifism is not worthwhile. Remember, we only receive the GPP bonus in cities which have a state religion, and we currently do not have a state religion! Armstrong mentioned the situation in the islands, but it is also only beneficial elsewhere if we additionally switch to Buddhism (Madrid) or Judaism (Barcelona). To clarify, this is the current situation in the most important GP cities:

• Kyoto: +9GPP (can manage +15)
  Next GP due in 33 (20) turns (37% Prophet; 62% Scientist)
  No change under Pacifism

• Edo: +9GPP
  Next GP due in 14 turns (92% Scientist; 7% Artist)
  No change under Pacifism

• Barcelona: +10GPP
  Next GP due in 26 turns (96% Prophet)
  Change under Pacifism + Judaism: GP due in 13 turns

• Madrid: +12GPP
  Next GP due in 19 turns (type is anyone's guess)
  Change under Pacifism + Buddhism: GP due in 10 turns

So, the best we can hope for is to gain 4 turns on the next GP, by exploiting Buddhism at Madrid. However, we also lose 2 turns to revolutions (civic change; religion change). Is it worth switching to Pacifism for those 2 turns? I don't think so. In the long-term it might be worthwhile, but we are looking to start a war before too long and will have to switch back before we gain any real turn advantage (I think). Moreover, we also get landed with an additional expense of 24(?)g due to unit support in the meantime. Finally, the GP pool at Madrid is now so diluted that we cannot guess what type of GP we will get. At least if we stick with Edo we have a pretty good chance of a scientist.

For anyone wanting to work out possible tech routes via GP, the article on GPP tech preferences can be found here.

Just my 2

However, there is one further point: just as Pacifism is dependent on a state religion, so is Theocracy. Correct me if I am wrong, but we will also not get the experience bonus unless we adopt a religion?

 

[GreyFox]

Sorry for being relatievly slient for the past few days ...

I thought KYOTO is already half-way through the Globe? Why the change in Globe from Kyoto to Osaka? Osaka has enough production to produce army quick enough, but the real bottleneck is naval transport. So it will really help if Kyoto is the one with Globe and we the hell out of it. At least the military logistic supply is much shorten.

Going for Astro is obvious. I am not sure about Pacifism though. I think extra XP is more critical.

My thinking is Osaka continent will build the units for an initial declaration. Any lost units (esp cats) are resupplied by Kyoto triplet.

Whip all you can, I say. But given the rate of growth, I don't think you can whip much ... in any case, you have to let the city grow back to get a second whip.

Play as long as you want

 

[Codeman]

I believe that Pacifism is not worthwhile.

after your input and some reading, i agree.

...just as Pacifism is dependent on a state religion, so is Theocracy. Correct me if I am wrong, but we will also not get the experience bonus unless we adopt a religion?

you're right...

+2 experience points in cities with state religion;
No non-state religion spread

so....

 

[Codeman]

My thinking is Osaka continent will build the units for an initial declaration. Any lost units (esp cats) are resupplied by Kyoto triplet.

i concur.

 

[armstrong]

I believe that Pacifism is not worthwhile. Remember, we only receive the GPP bonus in cities which have a state religion, and we currently do not have a state religion!

I had assumed we had some religion in the islands from Hatty's continent? Or not? If not, neither one makes a whole lot of sense, at least in the next 20 turns...

Moreover, we also get landed with an additional expense of 24(?)g due to unit support in the meantime.

It's not really that bad. It applies only to military units, and like regular upkeep you get some free units and the upkeep cost isn't a full gold per unit (as long as you're not playing diety.) Being a no upkeep civic, it's usually cheaper than OR unless you're building a massive army to take over the world .

I thought KYOTO is already half-way through the Globe?

Whoops! That was a typo. You know how my mind is with these two capitals...

you're right...

+2 experience points in cities with state religion;
No non-state religion spread

so....

Right, like Pacifism, I was assuming we had a religion in the islands. If we don't, then obviously it's no use right away.

Okay, I'll play this in a few hours, then.

 

[Scowler]

I had assumed we had some religion in the islands from Hatty's continent? Or not? If not, neither one makes a whole lot of sense, at least in the next 20 turns...

No, you're right: I wasn't paying attention. We DO have Taoism at Kyoto, though I'm still not convinced of the merits of Pacifism here .

Thanks for the info about military upkeep: I simply couldn't be bothered to number-crunch.

 

[armstrong]

Hey everyone,

I'm halfway or so through my turns. For similar reasons to Codeman last Friday I'll finish up tomorrow.

 

[Codeman]

i can only hope you enjoy as much as i did. . and am.

 

[dot]

... Go for barracks all over the land, queue the units in every city, revolt to theocracy and feudalism and a state religion that is spread everywhere and churn them out.

What I haven't posted explicitely - my fault here - is that I've been thinking about spreading buddhism and or judaism. Since we already have both shrines this will ...

1. ... help with our .
2. ... help with our .
3. ... help with our +2XP since we also do need religion to gain the theocracy benefit.
4. ... help with our GP production under pacifism.

Basically spreading a religion is of a lot of help! But we should either do it fast or don't do it at all, imho. Your thoughts, folks?

If I have overlooked a post that did already comment on this, please forgive me. I'm rather busy irl lately.

Regards, .

 

[armstrong]

Well, that was a frusterating turnset... and this will be a short report. I only played 13 turns because I had a city get captured...

Things are going somewhat according to plan. It's really hard to balance the , specialists, and cottages to maximize research. Kyoto has built Globe Theatre and a Forge, and it's now set up to whip catapults and then send the overflow into HE until it can whip it. It should (hopefully) be able to get it finished before Astronomy comes in.

Speaking of which, we still have a monopoly on Astronomy, it's due in 11 but can be sped up with some MM I think (hiring lots and lots of specialists, etc.) We're quite backwards otherwise, though. I'm scared someone will get it first and trade it around, though it seems like most of the AI's have fairly balanced techs:

The most frusterating part:

He used our road! Grr! He only had a 21% chance to win, but does, of course:

I recaptured the city with a 17 exp sword I upgraded to a samurai (Combat1 CR3 Shock samurai do really, really horrible things to macemen, which was some nice vengeance.)

There are no more patches of fog on the Spanish-Japanese continent, though some coasal waters have. Speaking of which, they won't leave Circassian alone...

There are at least 3 galleys floating around in that side of the island... hence the caravel build to clear it out.

Blech, okay, my apologies for playing a bit of a stinker of a game... I think we're still on track though.

The save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm2/VQ_Red_SG002_AD1388_01.Civ4SavedGame

 

[dot]

the roster:
Maquis == On deck!
GreyFox == xoFyerG.
Scowler == relwocS.
Codeman == Finished off Izzy!
armstrong == Lost a city, gained a city.
Krockel == OoP til 4th September.
dot == UP!

Got it!

Any thoughts and/or comments, lads? (Also on post #295, please.)

@Krockel: If you're back already and want to play ... give me a post!

Regards, .

 

[GreyFox]

Too bad abt the barb, armstrong, it happens ... but nicely re-captured!

I've looked at the save, some coments:

Kyoto can probably whip cats every 2~3 turns. Great! But remember to not only concentrate on cats, but also caravels ... since we are going to be astronomy era when we declare.

Tokyo is currently on stagnant ... better remove 1 scientists and let it grow.

Spreading religion is a must ... we should try to do so whenever possible. Its slow, but I don't think we are going to be ready for any attack soon, at least not in the next 30 turns I think.

We have a bunch of sites that needs to be filled up.

I still think its a mistake to have forbident palace in Osaka and Palace in kyoto, I think it should be the other way round. Anyway, what's done is done. In such cases, I think its better for us to change to Vassalae for the extra xp instead of staying in Bureacracy. I don't think the +50% hammer (which is only 1) and +50% commerce (which is 13) is worth it.

And we are still in theocracy for ... ? Getting a state religion might cause the AIs to gang up against us. They seems to be one big happy family, and none of them is particularly pleased with us.

--

 

[armstrong]

Tokyo is currently on stagnant ... better remove 1 scientists and let it grow.

That was actually intentional, for faster Astronomy. It needs to grow 3x before it's efficient to turn a scientist into coastal workers. I don't want to miss that trade! After Astro, definitely turn it up to max food for whipping Galleons/Grens.

but I don't think we are going to be ready for any attack soon, at least not in the next 30 turns I think.

Why not?

Grens/Astro should come in 11 turns, we should have a force ready pretty soon after than.

I still think its a mistake to have forbident palace in Osaka and Palace in kyoto, I think it should be the other way round. Anyway, what's done is done. In such cases, I think its better for us to change to Vassalae for the extra xp instead of staying in Bureacracy. I don't think the +50% hammer (which is only 1) and +50% commerce (which is 13) is worth it.

The +50% hammer affects not only the base hammers, but also the . But, I think you're right about it being better to have moved the Palace. On the other hand, it also lets us build HE in Kyoto, so it's worth +150% production there.

And we are still in theocracy for ... ? Getting a state religion might cause the AIs to gang up against us. They seems to be one big happy family, and none of them is particularly pleased with us.

I have no clue - I didn't know we were running it.

 

[GreyFox]

Last that I see Astro is coming in 11. (and if you think we need Gren, its going to take a lot longer. Chemistry needs Engineering & Gunpowder, which need Guilds. Even assuming we can trade Astro for Engineering and Guilds, we still need Gunpowder and chemistry). We don't have any ships to speak of Kyoto is only starting a cat. I seriously can't see how we can declare in 20 turns, 30 turns perhaps.

We were running theocracy during my previous turnset. I clearly indicated I am switching us out of Buddhism to improve relationships and explained that I left theocracy there because I don't want further anarchy turns affecting our production. We are still at war then. I expect after the war, someone may have find a time to catch our breadth and revolt back to Paganism . Ah, nvm, its cheap anyway, but it does prevent us from spreading any religions, both from within and from without.

Hmm ... if bureacracy also cause whips to increase by 50%, then maybe its worthwhile to keep it.