Sam_Yeager
Another Original Geezer
I think it's only 4 seafood
but your point still stands. However atm we only have one reasonally productive city at present so it's a case of trying to choose the best builds.
SGOTM 03 - Geezers
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
I think it's only 4 seafood
but your point still stands. However atm we only have one reasonally productive city at present so it's a case of trying to choose the best builds.It's even more valid with 5. Fish&Clam-Moscow, 2Clam StPete, Fish CoppertownskiI think it's only 4 seafood
I've had a look at the game and my thoughts are as follow:
- Whip obelisk in SP and SP can carry on building the granary.
- Start workboat in Moscow for Coppertownski.
- Transport worker to Coppertownski in galley. Galley can then start exploring the Great Unknown.
- Great Lighthouse is probably not worth it atm. Bear in mind that only Stonehenge has been built so far. Even the Oracle's still up for grabs
- After the workboat in Moscow I think we should get a granary so that it can regrow faster after each whip. After that, well there's just so many things.
Another worker, chariot(s), barracks, galley etc. but i think library is best, perhaps even before the granary.
- I agree with IW after Writing. Skip Masonry for the time being. As we're down to 90% science it's probably best to use binary science now.
- I do think it would be helpful if we could get a warrior in our cities so that they waste less food growing.
First question is what exactly is binary research?
Second, as to the Great Lighthouse, I know the Oracle hasn't been built yet, but the GL is only 200 hammers so we may want to consider it once we've gotten closer to the early BCs...the Oracle will likely get built somewhere in the next 25 turns and the Lighthouse will probably be the 3rd or 4th wonder built. I proposed Masonry before IW because it probably isn't very expensive by now and would allow us to be ready to build it when needed along with allowing us to quarry that stone.
Sam_Yeager
Another Original Geezer
Binary research is switching between 0% and 100% research e.g. at present 100% research would cost us 3 gold whereas if we switch to 0% research for a turn that would give us 5 or turns at 100% at current costs. In reality once Coppertownski is founded we will probably get less turns than that at 100%. As time goes on it may be only one or two turns at 100% to each 0% turn.
I'm not against the GL somewhat later but we just don't have enough productive cities at present. Masonry will be 7 turns at 100% currently and I think I would rather devote those turns to IW first. Other team members may well disagree with me.
EDIT: Whilst looking for Dagnabit's clam and fish
I toggled the bare map on and noticed a purple border to the NW of the Great Unknown sign. Romans?On another subject I think the reason we haven't seen too many AI yet is because we've probably got most of the land and they're all squashed in. Most likely in land that's not too brilliant.
I'm with Sam on not building lighthouse, and on going to binary research. I think the risks of starting but not getting the lighthouse are too big, and the resources devoted to building it will set back our development in other important ways. If we are going to go for an early wonder, the Colossus might be a better bet as we have some chance to focus our research towards it, plus we have copper to help build it. Great Library would be good too if we get literature early enough and we can find some marble.
Personally I'd prefer not to prioritize a granary in Moscow, simply build it when we find Moscow needs some time to grow again after a poprush and there's nothing more urgent we need (workboat/galley are urgent right now). I know the granary will give a big improvement in poprushing frequency after it's built, but I don't want anything to unnecessarily delay the next settler or two.
I'd also be opposed to building any libraries at this point (other possibly than in St. Petersburg because St. P is too shield-poor to want to build much other than buildings). IMO while libraries do increase science output immediately, I think that right now getting settlers out as fast as possible and cottaging the new cities to get max cottages as fast as possible (plus working lots of gems) will have have a much bigger impact on science in the medium and long terms than anything else (even if it causes a short-term dip). (Plus the other advantages of making us more powerful and grabbing the land/fogbusting).
The only reason I'd build libraries between now and when the land-grab is complete (or we have 8ish cities) is to give cities a chance to grow between building settlers/workers, if there's nothing else useful to build, or to grow borders once we're near to obelisks being obsolete.
ISTM the biggest problem we've got now for science isn't lack of libraries, it's the fact that we have only one working cottage (and no working gems). The sooner we can get that number up substantially the better.
Personally I'd prefer not to prioritize a granary in Moscow, simply build it when we find Moscow needs some time to grow again after a poprush and there's nothing more urgent we need (workboat/galley are urgent right now). I know the granary will give a big improvement in poprushing frequency after it's built, but I don't want anything to unnecessarily delay the next settler or two.
I'd also be opposed to building any libraries at this point (other possibly than in St. Petersburg because St. P is too shield-poor to want to build much other than buildings). IMO while libraries do increase science output immediately, I think that right now getting settlers out as fast as possible and cottaging the new cities to get max cottages as fast as possible (plus working lots of gems) will have have a much bigger impact on science in the medium and long terms than anything else (even if it causes a short-term dip). (Plus the other advantages of making us more powerful and grabbing the land/fogbusting).
The only reason I'd build libraries between now and when the land-grab is complete (or we have 8ish cities) is to give cities a chance to grow between building settlers/workers, if there's nothing else useful to build, or to grow borders once we're near to obelisks being obsolete.
ISTM the biggest problem we've got now for science isn't lack of libraries, it's the fact that we have only one working cottage (and no working gems). The sooner we can get that number up substantially the better.
EDIT: Whilst looking for Dagnabit's clam and fish
Well spotted Sam!
I've had the game open for the last half hour and still would've missed that. I guess that means The Great Unknown isn't ours for the taking after all. 
That leaves the land SW of St. P as land that we haven't seen any evidence of being inhabited yet. I tried to read the binary research strategy and still am confused. I understand that we apparently still generate 1 or two beakers at 0 research rate so by going between 0-100% when we can no longer keep research at 100% we gain a couple beakers overall. So do we go 100% until research is going to go to 90% then go to 0% for a few turns- then back to 100% for a few turns OR do we stay at 0% ubtil we have enough to fully research the tech at 100%
I don't think any AI are going to declare war for a little while yet, although it'd certainly be good to get more defence. Barbs will only come from the FOW, so that means the most likely place they will originate is the land SW of St. P, so it may be worth keeping our galley hovering round there.
Actually, I have to admit defending fishing nets is something I have a lot of trouble with, I'm still not sure what the best approach is. Even with the defence bonus, one isolated galley still stands a pretty good chance of being killed by a barb galley. I've had games where a barb galley has killed mine, and then fully healed by the time I've been able to get another one there and so immediately killed my replacement galley too.
I think two galleys near to each other are hugely more effective than one galley (you're almost guaranteed to kill a single invader), but obviously that takes more hammers to build
You stay at 0% until you have enough gold in the bank to complete your current research item at 100%.
btw ISTM not losing the beakers from rounding errors is about the least significant benefit in the long run, though it may shave a turn or so in the early game. More important is that you can delay choosing your research tech until the last possible minute - more time to change your mind according to circumstances, and if you're doing things to increase your research bonus (eg. meeting other civs or building libraries etc.) more of your research gets done on turns when you have a bigger bonus. Doing it that way also means you typically have more money in the bank - a good insurance for buying units if you need to, once you have democracy, though it carries the disadvantage that you're more likely to have AIs demanding gold off you.
Agree so where is our next City. On the island or do we get adventurous and head sw? I would try and do both getting the first settler for the island (cow) and after a quick trip with galley w/sw to see if there is anything for us, coming back for settler/chariot??
Sam_Yeager
Another Original Geezer
So do we go 100% until research is going to go to 90% then go to 0% for a few turns- then back to 100% for a few turns OR do we stay at 0% ubtil we have enough to fully research the tech at 100%
Personally I refer the first strategy, especially whilst we have virtually nil science in our cities. As we don't yet have currency then running a surplus is of no benefit for anything else.
Htadus
A and L's dad
Got it. Will play before saturday....ready now but need input.
I am guessing it is not possible to add workers to cities.
However, for the records, my preferance for the copper town is Thrallia's. Basically the reason is, this is a long term game and eventually we will be able to irrigate some of those tiles once we know CS and we can build a lighthouse(?) to use coast tiles to keep the city growing. We can use all 3 gem sites.....eventually. Its all about gold. In the interim we build units, rax and a Lib .
Any way.. following is a summary of what I gather we need to do.
Techs. After writing we go for IW since we want to wait until we meet more civs to trade before going for Alpha.
BTW I do not see the need for binary(on/off) research since no beaker are loss due to overflow and X amount of beakers area still X amount regardless of how you get it, unless the cost drop due to AI learning it. But, I will be happy to do so since I can see no harm coming from it.
Cap: After the warrior + 1 turn pop rush a workboat or worker. I prefer worker. We could use a highway crew...prep next city site....chop...cottage.......so many to list.
SP: Pop rush oblisk before growth...now. Start Grainary.
Ctown: Warrior?
Anyway. Please add to this.
I am guessing it is not possible to add workers to cities.
However, for the records, my preferance for the copper town is Thrallia's. Basically the reason is, this is a long term game and eventually we will be able to irrigate some of those tiles once we know CS and we can build a lighthouse(?) to use coast tiles to keep the city growing. We can use all 3 gem sites.....eventually. Its all about gold. In the interim we build units, rax and a Lib
.Any way.. following is a summary of what I gather we need to do.
Techs. After writing we go for IW since we want to wait until we meet more civs to trade before going for Alpha.
BTW I do not see the need for binary(on/off) research since no beaker are loss due to overflow and X amount of beakers area still X amount regardless of how you get it, unless the cost drop due to AI learning it. But, I will be happy to do so since I can see no harm coming from it.
Cap: After the warrior + 1 turn pop rush a workboat or worker. I prefer worker. We could use a highway crew...prep next city site....chop...cottage.......so many to list.
SP: Pop rush oblisk before growth...now. Start Grainary.
Ctown: Warrior?
Anyway. Please add to this.
Htadus
A and L's dad
Just for clarification lets vote on Ctown.
I vote for Thrallia's. Another reason is to have the western coast within our cultural border.
I vote for Thrallia's. Another reason is to have the western coast within our cultural border.
Correct
However, for the records, my preferance for the copper town is Thrallia's. Basically the reason is, this is a long term game and eventually we will be able to irrigate some of those tiles once we know CS and we can build a lighthouse(?) to use coast tiles to keep the city growing. We can use all 3 gem sites.....eventually. Its all about gold. In the interim we build units, rax and a Lib
We *can't* irrigate Coppertownski (until Biology). There's hills blocking the route to the fresh water.
Cap: After the warrior + 1 turn pop rush a workboat or worker. I prefer worker. We could use a highway crew...prep next city site....chop...cottage.......so many to list.
Don't poprush it just yet, do it in 5 turns time. Reason: Unless there's a dire emergency you should wait till the unhappiness from the previous poprush goes away, otherwise Moscow will have two unhappiness from the poprushing which'll *really* stunt its growth. The way to tell is to hover the mouse over the poprushing button. At the moment it's saying 20 turns unhappiness, it's usually 15. The extra 5 is overflow turns from the last poprush. When that button says 15 turns, then you poprush.
As for prepping next city, be careful: we haven't yet decided where the next city will be. You can't cottage outside cultural borders, and I'd oppose chopping jungle outside borders at this stage, coz you make the land more attractive for an AI to claim it. Building roads is OK but not a priority.
Yep. I agree with that
I'll vote for the fish spot. (I'm trying to avoid saying 'my' spot as that makes it sound like I might be only voting for it coz it was my suggestion. I'm voting for it because I believe it's better for our game. Really.
).I also vote for the fish spot...The food issue there is worse than I originally thought since it will be impossible to irrigate anything and all a lighthouse or pasute on the horse will do is give 2 food per tile. Thus, it will always grow slow and will always be stagnant in growth when we want it to work the copper.
The fish spot still gets 2 gems, gets more coastal commerce, and gives it enough extra food to grow fast or grow slow and work copper.
I definitely don't want to spend 7 turns researching Masonry at this point, IW is much more important...I had hoped it would be more like 3-4 turns now. It would be nice to have, but it would definitely be a huge disadvantage when we've only got one productive city. Perhaps if Coppertownski gets productive fast enough then we can afford to have Moscow or Coppertownski work on it...until then I'll hope for the Colossus and Great Library.
The fish spot still gets 2 gems, gets more coastal commerce, and gives it enough extra food to grow fast or grow slow and work copper.
I definitely don't want to spend 7 turns researching Masonry at this point, IW is much more important...I had hoped it would be more like 3-4 turns now. It would be nice to have, but it would definitely be a huge disadvantage when we've only got one productive city. Perhaps if Coppertownski gets productive fast enough then we can afford to have Moscow or Coppertownski work on it...until then I'll hope for the Colossus and Great Library.
I think we start an obelisk in Ctown. Once the worker pastures and roads the horses he will still only beable toroad the copper and adjacent hill waiting for culture to expand (apprx 25-30 turns). I'd like to get a worker first in Moscow (pop when current cruelty wears off) then workboat for St Pete. It should be done about the time borders expand. I think there is time to chop a galley or maybe build a chariot after that(I prefer galley) before building the fish boat for Coppertownski. Then we need to seriously look at chopping a couple of settlers and another worker (and hope the AI will leave us alone for a few more years.
Sam_Yeager
Another Original Geezer
@Htadus
Coppertownski - I vote for DynamicSpirit's spot. Also go for obelisk as first build there. Btw move the warrior first before the settler in case there are are barbs hidden by fog.
Moscow - Agree with DynamicSpirit that there's no need to pop rush the workboat until the unhappiness wears off. I'm not sure there is a consensus what to build after that. Ideas folks? I know galley and library have been mentioned.
SP - Agree with pop rush of obelisk, especially since I suggested it earlier. Granary's already part built so after obelish SP will switch to it automatically.
Tech - I think there's already general agreement for IW.
Exploration - Explore NW of Great Unknown sign with galley, after transporting worker to Coppertownski, as there is a civ there.
EDIT:
I'm not so much bothered by beaker loss as trying to maintain max research rate. At present one turn of 0% research will allow 5 to 6 of research at 100% although that will drop after Coppertownski is founded. Hopefully we'll still get 3 to 4 turns at 100% (crosses fingers).
Coppertownski - I vote for DynamicSpirit's spot. Also go for obelisk as first build there. Btw move the warrior first before the settler in case there are are barbs hidden by fog.
Moscow - Agree with DynamicSpirit that there's no need to pop rush the workboat until the unhappiness wears off. I'm not sure there is a consensus what to build after that. Ideas folks? I know galley and library have been mentioned.
SP - Agree with pop rush of obelisk, especially since I suggested it earlier.
Granary's already part built so after obelish SP will switch to it automatically.Tech - I think there's already general agreement for IW.
Exploration - Explore NW of Great Unknown sign with galley, after transporting worker to Coppertownski, as there is a civ there.
EDIT:
Htadus said:
I'm not so much bothered by beaker loss as trying to maintain max research rate. At present one turn of 0% research will allow 5 to 6 of research at 100% although that will drop after Coppertownski is founded. Hopefully we'll still get 3 to 4 turns at 100% (crosses fingers).
in Moscow, after the Workboat, I think we all decided we wanted another workboat and a worker. After that I think we need another galley because we could get OB with people by then so we can explore more and faster. Perhaps a library after that so that Moscow can grow a bit from all the pop rushing and worker building.
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