SGOTM 03 - Geezers

[Dagnabit]

St P does have a granary. Lighthouse would be the next thing on the list to build. However, I've just noticed it's still suffering unhappiness from the previous poprush - I think that means poprushing now would be a bad idea. Sorry, I didn't notice that before. What we could do is to wait 5 turns till it grows again, then change to a settler or worker. That way we take advantage of the thing where unhappy people don't eat any food if you're building a settler/worker.

Should have mentioned that I was waiting for 1 unhappiness to expire before poprushing Lib.

btw the worker is currently set to build a farm. It'd be better if he was set to clear the jungle, then build a farm afterwards, because then we get the benefit of cleared jungle (a 3-food tile) as soon as it's clear instead of only after the farm is built.

Good idea. Another tactic learned (Now if I can only remember it in the future.

I agree. Not only that but, we can build the colossus quickly coz we have copper, and metal casting opens up forges (= happiness + engineers). I say, research MC, not literature, next.

Agree but if we are going war mongering we also may need to contemplate horsebackriding for horse archers or even construction for cats.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

I wouldn't do direct ferrying from Coppertownski. I'd have one galley ferrying Cski->St P and another galley ferrying from East of St P to near Sparta. (That obviously leaves Lodestone City out, but the Lodestone could be building a 3rd galley if we want it to contribute to the war effort )

Excellent idea DynamicSpirit. Now why didn't I think of that earlier.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

• You didn't say what kind of terrain Piscator had in his game. Looking at our 'island' all that grassland looks perfect for science farms but doesn't do much for production.

Sorry, I probably should've clarified that I envisaged conquering as meaning that we spend a large part of the game at war, always trying to expand. In other words, if we go down that route, after we've conquered Alex, we check start thinking about conquering Mao or someone as soon as our economy will allow it (As opposed to the peaceful route where, after conquering Alex or perhaps Mao, we might think 'OK we're big enough now. No more wars unless we have to'). I didn't mean that we start having every city build nothing but units, the way you would if you were going for early conquest. So I think we'll be using our core land for science farms irrespective of whether we go conquering. Either way, we need as much science as possible . If we do go conquering, then, as our battlefronts move further away from Muskovy Isle, there'll be progressively less motivation to build units in Muskovy anyway since they'll take too long to get anywhere useful anyway.

I think we have 'insufficient data' to make a decision at present. I believe we should prioritise:

1. Killing off Alex.
2. Building up our infrastructure and military
3. Getting Optics so we can find out where everyone is and who they are

This isn't meant to be a complete rebuttal. Neither do I rule out your suggestion. I just honestly think we need more info, a solid infrastructure and better production before we can sensibly decide if it's best to go down that route.

Sure, understood, and I quite agree that we don't have to decide right now, and those are valid points. The reason I brought it up now is I thought it'd be good to start thinking ahead about it. (Also, it does have some marginal impact on decisions coming up, eg. courthouses and colossus are relatively more useful if we have a bigger civ. OTOH forges are more useful if we are staying small).

 

[Dagnabit]

I wouldn't do direct ferrying from Coppertownski. I'd have one galley ferrying Cski->St P and another galley ferrying from East of St P to near Sparta. (That obviously leaves Lodestone City out, but the Lodestone could be building a 3rd galley if we want it to contribute to the war effort )

You are assuming we give up scouting the rest of Alex's coast, which was stated as necessary a few turns ago. I agree with your use of the 2 galleys in letting the troops go overland, but it hasn't been practical. Remember one galley was transporting Chariot to Lodestone not many turns ago, so the only way to get the 2 axes from Coppertownski to Alex in a timely manner was transport them with the remaining galley.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

You are assuming we give up scouting the rest of Alex's coast, which was stated as necessary a few turns ago. I agree with your use of the 2 galleys in letting the troops go overland, but it hasn't been practical. Remember one galley was transporting Chariot to Lodestone not many turns ago, so the only way to get the 2 axes from Coppertownski to Alex in a timely manner was transport them with the remaining galley.

Yeah, you're right, I agree we need more galleys anyway....

 

[Dagnabit]

I don't know who suggested it but I agree we can take the 2 newly reporting axes and put them on the East side of Sparta and cut off Reinforcements.2 swords should be enough to finish the job and should arrive after the present galley scouts the remainder of Alex. (There is that need for another galley plea again ) Then if we think we should take Sparta, we better be able to hold it as the shrunken culture will be a big invite for Mao to step into. (Settling? or trying to take sparta from us?)

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Had a look at the game. We can either send the nearest galley to Coppertownski to pick up the sword and then pick up the axe that seems to be making it's way down from Moscow or else we can pick up the excess chariot in SP and the axe from Moscow. The latter is quicker although the chariot won't be as good as an axe. If the former then we can pick up the excess chariot in SP for guard duty in Coppertownski.

Either way there's probably time for the other galley to do some initial scouting before coming back.

 

[markh]

Had a look at the save. Next player please stop the chopping at Lodestone, otherwise the hammers are lost or will they go into the next build ? . The chop will finish next IBT and the Obelisk will finish in 2. Apart from that it looks great.

I forgot, how can I see how many "unhappy" turns are left after whipping ?

I checked on MC or lit. MC will take quite some time, but I would go for it. The colossus is just too tempting for this game.

 

[Htadus]

Turn Plan

Science: Metal Casting at highest possible science rate.

Diplo: No OB untill we found the last city. Wait to attack Alex. Block reinforcement route. Pick up sword from Cski and the axe near StP.

Workers: Stop the Chop in L city. Chop forest first at rice tiles.

Cities: Wait to rush Lib in StP or use the two citz to rush a settler? I prefer to start a settler and rush it. Start a Sword in CSky. Should we build a rax in L town?

Please feel free to add to this. I will play in about 5 hours from this post; when I get home.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Turn Plan

Science: Metal Casting at highest possible science rate.

Diplo: No OB untill we found the last city. Wait to attack Alex. Block reinforcement route. Pick up sword from Cski and the axe near StP.

Workers: Stop the Chop in L city. Chop forest first at rice tiles.

Cities: Wait to rush Lib in StP or use the two citz to rush a settler? I prefer to start a settler and rush it. Start a Sword in CSky. Should we build a rax in L town?

Please feel free to add to this. I will play in about 5 hours from this post; when I get home.

All looks fine to me. (It's jungle not forest on the rice tiles but it's the same idea ). And I'm happy with axe in Lodestone City. Since it's some galley turns from the rest of our civ, it'll have to supply its own garrison to some extent.

 

[Dagnabit]

No mention of any galleys. We had better forget any push at alex without. In my experience with these water maps, if you don't have a navy you aren't going very far. (Remember I am a Navy man )

On a second note I think we can take Sparta with the 4 axes. Math tells me two strikes by the newly promoted axes should at least bring the defenders to 1.5. That times .5 city and .25 defence means our last two axes should face 2.625 archers. If they are 5.5 (city attack 1) they should have a 2-1 advantage. (Not quite sure how that equates to %.

 

[Dagnabit]

second post- This is related to my earlier turns. I found it extremely difficult moving troops.(hence more galleys), We also have no road between the western shore of coppertowski and where we need to transport trops to Alex land. It takes at least 4 moves. I don't think we have the infrastructure to take a war past our mainland. ( I know we can take Sparta- but I am not sure we can keep it) To finish off Alex without compromising our research (which is slowing to 50%) we need to 1. know what his defenses are in Capital. 2.Know if sufficient troops can be brought(without crippling economy) and 3.Is Mao going to support Alex. In my few games with Mao it doesn't matter weather you gift him stuff or try and be his friend he will turn on you. I think Mao is a more important AI in our discussion right now than Alex. (Paranoia?? )

 

[Dagnabit]

More Paranoia before I crash ( 70's term, ie sleep ) We do nothave a sufficient empire to challenge Mao. he is a point leader which means (we should assume) a tech leader. He has sailing (he has driven his galleys around)and we should assume he has at least one second tier troop. Horse Archer etc. If he has teched his way towards construction he could even have cats. We can do OK with swords and axes but not sure we will prevail without our own horse archers/cats. Just my insecurities speaking!

 

[Thrallia]

I don't think Alex will be able to get help from Mao...Mao doens't have alphabet(nor does Alex), so he can't be bribed with techs, no one has currency, so gold is out, and he'll soon lose those valuable resources that Mao likes so much. In my experience an AI won't declare war without some significant incentive, and rarely ever by this point in time.

Htadus, I like your plan except I would prefer building galleys in Lodestone City, we will need them to support Lodestone and Alex's lands, and we'll want to send a couple out exploring anyway soon. With galleys building there we can just send troops over there if needed, although I believe it already has a small garrison.

 

[Htadus]

Summary: Meet Egypt and Inca. Took Sparta with just the swordsman and one Axeman. Found another island SE of L City.


0235 BC (Turn 151): Stop the worker chopping in L city. Start hamlet on plains. Novgarod worker move to jungle. Galley scout Athens. It has 7 Archers (2 w/city defense and 2 w/star), 2 galleys and a settler. Move second galley to pick up ax. Promote two Axes and move to desert. Switch science to MC at 60% (32 turns @-4gpt)

IBT: Zzzz

0220 BC (Turn 152): Galley cont past athens, plunder fishing boat. Jules, Gandhi and Vicki has Priesthood. Vicki also know calander but not in the mood to trade and we do not want it either. She do not have Poly and Alpha and will trade priesthood for Alpha. Moved Axes to east for more fog busting. One Axe only have 20% chance if we attack now.

IBT: Zzzz

0205 BC (Turn 153): Cski:Sword>Sword, Ltown:Oblisk>Axe. 2 Axes fortify. Worker start to clear jungle. Change StP to settler so the chop and a pop rush will give us a settler in 7 turns.

IBT: Jules wanted OB and we declined. Vicki demanded Alpha and we declined. She think we are short sighted. Alex wanted peace and we declined.

0190 BC (Turn 154): Loaded both the sword and the axe on to a Galley. Other galley cont south around greek peninsula; plundering.

IBT: L City grow.

0175 BC (turn 155): We see parts of china.

IBT: Zzz

0160 BC (Turn 156): Cski: Sword>Galley. A Chinese galley is carrying an archer and a settler, heading north along the easern coast of Greece. We see a yellow border to east. Unload sword and the Axe. Chinese know construction.

IBT:Zzz

0145 BC (Turn 157): Meet Hatshepzut. She is annoyed with both Mao and Alex. She does not know any one else. We trade poly for Priesthood to the 3rd highest score civ. She is pleased now. Move attack team into place. Explorer Galley is continuing east. Other galley is going to pick up worker from L City.

IBT: Hatshepzut want to trade cow for iron. We decline.

0130 BC (Turn 158): Sword and a Axe take Sparta . Too easy. What is the catch? We meet Inca and he is mad at us for trading with Egypt. Ooops. He know Calander too.

IBT: A leader born far away. Don't remember the name.

0115 BC (Turn 159): Agh.. the chop goes to Moscow . Chinese Galley is near Sparta coast. We see another island south of L Town.

IBT: Zzz

0100 BC (Turn 160): Moscow: Lib>Axe. Loaded the L City worker on Galley. Explorer heading east. Worker available and I will stop here and let next player use the worker and change the build in Cap.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Geezers_SG003_BC0100_01.Civ4SavedGame

 

[Htadus]

I forgot to mention that the research cost went up to -13gpt when we captured Sparta.

Bloody screenshot dialogue box.....The Chinese Galley is located just above the letters "OK".

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Cool! We now have Sparta!

Shame Huayna is annoyed with us, we could really do with OB with him to move that galley on. We're going to need OB with either Hatty or Mao if that galley by Huayna is to continue exploring. (EDIT: We definitely don't want to OB Mao. His galley+settler is too close. Hatty should be safe as she doesn't seem to have any way to reach our land. OBing her will confirm her as friend as Huayna as enemy though).

If Athens has 7 archers in it then we don't have nearly enough forces to take it, and even if we did, we'd incur very heavy losses with our current tech abilities. Would we be better off just giving Alex peace and then leaving him alone? To be honest it doesn't look that good a city anyway. Other than having a slightly strategic location, it won't be useful for anything much except poprushing or as a possible GP farm. I'm not convinced I want it.

 

[markh]

Good going on Sparta. With these troops we should have a good defensive standing even if Mao gets interested now. Are the 7 archers still in Athens ? Htadus wrote that Alex had two galleys and a settler there. Maybe the galleys left loaded with the settler and archers. Next player should check that. That would make 4 defenders in Athens which is quite normal according to my experience. Anyway if we take Athens now and settle our last city on our island I fear our science going down too much, so making peace with Alex might be attractive.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

I think the trouble with making peace will be the continuing war weariness as well as Mao continuing to be unhappy with us. Frankly we're in no shape to withstand an invasion as things stand. We already have Vicky pretty unhappy with us.

I wonder if we can provide a bit of bait to to tempt Alex's archers out? The odd chariot perhaps? Obviously we need to get further forces over there before we try that.

In the end I think we need to finish off Alex. Whether or not we want to keep his cities is another matter. If necessary we can raze his city and maybe abandon the other.

 

[markh]

If necessary we can raze his city and maybe abandon the other.

No, we can't. The option is "No city razing". I think I mentioned this a few times.