SGOTM 03 - Geezers

[DynamicSpirit]

We need to decide what to research next. From the discussion so far and looking at the map, I think there are three main contenders:

1. Animal Husbandry.
This is based on the strategy of finding out where horses are, possibly using the cows, and heading towards open borders from writing.

Advantages:

• Gives us a reasonably quick path to writing.
• We find out where horses are to help plan future cities. (NB. This may be good for production, but arguably isn't as important from a military POV now we know we do in principle have copper available).
• We can use the cow to get a city with reasonable food/production, in particular to help pump out settlers.
• If horses are available, gives us much stronger defence once we've hooked them up (except we need the wheel too).

Disadvantages:

• If there's no horses on Muskovy Isle, we'll have partially wasted the research time.
• Even if there are horses, unless they are in Moscow's radius, we won't really be able to use the knowledge straight away. We'll get horse-riding in 14-15 turns, but won't build our settler for another 20-25 turns, and we've already earmarked the floodplains city site for him (unless we change our mind about where to put that city).
• It doesn't do anything to help future science.

2. Sailing
This is based on wanting to expand and find other civs.

Advantages:

• If we decide to do so, we can use it to start colonizing the Greco-Chines continent
• Gives us a quick route across to found a city by the copper (the alternative is about a 14-turn journey through the jungle)
• Allows us to start exploring with a vessel that can defend itself (or to defend our fishing nets)

Disadvantages:

• Doesn't do much for science (may help a bit to use coastal tiles, but only if we build lighthouses)
• As with AH, we're getting the knowledge before we can use it. 14-15 turns, some time before our first settler is due.

3. Wheel (then pottery)
The science path.

Advantages:

• Allows us to build cottages, which means further science starts coming more quickly.
• The timing is almost perfect for St. Petersburg, if we stick to our plans for where to found it. We'll have pottery in around 20 turns, a few turns before the settler roles off the production line. We can therefore cottage that flood-plains tile straight away (if we have a worker)

Disadvantages:

• We still have nothing but warriors for defence (but with cottages we can get archery more quickly)

Based on that reasoning, my vote goes for the wheel.

I'll hold off till later before I start my turnset to see what other people think, since the first thing I need to do is choose the research tech.

 

[Thrallia]

First thought is we should switch to Slavery when the workboat is finished, it'll enable us to whip things out and it's going to be awhile before we get a settler out right now.

I haven't done the math, but if you think worker>settler with chopping the forested hills is about the same then I'm all for that. As for science, I'd tend toward AH out of those three, but then I always seem to get pottery very late compared to other civs, and if we have a worker it is useful to have it since Petersburg will be able to work it and its ocean resources pretty quickly(it may actually be a better site once it hits size 3 to pump workers/settlers from)

Thus, I'll vote the Wheel, because we won't be able to really use AH yet anyway, and Pottery leads to Writing as well, and I think we need writing early for libraries and for OB.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

@DynamicSpirit

I agree with going for Wheel first since even if we have horses within the fat cross we would need to connect them. BTW we don't need HBR to use the horses. Chariots would do just as well.

After Wheel I can see the point of Pottery next. However I think we should aim for AH next. As far as Sailing goes we will need Writing before we can get OBs so workboats may be only of limited use. With our virtually non existent military I'm not keen on agreeing OBs before we can beef up the military. Otherwise we will probably be hanging out a big sign saying 'Conquer us'.

(since we are alone on our island and there's very little space for barbs I don't think they'll be a problem or that we'll need more than a couple early warriors)

I disagree that there's little space for barbs. If we have space for five or more cities then there's plenty of room for barbs to spawn. Whilst they should not be as bad as our last game they will still spawn. Especially since we have so few units to fog bust. I think we also need to remember that our military units don't start with combat 1 this time. On that subject I think we should pull back our one and only warrior towards Moscow so that he can fog bust N of Moscow.

 

[Dagnabit]

I agree that Wheel should be next to support StPete. (worker,chop settler) I still think Sailing,IW should be next. Reasoning: (from a possibly flawed noobie perspective ) 1. Other than Barbs I don't think we are in immediate danger of attack. 2. We can get the copper hooked up if needed before we can make use of horse so think we should wait on that tech route. 3. We have time to settle our island and can take any city that the AI attempts to settle on it with not much effort. 4. We are going to have to get off this island soon! before we go stir crazy 5. Jungle, Jungle, Jungle= IW, IW, IW

I think we will want a foothold (Greco-Chin?) before we settle most of our island. It will take some time to get most of it cleared and productive. We need some hammers somewhere also. Don't shoot me if you think I'm nuts

 

[Sam_Yeager]

2. We can get the copper hooked up if needed before we can make use of horse so think we should wait on that tech route.

The trouble with the copper is that only the third (small) city will be able to make use of it as far as I am aware. If we have horses nearby i.e. in our fat cross then we can have Moscow and SP building chariots.

4. We are going to have to get off this island soon! before we go stir crazy 5. Jungle, Jungle, Jungle= IW, IW, IW

I think we will want a foothold (Greco-Chin?) before we settle most of our island. It will take some time to get most of it cleared and productive. We need some hammers somewhere also. Don't shoot me if you think I'm nuts

How do we make our island productive if we lack the majority of worker techs? The same applies to cities on other islands.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The trouble with the copper is that only the third (small) city will be able to make use of it as far as I am aware. If we have horses nearby i.e. in our fat cross then we can have Moscow and SP building chariots.

Once we have sailing, the access to copper will run across the water. However since St. Petersburg is rather hammer-challenged, I wouldn't be surprised if we end up wanting to build most of our military units in the copper city anyway, and ferrying them to where they are needed, while St. Petersburg builds the libraries and markets etc. that it will require to make max. use of its commerce.

How do we make our island productive if we lack the majority of worker techs? The same applies to cities on other islands.

I think the issue is that even knowing all the worker techs, there's very little you can do to make most of our island productive in terms of hammers. That may not be the case for other islands (on the greco-chinese one I see plains and a river in Thrallia's screenshot - so it's looking hopeful).

 

[Dagnabit]

Question? Trying to do some numbers to see what happens with our research and growth over next 20+ turns. The save shows sailing needing 223 Beakers and 16 turns. The beaker per turn on the City view shows 11. That says to me 21 turns. What am I missing? Until this confused me I was convinced we should switch to a sea tile (2 commerce) after workboat to take a turn off of Sailing if that was our next tech. Not in a hurry to build a warrior and don't know whether growth is preferable to tech at this point. Any discussion would be appreciated.

 

[Thrallia]

The main reason I'm desiring sailign early isn't for the galleys, it is so that our copper city would be connected to Petersburg and Moscow, and so that we can build a lighthouse in Moscow and Petersburg...even if we don't research Masonry for awhile(required for GL), a lighthouse is a worthwhile investment for the bonus food because it would enable us to grow the cities faster and/or pump out workers/settlers faster.

I do think we should take a long term look at going for the Lighthouse too, it would be very beneficial on this map for the rest of our game and we should be able to build it as late as 500BC as long as we are prepared for it.

 

[Htadus]

Ok DynamicSpirit, now I am with you on Wheel. If we are going to have a worker around, he/she can do some roading when nothing is available.

I still think Sailing is extreamly important for the reason of establishing cities in more productive lands. We do not need OB to go get oceanfront cities and possibly steal workers from far away lands.

From what I noticed, we only have 4 city sites that will be functional without IW. However we should insert a needed and cheap landscape tech in between each of these to die for techs.

BTW how do you get rid of the "possible city site" label from the save?

As for horses being within the fat cross. Unless Gythaar was feeling ill when he did the map.....

Actually I hope I am wrong.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Ok, if I understand the discussion correctly the consensus is to change Sailing to Wheel. After that I'm unsure if the path is Sailing->Pottery or Pottery->Sailing. I think it's the former.

Buildwise the aim is Workboat->Worker->Settler? If so I recommend that we switch from the stone (1F2H) to the 2F1G tile to the NE on the 4th turn. It delays the workboat by 1 turn but allows us to grow Moscow to 3. We can then switch to Slavery and then start the worker.

Oh btw can we please bring our only military unit back towards Moscow please. Running light on military is one thing. Having no military within 5 tiles of our capital is just asking for trouble.

 

[markh]

Well, it has started. Looks good.

Unfortunately I cannot have a look at the game as I am renovating my flat this weekend.

Sailing would be nice to connect the copper city immediately and enabling us to build a lighthouse for faster growth, but without looking at the save this is just a feeling.

Roster:

Thrallia - got us started
Simon - UP !
Sam - on deck
Mark
Dagnabit
Htadus

 

[DynamicSpirit]

OK. I've played up to turn 50 to give a round number (though slightly boobed by moving the units on turn 50 so turn 51 is the first one Sam will play. Sorry!)





Current Situation.
We can forget about a foothold on Greco-Roman lands - Greeks already there . Maybe the Great Unknown continent will be a better bet for early expansion? The Greeks must've gone for AH as their first tech as they had a cow already hooked up when our workboat passed by. (Note: Greeks start knowing fishing. Thanks, Gyathaar!).

In terms of fogbusting, I'm trying to move the units so we have the entire area near Moscow, plus the copper, fogbusted. A couple more units and we should have practically the entire island fogbusted, which makes defence easier. Note however, the single tile of St. Petersburg is in the FOW. We need to deal with that before we can take a settler there. We should be OK for city defence at the moment as barbs can't enter cultural borders for a while longer.

The Worker is about to be built. I suggest slipping in building another warrior before building the settler (I think if we immediately tell the worker to mine the first hill rather than clear forest, it'll take him longer to do that than the time to build the warrior so the hammers will still go to the settler)

I added my recommendation for the copper city and reworded some of the signs so as the game goes we can see who's recommending what ;-)

Events

• Turn 33. Start moving scout back. My reasoning: Swap scout with a warrior, so we keep permanent watch on the copper site (it'll be hugely embarrassing to have a barb city appear there). But since whoever is keeping watch there has nowhere to run to if attacked, it needs to be a warrior that has some defence against non-animal barbs. The scout is better off fogbusting near a city where he does have somewhere to run to).
• Turn 33. Start researching Wheel
• Turn 35. Scout attacked by panther. Down to 0.5 health.
• Turn 36. Workboat built. There's 4 turns till Moscow hits size 3, I use those turns to take the workboat out to look bit more at the Greco-Chinese lands while building a warrior in Moscow.
• Turn 40. Moscow hits size 3. Since there's only two turns till the warrior is built, I decide to let it finish before swapping to worker.
• Turn 44. Wheel discovered. I go for pottery next (12 turns)
• Turn 48. We are now at the point where we can poprush the worker. (First turn where it's only cost 1 pop to build). I decide not to becaus worker is only 3 turns away anyway and it'll cost 1 turn to revolt, and leave us size 2.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Geezers_SG003_BC2500_01.Civ4SavedGame

 

[DynamicSpirit]

@Dagnabit: I don't think time to research is calculated solely as research cost/beakers. There's some bonus factor that comes into it that eg. makes it cheaper to research techs that lots of civs you are in contact with already know, or where you know all the prerequisites for it. I've never found this info in the game itself but it's been discussed in the forums.

@Thrallia: Lighthouse=90 hammers. Assuming size 4 city still working the clam we will get 6 hammers/turn so 15 turns to build. It'll add two 'hammers'/turn to settler production, saving I think 1 turn on a worker and 1-2 turns on a settler.

@Htadus: Changing/removing signs is in the global view. The leftmost of the menu options in the bottom right of the screen (forgot what it's called) lets you add/delete labels.

@Thrallia: I agree connecting the copper city with the other cities is a good reason for having sailing (besides that it'll be almost quicker to build a galley and ferry the settler across than to walk him there!). ISTM that's not very urgent at the moment as it's going to be at least 30-40 turns before we have the copper city running and the copper hooked up anyway.

 

[Dagnabit]

@Htadus: Changing/removing signs is in the global view. The leftmost of the menu options in the bottom right of the screen (forgot what it's called) lets you add/delete labels.

Alt-S also brings up box for labels. Click on square; type comment; Alt-S to turn off

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Turn 33. Start moving scout back. My reasoning: Swap scout with a warrior, so we keep permanent watch on the copper site (it'll be hugely embarrassing to have a barb city appear there). But since whoever is keeping watch there has nowhere to run to if attacked, it needs to be a warrior that has some defence against non-animal barbs. The scout is better off fogbusting near a city where he does have somewhere to run to).

I can understand the reasoning but why move the scout before the warrior gets there? Let's just hope there isn't a barb city by the time the warrior gets there.

EDIT:

The Worker is about to be built. I suggest slipping in building another warrior before building the settler

Sounds good to me.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

I've had an initial look at the game and these are my thoughts for my turn.

1. There's rarely a good time to switch civics, particularly when it costs turns, but I propose to switch to Slavery on my pre-turn and get it out of the way.
2. Techs: Complete Pottery. Start Sailing. After that I propose Writing so that we can get some libraries.
3. Builds: Warrior->Settler->Galley/Workboat.
4. Worker actions: Chop the two hills by Moscow. Connect SP to Moscow.

I think we would need at least two or three more warriors to fogbust the entire island which I don't think is justified. Besides which, barbs are good for XP.

I think the above plan should take up my turn. However please tell me if I've overlooked something. Especially on tech proposals.

Warning!
AlanH has issued a very strong warning against gaining pre-knowledge in the maintenance thread. I'm pretty sure none of us are guilty of this but I'm mentioning it to remind everyone.

EDIT: Ideas for S.Petes builds? Provisionally I think Granary for whipping efficiency.

 

[Dagnabit]

I've had an initial look at the game and these are my thoughts for my turn.

1. There's rarely a good time to switch civics, particularly when it costs turns, but I propose to switch to Slavery on my pre-turn and get it out of the way.
2. Techs: Complete Pottery. Start Sailing. After that I propose Writing so that we can get some libraries.
3. Builds: Warrior->Settler->Galley/Workboat.
4. Worker actions: Chop the two hills by Moscow. Connect SP to Moscow.

I think we would need at least two or three more warriors to fogbust the entire island which I don't think is justified. Besides which, barbs are good for XP.
I think the above plan should take up my turn. However please tell me if I've overlooked something. Especially on tech proposals.

I think it is a good plan. The worker is going to be busy for awhile. After chopping the two hills should he cottage StPete floodplain before mining?

I Like Dynamic Spirits Location for Coppertownski because it picks up the fish. It does however leave copper outside cultural boarder necessitating library(writing) or obolisk(meditation)-about 15turns plus mining time. (Assuming we transport worker by galley)Can we delay that long to get metal or Settle Thrallia's original spot?

 

[Sam_Yeager]

I think it is a good plan. The worker is going to be busy for awhile. After chopping the two hills should he cottage StPete floodplain before mining?

Well by the time the worker's done the chopping and roading it'll be somebody else's turn.

I Like Dynamic Spirits Location for Coppertownski because it picks up the fish. It does however leave copper outside cultural boarder necessitating library(writing) or obolisk(meditation)-about 15turns plus mining time. (Assuming we transport worker by galley)Can we delay that long to get metal or Settle Thrallia's original spot?

I actually prefer a third location. I'll put up yet another sign.

 

[Thrallia]

my only input at this time is that I would recommend waiting to revolt to slavery until the turn the worker finishes, so that it doesn't get delayed by the revolution and can go ahead and start moving to chop stuff.

I'd also agree with the tech order, finish Pottery>Sailing>Writing

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I can understand the reasoning but why move the scout before the warrior gets there? Let's just hope there isn't a barb city by the time the warrior gets there.

Sorry, that was slightly muddled thinking on my part . I think I was thinking, don't want to leave no units at all near Moscow - but of course it doesn't matter yet coz barbs can't enter cultural borders yet. I don't think they can found cities yet either, I'm not sure what date they can do that. But it would be wise to get the warrior to the copper.