hmm...500AD and know all your enemies? I can't imagine anyone except maybe the CFRs and Peanut would qualify for that by that date.
I think that obviously Izzy and Toku are lost causes. Mao may not be since he declared on us, rather than the reverse. Huayna likely is, cause he generally doesn't ever like you. Perhaps we should indeed look into a permanent alliance with Gandhi. I recall from the SGOTM1 team threads that neither us or Gandhi would be allowed to be #1 in the world in power for that to happen though. DPs with both Vicky and Julius would also be smart, as it would assure us of their votes pretty much.
The hardest part of the victory, I think, will be in making sure we are against an unpopular opponent. Toku and Izzy would be best for that(Huayna would be good too), but as long as the people we are pleased or higher with don't like our opponent, we'll be good.
Ideally, we would build the UN and get the diplo victory vote to go before people start switching to free religion. That way, since we are a secular power we would be able to take advantage of the sectarian conflicts to gain points on almost anyone that is our opponent.
I think that obviously Izzy and Toku are lost causes. Mao may not be since he declared on us, rather than the reverse. Huayna likely is, cause he generally doesn't ever like you. Perhaps we should indeed look into a permanent alliance with Gandhi. I recall from the SGOTM1 team threads that neither us or Gandhi would be allowed to be #1 in the world in power for that to happen though. DPs with both Vicky and Julius would also be smart, as it would assure us of their votes pretty much.
I can't remember if the bit about being number one in power only applied to DPs. Of course we don't necessarily have to go as far as PA. Having friendly relations and/or DPs might be enough even if not quite so certain.
The hardest part of the victory, I think, will be in making sure we are against an unpopular opponent. Toku and Izzy would be best for that(Huayna would be good too), but as long as the people we are pleased or higher with don't like our opponent, we'll be good.
Assuming we build the UN then I think our opponent is the civ with the most pop after us (currently Vicki). I think Toku is more known for having large amounts of military rather than pop.
Ideally, we would build the UN and get the diplo victory vote to go before people start switching to free religion. That way, since we are a secular power we would be able to take advantage of the sectarian conflicts to gain points on almost anyone that is our opponent.
To get the 65% or so needed for a diplo victory we may well need more than Ghandhi, Julius & Vicki and ourselves. In that case any other civ is likely to be another religion so we may find that free religion is to our advantage.
However we need to know who else is out there and how much they like us. One of the reasons I raised the subject was because of the DynamicSpirit's suggestion that we trade with Huayna.
A just a general observation about the Collosus gold from coast tiles, not very usefull during the early game when you are building units. By the time you can use it, we learn Astronomy. Not a very good deal. On the other hand the GLH payf for itself in the long run. <Not applicable for Pangea maps >
I agree with Sam we should be careful how much rushing we do. Not just St Pete but the other cities as well. They are just starting to grow well and we still have happiness-
btw now we have drama, we can make 430 gold immediately by selling it to Gandhi and Vicky. That'll let us run research on 100% for a while and would let us get to machinery in 7 turns. If we do that I'd suggest researching machinery rather than compass as we probably won't be able to trade compass for anything, but we should be able to trade machinery for a couple of other techs, including compass and (hopefully) theology. Possibly music too. We can also get another 110 gold by selling Huayna drama, if we're willing to trade with him.
I like the idea of taking gold at this point and trying to get as many techs as we can. If we go for machinery first I most definately want compass to be a priority for trade. If we can get to optics quickly and take a caravel East we might still be in the running for the circumnavigation bonus. At the very least we should find our last AI's and formalize our Diplo strategy
Sorry for the delay team but I just saw that the Scientist Francis Bacon can learn philo which is not a needed tech, but Vicky know theology which is along our ultimate tech path. I would like to learn Philo (bulb does not say an X number of flasks will go toward Philo) and see what we can get with the combination before doing all the trades. Since it is of great importance, I would like to get others input.
Unfortunately this also mean I wont be able to play my turns for about another 24-hrs.
@Sam_Yeager:
At Bjing, the theater will cost 2 citz for 15 turns which mean it has no unhappiness from previous and the city has 14 with 8 .
As for Sparta, 90 hammers @9 hpt will take 10 turns to build a rax unless I rush after 5 turns. I am assuming/remembering we get 45 hammers per rush.
Market in StP will do wonders for us and so will the LH. Rushing there should not cause us any delay in science since it grow next turn and the additional food from LH will only speedup the growth.
Any ways, since I have not played yet, if someone want to jump in and play, I will support your need . Else, I will play in 22 hrs from now.
Sorry for the delay team but I just saw that the Scientist Francis Bacon can learn philo which is not a needed tech, but Vicky know theology which is along our ultimate tech path. I would like to learn Philo (bulb does not say an X number of flasks will go toward Philo) and see what we can get with the combination before doing all the trades. Since it is of great importance, I would like to get others input.
I dunno. Lightbulbing philosophy *can* be incredibly powerful as part of a wider strategy: Lightbulb philosophy, adopt pacifism (NB. Requires a state religion) for double great people, then use those to lightbulb education, be first to liberalism, take astronomy as free tech, lightbulb scientific method, lightbulb physics, etc. etc.). But that doesn't seem to fit at all with our current strategy, not least because we seem to have decided not to have a state religion, and we don't have the great library, and we want to generate 1-2 great engineers. Given our current strategy, I wonder whether our scientist might be better off in the long run founding another academy, in Rostov, which should soon become a very powerful commerce city?
Assuming we build the UN then I think our opponent is the civ with the most pop after us (currently Vicki). I think Toku is more known for having large amounts of military rather than pop.
The demographics screen is still showing that someone (presumably, someone we haven't yet met?) has 3 times our own population. I'm guessing that undiscovered civ is our diplomatic vote rival
The map also seems to show a discrepancy consistent with this: Visually, I'd say we've explored about 1/4 of the world, yet we have a roughly complete view of the borders of 5 civs (us, England, Rome, India, Greece), most of China, half of Persia, and some sight of another 5 (Egypt, Germany, Inca, Spain (?), Japan). Could Gyathaar have given some faraway civ a lot more land to settle than the rest of us? (I'd laugh if it was Monty).
To get the 65% or so needed for a diplo victory we may well need more than Ghandhi, Julius & Vicki and ourselves. In that case any other civ is likely to be another religion so we may find that free religion is to our advantage.
We'll definitely need a lot more than that (that's one reason why through most of the game I've been thinking that we need to go conquering: If we can't get a very big chunk of population for ourselves and/or our allies, we're going to have the difficult task of simultaneously pursuading 7-10 civs to vote for us). I've got an eye on the Hatty-Frederick-Cyrus block as friends, but I don't think even that plus the Christian block will be enough by itself to secure the vote.
However we need to know who else is out there and how much they like us. One of the reasons I raised the subject was because of the DynamicSpirit's suggestion that we trade with Huayna.
Assuming noone happens to know what the figure is, it may be worth digging in the XML files to find out how long it takes the AI to forget that we traded with their worst enemies - that'd give us a rough idea how late we can trade with Huayna without it impacting the votes from Hatty and Frederick.
Market in StP will do wonders for us and so will the LH. Rushing there should not cause us any delay in science since it grow next turn and the additional food from LH will only speedup the growth.
Hmm ok. Just remember to assign that extra pop back as a science specialist.
Htadus said:
I just saw that the Scientist Francis Bacon can learn philo which is not a needed tech, but Vicky know theology which is along our ultimate tech path. I would like to learn Philo (bulb does not say an X number of flasks will go toward Philo) and see what we can get with the combination before doing all the trades.
Sorry for the delay team but I just saw that the Scientist Francis Bacon can learn philo which is not a needed tech, but Vicky know theology which is along our ultimate tech path. I would like to learn Philo (bulb does not say an X number of flasks will go toward Philo) and see what we can get with the combination before doing all the trades. Since it is of great importance, I would like to get others input.
Philo could give us some valuable near term techs. It would be nice to see if we could pick up compass from someone and quickly research Optics. I think a quick caravel in Coppertownski headed Eastwould get us the circumnavigation bonus. Handy for logistics and troop movement.
I also noticed there were a couple other trades I missed at the end of my turn. Egypt for one had some GPT and some other commodity ( I forget what) to trade and I think there were one or two other CiVs I was planning to look at for some GPT. I don't know what everyone's Philosophy on trading for GPT is but I some times will do it for even 1GPT and keep coming back every 10turns, canceling and make them buy it for more (when they have it.)
I don't disagree with what you say in general. However caravels can't carry troops. Notwithstanding that, finding who the other civs are is certainly quite important.
I don't disagree with what you say in general. However caravels can't carry troops. Notwithstanding that, finding who the other civs are is certainly quite important.
True- I don't normally waste time on Caravels for that very reason. In this case though we made quite good progress to the west early enough that I think 1 caravel (if we are fast about getting one) will be able to go East and quickly hit the circumnavigation point.
From looking around at the tech trading situation...I think that it would be a great idea to go ahead and lightbulb Philo. Normally I would prefer an academy, but here's my reasoning why I think Philo is better right now.
We are up drama on Vicky and Gandhi, and that's it. Neither one has Philo though. I believe we should be able to trade Philo and Drama to Gandhi for Theology and Compass. Then trade Philo and Drama to Vicky for Feudalism and all her cash. That would immediately catch us up to Vicky, Gandhi, and Julius, and allow us to go ahead and start on Machinery. It'd give us an immediate boost of two techs we need for Mass Media along with giving us Feudalism to help boost our defenses.
Summary: Bad news first. Ganghi came asking for help fight Tokugava and I accidentally agreed. I am not a monger so I am freaked out. There are two Japanese galleys near Japan-India coast without units. Two Roman ships are there too. They will dow on Japan. Ah....we lost the Hanging Garden to some unknown Civ.
Good news:We made a good deal with England and India. Learned Theo, Machineary and on our way to learn Optics. But to do that in 4-5 turns we need to make some deals.
Mao and Hauyna are candidates for Lit purchase if we want to sell. There are other minor trades that we can do and should but I left it for the next player.
Sparta and B'jing will be awsome production cities for us.
We should change some civics but they are costly. For additional 8 gpt, we can build units with +4 xp without a Rax.
0650 AD (Turn 210): Set science to 50% for 8 turn Compass, Rush Theater in B'jing and LH in St.P.
0665 AD (Turn 211): Cski: Duct>HG, B'jing: Theater>Sword(3 turns), St.P: LH>Market(101 turns?, grow in 5). Explore more. Build fishing net for Novg. Checked to make sure no one know Philo. Lightbulb Philo and we enter Midievel Era. Tried to make the trades but was Philo was not available???? IBT: Gandhi wanted to trade but I will wait.
0680 AD (Turn 212): I missed the production in Cap last turn, so I switched the galley build with a Cat. Parked the cat in Sparta and a worker is building a Quarry. Time to trade. Suprise...Gandhi does not want to trade Theology to us..."I have my reasons" he said. But Vicky will trade Theology and Compass AND 250g for Philo and Drama. Then knock on Gandhi's door again, he make the same offer of Feud and 190g which we take. Also trade clams to Hatty for fur. Up science to 100%. Machinary in 7 @-79gpt. Wanted to trade Lit to Hauyna but did not.
0695 AD (Turn 213): Move workers and exploring units. Sending a Galley to check the border to the north. IBT: Sorry team...We loose out on the Hanging Garden to some unknown civ.
0710 AD (Turn 214): Cski:Start sword and growing again. B'jing:Sword>Lbowman. We are paying
IBT: Luise wanted OB. I declined for the moment.
0725 AD (turn 215): Rustov: Completes Lib> start grainary. We see an Island to south with both silver and Iron.
0740 AD (Turn 216): The Galley could not see the owner of the border to north. The Island also have a whale.
0755 AD (Turn 217): Cski: Sword>LH. Cap:Cat>restart Galley. Worker mine gem for Rustov.
0770 AD (Turn 218): Exploring. Since there were no military movements by our old buds, I will not rush the rax in Sparta. IBT: Saladin wanted OB. I declined for the moment.
0785 AD (Turn 219): Learned Machinary and starting on Optics (in 5 turns). IBT: India came knocking asking for help to fight Tokugava. I accidently pressed the wrong button . Now we are at war. Toku was annoyed before but now he is furious.
0800 AD (Turn 220): Not much...just trying to get some galleys toward NW. Rastov:Grainary>Galley.
Here is your Session Turn Log from 650 AD to 800 AD:
Turn 211, 665 AD: You have discovered Philosophy!
Turn 211, 665 AD: You have trained a Worker in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Galley.
Turn 211, 665 AD: Cyrus converts to Taoism!
Turn 211, 665 AD: Julius Caesar's Golden Age has ended...
Turn 211, 665 AD: Isaac Newton has been born in a far away land!
Turn 212, 680 AD: You have discovered Theology!
Turn 212, 680 AD: You have discovered Compass!
Turn 212, 680 AD: You have discovered Feudalism!
Turn 212, 680 AD: The borders of New Novgorod have expanded!
Turn 212, 680 AD: The Hanging Gardens has been built in a far away land!
Turn 213, 695 AD: Coppertownski can no longer work on The Hanging Gardens. The lost ? is converted into 80?!
Turn 213, 695 AD: Alexander adopts Hereditary Rule!
Turn 213, 695 AD: Galileo Galilei has been born in a far away land!
Turn 213, 695 AD: Mao Zedong adopts Organized Religion!
Turn 214, 710 AD: The borders of Novgorod have expanded!
Turn 215, 725 AD: The borders of Rostov have expanded!
Turn 216, 740 AD: You have trained a Catapult in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Galley.
Turn 216, 740 AD: You have trained a Swordsman in Coppertownski. Work has now begun on a Lighthouse.
Turn 216, 740 AD: Christianity has spread in Sparta.
Turn 217, 755 AD: Beijing has grown to size 6
Turn 217, 755 AD: Isabella adopts Theocracy!
Turn 218, 770 AD: Huayna Capac has 160 gold available for trade
Turn 218, 770 AD: You have discovered Machinery!
Turn 218, 770 AD: Lodestone City has grown to size 6
Turn 218, 770 AD: Novgorod will grow to size 6 on the next turn
Turn 218, 770 AD: Rostov will grow to size 4 on the next turn
Turn 218, 770 AD: Frederick converts to Buddhism!
Turn 219, 785 AD: St. Petersburg will grow to size 9 on the next turn
Turn 219, 785 AD: Novgorod has grown to size 6
Turn 219, 785 AD: Rostov has grown to size 4
Turn 219, 785 AD: Julius Caesar adopts Hereditary Rule!
Turn 219, 785 AD: Rene Descartes has been born in Delhi!
Turn 220, 800 AD: You have declared war on Tokugawa!
I feel pretty bad about what happened. What happened was that I was going back and forth over the two tabs when I accidentelly pressed the button. This may mess our plans to get rid of Alex.
My instant reaction is that war with Toku isn't a bad thing at all. We now have a +1 on our relations with Gandhi, as opposed to a -1 for refusing to help him. Gandhi is someone we've been building a friendship with, whereas Toku is probably a lost cause for a diplo vote anyway. Tokugawa has to sail through a fair chunk of Gandhi's territory to reach us. We are 9 turns from optics at a sustainable 40% science rate, or just 4 turns if we can rustle up ~360 gold from selling techs (which as Htadus says, we can easily do; IMO we should do that). Once we have optics (plus a couple of caravels) we can blast any of Tokus's galleys out of the water (he won't get optics for ages; at present he doesn't even know metal casting), so we won't even need to worry about defending our northern cities from him.
I don't though see any reason to believe Rome is likely to declare war on Toku?
Incidentally, once we have optics, we'll be a pretty much unrivalled scientific leader: Only music will remain as a tech other civs have that we don't. I'm a little worried though that in terms of comparison with how other teams may be doing, I'd have preferred to know a few more techs in 800AD than we actually do.
btw Lodestone City is under cultural pressure - it's lost two of its tiles to Rome and a third to Arretium. We're going to need to start building some cultural buildings there.
Couple of other things that strike me on looking at the save.
ISTM we now have more than enough units in Sparta/Beijing to take out Alex. Since he doesn't yet have feudalism but can research it, that's probably best done asap. It'll be a lot harder once he has longbows.
Rostov shouldn't IMO be building a galley: In the long run, that's a high commerce, lowish production town, which should be focussing on its own infrastructure. Besides, in 4-ish turns, we'll have optics and some of our galleys will be redundant (galleys can't upgrade to caravels). At that point we'll ideally want caravels for exploring and defending our coast, with galleys confined to ferrying troops (ideally, escorted by caravels). For that reason I'm a little iffy about the Moscow galley too, though that one is nearly finished so may as well be completed.
Our units are now costing us 12gpt(!) - that's 10% on our science rate. We really need to either stop building units or start using them (I prefer the latter...)
Point of info: When clearing jungle, it's often better to have the worker clear the jungle first, then tell it to build the whatever-it-is on the freshly cleared grassland/hills. It takes the same total worker-turns, but you get the benefit of the jungle being cleared earlier, plus the intermediate option to move the worker onto something else more pressing, without interrupting his work.
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. Else, I will play in 22 hrs from now.
Since he doesn't yet have feudalism but can research it, that's probably best done asap. It'll be a lot harder once he has longbows.
