SGOTM 03 - Geezers

[markh]

Had a look at the save. Looks good.

Not to worry about the war with Toku. I do not think that we will have much trouble with that and as Simon mentioned he was no buddy of us anyway.

I got it, but we will need some discussion how to proceed.

I am planning to build a theatre in Lodestone City to get our culture up there a bit.

I also would like to have some courthouses to enable us to build the Forbidden Palace in Beijing. I think it is a nice spot for that.

Regarding Alex I agree that we now have enough units to finish him off. I will let Moscow finish the galley and then I might go for him. He still should have his two galleys and I do not want to lose a fishing net again.

Concerning the trades I need to have a look again. I am beginning to get confused with whom we should trade and with whom we better not trade. That are far too many AIs for an old Geezer.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Had a look at the save. Looks good.

Not to worry about the war with Toku. I do not think that we will have much trouble with that and as Simon mentioned he was no buddy of us anyway.

I got it, but we will need some discussion how to proceed.

I am planning to build a theatre in Lodestone City to get our culture up there a bit.

I also would like to have some courthouses to enable us to build the Forbidden Palace in Beijing. I think it is a nice spot for that.

Regarding Alex I agree that we now have enough units to finish him off. I will let Moscow finish the galley and then I might go for him. He still should have his two galleys and I do not want to lose a fishing net again.

Concerning the trades I need to have a look again. I am beginning to get confused with whom we should trade and with whom we better not trade. That are far too many AIs for an old Geezer.

Those plans sound good to me. I'm not convinced that there's anyone we shouldn't trade with currently. I'm fairly sure the AI forgets that you traded with their worst enemies after a while, and it's going to be a fair while before we start wanting our friends to vote for us in the UN It's long enough that alliances may change beyond our control anyway.

As far as Alex is concerned, the only units he can field against us are archers and cats - and of our units, swords and cats will be the best ones against those. So I'd be inclined to take most/all of our swordsmen/cats from Sparta/Beijing to finish Alex off quickly. Leave the axes/spears behind as they are our best defence against Mao's swords/axes/spears/elephants should he turn nasty again. If we can rustle up a longbow or two, that'd be cool - as those are the best city defenders, and will free up our offensive units to go on the attack.

Once we do have Athens, our defences are going to be a bit stretched as we'll have four cities within easy reach of Mao's forces (Athens, Sparta, Beijing, Lodestone City); we may want to consider and early strike soon afterwards against Shanghai/Nanjing, so we only have two vulnerable cities, and (hopefully) remove Mao's ability to build elephants. It's worth bearing in mind that Athens and Shanghai are currently battling for culture: As soon as we take Athens, Shanghai's borders will expand North and West, taking the hill-jungle and several sea tiles.

I like the courthouses, and agree that at present Beijing looks the best spot for the forbidden palace. I'd hesitate before committing ourselves though, aat least until we've explored the rest of the world and have a better idea of possible alliances. It may turn out that we need to conquer someone else (Toku?) in order to get enough population to win a diplo vote, even with our allies' support. If that's the case, we may end up with somewhere else having greater need of the forbidden palace. OTOH there's an obvious advantage in getting the forbidden palace built sooner rather than later.

 

[Dagnabit]

Those plans sound good to me. I'm not convinced that there's anyone we shouldn't trade with currently. I'm fairly sure the AI forgets that you traded with their worst enemies after a while, and it's going to be a fair while before we start wanting our friends to vote for us in the UN It's long enough that alliances may change beyond our control anyway.

Looking at the save there is over 500G to be had immediately if we trade with everyone. Another 4gpt if we want to trade Stone to Ceasar.

As far as Alex is concerned, the only units he can field against us are archers and cats - and of our units, swords and cats will be the best ones against those. So I'd be inclined to take most/all of our swordsmen/cats from Sparta/Beijing to finish Alex off quickly. Leave the axes/spears behind as they are our best defence against Mao's swords/axes/spears/elephants should he turn nasty again. If we can rustle up a longbow or two, that'd be cool - as those are the best city defenders, and will free up our offensive units to go on the attack.

Agree sooner the better

Once we do have Athens, our defences are going to be a bit stretched as we'll have four cities within easy reach of Mao's forces (Athens, Sparta, Beijing, Lodestone City); we may want to consider and early strike soon afterwards against Shanghai/Nanjing, so we only have two vulnerable cities, and (hopefully) remove Mao's ability to build elephants. It's worth bearing in mind that Athens and Shanghai are currently battling for culture: As soon as we take Athens, Shanghai's borders will expand North and West, taking the hill-jungle and several sea tiles.

I think Beijing will also be pressured severly. Somehow we need culture there or maybe you are right we need to lessen it by taking out Mao's culture generator(s)

I like the courthouses, and agree that at present Beijing looks the best spot for the forbidden palace. I'd hesitate before committing ourselves though, aat least until we've explored the rest of the world and have a better idea of possible alliances. It may turn out that we need to conquer someone else (Toku?) in order to get enough population to win a diplo vote, even with our allies' support. If that's the case, we may end up with somewhere else having greater need of the forbidden palace. OTOH there's an obvious advantage in getting the forbidden palace built sooner rather than later.

I don't think we have the luxury of building a courthouse in Beijing at the moment. Certainly with Mao's position unresolved. If we keep him around and try and convince him to be our friend, we will most certainly be squeezed to death in Beijing without a culture bomb (and I don't see a great artist coming very soon.) If he needs to follow Alex into a second class AI then we need to build troops in Beijing. If we are going to want elephants I would say prioritize several soon incase we do lose control of the ivory.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

If we are going to want elephants I would say prioritize several soon incase we do lose control of the ivory.

At this stage I'd say a couple of elephants would be nice but longbows are probably as important. Off the top of my head, longbows are by far the best units for defending our cities, and swords are best for attacking Mao's cities(slightly weaker than elephants up to CR1, but stronger from CR2 onewards, and cheaper to build). For countering isolated units (not mixed stacks) in the field:

• Elephants: best countered by spears (elephants are equally powerful but spears are cheaper to build).
• Catapults: Horse archers (can we build those now?). Elephants are a close second.
• Spears: Axes. Swords are pretty good too.
• Axes: Elephants. Horse archers next best but not ideal.
• Swords: Elephants, but axes are almost as good, and cheaper.
• Chariots: Elephants, then spears, but spears are so strong already that the elephant adds only marginal benefit.
• Horse archers: Elephants, but I don't think either Mao or Alex can build them?
• Crossbowmen: Elephants (but can Mao build crossbows? I don't have the game loaded to check).
• Longbows: Elephants (but you don't often see longbows in the field)

That all says to me that a couple of elephants would be useful to bring along for their specialist uses, but they're not going to be battle-breaking, and we don't need masses of them. Horse archers might be better if we can build them (they can get to the battleground quicker too).

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Horse archers: Elephants, but I don't think either Mao or Alex can build them?

Mao has a horse archer just to the north of Hangzhou.

Crossbowmen: Elephants (but can Mao build crossbows? I don't have the game loaded to check).

Mao wants Machinery which is the requirement to build them.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

I got it, but we will need some discussion how to proceed.

I am planning to build a theatre in Lodestone City to get our culture up there a bit.

I also would like to have some courthouses to enable us to build the Forbidden Palace in Beijing. I think it is a nice spot for that.

Regarding Alex I agree that we now have enough units to finish him off. I will let Moscow finish the galley and then I might go for him. He still should have his two galleys and I do not want to lose a fishing net again.

Your plan looks fairly good. A few points:

• I think you should get the elephant from Lodestone and the cat from Moscow over to Sparta before you declare on Alex. The reason is that Alex had eight archers the last we knew. The swords in Sparta & Beijing only come to seven so it's best to have at least eight attack units. The more cats the faster his defence comes down. Presumably it's 60% or so?
• I agree that a FP in Beijing sounds good. However we need 6 courthouses before we can build one so it's not going to be anytime soon.

Concerning the trades I need to have a look again. I am beginning to get confused with whom we should trade and with whom we better not trade. That are far too many AIs for an old Geezer.

Snap. I'm not that convinced that we need to trade atm unless we really need gold. I prefer to get techs in exchange tbh although I can see the point of gold to maintain research.

EDIT: It's not on the main tech path to Mass Media but is it worth researching Bureaucracy at some point?

EDIT 2: Now that we have a theatre in Beijing it's probably worth hiring an artist there to increase culture. It will help to nearly halve the time before the next expansion.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Mao has a horse archer just to the north of Hangzhou.

Bugger!

Oh well. More work for our spears I guess

 

[Thrallia]

just a note: Mao won't build crossbows, he'll build Cho-Ko-Nus...those have bombardment damage added to them. We really don't want to face those.

I'll take a look in the xml to see if I can find anything about the trading penalties.

 

[Thrallia]

well...either I know less about xml than I thought I did, or the answer is buried in the SDK, not the xml.

also, I believe the civs we've not met yet are America, Aztecs, Mali, and the Mongols. I doubt that Monty was given a huge location by Gyathaar, that'd be way too easy. Knowing his maps, it is Mali that is #1 in pop

 

[Thrallia]

scratch that, I just found the info...I don't know what the numbers mean, it might be the # of turns...the length of memory for the AIs seems to be the same for every AI(Alex, Asoka, Bismark, and Cyrus all have the same numbers), but the amount an action impacts their relations with you depends on the leader.

here's the xml of the memory decay

- <MemoryDecays>
- <MemoryDecay>
<MemoryType>MEMORY_GIVE_HELP</MemoryType>
<iMemoryRand>200</iMemoryRand>
</MemoryDecay>
- <MemoryDecay>
<MemoryType>MEMORY_REFUSED_HELP</MemoryType>
<iMemoryRand>100</iMemoryRand>
</MemoryDecay>
- <MemoryDecay>
<MemoryType>MEMORY_ACCEPT_DEMAND</MemoryType>
<iMemoryRand>50</iMemoryRand>
</MemoryDecay>
- <MemoryDecay>
<MemoryType>MEMORY_REJECTED_DEMAND</MemoryType>
<iMemoryRand>150</iMemoryRand>
</MemoryDecay>
- <MemoryDecay>
<MemoryType>MEMORY_ACCEPTED_RELIGION</MemoryType>
<iMemoryRand>100</iMemoryRand>
</MemoryDecay>
- <MemoryDecay>
<MemoryType>MEMORY_DENIED_RELIGION</MemoryType>
<iMemoryRand>50</iMemoryRand>
</MemoryDecay>
- <MemoryDecay>
<MemoryType>MEMORY_ACCEPTED_CIVIC</MemoryType>
<iMemoryRand>100</iMemoryRand>
</MemoryDecay>
- <MemoryDecay>
<MemoryType>MEMORY_DENIED_CIVIC</MemoryType>
<iMemoryRand>50</iMemoryRand>
</MemoryDecay>
- <MemoryDecay>
<MemoryType>MEMORY_ACCEPTED_JOIN_WAR</MemoryType>
<iMemoryRand>150</iMemoryRand>
</MemoryDecay>
- <MemoryDecay>
<MemoryType>MEMORY_DENIED_JOIN_WAR</MemoryType>
<iMemoryRand>100</iMemoryRand>
</MemoryDecay>
- <MemoryDecay>
<MemoryType>MEMORY_ACCEPTED_STOP_TRADING</MemoryType>
<iMemoryRand>100</iMemoryRand>
</MemoryDecay>
- <MemoryDecay>
<MemoryType>MEMORY_DENIED_STOP_TRADING</MemoryType>
<iMemoryRand>50</iMemoryRand>
</MemoryDecay>
- <MemoryDecay>
<MemoryType>MEMORY_STOPPED_TRADING_RECENT</MemoryType>
<iMemoryRand>30</iMemoryRand>
</MemoryDecay>
- <MemoryDecay>
<MemoryType>MEMORY_MADE_DEMAND_RECENT</MemoryType>
<iMemoryRand>20</iMemoryRand>
</MemoryDecay>
- <MemoryDecay>
<MemoryType>MEMORY_CANCELLED_OPEN_BORDERS</MemoryType>
<iMemoryRand>10</iMemoryRand>
</MemoryDecay>
- <MemoryDecay>
<MemoryType>MEMORY_TRADED_TECH_TO_US</MemoryType>
<iMemoryRand>100</iMemoryRand>
</MemoryDecay>
- <MemoryDecay>
<MemoryType>MEMORY_RECEIVED_TECH_FROM_ANY</MemoryType>
<iMemoryRand>20</iMemoryRand>
</MemoryDecay>
</MemoryDecays>

 

[Htadus]

Ok DynamicSpirit. You got me with your upside down photo. Are you visiting Down Under?

 

[Dagnabit]

Thrallia@ Those decay numbers if they are turns suggests that we would be safe to trade until we are somewhere near 100 turns from needing an AIs vote. Any positive trading in the last 100 turns should be productive in getting their support. Too simplistic I am sure-but not sure if there is any better guess.

Edit: The effect of "demands" and giving "gifts" are significantly higher so we should probably come up with a friends" list over the next 50-100 turns so we don't inadvertantly make a potential friend grumpy.

 

[markh]

ok some trades

Drama to Caesar for 100 gold and stone for 4 gpt
Literature to Mao for 140 gold
Drama to Cyrus for 180 gold

IBT : one of Tokus empty galleys appears at our West coast, I am sure he is interested in one of our fishing nets
Alex moves one archer towards our worker

Lodestone City : war elephant -> theatre
Sparta : barracks , continues on catapult

1) 815AD : move some galleys, maybe Toku attacks our galley South of Coppertownski, otherwise it will be a little difficult to keep that Japanese galley from pillaging

IBT : the Japanese galley is sunk by our glorious galley South of Coppertownski

Moscow : galley -> war elephant
Sparta : Catapult -> longbowman

2) 830AD : just moving units
clam to Isabella for 3 gpt

IBT : Coppertownski : lighthouse -> horse archer

3) 845AD : Gandhi makes peace with Tokugawa

IBT : the two Japanese galleys that were in Gandhis' waters enter ours

We meet Mansa Musa, he is very backward

We learn optics -> Paper

Beijing : longbowman -> catapult

4) 860AD : we sell drama to Mansa Musa for 60 gold
we sell drama to Huayna for 190 gold
we sell drama to Isabella for 40 gold

This gives us the opportunity to research Paper at 90%

Our eastern galley sees Montys' borders East of Germany

Other galleys move to intercept the Japanese ones, ha just see that Toku would have to cross Gandhis' waters to get to any fishing nets, so they are stuck on our West coast

IBT : nothing

5) 875AD : declare war on Alex

We meet Monty, but he is only middle in rank, but he knows civil service, lacks a lot other techs though

IBT : three Greek galleys carrying 2 pults, 3 archers and a settler leave Athens
Another archer moves towards our stones at Sparta

6) 890AD : move an axe and the longbow from Beijing to Sparta

IBT : Sign open borders with Isabella
Bismarck asks us to join in a war against Monty, I decline.

Alex unloads 2 archers and 2 catapults on the stones

Coppertowsnki : Horse Archer -> Caravel

7) 905AD : unload a war elephant at Sparta

there are only 4 archers and a catapult left in Athens, this can be over next turn

IBT : I do not know what Alex has in mind, but his moves on Sparta are very stupid, obviously he splits his forces to pillage

Moscow : war elephant -> forge
Sparta : longbowman -> courthouse

8) 920AD : war elephant kills archer at Sparta

Battle of Athens :

Catapults reduce the defences to 15%
Swordsman kills archer (92%)
Swordsman loses to an archer (72%)
Swordsman kills archer (63%)
Swordsman loses to an archer (63%)
Swordsman kills archer (69%)
Swordsman kills catapult (94%)
Swordsman kills archer (100%), Athens falls and Alex is history

Athens has an Academy and an Aqueduct

Uh, Monty seems to beat up Frederick as he shoots up to third place in the ranks

IBT : Mansa wants open borders, but I decline

Victoria has Devine Right as Islam is founded in York

9) 935AD : trade gems to Mao for 4 gpt and Optics for 80 gold
trade optics to Gandhi for 240 gold

It is widely known already and better we get the gold than somebody else

IBT : Paper -> to be decided, but I would go education, liberalism. I am quite sure we will be first to get a free tech -> astronomy, otherwise Printing Press would be the next tech on the way to Mass Media

Lodestone City : Theatre -> spearman

10) 950AD : moving units

We can make peace with Toku and he would give 40 gold, but I checked that only after saving, so the next one should make this deal
We can 50 gold from Frederick for any of the expired techs.
Apart from that not much more can be traded.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

scratch that, I just found the info...I don't know what the numbers mean, it might be the # of turns...the length of memory for the AIs seems to be the same for every AI(Alex, Asoka, Bismark, and Cyrus all have the same numbers), but the amount an action impacts their relations with you depends on the leader.

I thought I posted a reply earlier but it doesn't seem to be there.

Anyway the gist of my reply was that I thought the numbers might be associated with the odds of the AI forgetting any particular memory e.g. if the number was 50 then the odds would be 1 in 50 aka 2%. Certainly I'm not claiming that I'm correct but it's a possible answer.

 

[Dagnabit]

Good job Markh! Sorry to hear the sad news about your friend Alex.

I haven't got my Civ disk here so can't look at the save but everything sounds like we are progressing well. I could be wrong but I thought one of the AIs already had Education. In any event, isn't Liberalism the path that Gandhi usually takes? I do like getting education/Lib next if no AI has Education yet. We need the increase in research speed that universities can give us. I would hope that we aggressively try and trade for Printing Press if an AI gets it as the commerce increase will be equally as effective in increasing our research rate.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

@markh - Very pleased to hear that Alex is no longer a factor. Somewhat disappointed that you didn't hire an artist in Beijing though.

I have to say that I'm not that keen on going to war with Mao unless he attacks us. There's just so much that needs doing in our lands I would prefer to suspend military builds after our current builds complete. That said, I recognise that Toku has never been one to forgive and forget. Monty also seems to be active.

I wonder if Vicki is likely to convert to islam, especially since she founded it?

 

[Thrallia]

looking at the save....Toku is #2 in pop, as far as we know so far
The only civs we don't know are Mongolia and America...I really didn't want either of them to be the largest civ...America is generally liked and the Mongols are a wildcard.

No one knows paper yet except us, and paper is required for education. So I think we should definitely go Education and then either Printing Press or Liberalism.

On that note, I think we should start trading world maps...I'll do this at the start of my turnset. I just checked and Cyrus and Hatty will likely trade maps for our map and a little bit of gold, Gandhi, Vicky, and Julius would all likely give us map for map, but I didn't check. THey could allow us a better view of the world and tell us where to go to meet our last rivals.

On that note, we should pick someone to go ahead and start writing our spoiler, since it is likely we will meet the requirements within 2 turnsets. I would nominate either Simon or Sam. I think they are the two with the most literary flourish

 

[Thrallia]

also, our population has increased to #2, army size is #2, and production and food yield are #1. GNP is still #8 though...

on the Mao front. I think we want Shanghai, Ninjing, Guanzhou, and perhaps Hangzhou...but we don't want to kill him off. He's founded at least 3 really bad cities in the tundra that we would not want to even approach, since we can't raze them.

 

[Dagnabit]

The competitive part of me wants to go We must be doing something right as we are matching th Gypsy Kings step for step in score. (Are they going diplo? ) Then I did a look at the power graph and did a double

edit: double great job geezers!

 

[Thrallia]

alright, my wife gets back home tonight and so I won't be able to play tomorrow or Sunday, so I'm gonna play now, otherwise I may not get to for a full week.

Here goes