SGOTM 03 - Geezers

Dagnabit · Jan 12, 2007

DynamicSpirit said:
If we go for peace now, we'll have to declare war again. That'll give us min. 10 turns with the same unhappiness problems we have now (except possibly worse coz our cities will be bigger and so less able to sustain the unhappiness), and with no guarantee Mao will be willing to make peace at the end of that time..

Very good point that he may not want to give us peace. (Am I wishy washy or what :scan:

)( Its Heck when you are seeing some of these things for the first time and not sure whether to be aggressive or wait until you are in a comfort zone). If we can take down Hang in 8 -10 turns(lucky you Htadus :king:

) then our severely stressed towns from the rushing, will at least be able to look forward to growth uninterrupted over the near term.

Dagnabit · Jan 12, 2007

DynamicSpirit said:
1. Bring the axe and chariot from Lodestone City to Guangzhou. If we use the pre-turn to start doing that, they can be there in 3 turns.

Maybe upgrade units before transport? will cost 1 turn and $ but better bang for the buck if we want to get the war over

DynamicSpirit · Jan 12, 2007

Dagnabit said:
Maybe upgrade units before transport? will cost 1 turn and $ but better bang for the buck if we want to get the war over

We can't upgrade them and move them [onto the galley] in the same turn

So I'd suggest getting them to Guangzhou asap, once they are in the city we can see how their situation compares with where the other troops are and see if we have time to upgrade them before they join the rest of the stack.

DynamicSpirit · Jan 12, 2007

Dagnabit said:
Man I have a lot of sorrys this past 24hrs I knew we wanted a workshop but with all the cottaging we were doing I was to pre occupied with my other "difficulties" at Hanq.I thought I was working all production tiles last I looked. Can't win one

:sympathy: Yeah there was quite a bit going on, so no problem. Just thought I'd mention it for Htadus' turnset.

Dagnabit · Jan 12, 2007

Ok- I am going to be a little pragmatic about our war if I may. Simon got me thinking about this when he said we should finish Hang instead of declaring peace. In a more rational state from having come up short on finishing Hang I looked at the save I left and am convinced Simon is right-but only partly. Bottom line which I will try and explain, we should be able to take Hang in 6-7 turns and not disrupt Sparta or Athens. Caveat: I laid this out like a chess board and tried to determine how many troops sufficient to do the job in the shortest amount of time. Secondarily I wan'ted to minimize city damage. So here is the the result(and please verify):

Upgrade Lodestone Ax>Mace, Chariot>Knight(turn 0)-3 turns galley, 2 turns march-knight, 3 turns-march mace. Both in position NLT 6 turns. Shanghai Cat-1 turn-2 turns travel in our territory(3tilesturn)-3 turns Mao(1tileturn)-6Turns. All other players should be in position earlier than the above. 3 Mace, 2 sword,4 cat (2 full, 2 almost healed)(I think the medic HorseArcher adds about .2+.2normal heal per turn) <- This is wild a** guess.,plus 1 Longbow. This represents 14 or 15 attackers versus 3 Longbow, 1 Mace, & 1 Horse Archer.This is very doable without disrupting the mainland or Athens/Sparta. I would start a crossbow in Beijing (not Longbow) as it lends itself to maximizing a poprush in1or2 turns if needed. Gambit?

Dagnabit · Jan 12, 2007

DynamicSpirit said:
We can't upgrade them and move them [onto the galley] in the same turn So I'd suggest getting them to Guangzhou asap, once they are in the city we can see how their situation compares with where the other troops are and see if we have time to upgrade them before they join the rest of the stack.

See my post above

Dagnabit · Jan 12, 2007

Total attacking force turn 6:

1 knight
4 Mace
2 swords
1 HorseArcher
1 Longbow
5 Cat (3 healthy 2 almost )
possibly 1 Crossbow

defending:

3Longbow
1 Mace
1 HorseArcher
+Any build in next six turns, (Can't be horse or Mace as we have taken that away)

Sam_Yeager · Jan 13, 2007

Dagnabit said:
Ok- I am going to be a little pragmatic about our war if I may. Simon got me thinking about this when he said we should finish Hang instead of declaring peace. In a more rational state from having come up short on finishing Hang I looked at the save I left and am convinced Simon is right-but only partly. Bottom line which I will try and explain, we should be able to take Hang in 6-7 turns and not disrupt Sparta or Athens. Caveat: I laid this out like a chess board and tried to determine how many troops sufficient to do the job in the shortest amount of time. Secondarily I wan'ted to minimize city damage. So here is the the result(and please verify):

Upgrade Lodestone Ax>Mace, Chariot>Knight(turn 0)-3 turns galley, 2 turns march-knight, 3 turns-march mace. Both in position NLT 6 turns. Shanghai Cat-1 turn-2 turns travel in our territory(3tilesturn)-3 turns Mao(1tileturn)-6Turns. All other players should be in position earlier than the above. 3 Mace, 2 sword,4 cat (2 full, 2 almost healed)(I think the medic HorseArcher adds about .2+.2normal heal per turn) <- This is wild a** guess.,plus 1 Longbow. This represents 14 or 15 attackers versus 3 Longbow, 1 Mace, & 1 Horse Archer.This is very doable without disrupting the mainland or Athens/Sparta. I would start a crossbow in Beijing (not Longbow) as it lends itself to maximizing a poprush in1or2 turns if needed. Gambit?

This does actually look pretty doable. :goodjob:

A few points - With upgrade on turn 0 I think the Lodestone reinforcements don't arrive on the plantation north of Guangzhou until turn 4. From there 2/3 turns to the front? Upgrading the chariot will cost a fortune (314 gold) just for that unit. Maybe better to upgrade the spear (134G) and axe (179) instead? (313 gold in total) The spear has an unused promotion as well.

Htadus · Jan 13, 2007

DynamicSpirit said:
Depends. If we want to be able to lightbulb electricity, it's crucial to avoid discovering gunpowder until we've done that - in which case maces will have no upgrade potential. OTOH they remain our strongest overall attack unit and and will be very useful for a long time (as will longbows - our strongest city defence unit).

Okay, I do not understand why we need to avoid gunpowder before lightbulbing electricity. Is it because another tech replace electricity? It is Chemistry is it not? So the lightbulb goes to the least expensive tech..?.? :undecide:

Did I just answered my own question?

Htadus · Jan 13, 2007

Sam_Yeager said:
This does actually look pretty doable. A few points - With upgrade on turn 0 I think the Lodestone reinforcements don't arrive on the plantation north of Guangzhou until turn 4. From there 2/3 turns to the front? Upgrading the chariot will cost a fortune (314 gold) just for that unit. Maybe better to upgrade the spear (134G) and axe (179) instead? (313 gold in total) The spear has an unused promotion as well.

You just beat me to the punch Sam. We will only loose about 2.5 turns of tech research at max, but in the long run, it will be paid back. I agree with the two Maces. Does ship chains work in Civ4?

Htadus · Jan 13, 2007

Ok, This is what my turn set should be.

MM Cap to get HS in 15 turns.
Stop worker building cottage and switch to workshop. (BTW I thought we wanted to keep those 79 hammers for the UN. However, as I see it by building workshop now we will rush HS now and speedup the UN build even more with the use of the additional 2 hammers for the rest of the game. So it is a good choice.)
Move two future Maces to the front from Ltown.
Move Spear from Nanjing and LB from Athens to the front.
Start building a Knight in B'jing in 2 turns, and Cski & LCity next.
Attack when all are gathered. Or sooner if they commit suicide on our units.

BTW we should not do any civic changes until we are done with HS.

Okay. I am ready to play. So give me a go. It is 1:30 AM and I can play in the morning after sleeping.

DynamicSpirit · Jan 13, 2007

Without working through the figures in detail (too early for that much brain activity :crazyeye:

) Dagnabit's analysis sounds reasonable :goodjob:

. If it gives us enough units to guarantee taking Hangzhou then I'm happy not to disrupt cities. Does it still work with a couple of possible spanners in the works....?

1. The list of defenders doesn't include the two maces Mao has that look like they're heading for Beijing, but of course Mao may turn them back and have them defend Hangzhou. Or we might lose a unit or three taking them out in the field and we're unlucky with the RNG (or if Mao attacks the stack with his maces)
2. Growth in Hangzhou defenders may grow by > 1, eg. if Mao is bringing other units from further back.
3. We may need to hold some units moving to the stack back a turn or so to ensure units aren't moving isolated, allowing Mao to pick them off en route.
4. Are we holding enough defenders in Guangzhou to avoid losing that to a possible counter-attack as we take Hangzhou? (Mao can move between the two cities faster than we can)

I did assume btw that poprushing would be two turns in most cases - 1 turn to swap to the unit and give some hammers so we're not losing as much pop. I think knight would be better than crossbow if we can do it without using excessive pop - more versatile and stronger against everything except spears.

@Htadus: Ship chains: If you mean moving units between boats, no, you can't do that in Civ4.

btw, sorry if I'm saying stuff you already know, but to max. chances of taking city, throw a couple of collateral damage cats at it, then check the success chances for the 'real' units at each stage. You might find at some point it's better to throw a high-attack unit in before the remaining cats, if it has a high probability of winning, especially if the first cats have left one defender substantially stronger than all the others.

DynamicSpirit · Jan 13, 2007

Htadus said:
Okay, I do not understand why we need to avoid gunpowder before lightbulbing electricity. Is it because another tech replace electricity? It is Chemistry is it not? So the lightbulb goes to the least expensive tech..?.?
Did I just answered my own question?

Almost. The list of techs each great person will research is here: http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/gp_tech_pref.php. Basically they will research the first one on the list that you can research. If we research gunpowder, we open up chemistry (and after chemistry, fission) which both come higher than electricity. If as seems likely we hit physics before any AI, we'll get a scientist from that, and it'd be quite neat to use him immediately to lightbulb the next tech on our list

Of course it may be that by the time we're onto electricity, our research has got so high that we don't care about lightbulbing any more, in which case there'll be no problem about getting gunpowder, I'm just trying to leave the option open for now.

(btw great artists can lightbulb radio and mass media, though I suspect by then, the turns they'd save us may not be sufficient to justify trying to get them. Nonscientists don't seem to contribute nearly as many beakers to lightbulbs)

Sam_Yeager · Jan 13, 2007

DynamicSpirit said:
@Htadus: Ship chains: If you mean moving units between boats, no, you can't do that in Civ4.

Ummm. I think you'll find you can. However it's fiddly and if we're only talking about a few units then it's probably not worth bothering about.

DynamicSpirit · Jan 13, 2007

Sam_Yeager said:
Ummm. I think you'll find you can. However it's fiddly and if we're only talking about a few units then it's probably not worth bothering about.

Ooooh, thanks for the info Sam!

Offhand, do you recall how to do it? I've had a few occasions in my games where I'd love to have done that, but whenever I've tried to move a unit from one boat to another one, I've hit that red circle that says 'you can't move here'

Sam_Yeager · Jan 13, 2007

DynamicSpirit said:
Offhand, do you recall how to do it? I've had a few occasions in my games where I'd love to have done that, but whenever I've tried to move a unit from one boat to another one, I've hit that red circle that says 'you can't move here'

IIRC you need to have both ships in the same square. Then you select a unit and load it into another ship. I can't remember if you have to unload it from the original ship first. It's a while since I've done it.

I think the key thing is that you don't move the unit. Perhaps that's why you were having the problem.

Htadus · Jan 14, 2007

Summary: We have our first Knight

(first time I have seen one on my side) We know Scientific Method and now learning Physics. We have two sources of Oil. We captured our last target city

and at peace now. I do not know what to do with the workers :confused:

.

Sorry no images: my computer was very sluggish so I did not risk trying to save images.

1280 AD (Turn 0): Loaded the galley with Spear and Axe from Loadstone and move. Move Spear from Nanjing and LB from Athens to the front. Change the workers to workshop. MM Cap to get HS in 15 turns.
IBT: Saladin ask for OB and we decline. Chinese Horse archer enters our territory past the stack. No other attacks.

1286 AD (Turn 1): Guangzhou come out of revolt and will starve. So I sacrifice 4 pop to get a mace. It will not starve anymore. Use the spear from B'jing to kill horse archer. Moved a Caravel to Nanjing coast and another to Loadstone. Bombard Hangzhou. No additional unit defending yet. Fortified Maces. Lightbulbing Sci Method-> I think there were more flasks. We can learn it in 87 turns at zero. I am going to wait at zero one more turn until we upgrade the two units. Start 2 knights and a courthouse in Ltown, Csky and Shanghai. The Christian missionary I am sending to the east coast.

1292 AD(Turn 2): Ship chained the units to Guangzhou. Moving the Missionary for oversees travel. Moved the scout in recalled Caravel to Nanjing thinking it will help unhappiness but it does not work. Most of the units are in place. Science to 100%->Sci Method in 4 turns. Guangzhou complete Mace and start LH.
IBT: Musa wanted OB and we decline.

1298 AD (Turn 3): Mao just connected the iron (The worker moved to the next tile to build windmill. Upgraded units and fortified more.

1304 AD (Turn 4): Moving units into place. Bombard defense. Moving the missionary overseas.

1310 AD (turn 5): Vicky starts a GA. Moving units. Spread Christianity in Guangzhou. Now it has 2 culture per turn.
IBT: Frederick wanted OB and we declined. Mao must have known something and asked for a treaty and we declined. We know Scientific Method. Start Physics.

1316 AD (Turn 6): Hangzhou assault
Catapult loses to: Chinese Longbowman (3.96/6)
Catapult loses to: Chinese Longbowman (3.96/6)
Maceman defeats (3.84/8): Chinese Longbowman
Maceman defeats (5.12/8): Chinese Longbowman
Maceman loses to: Chinese Longbowman (0.48/6)
Maceman defeats (2.72/8): Chinese Longbowman
Maceman defeats (1.60/8): Chinese Maceman
Longbowman defeats (6.00/6): Chinese Longbowman
Captured Hangzhou (Mao Zedong)
Loose 2 cats, two withdraw and one mace die. Peace treaty with Mao for WM and 1gpt. All he had. There is 1 deposit of oil in Fatherland. Another within Hangzhou. I wish I did not use the Missionary last turn. Set science to 0 since we only have 113g.

1322 AD (Turn 7): Placed 5 units each in G&H zhou. Sending 3 to Fatherland. Remainder is heading to Nanjing. All these workers and AFAICS not much to do.
IBT: Louis want us to stop trading with Hatty and we declined. He is going to take this very seriously.

1328 AD (Turn 8): Workers are doing some roading since nothing else is needed. BTW the Roman Galley next to Nanjing has been moving (seems) one tile per turn. But has been within the fat cross for the most part. Hummm. No amount of mming will drop HS in Cap.

1334 AD (Turn 9): Move 2 each workers to build one mine and chop jungle near Shanghai. Moved a sword to the hill between Shanghai and Nanjing. Shanghai completed courthouse and Cski a Knight (yoo-hoo). Both start a Library. Sending the Caravels out to explore, one with the scout.
IBT: Izzu said "It will be on your head"??? because we refused to become a Buddhist nation. How rude?. Huyena wanted open borders and I declined.

1340 AD (Turn 10): Mining and chopping jungles. The 3 caravels and 2 workers are available to do some thing. There is a LB in Galley next to Ltown for security and Vickys Galley has bee north of Ltown for about 2 turns. BTW After the HA was stationed in Nanking a couple of turns ago, the Roman Galley left. I will stop my turn and let the next player take over.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Geezers_SG003_AD1340_01.Civ4SavedGame

Spoiler :

Sam_Yeager · Jan 14, 2007

Htadus said:
We know Scientific Method and now learning Physics. We have two sources of Oil. We captured our last target city and at peace now.

Nicely played Htadus. :goodjob:

Far less casualties than might have been expected. [party]

Htadus said:
I do not know what to do with the workers .

They can always build roads in the fatherland if nothing else.

Well hopefully that's the last offensive that we'll need to take. Just the minor detail of getting a diplo win now.

Civics - If we're going to start changing then we probably should do it earlier rather than later. As I posted earlier my preferences were free speech, caste and free religion which would cost us three turns of anarchy. One caveat is that we should delay any civic changes until the HS finishes in Moscow. That said we still have the unresolved questions as to whether there is an advantage in changing civics and , if so, which civics we should change to.

Science - We don't have enough funds to research @100% for long so we might as well set research to 0% at present. I don't think SP will pop the next great person for another 24 turns or so. As we no longer have a clean pool at SP it's a moot point whether it'll be a GS or GA. Therefore we'll need to self research Physics.

Defence - We need to garrison Athens. Both Toku & Louis don't like us so I think we need somewhat better defence in our cities than warriors and chariots. See below for a further thought on Toku.

Builds - Barring accidents we should complete HS in Moscow. I can see the case for a forge in Athens but why are we building it in front of a library? There's a perfectly good academy going to waste in that city. We probably need to keep the bulk of our existing forces in Alex's and Mao's former lands for deterrence purposes. Therefore I think Coppertownski & Lodestone should build additional forces for themselves and our northern cities.

Trade/Diplomacy - Mansa is willing to trade Banking for Liberalism, world map & gold and I think we should take the deal. Vicki 'has enough on her hands right now' so she is obviously going to attack someone, hopefully Toku. Julius has no objections to attacking Toku but doesn't seem willing to do so at present. However I think it's worth checking this periodically. It would give Toku anther target to hate instead of us. More to the point it should discourage Julius from voting for him. :evil:

Toku is still second in pop and land to us which is good. If that keeps up then he'll be our opponent for Sec Gen.

Dagnabit · Jan 14, 2007

Sam_Yeager said:
Nicely played Htadus. Far less casualties than might have been expected.

I agree nice Job Htadus :goodjob:

. I can see the case for a forge in Athens but why are we building it in front of a library? There's a perfectly good academy going to waste in that city..

@Sam - Can you explain what you mean :confused:

and thus spread increase culture and wisdom to this fledgling city

DynamicSpirit · Jan 14, 2007

Sam_Yeager said:
Nicely played Htadus. Far less casualties than might have been expected.

I'll echo that. We're in a nice position now.

Sam_Yeager said:
They can always build roads in the fatherland if nothing else.

More cottages

Sam_Yeager said:
Well hopefully that's the last offensive that we'll need to take. Just

You mean we're not going to go and conquer everyone else now? :cry:

SGOTM 03 - Geezers

Warlord

Warlord

Fear him of the pink tie

Fear him of the pink tie

Warlord

Warlord

Warlord

Another Original Geezer

A and L's dad

A and L's dad

A and L's dad

Fear him of the pink tie

Fear him of the pink tie

Another Original Geezer

Fear him of the pink tie

Another Original Geezer

A and L's dad

Another Original Geezer

Warlord

Fear him of the pink tie

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