SGOTM 03 - Gypsy Kings

[AlanH]

Welcome to your C_IV SGOTM 3 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

The Game
As Peter The Great, Leader of All the Russias, you are charged with achieving a Diplomatic or Space Victory.

This Monarch difficulty game is on a Standard size, Gyathaar-special, crowded map, at Epic speed, against 17 rivals. All victory conditions are enabled, but the laurels for this contest will be awarded to the teams who achieve the fastest Diplomatic or Space victory.

Version
Your team will play this map in Civilization IV version 1.61, using the standard HoF Mod for Windows version 1.61. This is currently HOF_Mod-1.61.008, but we shall use the latest version of the mod as at the start date for the game.

Your start file will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page at midnight, server local time, at the start of December 1st.

Here's the starting position - click the image below to see a larger version.



Map Parameters
Playable Leader/Civ - Peter of Russia
Rivals - all the other 17 civs in version 1.61
World size - Standard
Difficulty - Monarch
Landform - Archipelago, low sea level, tropical
Game Speed - Epic
AI Aggression - Aggressive
Barbarians - Standard
Permanent Alliances Enabled
No City Razing

Notes

• Please visit the Civ4 SGOTM reference thread to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.
  
• BOTH Civilization IV v1.61 and Warlords v.2.08 are supported for this SGOTM. No other versions can be used, and you will have to stick with your chosen version throughout the game.
  
• Teams will compete for four awards for each version of the game - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the fastest finishes, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher.
  
• All teams must play the sponsored variant - awards will be given to teams who achieve Diplomatic or Space victories in the least turns.
  
• All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

Remember, Rule Number 11: Have Fun.

 

[da_Vinci]

PFC dV Checking in.

To all:

Be sure to subscribe to this thread, and to the SGOTM maintenance thread (or AlanH will come after you! )

Does everyone have the HOF mod .008 installed? Anyone need any info about the mod?

Be careful not to accidentally enter another team's SGOTM 03 thread. I have seen posts where players have done that inadvertantly, so it can happen.

To get acquainted, here is the info about skill and experience from our sign-up posts:

Spoiler :

Conquistador 63
2. monarch/emperor
3. yes, since GOTM5
4. yes, SGOTM2 (still in progress)

da_Vinci
2. Level? You mean what I can win at? Noble always, prince most of the time. Monarch would be iffy.
3. Played GOTM 10 (got killed), 11 (won on adventurer) 12 (won on contender)
4. No prior succession games

Ronnie1
2. Monarch
3. yes
4. yes

Joemama
2. Just moved up to monarch.
3. Once, but I died and didn't submit.
4. No.

igelkott
2. Monarch
3. Yes
4. Yes

Confusion
2. can win monarch with a good start
3. Played once, lost on emp.
4. no

Scout214
2. Prince
3. No
4. No

So four of us are new to succession games. We'll be looking to the veterans for guidance.

dV

 

[Joemama]

Hello all, here is the first post to gypsy, I mean gipse, I mean gypsy dominance.

What does everyone think of the starting position? I vote scout one east and discuss. From there I would think scout northeast, but if something looks interseting, maybe south. I like the two clams, but my experience is that good land tiles are hard to come by on this map, and I don't know if I want to build Moscow on one of our two visible floodplains. I would also prefer to have some hammers in the capital BFC.

As far as tech goes, I vote fishing. We will need to hit at least one of the clams and fishing boats make great scouts on this map.

 

[Scout214]

Hello all! I'm Scout214. daVinci and I are longtime friends. He's more proficient at Civ 4 than I am, though.

dV and I have tried two Monarch level 18 player games, with each of us taking a different Peter the Russian position. In the first, I found it important to get more settlers going quickly. My position got strung out in a thin north/south line on one island. The Romans and Aztecs attacked me quickly. I think the game in general has the AI do that to punish humans who neglect to build sufficient military units quickly enough. Otherwise, they leave us alone for a while. In the second game, I got more settlers going faster and went to war repeatedly and briefly to expunge any AI's who plopped cities down on 'my' island. There's one left to hit but otherwise I have about 8 cities on a sizable island.

I also tried one alone. The Japanese and I shared an island. They made four cities far quicker than I could get a second one going. While they gobbled up the copper resource, it turned out that I had iron near my capital. I had gone to war to get their copper city but that was a mistake. I should have waited, gotten the iron, and pursued them in strength instead of piecemeal.

In that case, it behooved me NOT to make settlers fast. Depends on the situation. Our scout will be crucial to ascertain what we need to do based on how big the island is and whether we share it.

In general, my preferences include founding the first city where the settler starts. I hate giving away a turn of scientific research. In this case, though, I'm thinking that 1N may be better. My limited experience of the Monarch setting tells me that the capital city's ability to produce stuff fast is more important than in lower levels of the game. If faced with a hostile AI on the island, that would be especially so. Moving 1N gets us a greater production capacity. City #2 should go to the NE to grab the 3 hammer hill as well, unless the scout finds a reason not.

I tend to refrain from building Warriors at all, but compensate by getting archery fairly quickly. There is seldom a situation in which we'd get attacked so fast that we couldn't have at least one archer done, unless we reseacrh so many other things first that we interminably delay getting that one.

To me it is crucial to identify quickly where the copper, horses and iron are. Getting the appropriate research done to accomplish that is important.

Usually, I delay getting a worker to give the capital time to build some population. Instead, I build a barracks in advance of the archer so that we are always building higher quality troops. Thereafter, getting a worker to do its thing with roads, mines, cottages, farms, etc. is important.

Getting fishing going isn't that big a priority to me. However, in a game of islands we're going to need some galleys faster than usual.

Scout214

 

[Ronnie1]

Welcome Kings!

Now we can get down to some real planning!

Has everyone had a chance to play with "permanent alliances"? I believe it will be the key to victory in this game. I would suggest you try at least a quick setting game with alliances so you begin to get a feel for how they work.

As for our early strategy, city placement will be important on this map. As has been suggested in our earlier discussions, the first move will be to move the scout E-NE to the hill and see what there is to see. The 1st player should then post a screen shot for evaluation and discussion. It will be important for people to try and check to this thread at least daily if we are to be effective as a team. And there is no reason to rush through your turnset, we are not in a hurry! If you have questions or just want some feedback, always feel free to keep the team informed.

I've copied parts of the following posts from the old Gipsy Kings thread because I think they are relevant here.

@All,
I've spent some time looking at Team CFR's SGOTM2 thread, I believe that they won. They really go into detail about their plans, and have some really great debates about their options. I don't believe I have the skill currently to match their tactics. I am going to keep reading however and see how much I can cram in! It makes for some great learning opportunities if any of you are interested.

@R1: it is a good idea to read other sgotm2 threads indeed. I started reading short straw's - I picked them cause they did ok even though they weren't the "best". Dunno why, maybe I thought "the best" would have too much micromanaging for our tastes. In fact, even ss used MM tactics like binary research and the pop-rushing bug. I doubt that "casual players" like our team would bother to do that, but maybe I am just wrong.

I am not a big fan of micro managing at all, what I am interested in, is learning how to effectively raise the scores of my games, while having a great time of course!! The reason I picked CFR, was to see what Obermot was doing in that game. He always finishes very high, and I've tried to implement some of his strategies.

I think we should spend some time discussing which victory type we will employ. There will be some overlap in strategy of course, but I believe the sooner we are able to choose a clear path, things will get easier and be more focused.

Most importantly, as DV said in his opening post, do not look at any of the other team threads or we will be DQ'ed.
Make sure you have the most current HOF mod, (.008) I believe.
Let's all have fun and give 'em hell!

 

[Joemama]

As far as the opening moves go, since it seems our settler will be headed north, couldn't he move 1E first before heading accross the river? I believe going E then NW will take the same number of moves as just going N or NE and it would reveal the tile 2E of the settlers' current position.

Also, for all of us newbies, what is the best way to post screen shots? Do I need to get a photobucket account or something?

 

[da_Vinci]

Hi all!

The games that Scout214 refers to are multiplayer games where each of us is playing Peter, with 16 AI (18 total seems to be the max). We hook up by cell phone (free LD, free nights and weekends) to talk while we play, and it's good fun for us old high school buddies.

@Ronnie1: do you know if there is a strategy thread that addresses permanent alliances? Scout214 and I have never chased a diplomatic victory, so that is a new approach to us.

@all: Might be worthwhile to make a list of things we do the same for either victory type, and things that need to be different. For example which of the following are same or different between types:

Early expansion, choice of wonders, choice of religion, size of empire (land, pop), how we respond to AI demands ...

OK, back to the lay of the land. Scout move east, then up the hill NE makes sense. But is that the only move? Let's discuss whether there might be merit to moving the scout NW, then either N, NE, or E to the other hill depending on where the water is.

Where to move the scout depends on what information we most need to make our decision about the settler. I think that there are only a few contingencies.

Settling in place looks workable. Lots of commerce to be had, and lots of food. Lean on the hammers, but there is the hill under the spice NW. If we chop all of the forest, that hill would be the only real hammer source. But perhaps we can make up for that by just pop rushing production in that city.

Settling in place is mated to the idea that we use the other two hills for a production city. Now this is where we need recon from the settler. My understanding is that to efficiently work mined hills, you need some bonus food resource in the same city. Suppose there is no food bonus that can be mated to a city with the two hills. Might we then regret not settling 1N of the settler to get a second hill in our capital (which will have plenty of food)?

If the scout finds a food resorce that can support the two hills in a second city, then settling in place is no problem. So which direction do we want to look? NE, or NW?

Let's gaze into the fog and see just how much or little land we have to work with. The tile north of the hill spice appears to be water. 2N 1W of the scout looks to me like water as well (with a spec of land in the SE corner). 2N of the scout could be forest or water to my eye. 2N 1E of the scout looks like forest (trees across the entire side). 2 NE of the scout could be forest or water. Everything in the eastern fog looks like water, except perhaps 1E of the three-hammer hill.

So we might find that the land we see at the start is all the land that we have! In that case, do we squeeze two cities into the island (then we settle in place, and 2nd either between the hills or 1N of that if there is land), or do we make one best city here and build a galley (and what is that one best city)?

This brings us back to which way to start with the scout. For a while, before I realized that the one spice was on a hill, I contemplated settling 1N 2E to get both hills, fed by farmed flood plains. But with hill under the spice, I think that move is off the table, unless we found two or three seafood off the east coast. So I like the 1 E, 1NE to hill with the scout, as that answers the east coast food question, and a lot of the "are we on a tiny island" question.

If that scout move finds food for the hills, or finds that we are short of land (and if settling in place is clearly the choice for two cities on this island), we can settle in place. If the issues are still iffy, we can move the settler 1N (which ends his move). Then the scout can make a second move, either N or NW of the three hammer hill, or SW-NW to the other hill to finish recon. Then from the forest 1N of start, the settler can found in the forest or back on the flood plain on turn 2 (or turn 1 if you start counting at 0, which the HOF mod does as default [but we can set start to 1]).

And if there is a treasure in the eastern sea (known on first scout move), then 1N 2E founding may be back on the table.

Of course, final decisions will await what we see. But I think this pretty much exhaustively covers the likely scenarios, so we can go in with some pretty good contingency plans.

dV

 

[da_Vinci]

As far as the opening moves go, since it seems our settler will be headed north, couldn't he move 1E first before heading accross the river? I believe going E then NW will take the same number of moves as just going N or NE and it would reveal the tile 2E of the settlers' current position.

Also, for all of us newbies, what is the best way to post screen shots? Do I need to get a photobucket account or something?

Yes, if we decide to have the settler end 1N, he can get there by E - NW in one turn. Good pickup!

Since we might decide to settle in place depending on what the scout finds, I think we still finish the scout moves before starting any settler moves (forgive me for stating the obvious).

Under the location for typing your reply (and under the post icons) there is a button "manage attachments" that takes you to an attachment upload window. That works within file size and attachment per person limits. For high volume of attachments, photobucket may work better. My Spyware doctor was complaining about something on imageshack (but not photobucket), in case you worry about such things.

dV

 

[Confusion]

hello all, Confusion signing in.

I made a 10 test games: 18 players, standard map. 5 of the test were pangea 5 were continents. I was looking to see where will our closest oponent be and i calculated the averages. The pangea showed that between the closet oponet and us were 5,4 tiles (but there was one extreme were only 3 tiles separated us) and on the continents the average was 6. The bigest distance was 7 tiles. But again this is a custom map so we can expect anything.

About this start: we should definetly go for the sites with higher production because we will need production for the wars that will come and will be needed.


Im GMT+1 and im active at nigh, so you can expect my posts at this time

Edit: Ghaaa!. I just saw that the landform is archipelago so you can scrap my tests.

 

[Ronnie1]

@Dv and All
Here is a link to an article describing how to get into a Permenant Alliance.
Not all info is relevant to our situation, but well written.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=158675

 

[Ronnie1]

The reason I believe a PA will be key to this game? If it's available, the AI's will do it! What does this mean? Once any 2 civs sign a PA, they immediately share almost everything, the exception being resources. But they will also immediately gift excess resources to their partner if available. So now they share all techs and wonder effects, and probably resources as well. As the old saying goes, "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em". Once 2 AI's have signed a PA, they are obviously going to be strong and teching like crazy. So we would want to get into a PA earlier rather than later, if given the choice. Also, earlier will give more choices as to who we get as a partner.
If we work backwards from this goal, 2 obvious choices occur first. Which victory type are we going to pursue? The part that is not obvious, which one will give us the best chance for victory. As I said in 1 of the PM's I sent, so far, I have kinda sucked at fast spacerace victories. The earliest one happened to be a randomly generated epic game, standard size map, with you guessed it Peter as the leader, 1936 was the date. The map was mostly 1 continent and only 6 rivals. This would not be a very good finish by SGOTM standards. I have achieved exactly 2 diplomatic victories, but 1 of them was an emperor level game with Bizmark as the leader, in 1824!! Not quite sure how I pulled that one off. My only emperor level win!
Do we need to decide which victory to pursue early on? My gut feeling says yes, but I'm sure my diplo win above was an accident, sort of. I built the UN so I'd be in the vote, the fact that others voted for me was the accidental part.
I think early on, our main goal should be quick expansion. This will be a crowded map as we've already discussed. Sufficient military and techs to protect the new empire, and try not to upset very many neighbors at the outset. Exploration will be key also, the more civs we know, the faster we research, and more trading opportunities.
A word about Religions! I am not in favor of trying to found any of the early ones, and don't think we should use one early for any reason. Why? Religions make people mad, especially with the aggressive AI trait. We wont know who we will want as our PA for at least a little while, so better not to make enemies early. Lets call this early strategy 1.
Early strategy 2 could go something like this. Try to found and convert as many neighbors as possible. The problem I see with this approach, we don't start with mysticism, and with so many civs in the game, I think the religions will end up widely dispersed anyway. I doubt if any one civ will found more than 2, and it's possible that no one will get more than 1.
Another strategy could involve some serious warmongering early on followed by a late push for diplomacy or spaceship. Not sure if this would be possible or not, but might be fun to try!
The main thing now is that we have a few days to discuss all the options that people come up with, and it all may go out the window once our scout starts moving around. The only thing I really hope is that real map is better suited than the "FBGTest" start that I downloaded. I was only able to get 4 cities built and capture 1 barb and 1 from the Inca's after they declared on me. I played to about 1150AD and this is how it looked at that point. http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=143080&stc=1&d=1164499817
As team CFR showed last game though, there are ways to succeed in any situation.

 

[da_Vinci]

Hi All,

This will address Ronnie1's description of permanent alliances above. Scout214 and I often play unbalanced team games, in which he and I are a team, and 3 or 4 AI are a team. We always beat 3 on noble, have just been able to beat 4 on noble, and just beat 3 on prince.

Here is what happens: We can both reseach the same tech, and cut the research time almost in half (AI's get to have all 3 or 4 on the same tech!). If we research different techs, we automatically get the benefits of each other's techs. If I build Stonehenge, he gets obelisks in all cities too. Resource benefits are the only thing not shared.

These games are hard because there is almost no opportunity to trade with the other team. Concessions in peace negotiations are about all you can get.

Now the interesting thing of this is that you win as a team. So in SGOTM 3, if there are PA's, do they win as a team? If we become part of a PA, do we win as a team with our AI partner(s).

And how many can be in an alliance? Could it become 9 vs 9, just two teams? I have some reading to do!

dV

 

[Ronnie1]

@DV and All,
Only 2 civs per team/alliance in this contest. Once they are established, it is locked in unless 1 of the civs is killed off(not likely). The hard part will be getting the partner that will help you the most. PA's are not available until communism, but the ground work must be in place before then for it to be an early option. Defensive pacts and shared wars are the 2 main factors besides just being on friendly terms with the target civ. It is a huge late game factor, but the early game will ultimately determine the outcome, which civs you attack, trade with, share religion with, and who those civs attack, trade and share with, will determine whether we are admired and trusted, or hated and despised. If diplomacy is the goal, careful attention must be paid, not only to who you say "no" to, but also who you say "yes" to! For these reasons, diplomacy is probably going to be very difficult with this many personalities in the game.
If spaceship is the goal, all you would really be looking for in a PA is a civ with the most cities. More cities = more research = more production etc...
Those civs are pretty easy to identify by mid game, they will be at the top of the graphs, and their curves would be gaining momentum by then. Hopefully we would not have done anything to upset them tremendously by that point!

 

[da_Vinci]

Hi All,

Ronnie1 posted his screenshot of the "FBGTest" map which is the Culdeus test map I have also played. In this and the next post I am going to describe my game with this to 1559 as I have learned a lot about clawing your way back in Monarch from this game.

Doing this with serial edits so pardon the "under construction". First will upload the screenshots, then the text.

Will post details about each game phase later, but overall:

1. This is almost the worst case scenaro minimal land start that I raised in the "lay of the land" post. Would a second city in the two hills NE of Moscow have made sense? Would Moscow have been better settled 1N?

2. Jungle in the rest of the land made initial progress slow. Expect this on this tropical map.

3. On Ronnie1's screenshot, he is building two wonders. I tried for Oracle and Colossus, got beat to both. We don't have a leader with a wonder bonus, so can we ever win the wonders race? I have none, and doing OK at the end.

Interesting that our founding city placements are virtually identical !!

4. Several cities have low production. I've done a lot of pop rushing to compensate. That makes score lower (less pop), so perhaps score underestimates our position for this reason.

5. Caught up in tech by beelining to Mil Trad (Cossacks) after enabling Caste System (code of laws) to spam scientists. This gave me tradable techs with AI. I used to hate to do asymetric trades (I get less in the deal), but now I figure that a) if you don't trade it for something, soon you'll get nothing for it, and b) if I trade it asymetrically 3 or 4 times, I come out ahead.

6. Cash trades to backward nations. When I needed an infusion of cash, I would find a backward nation with 200 or more gold, and give them an old tech for cash (they almost always throw in world map). Used cash for upgrades and keeping science slider high.

7. Pacificsm civic! Never used this before, but with a small army, the +100% GP rate was quite the boost! Have Moscow now pumping 40 GP points /turn. National epic is in Moscow for +100% GP points. Moscow has academy, 2 sci superspec, about 4 scientists, producing about 100 flasks.

(Still in progress: spoiler notes about each maps game phase)

Abour the 460 BC map:

Spoiler :

Dead last among those I have met. Started out warrior and fishing, then 3790 got fishing and went to workboat, archery (warrior on hold). Sorry, forgot to log rest of unit builds.
Techs discovered: Fishing 3790; Archery 3460; BW 2920; AH 2470; Myst 2230; IW 1330; Sail 985; Wheel 880; Pottery 745; Writing 595;
Religions founded elsewhere: Bud 3760; Hind 2950; Jud 1600 Conf 480
Wonders elsewhere: Henge 1480; Oracle 865; G Light 745; Mids 520
My next cities: St Pete 2140; Novgorod 775
GP elsewhere: Imhotep in 535 in Egypt (Hatty built Henge)
3730 met Monte. 3220 met Hatty.

About the 1559 map:

Spoiler :

I am now within 50 points of the leader. I am two techs ahead of Cyrus (Mil Trad and Print Press), four ahead of Khan (add Liberal and Econ), two ahead of Isabella (Nat'ism, Econ ... I guess that means I am ahead by Mil Trad too since Nat is a pre-req), one behind Capac (Rep Parts), two ahead of Caesar (MT, PP), even with Gandhi, four ahead of Hatty (same as Khan), one ahead of Mansa (Liberal), and five or more ahead of the rest)

With the science slider at 0, Moscow still makes 38 flasks, makes 114 at 60%. Big boost coming when I switch to representation. Have 40 GP points per turn there as well.

See next post for long range plans.

dV

 

[da_Vinci]

Hi all,

Needed a second post for the rest of the screenshots, so here it is.

Posting in the Advisors at 1559:

Just got capability to go to representation, so that is coming next.

Going for steel and cannons, then communism (the PA issue)

Pretty friendly relations, considering "cranky AI". I think that the asymetric trades improve relations, as they are kind of gifts. When I turn down a tribute demand, I often turn around and make some trade or small gift ... maybe that helps too?

I plan on rolling up Monte as fast as possible, then put F Palace up there (and courthouses). Early railroads to connect up the long snake for defense of the "double empire". Find a good PA. Then I'll try a space variant and a diplo variant and see how it goes.

Debating more offense, as I do want to be in control of aluminum for the space race.

Biggest lesson is perhaps to expect to be "behind" early, don't get discouraged, and there are ways to catch up. Since I can still count my Monarch games on one hand, this is a welcome discovery for me.

dV

 

[Ronnie1]

DV makes some really great points. About the wonder builds, sometimes I'll put some turns into wonders just for the cash. If there aren't alot of build options, or if I'm waiting for a tech for the next build etc... Also, some wonders seem to get ignored by the AI's for some reason. I started this test game with idea of seeing how best to control diplomacy with all the civs in play, and to see how much land I could grab. I've never had everyone on the map before. HC declared on me very early, I think because I wouldn't let him sail past to found cities. I was trying maintain at least a small circle of control around Moscow. I notice 1 glaring difference between DV's game and mine, almost all the civs in his game share 1 religion, that would make diplomacy much easier I think, as it is the single greatest modifier, outside of declaring war I believe. All those civs with the same religion should like each other, that increases world wide trade, an increase in science world wide etc...that would seem to speed up the game pace I believe. Did that happen accidentally, or were people spamming out missionaries?

Have we been thinking about which victory type we will pursue?

 

[Joemama]

A few thoughs for the discussion:


Have we been thinking about which victory type we will pursue?

It seems to me it will be faster to build the UN than to have to build all of the spaceship parts. Most of my previous diplomacy has been handled by macemen, so I don't have a ton of diplomatic experience. The hardest part of this that I see is keeping track of 17 other civs' relations at all times so that when you get those demands for tech or to declare war, you know who to appease and who to tell No. I will keep playing my test game later to see if this is as big of an issue as I think it will be.

In the early game, I don't see why we have to decide a victory condition now. A good city for a spaceship victory will be a good city for a diplomatic victory. Early technologies needed for a diplo win will be needed for a space win as well.

As far as wonders go, if we want to prioratize a couple, running engineer specialists (we are philo) to generate a great engineer or two could give us wonders in hammer poor cities.

 

[da_Vinci]

About the wonder builds, sometimes I'll put some turns into wonders just for the cash. If there aren't alot of build options, or if I'm waiting for a tech for the next build etc...

I read a tactic where some players pre-build military, let the prebuilds (1 away from finish) stack up in the city until they get civics that add experience, then pump the prebuilds out one per turn, highly promoted. An interesting way to save troop costs, and to leverage civics. An alternative use for surplus production perhaps ...

I notice 1 glaring difference between DV's game and mine, almost all the civs in his game share 1 religion, that would make diplomacy much easier I think, as it is the single greatest modifier, outside of declaring war I believe. All those civs with the same religion should like each other, that increases world wide trade, an increase in science world wide etc...that would seem to speed up the game pace I believe. Did that happen accidentally, or were people spamming out missionaries?

I can only say that when Conf came to me, it was already that popular, so converting was a clear choice. Yes, I am sure that it made my comeback much easier, and might not be the usual case.

Have we been thinking about which victory type we will pursue?

Any reason why we couldn't start aiming for diplo, with space as the fallback? With so many civs, no one will command huge voting blocks in the UN based on own territory (unless we war like hell and ally with the biggest), so the Dip vic will require great relations.

Space always seems to be the AI's back door to victory when I am kicking ass militarily, so it is important to be able to beat them to that if there is no other way (the sword) to stop them.

I have edited in the early game events in my test game (see lessons 1 above), which illustrates when AI was getting to wonders. Mids came late, do we want to go for it? Also, introduces discussion of research order. Archery early or not? Pottery early (we do get cheap granieries)? How fast to writing and alphabet? Skip mysticism?

dV

 

[Conquistador 63]

Hi all,

Sorry for the late check-in, busy RL in the last (and next) few days. Catching up with the reading today, and I have to say this is a real upgrade from GK’s SGOTM2 pre-game discussions. I regret not being able to play the test saves, thanks to dV & R1 for doing that. Also, kudos to Ronnie1 for bringing up the PA issue, although I have nothing more to add about the subject.

Anyway, several PM’s were exchanged between some members of the team before this thread. I may repeat here a few ideas I expressed on them, even though I guess the main issues have already been addressed here. I’ll also add a few thoughts and guesses:
· The closest settings game I played was GOTM8, in the sense it was archipelago/monarch (but 6 opps!). I ended up with a lackluster space race win (1930AD). FYI, fastest space in that game was 1838AD while fastest diplo win was 1460AD. That sure might make one think about which condition could be achieved faster in this game…
· Another thing I recall from that game was that the AI’s were building wonders quite early, probably because they didn’t have much land available to do anything else. In our game (and your test games might have shown this also) the situation might be even worse – 18 civs, many of them industrious…The only wonders I think we might try are the colossus and the great lighthouse, for 2 reasons: they can be very useful in a sea-based map and the AI’s aren’t too good at building them because they have a pre-requisite building (forge and lighthouse, respectively). That said, I have a habit of pursuing Oracle slingshots in my GOTM’s, but I doubt it will be doable this time.
· I am all for moving scout 1E/1NE, posting a screenshot and discussing where to settle with team. If nothing worthwhile shows in the east coast, I am easy either settling in place or 1N (moving 1E 1st as already suggested), but leaning towards the 1N option, and building a warrior, then a fishing boat when available. Tech: fishing followed by BW. The rest will depend on results of early exploration, we’ll have plenty of time to discuss them later.
· Still early to decide, but regarding dV’s last post, I think early pottery (followed by writing, and maybe alphabet if enough civs met early) will be nice. Archery only if no copper/horses nearby. Mysticism (in the path for Oracle) only if no other worker techs needed.
· Regarding pre-built military, it is worthwhile just up to a limited time horizon, because the invested hammers tend to decay fast with time.

 

[da_Vinci]

Hi All,

I like the idea of shorthand names for the Kings (save a few keystrokes), so I"m happy with dV (or any capitalization variant of that ). I see R1 has been used for Ronnie1, and C63 seems like a natural for Conquistador 63 (and have I seen that used before?). But I'd rather use members preference (or full name if that is preference), so what do folks think?

Re the last post by Conquistador 63:

I am all for waiting on archery if we can get away with that ... but .... In one test game, I escorted a settler with a warrior, founded St Pete and the warrior defending in the city lost to a barb archer . I think that the fist barb I saw was an archer. So are you thinking fishing, BW, AH, then if no copper or horse, archery? Unless horse or copper is in the capital, do we still need to wait for an archer to escort the settler, or do we gamble with a warrior?

All of the industrious civs are on the map, and if they also get marble or stone, wonders will be hard to get without great engineers. The option of chasing oracle or GL and/or Colossus would be enhanced, I think by the 1N settling, as we have two hills we can mine early.

Another potential advantage of the 1N settling is the opportunity to work the 1F 2H 1C spice tile at the outset. Or maybe work the 3F 0H 1C FP while we research fishing, then switch to WB and go to the spice for a fast WB. Or do we want to just run max food at the start (production and research will be slower)?

Do we finish the initial warrior before starting the WB, or switch to the WB in the middle? If I have time, I'll run a few trials in the test map and see how that plays.

dV