SGOTM 03 - Gypsy Kings

[da_Vinci]

Plans for the next turnset.

Hook up the Axe and Spear near Moscow with the Chariot to form a pillaging stack and head for the copper first, followed by targets of opportunity.

My thoughts exactly.

Switch all cities to troop production, cats and axes.

Maybe WC in Thebes since they can get to the front faster? WC can mop up after collateral damage from cats. Just a thought, no problem if you choose differently.

I have included a dot map of this site and another future site SW of Thebes. .

Do we want the sugar or the cows in the blue dot city? Seems we can't have both.

I have included a map of Russia also. I don't really like the locations of Novgorod or Yaroslavl'. We will need to discuss whether to keep or raze these cities.

Could move Yaros to settle on the cows, pick up the incense, less overlap with Moscow. Also, could raze Nov and Rostov, and replace with a single city. Moving Nov 1 south might make Rostov unecessary. However, we might want to take a look at how much infrasturcture is already built (there is a way to set the map so that max zoom into a city will show its buildings) before we go on a razing frenzy.

Yes, it does look like the three musketeers for this one.

dV

 

[da_Vinci]

I have just been installing Warlords on my PC to give WOTM 5 a shot ... and AlanH announces the signup for SGOTM 4, a Warlords exclusive. So how many of us are "Warlords ready"? Can the GK field a credible team for that one?

Funny game, the goal is to get Gandhi (we are Vikings in this one) to win a space race, while we are at permanent war with him!

So which GK are considering this ... I am game if the rest are.

dV

 

[da_Vinci]

Maybe we should think about a spoiler writeup? I thought that the verbatim text of R1 and my first after action reports might be a good start, and go from there? Just a thought.

(actually, just hiding my post in Murky Waters a bit with this one)

dV

 

[Conquistador 63]

Too tired to write anything useful now, just finished and submitted WOTM5. That might at least answer one of dV's questions. Feel free to go and play Ronnie.

 

[Ronnie1]

I'm going to get Warlords sometime in the next couple of weeks. I might as well start with SWOTM. Count me in!

I'm off to play SGOTM1 now!

 

[Ronnie1]

Most of the important data is in the autolog.
Here are the highlights.
Great Scientist born in Thebes on T143, decided with 510+ turns left that an Academy in our future commerce city was the way to go. Hind sight, I might have saved him until we could Lightbulb Philosophy.

The pillage stack did its job and Cathy stopped producing Axes. But the small stack is now split and we need to keep an eye on the copper so she can't start working it again, very doubtful but possible.

Moscow was fairly tough, 4 Archers, 2 with CG1, it took 2 turns after defenses were at 0% to complete.

Thats the good news. The not so good news is that our research rate was down to 10% before the influx of gold from the capture. I have both Thebes and Helio building Research in stead of troops currently, but that can change as we see fit.

After getting Alphabet on T151, we had that plus Math on Cyrus and Alph. + Const on Gandhi. Cyrus would only give Mystscism for Math, I figured something was better than nothing so I took it. 1 Turn later I traded Alpha for Poly, Sailing and Archery to Cyrus also. I started researching Literature next before I realized the state of our economy. Hind sight, maybe should have gone for Currency next.

Cathy doesn't have much left, 2 defenders in each city last time I checked, all archers except 1 spear.

Our troops are healing in Moscow and heading for the front, except for the WC that I accidentally got to close to the barb archer S of Thebes, but he should not lose that fight.

The settler is still in the que in Helio, I accidentally put a few more turns into him after one of the axes, maybe that will keep the hammers from beginning to fade. At least that sounds like a reasonable justification!

One other thing, Gandhi offered us pigs for cows, I accepted, but 1-2 turns later the deal was cancelled, barbs must have pillaged his pigs.

The Autolog

Spoiler :

Turn 137
Heliopolis begins: Catapult
Research begun: Alphabet
Thebes finishes: War Chariot
War Chariot loses to: Russian Axeman (5.00/5)
Chariot near Moscow killed in defense.

Turn 138 (430 BC)
Thebes begins: War Chariot
St. Petersburg begins: Granary
St. Petersburg begins: Barracks

Turn 139 (415 BC)
Memphis finishes: Axeman
Heliopolis's borders expand
St. Petersburg's borders expand

Turn 140 (400 BC)
Memphis begins: Catapult
Axeman defeats (2.60/5): Russian Axeman
Axeman defending in St Petes.

Turn 141 (385 BC)
Axeman promoted: City Raider II
Axeman promoted: Combat I
War Chariot promoted: Combat I
War Chariot defeats (1.20/5): Barbarian Axeman
S of Thebes
Thebes finishes: War Chariot
Heliopolis finishes: Catapult

Turn 142 (370 BC)
Thebes begins: Catapult
Xi Ling Shi (Great Scientist) born in Thebes
Axeman loses to: Russian Axeman (0.40/5)
Defending in St Petes.

Turn 143 (355 BC)
Axeman defeats (5.00/5): Russian Axeman
Thebes finishes: Academy
Counter attack S of St Petes.

Turn 144 (340 BC)

Turn 145 (325 BC)
Axeman promoted: Shock

Turn 146 (310 BC)
Catapult promoted: Combat I
Heliopolis begins: Axeman
Memphis finishes: Catapult
War Chariot loses to: Russian Axeman (5.00/5)
Defending in St Petes.

Turn 147 (295 BC)
Memphis begins: Axeman
Catapult defeats (5.00/5): Russian Axeman
Thebes finishes: Catapult
Counter attack at St Petes. This was a little dicey. The cat was the only unit in St Petes at the time, I had a WC that could have had another shot at the Axe if the cat had lost, but it won with ~10% odds of success.

Turn 148 (280 BC)
Thebes begins: Axeman

Turn 149 (265 BC)
War Chariot defeats (2.90/5): Russian Archer
Coming out of Moscow towards St Petes.

Thebes grows: 6

Turn 150 (250 BC)
War Chariot promoted: Medic I
Catapult promoted: City Raider I
Thebes begins: War Chariot
Tech learned: Alphabet
Thebes finishes: War Chariot
Heliopolis finishes: Axeman

Turn 151 (235 BC)
Research begun: Mysticism
Research begun: Polytheism
Research begun: Literature
Tech learned: Mysticism
Heliopolis begins: Axeman
Thebes finishes: Axeman
Memphis finishes: Axeman

Turn 152 (220 BC)
Thebes begins: Axeman
Thebes begins: War Chariot
Memphis begins: Catapult
War Chariot defeats (5.00/5): Russian Archer
War Chariot defeats (5.00/5): Russian Archer
Both outside Moscow, 1 heading from Moscow to St Petes and the other coming from Novgorod towards the front.
Tech learned: Polytheism
Tech learned: Sailing
Tech learned: Archery
Thebes's borders expand

Turn 153 (205 BC)
Catapult defeats (2.60/5): Russian Archer
On horses outside St Petes. The last combat outside the city limits of Moscow!!
War Chariot promoted: Medic I
St. Petersburg finishes: Barracks

Turn 154 (190 BC)
St. Petersburg begins: Granary
St. Petersburg begins: Archer
Catapult promoted: City Raider I
Catapult promoted: City Raider II
Thebes finishes: War Chariot
Heliopolis finishes: Axeman

Turn 155 (175 BC)
Catapult promoted: City Raider I
Catapult loses to: Russian Archer (1.47/3)
Axeman loses to: Russian Archer (0.48/3)
War Chariot promoted: Combat III
War Chariot defeats (1.20/5): Russian Archer
War Chariot defeats (3.10/5): Russian Archer
Axeman defeats (1.20/5): Russian Archer
Heliopolis begins: Archer
Research begun: Currency
Research begun: Literature

Turn 156 (160 BC)
Axeman promoted: City Raider I
Axeman loses to: Russian Archer (2.04/3)
Catapult defeats (1.85/5): Russian Archer
Hinduism has spread: Moscow (Russian Empire)
Hinduism has spread: Moscow
Captured Moscow (Catherine)
War Chariot promoted: Combat I

So the autolog doesn't quite show as much as an upload log would.
I have edited in a brief summary of the combat. Edits in White

Also, I had to pop rush in Thebes once as the pop got over the happy limit.

 

[Ronnie1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie1
I have included a dot map of this site and another future site SW of Thebes. .

Do we want the sugar or the cows in the blue dot city? Seems we can't have both.

Not sure which way to go here, the cows might be better.

Could move Yaros to settle on the cows, pick up the incense, less overlap with Moscow. Also, could raze Nov and Rostov, and replace with a single city. Moving Nov 1 south might make Rostov unecessary. However, we might want to take a look at how much infrasturcture is already built (there is a way to set the map so that max zoom into a city will show its buildings) before we go on a razing frenzy.

The problem with the incense is that I don't know if we can work it without a city on the that landmass to connect it. Maybe we can get Murky to run a test for us!!

After seeing our economic troubles at the end of my last turnset, I would vote for fewer but better city locations. It will only get worse with conquest. We need to start on our commerce city right away and switch our production out of Thebes. We are going to need some luxuries to support higher pop levels throughout.

 

[da_Vinci]

I'm going to get Warlords sometime in the next couple of weeks. I might as well start with SWOTM. Count me in!

I'm off to play SGOTM1 now!

So, sounds like a quorum is building for warlords ... IIRC Igelkott actually prefered warlords for SGOTM 3, so maybe we are up to at least four of us?

dV

 

[da_Vinci]

Odd, my game computer does not want to connect to the forum, but my productivity computer does just fine! Have to figure this out, or I will have to move files between the machines (what a pain!).

dV

 

[Conquistador 63]

Well done, Ronnie1!

I looked at the save and caught up with the posts. Interesting the choice of setting cities to research at this point of the game, I've never done that myself. Under the eficiency point of view, I would understand keeping it in Thebes (75% multiplier to beakers), but I'd keep Helio building whatever needed (be it troops, settlers or workers).

On dotmapping and city placement, I'd consider razing all russian cities now, rebuilding 1S of Nov as dV suggested. On mainland I like Ronnie1's suggestions, although I might prefer the cow over sugar. How about an eskimo city to grab silver/horse? Combined with forges (MC is 14 turns of research at 100%), and the gems from Russia, + 4 happiness. That would be huge. Build order: orange (for cottaging & poprushing)/eskimo (for silver)/blue (2 food & 4 hills=troop production)?
Meanwhile, temples (priesthood is 2 turns of research) could help our cities a little. But I definitely wouldn't trade away construction or alpha for priesthood. Btw it is on the path to CoL, we'll need them CH's. So, after Lit, Priest/CoL/MC?

Now about SWOTM. I'm in for it, even though I'm not too thrilled about its settings. Also, I'm a total noob in Warlords. This practice game might help us learn a little about locked war settings. Btw, Gandhi is locked at peace with us in this game (we cannot declare war). Or is it that we are locked at peace with him? Might be different, not sure.

 

[Ronnie1]

Interesting the choice of setting cities to research at this point of the game, I've never done that myself. Under the eficiency point of view, I would understand keeping it in Thebes (75% multiplier to beakers), but I'd keep Helio building whatever needed (be it troops, settlers or workers).

I started to worry about our economy right before I took Moscow, science was down to 10%. It seemed like I had lots of units to play with but was seriously lacking in the ability to raise commerce and science. We have only been set to research for ~2 turns if I remember right. If we need more troops, I certainly won't be the one to argue!!

Now about SWOTM. I'm in for it, even though I'm not too thrilled about its settings. Also, I'm a total noob in Warlords. This practice game might help us learn a little about locked war settings. Btw, Gandhi is locked at peace with us in this game (we cannot declare war). Or is it that we are locked at peace with him? Might be different, not sure.

I don't even own it yet, the ultimate definition of noob!

As for the permenant peace with Gandhi in this game, I hadn't even considered going to war with him so I never thought to look at the options.
That could prove to make domination difficult, as he already controls a significant portion of that continent. If that is the case we are going to need Cyrus's land for sure.

Meanwhile, temples (priesthood is 2 turns of research) could help our cities a little. But I definitely wouldn't trade away construction or alpha for priesthood. Btw it is on the path to CoL, we'll need them CH's. So, after Lit, Priest/CoL/MC?

I like this tech path!! Are we going after Great Library?

 

[Ronnie1]

Here is a link to a pretty good stratey artice.
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/intermediate_gambits.php#riverside

 

[da_Vinci]

Odd, my game computer does not want to connect to the forum, but my productivity computer does just fine! Have to figure this out, or I will have to move files between the machines (what a pain!).

Solved this one (with Gyathaar's help), downloaded the save.

Can play tonight if some questions are answered:

Do we want to whip colosseums in a few cities? That way we could keep producing food, pop would regrow quickly. That would allow us to start working the two cottages in Helio to get the commerece started, and still avoid idle citizens. I think we will want all the happiness we can get with the perm war issue.

Do we agree to raze both Nov and Rostov and rebuild on the desert 1 south of current Nov? It is a rather food poor site, but we could irrigation chain it later.

Yaroslav'l ... to raze, or not to raze? I am tempted to keep it, as the cows and seafood will allow it to grow to fill all coastal squares for commerce, then run some specialists. Hate to lose the cows by settling on them, and a later city SW of the incense can pick up the other resources.

So let me know what you think, or else you will have to live with my judgement!

dV

 

[Conquistador 63]

My 2¢:
I might be wrong, but I never build colosseum, if I can help it. Temples are cheaper and have the same effect (until culture slider kicks in). Also it allows us to hire priests.
Re. Yaro: isn't its cow able to help Moscow instead? Also, not sure but might be better to work incense/clams with a city in the neighbouring continent.

But, as always, I have no problem living with your wise judgement!

 

[da_Vinci]

My 2¢:
I might be wrong, but I never build colosseum, if I can help it. Temples are cheaper and have the same effect (until culture slider kicks in). Also it allows us to hire priests.
Re. Yaro: isn't its cow able to help Moscow instead? Also, not sure but might be better to work incense/clams with a city in the neighbouring continent.

But, as always, I have no problem living with your wise judgement!

It is the cow south of Yaros that is at issue, out of range of Moscow.

I tend to do colosseums as a last resort too. But in this case, we have access to them before we have access to temples given our tech rush to cats. With this permanent war with Capac, I expect WW might be trouble (will it persists even after we wipe out Cathy?). So we might want them sooner rather than later.

So rather than having to keep our population growth on idle, maybe whipping cols in this unique case makes sense? This IS the game to try new things, isn't it?

Or, could halt lit for 2 turns to get Priesthood, then just get temples instead of Cols. But, poprush of 1 does not solve the happy cap as well as poprush of 2. Have to think about this one.

dV

 

[Ronnie1]

From what I have learned about WW, it does not have much effect until you start losing troops in enemy territory. This allows you to fight a defensive war almost indefinitely. Hence, I would have to agree with C63 that I would avoid wasting pop or hammers on Coloseums at this point. I like dv's idea of picking up Priesthood better. Because of the economic situation, would we consider extorting a tech from Cathy for a brief respite, allowing us to get a little better handle on our economy before we put her out of her misery?

As far as the city locations are concerned, 1 instead of 2 in the south makes more sense to me. Yaroslavl is a good jumping off point for the other continent, I don't think I like the idea of settling on the cows, it doesn't seem like that move would create a benefit worthy of razing the city from its current location.

 

[da_Vinci]

I played to a point were most of our consensus was achieved ... which ran 28 turns (hope you all don't mind, but with just three of us, more turns per set seems reasonable). Nutshell, Cathy is dead, made peace once for Ironworking (so we could cut jungle for the gems). Only lost two cats taking the three cities. Picked up monarchy and monotheism for construction. Economy was tough, took pop off hammers and onto commerce, was at 10% sci a few turns, but lighthouses allowd me to work coast, and I got the gems mined. No settlers with the tight economy. Code of laws due next turn. Lots of cities making research out of hammers, so might switch out of that now (courthouses!)

Turn 157 Great Lighthouse built elsewhere.

Turn 158 Gandhi asks for alpha, I refused.

Turn 159 poprush several temples. I had detoured to priesthood. Also one colosseum in Thebes, as it had no religion for a temple and I just could not stand the pop stagnation.

Turn 162 took Yaros, made peace for IW

Turn 165 Cyrus asks for const, offers monarchy. The answer to our happy issues, I say yes.

Turn 170 const to Gandhi for Monotheism (before he got it elsewhere).

Turn 171 learned lit. Did not start Great Lib yet as focus was on getting to Code of Laws.

Turn 173 back to war with Cathy ... looking for conquest gold.

Novgorod and Rostov both razed.

Be sure to review city production, as several are on research, which can be changed now. Prebuilt roads to the silver and the rice (next city sites).



Autolog:

Spoiler :

Heliopolis begins: Catapult
Thebes begins: War Chariot
Research begun: Priesthood
War Chariot defeats (3.60/5): Barbarian Archer

Turn 157 (145 BC)
War Chariot promoted: Shock
Heliopolis begins: Colosseum
Catapult promoted: City Raider II
Axeman promoted: City Raider I
Memphis begins: Colosseum

Turn 158 (130 BC)
Axeman promoted: City Raider I
Tech learned: Priesthood
Memphis finishes: Catapult
St. Petersburg's borders expand
St. Petersburg finishes: Archer

Turn 159 (115 BC)
Research begun: Literature
Memphis begins: Jewish Temple
St. Petersburg begins: Hindu Temple
St. Petersburg begins: Lighthouse
User comment: Poprush (2) temple in Memphis
Archer promoted: City Garrison I
War Chariot promoted: Combat I
Heliopolis begins: Hindu Temple
Thebes begins: Colosseum
User comment: Poprush (2) temple in Helio
Memphis finishes: Jewish Temple
Heliopolis finishes: Hindu Temple

Turn 160 (100 BC)
Memphis begins: Lighthouse

Turn 161 (85 BC)
Memphis grows: 3
Heliopolis finishes: Catapult

Turn 162 (70 BC)
Moscow begins: Library
Moscow begins: Granary
Moscow begins: Barracks
Moscow begins: Hindu Temple
User comment: Poprush (2) temple Moscow
Catapult defeats (0.50/5): Russian Archer
Axeman defeats (1.40/5): Russian Archer
Axeman defeats (3.20/5): Russian Archer
Captured Yaroslavl' (Catherine)
User comment: Took Yaros with no losses
War ends: Russian Empire
Tech learned: Iron Working
User comment: Peace with Cathy for Iron Working (chop jungle)
User comment: Poprush (2) Colosseum in Thebes (no religion there)
Heliopolis begins: Lighthouse
Thebes finishes: Colosseum
Heliopolis grows: 4
Moscow finishes: Hindu Temple

Turn 163 (55 BC)
Moscow begins: Barracks
Axeman promoted: City Raider II
Catapult promoted: City Raider I
Axeman promoted: City Raider II
Thebes finishes: War Chariot
Judaism has spread: Hittite (Persian Empire)

Turn 164 (40 BC)
Thebes begins: Axeman
Yaroslavl' begins: Lighthouse
Axeman promoted: City Raider I
War Chariot promoted: Combat I
Thebes grows: 3

Turn 165 (25 BC)
Tech learned: Monarchy
User comment: Cyrus asks to get const for monarchy, I agreed
Memphis grows: 4
Moscow's borders expand

Turn 166 (10 BC)

Turn 167 (5 AD)
Thebes grows: 4
Heliopolis grows: 5
St. Petersburg finishes: Lighthouse

Turn 168 (20 AD)
Catapult promoted: City Raider I
Memphis finishes: Lighthouse

Turn 169 (35 AD)
Memphis begins: Galley
Memphis grows: 5

Turn 170 (50 AD)
Tech learned: Monotheism
User comment: Const to Gandhi for Monotheism
St. Petersburg begins: Hindu Missionary
Memphis begins: Work Boat
Heliopolis finishes: Lighthouse

Turn 171 (65 AD)
Tech learned: Literature
Thebes grows: 5
Thebes finishes: Axeman

Turn 172 (80 AD)
Research begun: Code of Laws
Thebes begins: Settler
Yaroslavl''s borders expand
Christianity founded in a distant land

Turn 173 (95 AD)
War declared: Russian Empire
Memphis grows: 6
Heliopolis grows: 6
Judaism has spread: Yaroslavl'

Turn 174 (110 AD)
War Chariot defeats (2.20/5): Russian Archer
Axeman defeats (1.50/5): Russian Archer

Turn 175 (125 AD)
War Chariot promoted: Combat III
Thebes grows: 6
Memphis finishes: Work Boat
Judaism has spread: Gordium (Persian Empire)

Turn 176 (140 AD)
Yaroslavl' grows: 3
Hinduism has spread: Bombay (Indian Empire)
Hinduism has spread: Lahore (Indian Empire)
Hinduism has spread: Hyderabad (Indian Empire)

Turn 177 (155 AD)
Catapult loses to: Russian Archer (1.86/3)
Catapult defeats (4.20/5): Russian Archer
Catapult defeats (2.60/5): Russian Archer
Catapult defeats (3.30/5): Russian Archer
Axeman defeats (1.80/5): Russian Archer
Axeman defeats (2.90/5): Russian Archer
Axeman defeats (5.00/5): Russian Spearman
Judaism has spread: Rostov (Russian Empire)
Judaism has spread: Rostov
Captured Rostov (Catherine)
Razed Rostov
Judaism has spread: Rostov
Rostov lost
Memphis begins: Galley
Memphis grows: 7
Heliopolis grows: 7
Moscow grows: 4

Turn 178 (170 AD)
Axeman promoted: City Raider II
Catapult promoted: City Raider III
Catapult promoted: City Raider II

Turn 179 (185 AD)
War Chariot defeats (4.35/5): Russian Archer
Hinduism has spread: Delhi (Indian Empire)

Turn 180 (200 AD)

Turn 181 (215 AD)
Thebes grows: 7

Turn 182 (230 AD)
War Chariot defeats (2.90/5): Russian Archer

Turn 183 (245 AD)
Catapult loses to: Russian Archer (0.72/3)
Catapult defeats (3.10/5): Russian Archer
Catapult defeats (0.75/5): Russian Archer
Axeman defeats (4.30/5): Russian Spearman
Axeman defeats (4.20/5): Russian Archer
Judaism has spread: Novgorod (Russian Empire)
Judaism has spread: Novgorod
Captured Novgorod (Catherine)
Russian Empire eliminated
Razed Novgorod
Judaism has spread: Novgorod
Novgorod lost

Turn 184 (260 AD)
User comment: Gems to Gandhi for Silk
Research begun: Calendar
Research begun: Compass
Research begun: Metal Casting
Research begun: Machinery
Research begun: Optics
Research begun: Astronomy
Research begun: Code of Laws

dV

 

[Ronnie1]

Nice job da_Vinci!

I think we need to finish the settler in Helio before the hammers degrade, and I would probably build the next city on the desert square SE of Thebes before I went for the rice. The desert city will grow faster because of the food resources and I think we want to get it up and running as our future GP site.

Edit: I just noticed the Iron near the Rice, how does this effect city placement? I think I might prefer the food from the Sugar over the hammers from the Cows now. What are your thoughts on this?

Cyrus is obviously heading that galley with the settler towards our territory, he is probably our next target as the only civ we can reach before Astronomy. How do we want to prepare for the next conquest? We obviously need a few galleys to get across the straight, it looks like our attack stack has enough for an initial push at Cyrus. But it will be difficult, or at least time consuming to keep feeding troops over the water.

 

[Ronnie1]

I found this in a post while lurking, "I assume everyone knows how to chain units across the ocean in a turn or two by uploading from boat to boat?"

I know I used to be able to do this in CivIII, but have not been able to load from boat to boat in CivIV. Can someone help me out with this one?

The Real Ms Beyond looks as though they have passed the window of opportunity to beat our date!!!

 

[Conquistador 63]

In GOTM14 I noticed I could ferry troops from one boat to the other, provided one boat (maybe both, not 100% sure) was inside a city. Not if both were already at the sea. But I might be missing something.

@dV: I haven't opened the save yet, but I can already tell: good job!