SGOTM 03 - Gypsy Kings

Ronnie1 · Dec 2, 2006

Ater exploring the wilderness for 60 years, a group of adventurers settles a city and names it Moscow. :king:

Work is immediately started on mighty warriors, to protect this new empire from all who would try to destroy it. At the same time, the wise ones of Moscow turn their attention to the oceans, and begin searching for ways to harvest the bounty that lies within. A few brave souls are sent to further explore the uncharted wilderness, hoping to discover treasure, in all its forms. Many discoveries are made while treking through the vast jungle, beautifully colored crystals, grains for food and health, and beasts that look as though they might be eaten, or used to help work the fertile soil that surrounds them. And vast oceans, everywhere! The brave scouts headed north, and when they are stopped by those seas, they head west, when the seas show up here as well, south is the only direction they can go. Just when it appeared that they might be free of the jungle, the unthinkable befell these poor brave souls. A mighty black panther appeared out of nowhere, and had 'em for lunch! :cry:

Now the warriors of Moscow have taken it upon themselves to begin searching for the beasts hoping to avenge those lost to the jungle.
Meanwhile, the wise souls of Moscow have discovered that with proper training, nets can be used to catch the fish in the oceans, and this will help it to grow. Work was started immediately on a boat to undertake the task. And then, to everyones surprise, travelers from the SE appeared on the horizon. They said they represented a man named Alexander, and peace was declared by each of the new neighbors. The empire is founded and we are not alone!

The save is here:http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Gypsy_Kings_SG003_BC3400_01.Civ4SavedGame

The session turn log is here:

Spoiler :

Roster order is

Ronnie1 - just played
da_Vinci - up now
Coquistador63 - on deck
Joemama - in the hole
Igelkott - waiting
Confusion - waiting
Scout214 - still waiting

da_Vinci · Dec 2, 2006

Hi All,

Prince da_Vinci is preparing to take command of the next phase of Gypsalian glory! What we know of our world is summarized in the maps posted below.

The satellite imagery (not bad for 3400 BC eh?!

) shows us a uniquely configured land mass, giving rise to a possible defensive strategy that allows us to bypass archery (at least for now) even if no copper or horse is nearby. It should be possible to fogbust the northern land to the Panamanian isthmus with two warriors. Unforturnately, the square where the settler originally started appears to be in fog as well, so a third warrior is required to fogbust in the SW. This would suppress barbarian activity and eliminate the risk of barb archers overwhelming our warrior army early on. The warrior at the isthsmus would be well positioned to resume exploring once homeland defenses are more solid.

What do the generals in the pentagram think of this as a mission objective? Particularly C63, who will take over the operation in 2800BC?

The close up map reveals all known units in the game.

How fast can we build the warriors? The current production in Moscow adds 1 pop in 3 turns, workboat in 9 and then a warrior in 5. After the pop increase in 3, WB is six away, cut to 3 if pop works a 1F 2H hill. So we get workboat in 6. Work the clams (1 less food but one more commerce), or the fish with the first WB? Staying on the hill, the warrior comes in 3 more (turn 9) Putting two citizens on hills should get a third warrior out in 4 more. This is turn 13 of the set, and BW should have come in. At this point, I think a post and discussion is in order, as whether we have copper in range or not is a big fork in the road.

After turn 13 of the set, we could push a second workboat out in about 7 turns if we work two hills. At the end of the 20 turn set, we could have three warriors fogbusting the land, two workboats harvesting the sea, and be in a positon to rapidly build worker or settler in the capital. Working the hills does slow pop growth, and perhaps is will be almost as fast to work 1 hill and 1 seafood and work the second hill with the pop 3 citizen. For that idea, WB on the fish makes more sense.

The Moscow alternate production illustrates how working the hill cuts production time in half.

Also, what do we want to research after BW? If no copper, go for AH to look for horses? Maybe just decide in a discussion after BW comes in.

Thought I would discuss this before I start, in case someone has strong feelings about doing something different (like a worker or settler during my turnset).

I expect to play this tomorrow after getting feedback on these issues, and post the result of BW (copper or not?) for discussion. With prompt feedback, I'll be handing this one off on Monday.

If you have not guessed, this is the "I got it" post

dV

Conquistador 63 · Dec 3, 2006

da_Vinci said:
Sounds like whipping is like voting: whip early, whip often. D)

This insightful comment is IMO the most relevant advice for the next turn: upon researching BW, convert to slavery and whip whatever we're producing, just remember to have at least 1 hammer already invested to avoid the penalty. 1 workboat= 45h= 1 pop, but that pop will be easily regained by working another fish or clam tile soon.

da_Vinci said:
The whipping tradeoff is population reduction, and potentially less commerce for science (lost hammers are less an issue as whipping gives you hammers).

So I assume the idea is to whip at a high population equilibrium, rather than at a low one? Which would mean whipping would wait for some population threshold in a city?

Or maybe not. I could see whipping a second workboat in Moscow, even at a relatively low population.

dV

Exactly. Ideally we would want to whip close to unhappiness border but the lower the pop, less food is required to grow 1 pop, so there is a trade-off involved. The thing is, in the near future, our most productive tiles will be the ones which are food-rich. Also, in this game (reading it from one of your screenies) it takes 33 food to grow from pop1 to pop2. We get 45h to go from pop2 to pop1. :whipped:

Doing the math, we will want to whip each 15 turns, as in the quote Ronnie1 has presented to us a few post above.

Also, fog-busting with a few warriors is the way to go.

@Ronnie1: good job and cool write-up. :goodjob:

Ronnie1 · Dec 3, 2006

@Prince da_Vinci et all,
I would say early growth is primary need. From all the strategy articles I've read, we should try to max our city pops ASAP. Given that goal, working the grassland forrest, Moscow will grow to size 2 on turn 23. Then working the other grass forrest for 6F/4H/1C the workboat will be ready on turn 25. Travel WB on turn 26 to fish and switch to either 1 or both 2H hill tiles to speed the warrior to finish in 2 turns. Then go right back to another workboat, working the fish and one hill forrest for 8F/4H/2C. This should move BW up by 1 turn to bring it in on turn 33. Don't switch to slavery until right before we need to rush our first whatever we need to rush first. As soon as the second WB is completed start on a worker. We won't see any barbs until about T50, so we dont need to many early units.

I think we should settle the original site for our second city ASAP. After the worker, I'd go warrior-settler-warrior-WB for new city. Second city start with WB for exploring and then worker. We will need lots of workers to hack through the jungle.

Are we going to go after one of the early wonders? I'd say it's a risky proposition at best. The Industrious AI's dominated the early wonders in all of my test games. The rest of the AI's will pump out early settlers and begin to fill up this map. If we dedicate Moscow to a wonder early, I'm not sure if we'll be able to produce troops when we need them. I suppose we can always switch off of the wonder if we need to. City 2 will produce settlers very fast once it is up to max size.

That brings us back to research. Happiness will be our limiting factor on city size. The closest luxury item is the gems which will be available for mining after Moscow's culture expands on turn 77, if we have Ironworking, very unlikely by then. I say we should go for pottery early so we can use the :whipped:

and recover quickly. After BW, The Wheel then Pottery? If we want to go after a wonder, which one? Pyramids are great, but expensive. Great Lighthouse will add mega commerce on a water map like this one. Oracle is a very long shot W/O marble in my opinion. Stonehenge is cheap and will give early culture boost W/O religion. Research path totally alters depending on which way we want to go.

My future city placement ideas!

Ronnie1 · Dec 3, 2006

The article that dV pointed us towards about the whipping bug/technique is really great. What I gathered from it was this; 1) either whip on the first turn after you have at least 1 hammer invested or 2) wait until you have just under a mutiple of 30 hammers remaining to get the most overflow to the next build. Also, the modifiers for the leaders are taken into effect when whipping, if we whip a granary or a harbor we'll get double the hammers per pop point and I think double hammers on the overflow. I need to do some more experimenting but I'm having trouble with worldbuilder right now and may need re-install.

da_Vinci · Dec 3, 2006

@ Ronnie1: were you working the grassland forest in Moscow when you saved the game? When I first opened it to look around and post the data for the pre-mission discussion, Moscow was working the clams for 2F 2C. But when I opened it again to look at your latest tile working suggestions (no moves etc. and no end turn executions either time, Alan

), Moscow opened working a forest grassland.

So maybe the tiles worked get reshuffled as the saves are loaded by the next player? If so, that is important to know.

About the whipping exploit/bug, if you look at the allowed/disallowed exploit threat in GOTM, the bug part is fixed in HOF mod. The bug used to be that the pop killed was adjusted for the game speed, but the hammers were not, so you could get 60 hammers for 1 pop if you played it right.

dV

da_Vinci · Dec 3, 2006

It seems like we have a difference of opinion on whether to whip ASAP (C63 advises this) or to get pop to max first (R1 advises this if I have read him right). Do you two want to debate that one?

I am inclined to finish the WB and the second warrior while working the clams at 2F 2C. pop 3 comes in 3 turns, and I might work a coastal 1F 2C to speed BW (if I can still finish WB and warrior before BW). Or might rotate tiles each turn (I've got little else to do :lol:

) Goal would be to be able to whip the second WB as soon as slavery is available. but what I could do is post some screens of the situation after BW, which will include the following issues to resolve: what to research next, whip second WB or not, start a settler or a worker, or keep pop growing and build something else.

If human barbs really don't appear until turn 50, then I might hold off on the third warrior for a while, but since original settler start is in fog, I would rather have fog-busted that square (does that also stop generation of animals? Don't need a bear to eat the settler) if that is city 2 (which I agree with due to no jungle to deal with).

I had exactly the same ideas about city sites, with one alternative site for city 3 ... see screenie

I think I have enough consensus about objectives for the next 10 to 13 turns to get started. Will stop to consult when we see the status of copper.

dV

da_Vinci · Dec 3, 2006

Hi all,

Prince da_Vinci reporting in regarding mission progress (see screenshots) at 2980 (7 turns left in this mission):

Taming the wilderness has been accomplished, and our settlers can roam unimpeded north or south of Moscow as the council sees fit. There is one unbusted fog square in the north. Optimal fogbusting will require one more warrior - do we need to make it?

Harvesting the sea is 50% accomplished. A workboat could be whipped in 2 turns (1 for revolution, 1 to whip) to complete the seafood harvest. Moscow will regrow the pop in 4 turns from now (two after the whip). This seems to be the best next step.

After that, how about a settler? Back to the original settler start makes sense as there is no jungle that needs clearing, but the actual settler movement will be for C63 to execute.

I regret to inform my superiors that there is no copper in sight. We are 1 turn beyond the bronze working discovery (done just to be sure that no copper is correct). I began wheel, as we need that to hook up any resources eventually, but perhaps a switch to AH in search of horses would be worthwhile? Knowing horse locations before committing next settler may be useful.

Good news includes the fact that we are ahead of Alexander in score (73 vs 69). We surpass him in GNP and food production, he has us on MFG goods and power. Of the top 5 cities (we are not one), only one is size 3, rest are size 2).

Also, our score of 73 at 2980 BC appears to put us right with the leaders according to the progress chart (which we have to take with a grain of salt).

To see if it works, here is a post of the autolog:

Spoiler :

Awaiting further instructions ...

dV

Ronnie1 · Dec 3, 2006

@dV, I looked at that spot also, but kind of figured we could work those fish form the other side. Still undecided because of the untimely demise of our poor scout.

On the whipping issue, because of the overflow potential, I would wait until we get pottery to start whipping. Example: If we whip a warrior for 1 pop and have 20H left over, if the next build is a granary/harbor we get 40 towards that build from the overflow and double the number of hammers being worked. So Moscow at say size 4, working 2 mined hills (because the forests were chopped for a settler or wonder

), now we get 40 form overflow+16= 56H of 90 on the first turn leaving only 3 more turns to complete the build and another great carry over.

@ Ronnie1: were you working the grassland forest in Moscow when you saved the game? When I first opened it to look around and post the data for the pre-mission discussion, Moscow was working the clams for 2F 2C. But when I opened it again to look at your latest tile working suggestions (no moves etc. and no end turn executions either time, Alan ), Moscow opened working a forest grassland.

I thought I left it working the grass forrest, that was my intent. I think I did the calculations right in my earlier post, (grow on T23, work 2 grass forrests and WB complete on T26, work 1 maybe 2 hill forrest(s) for 2 turns to save a turn on the warrior, then work fish and hill forrest for 8F/4H/2C while building second boat and waiting for BW at T33).

I created a new test map of the known land so far and played about 100 turns, I think we can get Stonehenge and maybe the Great Lighthouse as well. After BW, we research Mysticism then Masonry. After the second WB start on a worker, when finished, start chopping a hill forrest while starting WB#3, but use the other allowed exploit of putting the chops into a settler, before the chop is complete switch to the settler, you have to have at least 1 active unit, or clear the worker action at the end of the previous turn, or there is nothing to stop the worker from completing the chop automatically before you can switch. Finish the settler build at that point and start the worker on the stone quarry. After the settler is built, finish the WB#3 and go for Stonehenge. Ooops after looking at my notes, most of that took place between turns 41-65. I actually started SH on T67, right when the quarry got hooked up, and it would only take 12 turns to complete, but I added a chop to it also and finished in 8. Moscow grew to size 4 in the middle of that build and I discovered pottery as well and started on sailing. After SH, I did the warrior pop rush with the over flow into the granary and then built a lighthouse I think(it's getting late :crazyeye:

) chopped and popped another settler and then went after the Great Lighthouse.

Overall research order was Fishing-BW-Myst-Mason-Wheel-Pottery-Sailing-Writing. Bed time! :confused:

Ronnie1 · Dec 3, 2006

@dV
We are like 2 ships passing in the night. I say we consider my above post as option1. I would work a hill to speed up the WB and then go imediately for a worker when that is done! Bummer about the copper, but not overly surprised(Alan and Gyathaar at work). A fortified warrior on the northern jungle hill should hold barbs back for a while.

Confusion · Dec 3, 2006

i think that there will be no iron or copper on our island, i think that way because of the victory conditions are peacefull (and this i s a custom map), but im pleased to see 4 gems reasources, they can give us huge bonus to reaserach when we mine them.

we should consider reaserching IV sooner that will alow us to chop that jungle on gems

da_Vinci · Dec 3, 2006

Ronnie1 said:
@dV, I looked at that spot also, but kind of figured we could work those fish form the other side. Still undecided because of the untimely demise of our poor scout.

Yes, I think we could work the fish from the west. The alt site does have the cows in the "skinny square" (what you get before the fat cross) if culture for expansion was hard to come by.

Ronnie1 said:
On the whipping issue, because of the overflow potential, I would wait until we get pottery to start whipping.

I would say that might be best as a general rule, but I think we have a special case here in whipping the second WB in Moscow. I can whip it in 2 (or 3 depending on how you count these things) turns, for just 1 pop, and the pop will be regained in 1 or 2 turns from the whip. Now we have to ask, are we better off having 3 pop without a boat on the clams, or two pop with a boat on the clams (or 4 vs. 3, etc)? The extra pop must feed itself, so if it works 2F there is only one H or C added to our net production (output minus cost), and we are +5 F for pop growth. If it works a 1F 2 H or C, then we are 2 H or C added but at a cost of 1 F (now we are +4 F) for again a net 1 H or C.

With pop 2 working the two improved seafoods, we don't get the 1 added H or C, but we get 2 more food (now +7 F for growth). At +7F, I think the next pop comes in 5 turns (vs. 7 turns if only +5 F). Also, if pop costs 33 F and whip gives 45 H, then 1F = 1.4x H on the New York Whip Exchange. So think of the 2 extra food as potentially 3 extra hammers!

I think this is C63's line of thinking as well. I hope to hear what he thinks before I wrap up the last 7 of my turns. See how whipping the WB at the start, then following your plan above would work out.

Ronnie1 said:
I thought I left it working the grass forrest, that was my intent. I think I did the calculations right in my earlier post, (grow on T23, work 2 grass forrests and WB complete on T26, work 1 maybe 2 hill forrest(s) for 2 turns to save a turn on the warrior, then work fish and hill forrest for 8F/4H/2C while building second boat and waiting for BW at T33).

I bet you did, and the load of the save moved it. If you had been working the clams, the research would have been further along. So we should examing all cities for tile work selections on each reopening of the game, to be sure our labor plans are not getting scrambled.

I think that my builds came in close to your calculation. I worked commerce tiles a few turns to bring in the BW a turn sooner (so builds were a turn later).

Ronnie1 said:
Overall research order was Fishing-BW-Myst-Mason-Wheel-Pottery-Sailing-Writing. Bed time!

Did your test map have copper in reach? I am getting concerned that we need a more advanced military unit soon. Fortified warriors in woods hills might stop archers, but not axes (AI or barb).

I would love to fortify on the gem hill that controls the isthmus, but if I do that, I leave unbusted squares closer to home, that could spawn Barbs. With one more warrior, I could completely bust our land to the isthsmus. Do you think that is worth doing (about a three turn diversion to make one more at pop 3)?

In your sequence, could Wheel-Pot come before Myst-Mason?

If you and C63 have a different view on whipping the WB now, that remains unresolved, I am inclined to go his way, partly because that is my preference, and largely because he has the play after me, and ought to get it set up the way he would like it. Hope you don't mind (if that is how it comes to pass) ...

Confusion brings up the issue of when to get iron working. We are going to need it for cities in the north.

Is getting 'henge all that critical, compared to just building libraries for cultural expansion (we are heading there anyway)? If not we can delay mysticism and masonry, perhaps to find that advanced military unit (AH, Archery IW)? Don't get me wrong, I love 'henge on Noble, but on Monarch, do we have greater needs, especially without copper?

So much to do, so little time ... :undecide:

dV

Ronnie1 · Dec 3, 2006

I like SH here because we can get so cheap (8turns w/1chop) not a very big investment of time. Masonry opens up Great Lighthouse which could a reaaly nice since all cities will be coastal for a while. If we "need" better units, I'd be more in favor of IW so we can start to clear jungle. After a little sleep, I looked at my autolog from the test game. I re-loaded a number of times because my note taking was getting pretty poor from lack of sleep last night. Also, the log seems to record actions which I changed. It says I started 3 different builds on the same turn, pretty sure the game only allows 1 for real.
Anyway I digress,
the research order from my test:
Fishing-BW-Myst-Mason-Wheel-Pottery-Sailing-Writing-IW-Ag
The build order for Moscow
warrior1-warrior2(switched to WB1 w/fishing)-finish warrior2-WB2-worker1-settler1-StoneHenge-warrior3-Granary-Lighthouse(switch to settler for chop exploit last turn before chop) pop rush settler-finish Lighthouse-Great Lighthouse-Barracks-Library-WB-WB
Build order for St.Petes:
WB-warrior(rush w/overflow into granary)-granary-worker-settler
Novgorod build order:
granary-library

Events:
St Petes founded on T66
Novgorod founded on T93
Stonehenge built on T75
Great Lighthouse built on T131

Assetts:
4 warriors
3 workers
5 WB
3 Granary
2 Library
2 Wonders

Building in progress
Moscow-WB
St Petes-Settler
Novgorod-Library

Improvements
1 Stone quarry
1 Gem mine
all by T136

And I was wrong about the gems near Moscow. They won't be within reach on the next culture expansion. The gems in my test are the ones N of City 3(Novgorod), and I have a road almost built to isthmus. It's a solid plan!

Did your test map have copper in reach? I am getting concerned that we need a more advanced military unit soon. Fortified warriors in woods hills might stop archers, but not axes (AI or barb).

No, when I made it, all I had was my first turnset save. I purposely took out everything I could not see, I can add it in later if I want. I let my scout sit on the spot (NW rice) where the panther killed him, until a barb warrior killed him this time. All I was testing was build times given the resources we could see. The big difference in the real game is, what resources do the AI's have. I didn't touch them in my test map (luck of the draw).

Ronnie1 · Dec 3, 2006

No Iron on my test map either, but I new this because I made it. I don't think barbs will be a big problem on this map because all the AI's have fog busters also. This is the primary benefit of SH, border expansions let us move the fog out with fewer units. The AI's won't start sending anything on galleys until they're out of room to expand by foot. Some early moderate risk taking will pay off big down the road. Stolen quote from SGOTM2 "I do believe that to win, we have to play like a team and discuss every move and try to convince the other team members that what is planned is a good thing to do and not just something that we have to do in order to win." Good solid planning is the key. Remember, this game is sort of like golf, the team who plays fewest turnsets, not the fastest turnsets, will win!

The immediate point, pop size = more tiles worked and/or more ops to rush. Working 1 hill forrest with the fish will double production speed and let the pop grow so the worker on deck will be that much faster.

In your sequence, could Wheel-Pot come before Myst-Mason?

There is no need for wheel now, ie: nothing to hook up at this point. Myst-Mason-Wheel lets us start on the quarry and then hook it up when we want it for Stonehenge or Pyramids.

we should consider reaserching IV sooner that will alow us to chop that jungle on gems

@Confusion, we won't need IW until we have 3rd city in jungle region.

Exactly. Ideally we would want to whip close to unhappiness border but the lower the pop, less food is required to grow 1 pop, so there is a trade-off involved. The thing is, in the near future, our most productive tiles will be the ones which are food-rich. Also, in this game (reading it from one of your screenies) it takes 33 food to grow from pop1 to pop2. We get 45h to go from pop2 to pop1. Doing the math, we will want to whip each 15 turns, as in the quote Ronnie1 has presented to us a few post above.

Also, fog-busting with a few warriors is the way to go.

Unhappiness border is the key, once we get to that point, we can kind of keep an equilibrium of rushing and growth to keep the pop up. Believe me, I'm not that smart, all of this I learned from Obermot's posts in previous games and trying to re-create some of Obermot's game play after viewing his victory saves from earlier GOTM's.

Here is the test map I made, try if you like!

da_Vinci · Dec 3, 2006

Ronnie1 said:
Also, the log seems to record actions which I changed. It says I started 3 different builds on the same turn, pretty sure the game only allows 1 for real.

Yes, every change of mind will be recorded. Annoying, isn't it? :rolleyes:

Lets talk research:

Ronnie1 said:
the research order from my test:
Fishing-BW-Myst-Mason-Wheel-Pottery-Sailing-Writing-IW-Ag

I'm OK with myst-mason next. Would mason-myst be even better? Gives option to build the quarry sooner (if the worker is not otherwise busy), and I don't think we are using the myst for anything right away ...
I don't think there is much difference of opinion here (at least between you and me).

Let's talk build order in Moscow:

Ronnie1 said:
The build order for Moscow
warrior1-warrior2(switched to WB1 w/fishing)-finish warrior2-WB2-worker1-settler1-StoneHenge-warrior3-Granary-Lighthouse(switch to settler for chop exploit last turn before chop) pop rush settler-finish Lighthouse-Great Lighthouse-Barracks-Library-WB-WB

War 1 is done, WB 1 is done, War 2 is done, War 3 is done (minor insubordination

but justifiable IMO, as a barb axe showing up in any close fog would be a nightmare, and now all settler routes are secure.). WB2 in progress. How far behind your test game schedule am I? I suspect not more than 2-3 turns ...

Let's save the discussion of whipping WB 2 for last. I don't disagree with the sequence that you have laid out. I hope you are not too miffed about my moving up war 3 (to me, an useful ounce of prevention).

Lets talk military risks:

Others may have a better feel for the timing of this, but I worry about when barbs axes might show. There is no sign of an AI fogbusting across the isthsmus yet, so barbs could spawn there. Needed two warriors north to fogbust effectively so any barbs spawn well away from Moscow. Also needed the third in the SW to be sure a bear didn't spawn where we want St.Pete (we would have a bear of a time dealing with a bear using only warriors. Prevention was the key!)

OK now to the whip WB2 or not question.

Ronnie1 · Dec 3, 2006

@All,
So I just went through my test game again from the beginning. Very different results. This time I missed Stonehenge by 4 turns using the same research order and trying to use almost the same build order. This time I went: warrior-warrior(switch to WB w/fishing)-finish warrior in 2T w/MM-WB-worker-SH(but switched to settler when 1st chop was ready) finished settler while worker started on quarry, and then went back SH. Missed SH by 4 and immediately switched to Pyramids. I eventually got the Mids but the lack border expansion made city growth grind to a halt in the jungle. The good city sites have to much jungle in the thin cross and need an expansion for good growth and production. After spending so long on the Pyramids the GLH was built far away the very next turn before I even had a Lighthouse in Moscow. All things being equal, I think I'd trade the Pyramids for a shot at both SH and GLH. 1 funny thing did happen this time though, my scout died on the exact same NW rice square as in the real game. I think I'll run trough it again.

OK now to the whip WB2 or not question.

I say no let Moscow grow, Or maybe yes and then build worker very fast, I'm sooooo confused!

da_Vinci · Dec 3, 2006

Ronnie1 said:
"I do believe that to win, we have to play like a team and discuss every move and try to convince the other team members that what is planned is a good thing to do and not just something that we have to do in order to win."

Do you really mean discuss every MOVE? Or just critical decision points? Also, aren't what are good things, and what we have to do to win, kind of the same thing? (Not trying to be a smart aleck, just not sure what distinction you are making).

So let me see if I can convince you that whipping the workboat is a good thing

Ronnie1 said:
The immediate point, pop size = more tiles worked and/or more ops to rush. Working 1 hill forrest with the fish will double production speed and let the pop grow so the worker on deck will be that much faster.

Extra pop only helps if it has something useful to work. Suppose we trade 1 pop to get a WB in 1 turn instead of 10 turns, or maybe 7 or 5 turns depending on what tiles are worked if no whip. What we give up, by sacrificing 1 pop (do this after pop 3 so that the second WB can be worked right away ... pop 3 is 3 turns away working the clam and the fish), is one net item of production. The third pop, if not whipped, can only work a tile that produces three commodities: either 2 F and one other, or 1F and two other. Now it eats two food, so it produces 1 net other (on a 2F tile), or it produces 1 net other, and it swaps 1 food from the fish tile for a second other from its tile. Still, just 1 net extra commodity.

Now what does the workboat on the clams do? It causes the pop working the clams to produce an extra two net food !!! That is twice as much net extra production than the one pop that it cost !!! Because the pop will eat, but the WB does not eat !!! So after we whip, our city, even though smaller, has more net productivity than if we did not whip.

Lets compute an example. My city with 2 pop working WB on fish, and WB on clams. Your city with pop 3 working fish, and the two forest hills. Let's say both now start a worker, 90 hammer/foods required.

My city makes 2/2/1 in city, 5/0/1 on fish, and 4/0/2 on clam for 11/2/4. We eat 4 food, so net is 7/2/4. That's 9 toward the worker (10 turns), and 4 commerce to science.

Your city makes 2/2/1 in city, 5/0/1 on fish 1/2/0 on hill 1, and 1/2/0 on hill 2. Total is 9/6/2. But you have to eat 6 food, so net is 3/6/2 That is 9 toward the worker (10 turns) and only two commerce to science!!

So we make the worker in the same time, but over the 10 turns, my city adds 20 extra flasks.

Now if you decide to match the commerce by working the unboated clams (you don't have the second WB because you didn't whip it ... you are still about 5 to 7 turns away from getting it) you produce 2/2/1 in city, 5/0/1 on fish 1/2/0 on hill 1, and 2/0/2 on the clams. Total is 10/4/4. But you eat 6 food, so net is 4/4/4. That is 8 to the worker, and you won't see the worker for 12 turns. I beat you by two, with the same science production. Note that this example you produce 12 net commodities, compared to 11 working both hills.

Plus, unless you stop the WB to start the worker after I whip, you have to wait 5 to 7 turns to finsh the WB before you can start the worker. Yes you will get some food toward the next pop (3 per turn to 4 per turn), but I get the worker 5 to 7 turns before you, and then grow pop at plus 7 food per turn!!

Bottom line is that if I whip the WB, then go worker (after we hit pop 3), then we can deliver everything on your test game list 5 to 7 turns faster than if we don't whip !! I think you would love that !!!

Note that if you max hammers to get your WB in 5 instead of 7, you are sacrificing science in the bargain.

That is what C63 was talking about. This is why Obermot says whip 'til your hands bleed. This is the same logic that says that after all bonus tiles are developed and worked, a specialist may add more to a city than slow pop increases that add only one net extra commodity. It is why a worker is so powerful: develop a tile and add +2 or more net commodities to the production of an existing pop, without having to feed it any extra. Does more for the city than an extra pop working a three commodity tile, because the extra pop eats two food. Eating two food is the Achilles heel of population growth.

Someone tell me if I am missing something, but I think I have the logic right. Edit: Well, I need to add in that when you get the WB in 5 to 7 turns, then you can work all of my tiles plus one more, so for 3 to five turns you get one extra commodity per turn. I was getting two extra commodities per turn, until you get the WB, so I think I am still ahead, but now more like 2 to 4 turns sooner for the list. While you finish the worker, I get five turns of +7 net food, which ought to equalize population. Once the game is done, we can go back and test the two scenarios to validate or refute my point.

Oh, and pardon my passionate debating of my position

Ronnie1 said:
I say no let Moscow grow, Or maybe yes and then build worker very fast, I'm sooooo confused!

Hope this ends the confusion. If we gain 5 to 7 turns, maybe we make SH? And perhaps once we start SH, go whole hog: chop it and pop rush it (unless there are penalties), and maybe start it before a settler?

If we whip and get the worker faster, maybe masonry before myst as we can then set the worker to the quarry. 1F 4H quarried if I am not mistaken ...

dV

Ronnie1 · Dec 3, 2006

@dV

Do you really mean discuss every MOVE? Or just critical decision points? Also, aren't what are good things, and what we have to do to win, kind of the same thing? (Not trying to be a smart aleck, just not sure what distinction you are making).

Your impassioned debate is exactly the point I was trying to make. Please don't apologize for being passionate about any area of your life. The quote was culled from a debate in a previous SGOTM thread, and the poster eventually went in a different direction on the specifics of that situation. And short term goals don't necessarily "always benefit" the long term goal.

Lets compute an example. My city with 2 pop working WB on fish, and WB on clams. Your city with pop 3 working fish, and the two forest hills. Let's say both now start a worker, 90 hammer/foods required.

I would have this city (size 3) now work both ocean tiles and 1 of the hills until the quarry is complete, and then switch to there of course. You are absolutely right, always work bonus tiles except in very specific situations, like when the first WB was complete and we could shave a turn off the warrior by working the hill instead of the grassland. The computer usually makes pretty good decisions on which tiles to work, I only override those in situations like the one above, and then hopefully remember to switch back.

Your logic is sound, and no I don't want to debate every move. My only concern is that if we want to purse any early wonders, nothing beats a steady diet of say 10 hammers/turn, especially if thats gets doubled with bonuses. There is a penalty for pop rushing wonders (-50&#37

I believe. Chopping and rushing the very end is sometimes the best way IMO. But max city sizes are supposed to be the "best" way to speed progress. If you want to use the whip, whip away!

da_Vinci · Dec 3, 2006

If pop rushing wonders is penalized then we won't do that (unless at happiness penalty, when we might as well).

The fastest way to get you to your 10 H per turn, I think, is to get rapid food surplus by whipping WB, make worker, quarry the stone (so mason before myst, do you agree?), mine a hill, (1 hill, quarry, and city must be 9 or 10 H already). I think we have the same goal, just different idea of best and fastest way to get there. I think whip WB is at worst equal, and probably better.

So, my tentative plan would be to switch to masonry, grow Moscow to pop 3 (3 turns), revolt to slavery, whip WB, start worker. Three turns into worker, I hand it off to C63. I think that is consistent with your grand plan. If C63 buys into this, then I think we go with it.

dV

Joemama · Dec 3, 2006

Looks like things are moving along nicely. I think I agree with the way things are headed. I vote for lots of whipping as soon as possible. I also like masonry first. After that, maybe the wheel to connect the stone or head towards writing for librarys and open borders or IW to get jungle cities going and maybe swords for an unlucky neighbor. Sometime after the second city is founded, I would think about squezing in a workboat or two for exploring.

SGOTM 03 - Gypsy Kings

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Gypsy Prince

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Chieftain

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Deity

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