SGOTM 03 - Gypsy Kings

[Conquistador 63]

Wow, it's been only 16 hours since my last post in this thread, and now I find this really interesting and heated debate. There are so many interesting statements, and I'd like to comment a lot of them but I am afraid I would lose myself in the process of quoting and replying to each one of them. Instead, I'll just add a short list:

1. Even though I'm drooling to have the save handed to me, I agree this is not a real time race. Let's take our time and discuss until we get a consensus. If that ultimately can't be reached then I think it should be up to the player's decision.
2. Whip or not? I am leaning towards da_Vinci's view, he explained it better than I could (with my limited english). But there is a point that should be considered: we shouldn't whip an item when the next in line is a worker or settler (as I think it is the case now), because we won't be able to regrow pop while producing those. I don't have the game open here, but we could consider growing to 4 while doing WB2 then whip 2 pop to get worker almost immediately. Btw, we may reach a point (near unhappy cap) where we will always want to whip 2 pop at a time - still only 1 unhappy face for those 15 turns. Also, da_Vinci is right, we should avoid whipping wonders because of the penalty.
3.Tech: I say finish wheel, not for immediate roads, but to get pottery next. Those cheap granaries...we'll be able to whip and regrow in no time. Masonry could come next (although I still think we could insert sailing there - but it may be still early to discuss it). I think we have some workers and settlers to build before bothering with those wonders. I start to believe we're alone in our island, but this is supposed to be a crowded map.
4. Expansion: I'm ok with both suggestions, not much of a difference, although I had thought along da_Vinci's lines for city 3, so we could grab those gems NW of Moscow. But who knows if after plopping city 2 we would be able to see copper across the strait as in that pre-game test save?

 

[Conquistador 63]

Double-post, but after re-reading recent posts I think I have another concern. It is related to the recreation of a wider part of our starting area in the world builder as a training tool. Of course, there are still lots of differences between the "tool" and the real map, but if we continue to take steps in that direction...

I am pretty sure this issue has been discussed elsewhere in an old GOTM thread, but honestly I don't recall which was the staff verdict on it. Anyway, I understand no harm was intended, but I wonder if a consultation via PM to AlanH regarding this wouldn't be advisable. That is, if our team's favorite lurker isn't already aware of this post by then.

 

[AlanH]

lurker's comment: Go ahead and model the map you can see in WorldBuilder if you think it will help, and if you have that much time to spare. It's not banned by any S/GOTM rules, and I was shouted down in that previous thread when I suggested that it went against the spirit of the competition.

 

[da_Vinci]

2. Whip or not? I am leaning towards da_Vinci's view, he explained it better than I could (with my limited english). But there is a point that should be considered: we shouldn't whip an item when the next in line is a worker or settler (as I think it is the case now), because we won't be able to regrow pop while producing those. I don't have the game open here, but we could consider growing to 4 while doing WB2 then whip 2 pop to get worker almost immediately. Btw, we may reach a point (near unhappy cap) where we will always want to whip 2 pop at a time - still only 1 unhappy face for those 15 turns. Also, da_Vinci is right, we should avoid whipping wonders because of the penalty.

I am not sure worker or settler next in line is a reason not to whip. If you buy my premise that working two improved tiles is more productive than working one improved and two unimproved, then why not go the more productive route right away? The idea that more population is always better seems more and more an illusion to me as I consider it.

We have to take the loss of pop growth hit at some point, or take a hit of two pop for instant worker. I see an advantage of getting the worker sooner, even if the city stays small for a while: Moscow grows to 3, I whip WB and now it's two. Perfect, as right now there are only two improved tiles to work anyway (seafood). Build the worker in 10 turns. Yes, pop is stagnant for those 10. Now, put worker to work on a mine or quarry. Pop now grows at +7 food per turn, so in 5 turns, we are at pop 3. By then, the worker has completed the tile improvement (or will in a few turns), so we get 3 pop working three improved tiles, which should be more productive than 4 pop working 2 improved and 2 unimproved tiles. Worker then improves something else by the time the next pop comes out.

Maybe we should call this the "improved tile slingshot": population is only ever as big as the number of improved or bonus tiles (by bonus I mean produces more that 3 commodities) available to be worked. The sooner we get the worker (pop 3,whip WB, make worker), the sooner we have all of our pop working improved tiles, which maxes out productivity, even compared to a city with 1 more pop but one less improved tile. And the sooner we can chop, etc.

3.Tech: I say finish wheel, not for immediate roads, but to get pottery next. Those cheap granaries...we'll be able to whip and regrow in no time. Masonry could come next (although I still think we could insert sailing there - but it may be still early to discuss it). I think we have some workers and settlers to build before bothering with those wonders. I start to believe we're alone in our island, but this is supposed to be a crowded map.

I could go either way on henge, and C63's interest in wheel-pottery is why I started in that direction. THIS IS THE BIG STRATEGIC QUESTION AT THIS TIME: WONDERS NOW, OR WORKERS & SETTLERS. Dictates the build and tech paths. Looks like R1 and C63 have different ideas. I am happy to pursue either one, as I can see the merits of each.

4. Expansion: I'm ok with both suggestions, not much of a difference, although I had thought along da_Vinci's lines for city 3, so we could grab those gems NW of Moscow. But who knows if after plopping city 2 we would be able to see copper across the strait as in that pre-game test save?

I am betting this will be the least argued area of decisions

1. Even though I'm drooling to have the save handed to me, I agree this is not a real time race. Let's take our time and discuss until we get a consensus. If that ultimately can't be reached then I think it should be up to the player's decision.

Well, here is an idea: There are only 7 turns left for me to play in this set, and they are pretty mundane which ever way we go: the warriors are in place and I have no plans to move them, and my grow whip worker plan in Moscow I have played out in my mind a million times (just in my MIND, Alan ) We seem to be at a huge strategic juncture here, so I would be happy to upload the save at this point, formally write it up, and let C63 have the game in hand as he and R1 debate their respective strategic ideas (with input from the rest of us). I would envisoin C63 playing 27 turns, to put us back on the multiples of 10 for handoffs. So if you think that option would be useful, it is on the table (as long as it is legal ... )

Plus, posting a score of 73 at 2980 would look mighty good on the progress chart, and maybe intimidate some of our opposition

I never said I was shy about speaking up !

dV

 

[Joemama]

I could go either way on henge, and C63's interest in wheel-pottery is why I started in that direction. THIS IS THE BIG STRATEGIC QUESTION AT THIS TIME: WONDERS NOW, OR WORKERS & SETTLERS. Dictates the build and tech paths. Looks like R1 and C63 have different ideas. I am happy to pursue either one, as I can see the merits of each.

dV

This is a very nice way to sum up where we stand at this point. Since there are a couple of very nice city sites available and many good undeveloped tiles, I would vote for settlers and workers now. I think grabbing a good city site to the north is more beneficial than Stonehenge.

 

[da_Vinci]

This is a very nice way to sum up where we stand at this point. Since there are a couple of very nice city sites available and many good undeveloped tiles, I would vote for settlers and workers now. I think grabbing a good city site to the north is more beneficial than Stonehenge.

I think there is some thought that city 2 would be in the southwest, as it does hot have jungle that we as yet cannot chop. It also has clams in the "skinny square" (the 8 tiles you can work before expansion, as opposed to the fat cross), while a lot of northern cities, if optimally placed for the long term, will require the fat cross to harness the resources.

That is a reason to consider 'henge. With stone, we get it for 90 hammers (cost of a worker). A couple of chops, and we probably get it in 6 turns or so from when we start it...?? Obelesks cost 45 hammers, so after two new cities it pays for itself. Also, Peter is philosophical, + 100% GP points. So henge plays to our strength.

Do we think that other teams will go for 'henge? If they get it and we don't, are we at disadvantage? It seems that we do not have a serious competition for settling "our" land east of the isthmus, at least not yet, so we have a window of opportunity to go for 'henge. If the AI were sniffing about our land, I would say we don't have time.

Now, is there a path in the short term (like my last 7 turns yet to be played ) that works for both strategies? Perhaps there is ...

I favor letting Moscow grow to 3 (takes 3 turns) revolting to slavery, whipping the WB (five turns used to this point) and starting a worker, who will take 10 turns (or less with whip overflow). After the worker is done, pop will grow at +7 food per turn, so we are at pop 3 in five turns. Researching masonry will take 15 turns, which will be done just about when the worker is if I switch to it now, so he can work on the quarry. By the time that the next pop is available, the quarry ought to be close and it will be 1 F 4 H (five commodities - quite a tile output for one pop!) Seems like we would want that square developed as it maximizes the city productivity, whether we are going for henge or for cities next. So if we can agree that this tactical sequence for the next 20 turns (7 of which are still in my turnset) works well for either strategy, then I could wrap up my turn, send it on to C63, and we can make the final decision about henge vs cities after we have the benefit of another 20 or so turns of play.

What does everyone think of this idea ?

dV

 

[Ronnie1]

@All,
Great points by all. One of the benefits of the philosophical leader is double GPP. One quick 12 turn build of SH can get that ball rolling early and get us free early border expansions.
@C63,
Your english seems outstanding to me! And your arguments have always been solid.

 

[da_Vinci]

@C63,
Your english seems outstanding to me! And your arguments have always been solid.

@C63: I agree completely regarding your English skills. I have met Americans who could take lessons from you !

Thinking further from my last post ... after masonry it still takes about 10 turns each to research wheel and myst. during that time, Moscow grows to about 5 unless we throw a settler into the mix (maybe pop rush the settler while the research finishes) Then we can have it all: move rapidly to henge, and still get a city settled along the way, and one worker is busy busy busy.

Please tell me you love it !!

dV

 

[Ronnie1]

@dV,
Yes and yes! I went for Peter Test 3 attempt #3 and tried to recreate your builds from the autolog post. These were my findings:
Pop rush the workboat just as you said and then went build order like this, worker-settler-WB-settler-Stonehenge
Founded St.Petes in 2170 and started WB-switched to Granary and pop rushed before city got to size 3.
Founded Novgorod in 1480 started Granary
The worker chopped the first settler on the hill west of Stone. Started to build mine, but stopped to build quarry as soon as available. Road of course, then went back and finished the mine, built roads until start of SH, then chopped 1 forrest for that. SH complete in 1360, followed by Granary.
Research order: BW-Wheel-Masonry-Pottery-Mysticism as suggested by C63.
Accidental discovery of Copper from the first mine next to the stone in 925BC solved all of our other problems.

 

[da_Vinci]

Continuing from Ronnie1's last post, my one thought would be whether switch to masonry right away (get the quarry up faster, which is a higher yield tile to work than a mined hill I think). This idea of figuring out what is the most productive tile for each of our pop to work is one small way in which we can negate our Monarch handicaps.

@Ronnie1: you used worker to chop settler, then started mine but switched to quarry. If I switch to Masonry right away, would quarry be available right after the chop, so that we get to work the 1/4/0 quarry that much sooner?

Any trouble with barbs? I still think we could see some crossing the isthmus.

So it sounds like the path I suggested (pop 3, whip WB, start worker), along with either finish wheel or (better I think) masonry, then wheel is a way to finish my turn that keeps both henge an a rapid second city in play.

I think if C63 agrees with that short term plan, I will finish and hand it off monday.

I see you built a third WB in Moscow. How did you put that to work? It could explore local waters until St Pete in SW, when it nets the clams in the skinny square.

Interesting that many other teams seem to be experiencing a slowing of score growth after 2800 BC. It looks to me like ours is poised to explode! Unless something ugly comes across the isthmus, I don't see anything to bother us in the near term.

dV

 

[Ronnie1]

@dV,

I see you built a third WB in Moscow. How did you put that to work? It could explore local waters until St Pete in SW, when it nets the clams in the skinny square.

Exactly, St Petes was already up when the 3rd WB was ready, I built it for both the clams and to let Moscow grow before the next settler. At size 4, working the bonus tiles and a mined hill it's the powerhouse early city we thought it would be. Novgorod was founded before SH was finished, so SH grew the borders for both St Petes and Novgorod on the same turn of course. This cleared all fog east of the isthmus and the southern part of the west side as well. Had 1 warrior on the gem hill sealing the door.
You're also right about Masonry, the sooner we have it, the sooner we work the bonus tile. I had never thought about it just that way, but it makes perfect sense. Try to keep pop levels such that all the bonus tiles are getting worked, and pop rush when we are over that threshhold. So we would want research path to go Masonry-Wheel-Pottery-Mysticism. I also did not have to whip anything else before SH, so Moscow was size 5 I think when SH finished. I think I put 1 turn into warrior, then whipped and dumped a massive overflow into Granary which finished in 2-3 turns. It would really be awesome if the RNG obliged and add a little something to 1 of our mines! Good Luck!

 

[Conquistador 63]

After reading these last posts, I am ok with the proposed actions. If things happen like in Ronnie1's post #89 I think we would be in good shape. I'd just suggest to start building SH only after having stone connected by road to ensure optimal productivity. If we fail to get it, at least we'll have a fair amount of money in our bank.

Also, I think we should insert a couple of workboats to go exploring in opposite directions and find those other 16 civs. Success in this SGOTM will depend heavily on fast science rate, either we go Diplo or Space Race, IMO. As discussed before, and as I found in my only attempt at a test game, getting to writing (not only for libraries, but also for open borders which will allow our exploring fishboats to continue on their journey), and then to Alphabet might be the investment with the highest rate of return in this game.

But I think we'll have time to discuss it later. It's a go, da_Vinci!

 

[da_Vinci]

After action report of Prince da_Vinci 3400 to 2800:

We began sadly with the state funeral for our brave scouts: full military honors.

The Minister of Security vowed that no more of our comrades would be victimized by wild animals. He also realized that we as yet do not have the resources to upgrade our armaments, and that if we are not careful, rebellious bands of savages could spring up in our ancestral lands, potentially even armed with advanced weapons provided by our as yet unmet enemies. Therefore a program to train and deploy our warriors was undertaken to spread our military control and to suppress such untoward events. Two new warriors were trained, and our army of three was so deployed: two deployed in the north, and one in the southwest. They are entrenched in strong encampments. We have had no further trouble from wild animals nor any trouble from savages.

The workboat commissioned by the Minister of the Interior was completed, and provided to our skilled fishermen. This resulted in a vast improvement in their efficiency. Seeing this, our watermen who harvest the clams came to the court, and told us that such a boat would provide them with similar benefits. Once adequate warriors for security were completed, we began a boat for the watermen.

At this time, our Minister of Science told us that we had discovered methods for working a new substance called bronze. However, we only had trace amounts adequate for the research, and not enough for any useful production.

The Minister of Labor, dismayed by the slow production of the empire, addressed the citizens in this way: “Veeeee have vaaaayyys of making you veeerk” !! This awoke the citizens out of their doldrums, and the second work boat was produced in record time! Unfortunately, one citizen was killed in an industrial accident, which has lowered the morale of the population a bit.

At this time, our philosophers began to have a vision of a great stone structure that would allow them to understand the heavens, the seasons, and the forces of nature. To pursue such a wonder, we will need to learn how to cut huge stones from the earth, make roads to move the stones to the sacred site, and learn the mysteries of nature. A program was begun to learn these, starting with the mason’s skills.

After producing the second workboat (securing a good food supply), and with the empire secure for now, we turned to training a group of highly skilled craftsmen to apply technology to the land.

This is the state of the empire, as we hand over the ship of state …


The save is now up on the SGOTM progress and results page, which as I understand it is the place to download it from. Be sure to be in the right row or you will wander into a parallel universe Go get 'em C63

I am finding that my citizen assignments seem to be getting shuffled around after some turns, and after opening a save. Anyone else have this problem? I don't see any automation that is on ...

Screenshots are unchanged from those in post 68 (my intra-turnset consultation), except that there is now a workboat on the clams as well.

The proposed build plan in Moscow: Worker (in progress, done in 8) settler (worker chops), WB, settler2, Henge

Worker tasks: chop first settler, quarry stone, road stone

Research: masonry (in progress, done in 7) wheel, pottery, mysticism

The log that you get from the upload confirmation:

Spoiler :

Turn 24, 3280 BC: You have trained a Work Boat in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Warrior.

Turn 32, 3040 BC: You have discovered Bronze Working!

Turn 34, 2980 BC: Exit game to await team consult on next steps

Turn 37, 2890 BC: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 37, 2890 BC: Gypsy Kings adopts <COLOR=102,229,255,255Slavery!
Turn 37, 2890 BC: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.

Turn 38, 2860 BC: Whipped workboat

The autolog from the HOF mod

Spoiler :

Turn 21 (3370 BC)

Turn 22 (3340 BC)
Moscow grows: 2

Turn 23 (3310 BC)

Turn 24 (3280 BC)
Moscow finishes: Work Boat

Turn 25 (3250 BC)

Turn 26 (3220 BC)

Turn 27 (3190 BC)
Moscow finishes: Warrior

Turn 28 (3160 BC)
Moscow begins: Warrior

Turn 29 (3130 BC)

Turn 30 (3100 BC)

Turn 31 (3070 BC)
Moscow finishes: Warrior

Turn 32 (3040 BC)
Moscow begins: Work Boat
Tech learned: Bronze Working

Turn 33 (3010 BC)
Research begun: The Wheel
Research begun: Pottery
Research begun: The Wheel

Turn 34 (2980 BC)
Moscow begins: Settler
User comment: Exit game to await team consult on next steps
Research begun: Masonry

Turn 35 (2950 BC)

Turn 36 (2920 BC)
Moscow grows: 3

Turn 37 (2890 BC)

Turn 38 (2860 BC)
User comment: Whipped workboat
Moscow finishes: Work Boat

Turn 39 (2830 BC)
Moscow begins: Worker

Turn 40 (2800 BC)

Hmmmm... the revolution to Slavery is not listed in the autolog, but is in the other log ??

Prince da_Vinci

 

[Joemama]

I think there is some thought that city 2 would be in the southwest, as it does hot have jungle that we as yet cannot chop. It also has clams in the "skinny square" (the 8 tiles you can work before expansion, as opposed to the fat cross), while a lot of northern cities, if optimally placed for the long term, will require the fat cross to harness the resources.

dV

Sorry I wasn't clear on this, but the city I was referring to trading off for Stonehenge was our third or fourth city location. I assume we are all on the same page on the second city going at the original settler spot. A warrior or scout heading through the isthmus for exploring would give us a better idea how long we can wait for those sites.

After reading DVs argument for Stonehenge I may have to change my vote. I did not think of the hammer breakdown in terms of oracles. It is amazing what one can learn in these games. The only problem I see is the risk of losing the wonder. It would not suprise me if the evil map creator put a bunch of industrious civs by some stone on the other side of the world.

 

[da_Vinci]

After reading DVs argument for Stonehenge I may have to change my vote. I did not think of the hammer breakdown in terms of oracles. It is amazing what one can learn in these games. The only problem I see is the risk of losing the wonder. It would not suprise me if the evil map creator put a bunch of industrious civs by some stone on the other side of the world.

The current plan appears to have us building two new cities before starting henge, so if we lose it we are not really off track. If the other teams (as opposed to the AI in our game) manage to get it, we may have trouble keeping up with them, so I think we should give it a shot.

I would love to scout across the isthmus, but my fear is that if we don't keep our homeland fogbusted, barb archers or (worse) axmen might spring up. My guess is that some wandering AI unit will arrive at the isthmus in advance of any settlers, at which time we will have some warning.

We will have to consider whether putting archery into the tech path (maybe in place of pottery?) might be necessary to be ready to make archers if we get barbs showing up ...

dV

 

[Conquistador 63]

Great job, da Vinci. I guess my turn will be pretty straightforward, I shall be able to play it tonight. Hardest part will be to produce write-ups as inspired as the previous ones.

Just to be sure, are we agreed to set research to masonry/wheel/pottery? It's as far as we can get in my turnset, and it's just what I understood from previous posts, I don't want to mess up. I understand da Vinci's concerns on homeland defense, but in that case we could also tech AH (instead of Archery) at some point, which would allow us to locate horses and work the cow in city 3.

@ da Vinci: is your autolog set to html or forum tags? I use html in my solo games, not sure if the other option is better suited to copy/paste here.

 

[da_Vinci]

Just to be sure, are we agreed to set research to masonry/wheel/pottery? It's as far as we can get in my turnset, and it's just what I understood from previous posts, I don't want to mess up.

Ronnie1 is fine with masonry first (the idea being to quarry the stone and work it with a citizen ASAP, as a five commodity tile is the next most productive one we have (after the fish at seven 5/0/2 and the clams at six 4/0/2) About pottery, see next

I understand da Vinci's concerns on homeland defense, but in that case we could also tech AH (instead of Archery) at some point, which would allow us to locate horses and work the cow in city 3.

I suspect that you and Ronnie1 (and others) may have a sense of how soon barb axes might show up. If we can get pottery and mysticism before barb axes are likely, then by all means do that. But I want us to be ready if a barb axe shows up at the edge of my fogbust, and then starts a march to Moscow.

On epic, there are more unit moves per build/research milestone, so do we need a defensive tech in hand before we see the axe, to have time to build the defender once we see the axe?

If we go for AH and there are no horses, we have not solved the problem, so AH has some risk. Once we settle a city in the north with settler2, we can move the fogbust further out and get more warning.

As I say, you may know better when to expect the barbs, esp the axes. If we don't really need the pottery just yet, putting archery in its place gives us an added measure of security. But it's your call.

@ da Vinci: is your autolog set to html or forum tags? I use html in my solo games, not sure if the other option is better suited to copy/paste here.

Yes, to paste in forums I am using forum tags. I have used html solo when I don't expect to post it. I wrote a way to use find/replace edits to convert forum tags to html tags (in a post with HOF autolog in the title, from around early Nov in GOTM main forum) that you can do to your autolog file, and then AlanH put it into a converter that is posted in the same thread. Also, alt+e allows you to manually add notes to the log (very useful, as log misses civic revolutions, and at least in .008, declarations of war).

dV

 

[da_Vinci]

GIA agent Tamborine brings information from the media about life in the parallel universes.

(As I said to DynamicSpirit and the Geezers in their 02 thread before this game started, we are not at war with each other as much as fighting the same war in a parallel universe)

Striking is the slowing of score growth in the warlords teams, who having reached a score of 70 to 80 at 40 turns, all seem to be on trajectories to 110 score at 80 turns. Of course, these may be artifacts of post timing.

A few vanilla teams are showing the same trend (with the same caveat). footballguys has sustained their early trajectory for a long time (the slight early slope declines clearly meant nothing).

Perhaps this just means that cities have stopped growing while settlers and workers are produced. We may have the same score trend ourselves.

But the other thought is whether score growth is slowing because some calamity is befalling the Russians across all the dimensions? The only such calamity being a military threat that they were not prepared for? If we see scores that recover to the footballguys trendline, then probably no calamity. But if scores do not, does that tell us that we need to boslter our defenses? The intelligence collection will continue ...

Culture curves in vanilla show no major inflections through 90 turns, which suggests no wonders built so far ...

GK is tied with Geezers for the vanilla power lead at 40 turns, to the limited extent that one can make any such assertions from these data.

dV, transmitting report from AT

 

[Scout214]

Sounds like whipping is like voting: whip early, whip often. D)

dV

dV lives in Maryland, where at least six thousand people vote in every election despite the fact that they are dead!!

 

[Conquistador 63]

As predicted, my turnset was nothing much more than 20 "hit end turn" clicks.

But I took the liberty of changing the tech path a little. After masonry/wheel, I inserted Mysticism, as I didn't see a granary in the build list, nor our worker will have time to build cottages any soon. This way we open the possibility of building SH earlier.
The worker chopped 1 grassland forest, and the 2nd chop would be done after our settler would be completed, so I sent him to build quarry instead. After settler done next turn, pop will grow in 5, quarry will be ready by then, I think road should be built next. WB will take 7 turns or so.

Only event worth noting: Alex built Sparta next to us. Now we can trade resources.

In case you suffer from insomnia, here's the turn log from submission.

Spoiler :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 2800 BC to 2200 BC:


Turn 44, 2680 BC: Hinduism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 46, 2620 BC: You have discovered Masonry!

Turn 51, 2470 BC: most advanced civs - Alex the 8th

Turn 55, 2350 BC: You have discovered The Wheel!

Still awake? Here's the autolog:

Spoiler :

Turn 41 (2770 BC)

Turn 42 (2740 BC)

Turn 43 (2710 BC)

Turn 44 (2680 BC)
Hinduism founded in a distant land

Turn 45 (2650 BC)

Turn 46 (2620 BC)
Tech learned: Masonry

Turn 47 (2590 BC)
Research begun: The Wheel
Moscow finishes: Worker

Turn 48 (2560 BC)
Moscow begins: Settler

Turn 49 (2530 BC)

Turn 50 (2500 BC)

Turn 51 (2470 BC)
User comment: most advanced civs - Alex the 8th

Turn 52 (2440 BC)

Turn 53 (2410 BC)

Turn 54 (2380 BC)

Turn 55 (2350 BC)
Tech learned: The Wheel

Turn 56 (2320 BC)
Research begun: Mysticism

Turn 57 (2290 BC)

Turn 58 (2260 BC)

Turn 59 (2230 BC)

Turn 60 (2200 BC)