SGOTM 03 - Gypsy Kings

[Scout214]

Just for fun, I designated our Wayfaring Work Boat the Enterprise...

The Ocean. The Final Frontier. These are the voyages of the Work Boat Enterprise. It's 500 year mission - to seek out new life and civilizations, to circumnavigate the globe, to go boldly (splitting no infinitives) to where no Russian has gone before!

 

[da_Vinci]

I' don't have access to the map, but as we close in on the copper city site, let's be sure it is fogbusted to that a barb doesn't suddenly spring up in the city site just as we arrive. If the west warrior is still on the hill, may be time to move him one east to ensure a barb free final leg of the journey. We need to get a worker to Novgorod (I think that will be the third city name) ASAP, as he can pature and road the horses, and road the copper while we wait for IW and culture. I would even poprush a worker if necessary.

I like to operate workers in pairs, as you get useful things faster and reap their benefits. Four workers in two teams looks like a minimum to me ... what do others think?

I agree that sailing can wait for now.

I don't think that there is any two food square in Novgorod's skinny square, so I woud consider an obelisk for a faster pop of the fat cross than waiting for a library. If we get a WB timed right, we can get the fish to 5F and get the copper mined as soon as the cross pops.

dV

 

[Scout214]

I've already handed off but Igelkott could move the Warrior near the Copper/Horses over one before rolling over Turn 100 to Turn 101.

 

[da_Vinci]

I've already handed off but Igelkott could move the Warrior near the Copper/Horses over one before rolling over Turn 100 to Turn 101.

Looks like if we move the west warrior east 1, and no barb on the site for Novgorod, then we can move the escort warrior west, and the settler can go unescorted to the city site. I think it is key now is to keep Novgorod safe. (Our positon looks like a pair of pants: two legs and a waistband.) I think we need to completely fogbust westleg, since we have limited ability to reinforce Novgorod at present.

I think we should run the worker around the north horn ASAP to pasture the horses. That would take about 14 turns to arrive. Horse would then be 1F 4H 1C. Before that we make 3H, so obelisk takes 15 turns, so it would be done before worker arrives. Library would take 90 more hammers at 5 per turn after pasture, 18 more turns, then 8 turns to pop fat cross. Fat cross pops 15 turns after obelisk, which is 11 turns earlier than if we go library. potentially 11 additonal turns of fish at 5F for pop growth. And the obelisk approach does not require the worker, if you want to keep him in eastleg. But I think we want to hook up the copper ASAP.

After a couple of axes make, we could turn the west part of westleg into a training field by allowing barbs to spawn for our axes to promote on.

dV

 

[Ronnie1]

@Igelkot, You're It!

@All, I think we should sign open borders agreements with everyone immediately. Only Mao and Alex know of each other and they are already pleased with each other. This will also help religion spread into us. The reason I mentioned about citizen automation, when I looked at the previous save, Moscow was not working the clams. If the city had been automated, it would have made the change, I can't see a reason we would not want to work that square. I agree that the worker needs to head to the horses ASAP. I'm not sure I'd put any turns into an obelisk. That city will have great commerce and we will want a library there sooner rather than later. If we chop the hill where the warrior is, we'll add ~30 hammers and take off ~10 turns from the library. We may get lucky and have hinduism spread in from Gandhi. St Petes needs some culture also. We need a library there as well, but we should build a warrior first so we can work another square. We may want to chip a turn into the warrior in the que, just to make sure the already invested hammers don't start to fade. I think we can move both of the northern fogbusters out from Moscow 1 square. That would leave no fog E of isthmus, and yes I would move the warrior off the hill towards city site, no need to take that chance. 4 workers may not be enough, but I'd just be happy to have 1 more right now.

The current roster is,

Scout214 - just played
Igelkott - Up Now
Ronnie1 - on deck
da_Vinci - in the hole
C63 - still recovering from 1st turnset
Joemama - no mans land

Confusion - Injured Reserve until further notice

 

[Scout214]

Maybe I'm just too inexperienced but shouldn't we be concerned that if we agree to Open Borders and AI's see that we have no troops garrisoning any city that we'd be inviting their attack? Or do we presume that they don't have Galleys yet? Or that we'd have time to send Warriors at least into the cities? Ordinarily, I'd readily agree to Open Borders but are we taking a risk in doing so right now? Help me to understand the rationale better. Thanks for indulging me by explaining what I plainly and perhaps elimentarily fail to perceive well.

 

[igelkott]

i've caught up with you a little and i must say i'm impressed with the amount of detailed discussions

anyway, I'm on it. I've signed OB with everyone. I don't think the AI will come spying on us anytime soon. we need to go scouting south of china and for that we need OB with mao.

i need another 2 hours or so to finish my turn.

 

[igelkott]

first of all, sorry for not participating enough in the GK decision making and strategic planning processes working full-time really hurts..

as to the game - little has happened, so i'll just sum up the most important things chronologically:

: signed OB with everyone, additionally trading clam for fish with mao
: placed warriors optimally so that no square is left unfogbusted
: sent the WB south to explore but found nothing interesting apart from two chinese cities, one with unconnected copper
: founded Novgorod N of the horses and opted for library as the first build
: founded Rostov according to C63 suggestions and started the obelisk (jungle all around, so culture is badly needed)
: Worker finished in Moscow and sent straight to Novgorod, work started on warrior and then Worker
: Pyramids and the Parthenon built in far away lands
: Worker finished in st peter
: IW research completed, IRON FOUND near Moscow, but outside the fat cross.

situation:

We have 4 workers

: one is already on the horses near novgorod, ready for action
: the other two are mining iron near moscow, we will be able to build some axes and swords in about 3 turns
: the fourth one cottages the flood plains outside st.peter

: moscow is set to start building barracks, but the next player can change to whatever he feels like

: WB is ready to explore west

hope that helps

the save

 

[da_Vinci]

Looks like Igelkott only played 19 turns. We had Ronnie1 play 21 so we were ending on turn numbers that ended in 0 if everyone played 20 after that. I suppose in SGOTM 2 you ended on turn numbers ending in 9. Do we stay on the 9's or give Ronnie1 another 21 to get back to the 0's?

I see that we are cottaging the floodplain in St. Pete. My choice would be to farm all farmable land there, to support huge numbers of scientists in St. Pete with its huge food supply after CoL and Caste System. Rostov can be the cottage city, as all that grassland under the jungle seems fit for nothing else. We can pop rush like mad in St. Pete until we get the CoL.

That having been said, I see that we are -8 gold and are about to drop below 100% science. We will have to go down to 70% to get + cash flow. So maybe cottage for now, and change to farm later if that seems to help with scientist spamming. Since we don't have ag yet ...

Also, here is a possible alternate plan for Rostov's culture: Switch to Libarary instead of investing in obelisk, spend five turns to get agriculture (pause alphabet), then have the workers farm the rice for Rostov (4 food after farmed). Use the food to grow pop to pop rush the library.

We will also eventually need two WB for the fish in Rostov and Novgorod once the culture pops.

We have another settler about to finish. I think the plan was to settle on the hill in the isthmus W of the warrior. But since we have so few production tiles outside Moscow and Novgorod, do we want to settle 1 SW of the warrior, to be able to mine both hills? Downside is two tile overlap with Novgorod. Also, we can get to the rice without a culture pop. That city will hack up our cash flow even more, so keep that in mind (get ag while the getting is good?)

There is a worker in the St. Pete queue, with no hammers invested. Do we want to invest in another warrior? I think not, as we have five, and that is enough to garrison each of our cities.

City specialization: I think St. Pete for Science and GP farm (all GS), Novgorod military (two mined hills and pastured horse for production), Rostov for gold, Moscow for commerece and production both (backup military, second science?) and the fifth on isthmus, a backup military (maybe a naval focus?) and also commerce (gold or science?).

What do we think is our optimal empire size, long term? 10, 12 , more? That island SW of St. Pete looks inviting, settle in the jungle there. When cash flow in more under control, perhaps.

A couple of teams show a sudden culture jump, so I'm guessing that perhaps they pulled off Stonehenge (one is vanilla, one is warlords). Still, we are right up there in score, and it appears among the top in power.

dV

 

[igelkott]

in sgotm2 we didn't have a system at all and i still think we should not worry that much about the number of turns played. I vote for letting everyone decide when they want to end - after 19, 21 or 25 turns, whenever they reach a milestone of some sort.

a agree with dV - st. pete shouldn't be building any military units - it's not a production city and a warrior takes 20-something turns. I think that after the settler we should start on a library to expand the borders.

we should settle on that island to the SW as soon as possible, even before we settle they city to the north. I guess this will be quite a strategic place, especially with that iron.

 

[da_Vinci]

in sgotm2 we didn't have a system at all and i still think we should worry that much about the number of turns played. I vote for letting everyone decide when they want to end - after 19, 21 or 25 turns, whenever they reach a milestone of some sort.

I am fine with a more flexible approach, although I will admit that there is a part of me that likes the systematic nature of ending on 0.

I agree with dV - st. pete shouldn't be building any military units - it's not a production city and a warrior takes 20-something turns. I think that after the settler we should start on a library to expand the borders.

Assuming we are all in agreement, Ronnie1 should be sure to take that warrior out of the St.Pete queue. I think we should go library, pop rush it, and put a couple of scientists to work making flasks and GP points when the pop recovers. We can also chop the library. I have a choping question ... do you get more hammers from a chop if the forest is inside your cultural border? If so, we should not chop the spice forest until we get the pop expansion.

we should settle on that island to the SW as soon as possible, even before we settle they city to the north. I guess this will be quite a strategic place, especially with that iron.

I agree with the strategic nature of the SW island, but I don't know if we are ready to settle there any time soon. Would need sailing and a galley to get there, and it might tempt Rome in to declaring war on us if they have the military. So I would want to be able to garrison it well from the start.

We have a settler coming in 4 turns. Do we want to save it until we are ready to go SW? Sailing is 7 turns, 12 on 70% science. Then a galley, seems like alot of idle time if the settler waits to go SW. If we do settle the isthmus, we have all its resources excep one (gems) in the skinny square.

If we settle the isthmus, our current WB could go north to work its clams right away, giving it a food boost to eventually pop rush its library. Also, if we do settle there, I think we might want to pause alph for agric, so that the workers can farm the rice (now two of them) and speed pop growth.

If we go 80% science, we will be -1 which we can do for 6 turns. Alphabet will be 26 more turns away at 80%, and 30 away at 70%, a lot of turns to go without agric I think. At 80% we can get agric in 7 (one more than we can sustain 80%, but maybe we get help from the cottage?) I think we need to get the food in Rostov to pop rush some culture, whether it's the obelisk or a library.

Any thoughts about what promotions we want for our units after barracks? I think with Rome close, we need axes that eventually get the 25% vs melee bonus, which I think requires combat 1 as a prereq. And perhaps a 2 or 3 to 1 mix of axes and spears? Spears often end up being my medic units.

Mao has swords avail (so he says), five cities besides capital. He lacks stone, has two cow. He is pleased with Alex.

Gandhi has three cities besides capital (like us). We show even resources. He is cautious to Caesar.

Caesar has three cities besides capital (like us). We show even resources. He is cautious to Gandhi.

Alex only has Sparta besides capital !! We show even resources. He is pleased with Mao. Interesting how +1 relations gets pleased for some, just cautious for others. Are some leaders just more friendly by nature to other AI?

I am tempted to get agric quick, settle the isthmus, and work our infrasturcture and military while we get alphabet. After alphabet, try to trade for sailing, and look into settling SW with a strong garrison.

dV

 

[da_Vinci]

Agent Tamborine has been analyzing media reports. It appears that Murky Waters built a wonder just after 1600 BC, perhaps henge or oracle. I suppose 'mids might have been possible if the went for it early, as their power was slow to rise at first, consistent with a commitment to 'mids.

Real Ms. appears to have popped a wonder some time after 1000 BC. Seems too late for henge, maybe even for oracle? Seems it is either oracle or mids.

Or, if these teams put libraries in 3 cities at about the same time, this could give the same effect, but given the dearth of hammers in several of our cities, that seems unlikely.

So at the outset, these appear to be teams to watch ...

dV reporting for AT.

 

[da_Vinci]

I think that a city fogbusts 1 square beyond its cult border. If so, then the warrior on the hill near Novgorod could move to up to the isthmus, and we could shift warriors east to put one in St. Pete to stop the fear unhappiness.

We should follow the mantra of all citizens working improved tiles (meaning a tile that produces 4 or more products, where food, hammers and commerce are generically called products). How are we doing with that?

Moscow is perfect. working a two 6P tiles, one 5P tile, and one 4P tile.

St. Pete is working a 6P tile, and a 4P tile (soon to be 5P after cottage), but also a 3P tile. Maybe we should trade the 3P tile for pop rushing the settler and moving the overflow into library? Be sure we kill the warrior in the queue if we pop rush there. Get to settle the isthmus that much sooner.

Novgorod is working a 3P tile (horses), but in 7 turns we will have it pastured and it will be 6P (1/4/1).

Rostov is is working a 3P tile (1/0/2). It has no shot at working a tile with hammers until after the fat cross. That is why I think we should divert to ag, so we can get the rice to 4P (4/0/0) and use the whip to trade the food for hammers. Then all sorts of high production tiles become available in Rostov.

When we settle "Fifthingrad" at the isthmus (touching both clams and rice), if our current WB has moved up to the clams, we can immediatedly work a 6P tile in that city (4/0/2) and perhaps use it to make workers. Fifthingrad also frees up a warrior from fogbusting to go keep St. Pete happy, without moving the warrior away from Novgorod. I think I like this better than the warrior shift, now that I think about it.

Getting the max production per pop, as soon as possible, seems to be critical. I'd be inclined to pop rush any citizen who is only working a 3P tile (unless a higher production tile for him/her is in the works).

Mao has 10% of world pop, and 4% of land (no birth control in China, it appears). We have 3.8% of pop, and 2.75% of land. This may go to 3.00% or so with settling of Fifthingrad. If we max out product per citizen, we can keep up in production even with smaller pop.

dV

 

[Ronnie1]

@ All, I just got the save and am catching up on the thread. I was planning on reducing the # of turns per set in this round to 15 and then 10 after that. How do you feel about that scenario. The other option is just go straight to 10 now. The reason for this is that as the empire grows, much more happens during each turnset. You can already see this happening, Igelkott started his turnset with 1 worker and 2 cities, now we have 4 workers and 4 cities. By the way, Nice Job Igelkott.

I want to start the WB moving W and send another to the E. There are still 15 civs yet to be found and the circumnav bonus is nice to have. The AI's won't explore with WB so we should be able to move pretty freely for a while. The exception will be if we run into Japan (always grumpy) or civs that are unhappy with who we are already trading with.

I think we should fill out our little piece of land before we try to move to the island in the SW.

I do like the idea of farming the flood plains at some point, but w/o serfdom we can only run 2 scientists after we have a library.

If we just chop the jungle on the rice by Rostov we can pick up 1 more food before we even get AG.

I'm going to study the situation a bit to give time for more feedback.

 

[da_Vinci]

Playing 15 per set this round works for me.

I want to start the WB moving W and send another to the E. There are still 15 civs yet to be found and the circumnav bonus is nice to have. The AI's won't explore with WB so we should be able to move pretty freely for a while. The exception will be if we run into Japan (always grumpy) or civs that are unhappy with who we are already trading with.

I agree with getting workboats out in both directions soon, but I wonder if making sure that when we settle on the isthmus we can work the clams at 4/0/2 right away might not be a higher priority?

Maybe pop rush the settler in St. Pete and overflow into WB? In any event, I think we get the warrior out of that queue.

I do like the idea of farming the flood plains at some point, but w/o serfdom we can only run 2 scientists after we have a library.

Yes, only two for now. I think its caste system (CoL) that gets us unlimited, so it's a ways off.

If we just chop the jungle on the rice by Rostov we can pick up 1 more food before we even get AG.

How true! I missed that. Makes me feel more comfortable waiting on ag.

dV

 

[Joemama]

I am very curious to see the tech situation after alphabet. I am guessing we can trade iron working to a couple of civs for agriculture and sailing.

Since we have iron nearly hooked up, is anyone interested in some combat? Although the island to the southwest looks nice, I'll bet Alexander's capital is nicer. The earlier the war, the fewer -1 you declared war on our friend penalties we will get. Let me know what you guys think.

 

[Ronnie1]

@All,

I agree with getting workboats out in both directions soon, but I wonder if making sure that when we settle on the isthmus we can work the clams at 4/0/2 right away might not be a higher priority?

My thought here was to try and meet as many civs as possible before we learn alphabet.

Since we have iron nearly hooked up, is anyone interested in some combat? Although the island to the southwest looks nice, I'll bet Alexander's capital is nicer. The earlier the war, the fewer -1 you declared war on our friend penalties we will get. Let me know what you guys think.

An interesting idea that does make sense from 1 point of view. Have we thought more about which victory type we are going to pursue? If we are headed for diplomatic, this early strategy makes alot of sense, pop growth through conquest, less -1 as Joe said, 1 less civ to vote against us down the line. And Alex is always a pain in the butt if he starts to feel stronger than you. The down side is that he is friends with Mao. Mao will be a strong techer as the game progresses, a potential trading partner at the least, and a potential permanent alliance at best. That does not mean that attacking Alex will rule out either of these possibilities, but if Mao gets drawn into the war on Alex's side, it could be problematic.

Yes, only two for now. I think its caste system (CoL) that gets us unlimited, so it's a ways off.

You are right with caste system

 

[da_Vinci]

I am very curious to see the tech situation after alphabet. I am guessing we can trade iron working to a couple of civs for agriculture and sailing.

Yes, probably can do that. On the trading front, might be time to start to figure out who we make nice to, and who we can afford to annoy. Mao with 10% of land ... that's insane with 18 civs on the map, so maybe we be sure to make nice with him?

A thought on tech trading ... normally, one might hold back on juicy trade items, and if we were going for conquest or domination I would agree. But is it to our advantage, for the purpose of competing with the other teams, to accelerate the tech pace of our game? The faster everyone is researching, the faster we can trade for advanced techs.

Since we have iron nearly hooked up, is anyone interested in some combat? Although the island to the southwest looks nice, I'll bet Alexander's capital is nicer. The earlier the war, the fewer -1 you declared war on our friend penalties we will get. Let me know what you guys think.

Alex looks like an appealing target, but we should be careful not to pull the trigger on that too soon. If we overextend where we can't reinforce, we risk losing what we gained. The homeland is still not well defended, and Rome's praetorians might be on the border (does Rome have iron?).

Also, Alex has built walls in Sparta, and perhaps also in capital? Might need to wait for cats to go get him efficiently.

Maybe Mao will decide to eat Alex for lunch later, and we can join him in the war for mucho buddy-buddy points?

dV

 

[Conquistador 63]

Hi all,

I see we already got OB but still aren't able to trade with Julius and Gandhi. Is this because we haven't spotted one of their cities yet? If so, when we do get trade available and our iron/copper is connected, it becomes evident who has or doesn't have those. The less lucky ones shall be our prime invasion targets.

I agree city #5 on isthmus, it shall pay for itself working the gems in the near future. But I also think the iron islet could also be Julius' only iron source for his praetorians, so maybe we shouldn't neglect colonizing it ASAP.

Build-wise, all tough choices, but I think we're on the right track, so no smart advice here.

 

[Ronnie1]

@All,
Here is a screen shot of the settler and the location choices for city 5.
What are your thoughts? I am leaning towards dV's suggestion of being able to mine both hills, hence settling S of the W hill.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/89064/GK4.JPG