@All,
Here is a screen shot of the settler and the location choices for city 5.
What are your thoughts? I am leaning towards dV's suggestion of being able to mine both hills, hence settling S of the W hill. http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/89064/GK4.JPG
Not only can we eventually mine both hills, but we can work the clams and the rice (after chopping out jungle) before we pop border, so first build there could be workboat for the clams (rather than culture building), freeing other WB for exploring.
Since no other city on our island would add any resources, I would not be in a rush to add the maintenance costs of more cities on the island. I think putting together an expedition to get the SW island would be next on the list.
@All,
15 turns each for this turnset. You should end on a turn ending in either 0 or 5.
Pretty uneventful turnset all in all. I made 1 mistake with an early pop rush in Moscow, I didn't want to rush from 0 hammers, so I put 1 turn into a WB and rushed on the following turn. By then Moscow had grown unhappy, and now the WB only cost 1 pop so Moscow carried an unhappy citizen for almost my entire turnset. I put the overflow into another WB to send exploring eastward, and started on a Library. I was able to pop rush the Library on my last turn. Moscow now has 2 unhappy faces from pop rushing, but the first 1 should wear off in ~3 turns. St Petes finished the settler and started on a Library. It too has passed the happiness limit and has 1 unproductive citizen. There are not currently enough hammers invested to pop rush the Library. The Settler founded Yaroslavl' in the isthmus SW of the gems. I had a worker clearing the jungle on those gems the same turn. 2 more workers have roaded to that spot as well, we will have our first Luxury Resource in 4 turns if 2 workers mine and 1 builds a road. Rostov grew to size 2 and immediately pop rushed the Obelisk and started on a WB for the fish. Novgorod is 5 turns from completing the Library and 3 turns from growing to size 2 and being able to work the gems in the small square. The worker just cleared that jungle and is ready to start mining.
We have met 2 more civs! Victoria rules the English and is located west of India. We have open borders agreement with England. Spain is west of England, but ocean squares prevented making contact. England has adopted Hinduism and that is the only Religion to be adopted so far. But England does have at least 1 Jewish city as well.
Egypt/Hatshepsut is located east of Alex, we have OB with her and are trading clams for cows.
Alex had about 6 Archers and a settler in Athens when I went by.
The Great Lighthouse was built far away in 535BC (turn131).
Mao still has the pop lead but is down to 8% of total, We have 4%.
Hatshepsut has the territory lead @ 5%, We have 3.08%
Hatshepsut also controls the Pyramids in Thebes, although we don't where Thebes is yet.
I think we are in pretty good shape overall. After Moscow completes the Library (1st turn of next set) I think it needs to start pumping out troops. It has a barracks and will need to be managed so as not to become unhappy. That will allow the rest of the cities to develop their infrastructure without having to worry about defense.
The Library in Moscow should add enough beakers to the next turnset to allow Alphabet to come in during that time. We need to start thinking about which direction we want to go from there. Lots of options, and probably lots of trading potential as well.
The current roster order is:
Ronnie1 - just played
da_Vinci - Up Now
C63 - on deck
Joemama - in the hole
Igelkott - waiting
Scout214 - waiting
Here is your Session Turn Log from 715 BC to 475 BC:
Turn 122, 670 BC: You have trained a Settler in St. Petersburg. Work has now begun on a Spearman.
Turn 122, 670 BC: Confucianism has been founded in a distant land!
Turn 124, 640 BC: Merit Ptah has been born in a far away land!
Turn 127, 595 BC: Victoria converts to Hinduism!
Turn 128, 580 BC: You have trained a Work Boat in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Work Boat.
Turn 130, 550 BC: Yaroslavl' has been founded.
Turn 130, 550 BC: The Great Lighthouse has been built in a far away land!
Turn 131, 535 BC: Gandhi adopts Slavery!
Turn 131, 535 BC: Moses has been born in a far away land!
Turn 132, 520 BC: Xi Ling Shi has been born in a far away land!
Turn 132, 520 BC: Christianity has been founded in a distant land!
Turn 133, 505 BC: St. Petersburg will grow to size 5 on the next turn
Turn 133, 505 BC: St. Petersburg will become unhappy on the next turn
Turn 134, 490 BC: St. Petersburg has grown to size 5
Turn 134, 490 BC: St. Petersburg has become unhappy
The turn log does not seem to track builds of "buildings". I switched from the spearsman to a library in St Petes. Moscow built a barracks that was not recorded also.
Got the save. Probably push along tonight, perhaps up to getting alphabet, at which time I will upload the save for an intraturn discussion. If it is close enough to the handoff, maybe just do it at that time, we'll see.
Or if another crisis comes up, might upload an intraturn save sooner ... it seems that we are beyond the point where a screenshot is enough for intelligent discussion about most things.
Hatty is annoyed at Mao and Alex, so she may be demanding that we cut them off soon. I am inclined to keep Mao happy, if I am forced to choose, as we may want to go after the mids in Thebes eventually anyway.
I will shortly be posting the interim save at 310 BC, turn 146.
Alphabet came in, I traded iron working for Meditation and Agriculture with Capac, Polytheism and Archery with Gandhi, and Sailing with Frederick. Most AI we know already had it.
A few AI have math, will only trade alpha for that ... should we? Victoria, Alexander, and Mao are willing to make that trade, perhaps. Mao also has HB riding, but is not willing to trade that now. Otherwise we now have tech parity.
Are the AI likely to start demanding alphabet in tribute? How do we handle that?
I pissed off Monte by trading with Fred, but Monte would not give OB anyway, or trade any tech, and that allowed me to minimize the any negative stuff with most others. Hatty minimally miffed that I traded with Capac, but Mao pleased wtih Capac, and so thought I would keep Mao happy by being nice to Capac.
Picked priesthood as next research as a placeholder while we discuss. It leads to CoL or Feudalism, so we could found confus and get caste system with CoL. Or, could go off for MetalCasting, or some other tech that the AI will want to trade for.
After the axe in Moscow it is only 9 for a galley, and St. Pete is working on a settler (hope to pop rush it eventually) ... this is the expedition to the SW island in preparation (C63 will get to sail that mission).
We now know 10 AI: Mao, Toku, Gandhi, Hatty, Monte, Capac, Caesar, Vic, Alex and Fred. Border expassions are immenent in Rostov and St. Pete, and workboats are in place to harvest the seafood when they do.
And scorewise, we have taken a big jump on the chart.
Looks like Ronnie1 had turned on avoid growth in Moscow, which I did not catch (never used it before) for a few turns after the happy limit went up with gems, so for a few turns Moscow sat at growth in 1 while nothing happened. Fixed now.
Logs will be added after the upload of the interim save. Edit: save is now on progress page.
dV
Upload turn log:
Spoiler:
Here is your Session Turn Log from 475 BC to 310 BC:
Turn 138, 430 BC: Mao Galley near Sparta w/ Archer+Settler
Turn 142, 370 BC: Poprushed library in St.Pete for 3 pop
Turn 143, 355 BC: You have trained a Work Boat in Novgorod. Work has now begun on a Granary.
Turn 143, 355 BC: Nabu-rimanni has been born in Athens!
Turn 144, 340 BC: Moscow has grown to size 4
Turn 144, 340 BC: St. Petersburg has grown to size 4
Turn 144, 340 BC: Julius Caesar converts to Hinduism!
Turn 144, 340 BC: Novgorod's cultural boundary is about to expand.
Turn 145, 325 BC: Mao Zedong has 60 gold available for trade
Turn 145, 325 BC: You have discovered Alphabet!
Turn 145, 325 BC: The borders of Novgorod have expanded!
Turn 145, 325 BC: Socrates has been born in London!
Turn 145, 325 BC: New Tech(s) to trade: Hatshepsut, Julius Caesar, Victoria, Gandhi, Frederick, Huayna Capac, Alexander, Mao Zedong
Turn 146, 310 BC: You have discovered Meditation!
Turn 146, 310 BC: You have discovered Agriculture!
Turn 146, 310 BC: You have discovered Polytheism!
Turn 146, 310 BC: You have discovered Archery!
Turn 146, 310 BC: You have discovered Sailing!
All above were trades for IW
Turn 142 (370 BC) Contact made: German Empire User comment: Poprushed library in St.Pete for 3 pop St. Petersburg finishes: Library
Turn 143 (355 BC) St. Petersburg begins: Work Boat Novgorod begins: Granary Novgorod begins: Work Boat Novgorod finishes: Work Boat Rostov finishes: Work Boat
Turn 144 (340 BC) Rostov begins: Granary Moscow grows: 4 St. Petersburg grows: 4 St. Petersburg finishes: Work Boat
Turn 145 (325 BC) St. Petersburg begins: Work Boat Contact made: Aztec Empire St. Petersburg begins: Settler St. Petersburg begins: Worker St. Petersburg begins: Work Boat Tech learned: Alphabet Novgorod's borders expand
Turn 146 (310 BC) Research begun: Sailing Tech learned: Meditation Tech learned: Agriculture Tech learned: Polytheism Tech learned: Archery Tech learned: Sailing Research begun: Priesthood St. Petersburg begins: Galley St. Petersburg begins: Settler
@dV, Sorry about the avoid growth, I had the unhappy face problem that I was dealing with and that seemed like the easy solution. I should have let you know in my post.
My only suggestion on trading is this, I always start at the bottom of the score list and try to trade with civs that are behind me if possible. I would not be affraid to trade Alphabet for Math.
I agree with Ronnie1. Trade Alpha for Math, I guess Vic would be the best for it. Then we would like to go Construction (cats) instead of Priesthood.
I noticed JC & Alex don't need our iron. This could mean trouble. OTOH, Gandhi warns us that his *chariots* could destroy us. Yeah, right. And he has the Hindu holy city inside his borders. I think he could be a nice target for our expansion plans. Not sure when we would be ready for it, though.
@dV, Sorry about the avoid growth, I had the unhappy face problem that I was dealing with and that seemed like the easy solution. I should have let you know in my post.
Having never used the avoid growth before, it basically means that once the food box is full, your food production is getting thrown away? Seems to me there are limited situations where that is the best option in a food-rich city, as there are food poor tiles to work, or food rich can tolerate the unhappy penalty an then whip away the unhappy pop at some point. Or were you using it to automatically move citizens to food poor tiles? Now that scientists are available, that will be our new avoid growth option
My only suggestion on trading is this, I always start at the bottom of the score list and try to trade with civs that are behind me if possible. I would not be affraid to trade Alphabet for Math.
I usually do this myself, but I spent some time looking at relations and tried to minimize trades that might make close neighbors unhappy or antagonize otherwise friendly leaders. So, for example, Gandhi was pretty friendly with everyone he knew, so we got no "trade with worst enemy" relations hits from trading with him. Frederick was at the bottom, Capac in the middle, so I wasn't too far off that rule
I agree with Ronnie1. Trade Alpha for Math, I guess Vic would be the best for it. Then we would like to go Construction (cats) instead of Priesthood.
I noticed JC & Alex don't need our iron. This could mean trouble. OTOH, Gandhi warns us that his *chariots* could destroy us. Yeah, right. And he has the Hindu holy city inside his borders. I think he could be a nice target for our expansion plans. Not sure when we would be ready for it, though.
I like trading alpha for math, so we get something for it before we have to give it away as tribute. If we trade it with Mao is that better for relations points with him, or do we hold out for his horseback riding in a later trade for alpha?
Two paths after that. We could go straight for contstruction and catapults. But here is a second idea. Lets go priesthood, code of laws, construction. Why? We have the SW island to colonize and fortify, and a lot of axes and galleys to make before any invasions. So there is time to get Col while we do that. Col lets us go to caste system, and that means we can put 3 or 4 scientists in Moscow and St.Pete for mucho research and GP points. Col lets us build (or pop rush) courthouses to cut maintenance costs if they get big. and it founds Conf. It lets us build temples and monasteries even if we don't adopt as state religion, right? More happiness, small boost to science.
Ultimately, the two victory types hinge on science. I think that early CoL will be a science slingshot for us.
At current science rate, 31 turns to either CoL or Const. We can probably make a GS in Moscow in 12 turns with two scientists in it. What might we be able to lightbulb with a GS? If a GS could give us CoL, then go const. If GS can rush const, then go CoL with research path.
I could spend the 3 turns on priesthood, then handoff the game to C63 for a final decision on Col vs Const. I would love it if using a GS could give us both at the same time (research one, lightbulb the other)
We ought to start making a list of who we want as friends, and who we can tolerate as enemies. I guess I've already put Monte on the enemies list, but he would likely do that himself anyway.
I don't have access to the save now, but I suppose we can get Priesthood from trade easily, if not from the current contacts, from one of we're about to contact. Which are our current options techwise?
About GP lightbulbing, there is a handy spreadsheet I attach below. There is a column for each GP type, and we receive the 1st tech from top to bottom, provided we already have its pre-reqs.
In our case, I think we would get Compass from a GP scientist. Not worthwhile, IMO.
Having never used the avoid growth before, it basically means that once the food box is full, your food production is getting thrown away? Seems to me there are limited situations where that is the best option in a food-rich city, as there are food poor tiles to work, or food rich can tolerate the unhappy penalty an then whip away the unhappy pop at some point. Or were you using it to automatically move citizens to food poor tiles? Now that scientists are available, that will be our new avoid growth option
I believe the computer actually stores the food, but I'm not 100% sure, it just doesn't let the city grow in population. If the food is not stored then you are 100% correct, we (I) should always let pop grow and rush the unhappiness away somewhere down the line. And yes you are right about the scientists now being the best option! You should just play around with all of those automation buttons sometime. I don't always agree that the computer makes the best choices, but sometimes it will throw something in that has slipped by me. I like to use some level of automation in my personal games for this reason. When the population of a city grows, and especially if foreign troops are stomping about, the city will not always return to working the best tiles for the particular task at hand.
I think we need to start formulating a specific victory path. I made a little chart for myself where I listed all the techs needed for the 2 victory paths. Actually I listed all through Mass Media in 1 column, 18 total after alphabet. There are 30 techs required just to get to Rocketry on the spaceship path once we have alphabet, which we now do of course. There are 16 techs that overlap, which struck me as pretty good for us. But what concerns me the most is all the techs that are not on either path. The other part that I found interesting is the order that the computer would research in either line. Education is not on the way to Mass Media, but we are obviously going to want it for the science boost from the 1/2 price Universities. It of course is also the pre-req for Liberalism and the free tech from that. Constitution and Democracy are on neither list, nor is Communism.
As I thought about it some more, other factors started to roll around in the old brain. Even if we build the UN, there is no guarantee that we will get the required votes from the AI's. The spaceship is almost certain to be doable, it is just a question of how fast can it be completed. It is of course a long process and requires almost the entire tech tree to complete.
This of course leads back to the only logical choice, lets go to war. I think the fastest way to victory will be the back door diplomatic win. We conquer a large portion of the map, sign a PA with the rival that has the best relations with the other AI's when the time comes, make nicey nice with a small few AI's that are backwards in their ways (gifting etc...) and see if we can garner the required votes. We continue to research for space as the fallback if the votes are not there. What do you all think?
The other part that I found interesting is the order that the computer would research in either line... (snippet) ... I think the fastest way to victory will be the back door diplomatic win. We conquer a large portion of the map, sign a PA with the rival that has the best relations with the other AI's when the time comes, make nicey nice with a small few AI's that are backwards in their ways (gifting etc...) and see if we can garner the required votes. We continue to research for space as the fallback if the votes are not there. What do you all think?
Ronnie, I like your strategic plan. I think it is our best bet. In that context, we should also keep an eye on favoring research that gets us our Cossacks.
I, too, endorse trading Alphabet for Math. We might do well to target research at times aimed at giving us something juicy to trade with AI's that they don't have, much as dV has now done to get us a lot of the more elementary ones we lacked. Once we have Math, can we trade that for something else? Victoria and Alexander also have Math (and not Alphabet) and appear to be willing to trade it. Maybe trade with Victoria for Math, reserve Alphabet to trade with Mao for Horseback Riding, if he is ever willing to do so?
It appears that Montezuma has it in for us anyway. No point avoiding annoying him further. We should plan for an eventual war with him. He will likely attack but there is no reason to refrain from beating him to the punch at some point (except that he is halfway around the world). We should be careful about attacking Alexander, even if he looks like easy pickings, if doing so will anger other AI's whose favor we wish to curry, like Mao. Diplomatically, it seems wise to keep an eye on their interrelationships with each other for the purpose of managing which ones we pursue as friends and which we attack.
In preparation for eventual war, I'd like to see us create Galleys to 'garrision' our fishing vessels. So long as naval technology is even, it seems to deter a direct AI attack on them to park one galley there. That is especially important for Moscow's food supply. It might also be wise to put together a strike force of 3 or 4 Galleys to go after the fleets (usually comprised of one or two Galleys early) of AI Galleys that approach us with troops to land on the island during war. Beyond that, of course, we'll need a few more for our own offensive operations.
Early Construction makes sense if we intend to pursue aggressive war against an AI soon, to get Catapults. Otherwise, getting stuff that enhances our science makes more sense to me for the longterm and with regard to the other teams. A couple of them seem to be emphasizing culture as their strategic path. Also, almost 75% of our costs come from city maintenance.
When you open the science tree, just click on the end result that you are looking for. The tree will fill in all of the need techs to get the end result, and they will be numbered in the order that they will be researched.
2.I agree, it's a sound masterplan. How would it translate to our current research options?
Most excellent question! Of course the answer "depends" on the shorter term tactical decisions. Are we going to start "reducing" the number of voting bodies for a diplo win? Cats are good for this! Do we want to focus on fast research? Monotheism-Theology-Paper-Education-Liberalism
Our UU is not on the tech path for either of the victory conditions (no accident I'm sure). Harbors are our other bonus building, do we want to get Compass early to take advantage of the extra commerce?
It appears that Montezuma has it in for us anyway. No point avoiding annoying him further. We should plan for an eventual war with him. He will likely attack but there is no reason to refrain from beating him to the punch at some point (except that he is halfway around the world). We should be careful about attacking Alexander, even if he looks like easy pickings, if doing so will anger other AI's whose favor we wish to curry, like Mao. Diplomatically, it seems wise to keep an eye on their interrelationships with each other for the purpose of managing which ones we pursue as friends and which we attack.
As we all know from past experience, certain world leaders are rather difficult to reason with. Monty of course is at the top of this list, along with my other favorites Alex and Toku. Then there are the religious zealots led by Isabella, I throw Saladin and Musa in this group. Then there is the just plain unreasonable group, HC, Genghis Khan, Louis and Napolean and Catherine (but of course we won't see the lovely one this go round).
Who do we befriend? Mao will be a strong contender throughout. HC and Musa can both be very strong if they have some decent ground to work with.
Slightly , I once read a very good book titled "Guns, Germs and Steel". The premise is that all of human development can be traced back to the natural resources and topography that different "starting" groups of humans were dealt. Why were the Spanish able to send Conquistadors to South America instead of the Aztec's sailing to Spain. And why when the
100's of Conquistadors arrived, was their virtually no effective response from the millions of local warriors. It is a very interesting read, I would recommend it to anyone!
Back to the topic at hand. We need to keep trying to find the rest of the civs on the map. If "The Enterprise" and I'll name the eastern explorer "The Prometheous" are stopped by lack of OB agreements, then try to circle them back into the black holes we bypassed. The first option of course is to try and stay E-W for the circumnav bonus.
Great Scientist? I tend to try and build Academies early in the game for the cummulative effect. Also, the early GS will research a tech that costs less than a 1000 beakers, where a later tech will receive almost 2000 beakers. I try to identify which city/cities will have the greatest commerce or be able to support the most scientists and build there of course. St Petes is the obvious early choice if we want to go that way.
Research? Metal Casting leads to a number of future tech needs and is worth alot in trade value, it also opens up the possibility of the Colossus.
Construction for cats is is needed as well, how soon are we going to go to war? CoL I think can wait, execept that it opens the possibility of the GS getting Philosophy which is huge trade bait. I believe science and victory condition are where we need to focus our discussions.
If I recall, none of our known AI have priesthood. This means that we can potentially beat them to CoL as priesthood is the short path. If we do, how is the trade value for that? Regardless of whether it is on any of our research paths, CoL is essential for any enlarging empire as it enables courthouses and forbidden palace.
Lets not forget that we are set to no city razing. So if we go to war, we are stuck with any city we capture. And if we don't capture, why go to war? So CoL would seem to be essential to any war of conquest.
Put four scientists in a city and get 12 GP points doubled to 24. Pretty fast generation of GP, academies, etc. Two seafood resources can support that.
Found confus. Don't make it state religion, but gives us temples for happiness increase when we need it.
Seems to me we have to spend time massing troops anyway, so why not CoL while we make axes and spears, and galleys, and (wow we have a lot to build before we go to war!).
I was really impressed in my test game with how fast research went with multiple specialists. In fact, the point of Guns, Germs and Steel (didn't read the book but saw the "movie" ... er PBS special) was that agricultural surpluses allowed specialists to advance technology.
Anyway, are we agreed on trading alphabet for math with Victoria? I don't think that anyone we know has anything else that we don't have, except Mao's horseback riding. And are we agreed that we want to settle the island in the SW?
I guess I am still waiting for a consensus on research path. If everyone wants construction next, I'll go with that, but I really think early CoL would be a huge science boost given the food supply we have.
I'm easy with both choices. I'll gladly continue with the plan in my turnset.
I do believe we need some early conquest to enlarge our territory, and I think the Indian/English island to our west could be the prime target. Therefore, Construction for cats could do marvels for it. I do think cats are overpowered in the early game, if you can afford to suicide a few.
On the other hand, courthouses will be essential for us to afford to keep those captured cities (no razing), thus CoL is indeed a good choice. But I would be surprised if we manage to found Confucianism. Someone we still haven't met (maybe Izzie?) has a size 8 city with Oracle built around 1300BC, and the Parthenon! It's much likely they'll get CoL first.
About our long term planning, I guess we should stick with slavery if we need production (units, buildings), or caste system if we need science, as in da Vinci's suggestion above. The thing is, being able to trade tech from potentially 17 other civs, do we really need that much beakers instead of hammers? Just a thought.
I can see us rotating between slavery and caste system: slavery, pop rush all cities, then in 5 turns back to caste system for 10, if we want to do both.
I think that we can get a GS in about 6 turns if we can put 4 scientist in a city. Next one will take 12 turns. Then we could run fewer scientists if need more hammers. Put up two academies early that way, and the boost to our science will be enormous. Moscow has enough food to support a lot of scientists once Novgorod gets set up as a military city, an Yaros has a couple of hills for hammer production. Rostov may turn out to be more of a commerce city by default (only hammers are from the pasture ... workers are on the way).
Seems none of our cities are really ideal for pure specialization, as we have mix of hammers and gems in a couple.
I think that CoL plays to our strength in that the GP points of the extra scientists are doubled. Plus, by the time CoL comes in, adding scientists will speed the production of contruction. So we get the pair faster by going CoL first rather than second. Can you ever have too much science? Cossacks are so dominant that I think anything that gets us there faster is a good thing.
If we think we can build enough troops for defense, an attack stack, and enought galleys to move them, before const is done as the tech after priest and CoL, then maybe go const first. But I am not clear that we can build so fast that we do not have time to go CoL, then Const.
If we don't care about founding confus, we could potentially sell priesthood around for a cash infusion to keep research at 100%.
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Even if we build the UN, there is no guarantee that we will get the required votes from the AI's.
The spaceship is almost certain to be doable, it is just a question of how fast can it be completed. It is of course a long process and requires almost the entire tech tree to complete.
![[offtopic]](/images/smilies/offtopic.gif "Offtopic [offtopic]")
, I once read a very good book titled "Guns, Germs and Steel". The premise is that all of human development can be traced back to the natural resources and topography that different "starting" groups of humans were dealt. Why were the Spanish able to send Conquistadors to South America instead of the Aztec's sailing to Spain. And why when the 
