SGOTM 03 - Gypsy Kings

[da_Vinci]

A few quick thoughts (rare for me, I know !! )

Yaros is working a 1 hammer tile on my screen (jungle hill). Move to coast takes a turn off both pop and Code. Or makes MC due in 15.

We have three workers at Rostov. Why not two pair, one in east one in west. A pair at Novgorod could chop us an army right quick. HUH!!?? THE RICE AT ROSTOV IS ALREADY FARMED (4F) AND WE HAVE A WORKER PAIR BUILDING A FARM IN 5 ?? Didn't know the game would let you do that!

Two galleys in four trips also brings 16, if we launch the attack at a coast close to home, we land 4 every other turn at Madras. So we might be able to go to war sooner if we attack closer. Also, I prefer a short sea route for logistics, as I'd hate to lose a galley full of troops on the water.

We could use another pair of workers. Maybe put St. Pete on this task, or on a workboat to explore North of Hatty or SW of Julius.

Might use Yaros and Rostov to pop rush ships, overflow hammers into the libraries.

In St. Pete, after the WB in 2, put in a second scientist, and we get a GS in 10 turns for an academy (Moscow or St.Pete).

MC or Code next ... but you promised! Just kidding. MC makes a lot of sense; forges, Colossus shot, need it for caravels, which we may need to complete circumnav.

Be mindful that Julius has scouted out our homeland.

dV

 

[Conquistador 63]

I think we need to send a worker to the small island or build one there asap.

I know we talked about CoL after Construction, but will it really benefit us right now? Our population cannot really support lots of specialists at this point. We will probably want to pop rush in captured cities to quell the ungrateful newcomers to the wonderful Russian way of life! That means sticking with slavery for a little while at least. I think metal casting will be more useful in the short run. Forges will boost our happy limits and our production. Nobody has MC at this point, (good trade bait) and we can get the inside track to Colossus if we want to try that, (a good wonder on a water map).

MC does seem a good idea. However, I think there is someone who already knows it (I don't have access to the game now). Also, nobody has construction, they'll probably start offering trades for (or demanding) it. IIRC, other techs already known are Currency, Monarchy, Literature, CoL (btw Confu was found around 600BC, ages before our previous debate on getting to it first ), Compass.

@dV:
1. Not sure about the worker stuff, posting an updated screenshot of our island would help. But the message you saw is common, it just means the improvement has just been completed. Btw I prefer to control workers one at a time (even when they are working the same tile), to avoid one of them being idle when the other completed a task which requires an odd number of turns. I remember I moved a worker from gems not yet on fat cross of isthmus city to rice, he could get back in 1 turn.
2. Yaros working a bad tile, not sure about it (where is this city again?) Could have been one of these quirks upon loading the save.
3. We should get plantations on StPete's spices ASAP for the +1 happiness and trade.
About the island city, StPete is finishing a WB for it. Next could be a worker. In that city itself a granary 1st for the poprushes, all good tiles are already in its borders. The library comes later, of course.

 

[Joemama]

I am at work right now, but should have a chance to play tonight (about 9 hours). It seems my turnset will be spent preparing for war.

I will make a research determination after I look at the tech screen, but I think we should research whatever we can trade the best.

Is there any harm in shopping construction around? I feel on Emperor, we need to trade techs in order to keep up.

 

[Ronnie1]

@ Joemama, We're only on Monarch, and I would be leary about shopping the military techs as we prepare to go to war. I would hate for us to trade it to someone who then trades it to Gandhi and we show up unprepared for the cats in defense or even worse elephants in Delhi.

@ All, C63 is right about stacked workers sometimes being idle, working them together but not in a stack is a better option. He is also right about the Spices ASAP. Commerce = trade and science!

I think the island city could pop rush the granary when it hits size 2 and then build its own worker. I know this contradicts max pop asap but the first pop is the easiest to make up and then we don't need to divert any resources from the mainland.

Tech situation is this;
Victoria has Monarchy, CoL and Currency but doesn't want to start trading this just yet.
HC has Currency, but fears we are becoming to advanced.
Alex has Literature, but fears we are becoming to advanced.
Mao has Metal Casting, Currency and Compass, but fears we are becoming to advanced.
It appears trading is off the table for a little while at least.

I checked the game settings again for security. No City Razing, Permanent Alliances, and Aggressive AI. Means they start out grumpier than normal and favor war over diplomacy.

We will want to make sure we keep all of our cities well garrisoned, galleys can show up anywhere. I vote for some solid troop building.

@dV, Agree on the shorter passage idea, that's why I think we need to scout the coast on Gandi's east side. If we can take Dehli first, it can effectively cripple Gandhi's ability to retaliate. The passage off of our furthest west side is only 1 tile as well.

Might use Yaros and Rostov to pop rush ships, overflow hammers into the libraries.

We could also pop rush the Libraries and overflow into galleys.

Also, Could someone please enlighten me as to the meaning of IIRC?

 

[Joemama]

I think IIRC = If I Recall Correctly

 

[da_Vinci]

Not sure about the worker stuff, posting an updated screenshot of our island would help. But the message you saw is common, it just means the improvement has just been completed. Btw I prefer to control workers one at a time (even when they are working the same tile), to avoid one of them being idle when the other completed a task which requires an odd number of turns. I remember I moved a worker from gems not yet on fat cross of isthmus city to rice, he could get back in 1 turn.

I would agree that it just meant that it was completed if it said farm in 1 but it says FARM IN 5 !!. The rice will only make 3 food undeveloped, and 4 food farmed, so it might look unfarmed on quick glance if expecting a whole loaf after farm. Just want Joemama to check to be sure that we are not destroying our existing farm to build ... a farm!! We will know for sure when he hits end turn, if the workers say farm in 4, then

@ Joemama: You might want to look hard at the diplomacy screen to have a sense of whom to appease, and whom we can afford to reject as far as tribute demands go. I've been trying to keep Mao happy, and less worried if Hatty is upset (her UU is obsolete, and if she comes after us, maybe we go take her pyramids! )

It occurs to me that saving a screenshot of the relations and tech screen may be useful if you have the windows key that takes you back to the desktop with game still runnning. That way, you can review the lay of the diplomatic land while considering response to a demand (which you can't otherwise). Unless AlanH considers this an exploit ??

Seems like we will not sail the invasion for a while, although maybe we can do it with 2 or three ships to launch sooner? If we hit Madras sooner with a stack of 8 (two galleys to transport in two trips) and stream the rest in ASAP, do we get to Dehli at about the same time, but with Gandhi weaker due to loss of the city?

dV

 

[Conquistador 63]

I'm pretty sure the workers will be ready for work next turn. One could go to Yaros to build the gem mine, the other two to build plantations in StPete. My thoughts on city builds:
Moscow & Novgorod: cats!
St Pete: not sure but I think we should let it grow a little, at some point, to use the future developed tiles.
Rostov: workers
Yaros is 3 turns away from being able to poprush library (2pop, regrowing to 3 almost immediately). Then it would build galleys.
Yekat%@*: granary till size 2. Then change to worker, poprushing it when possible (45h), resuming granary. No need to have granary ready if pop won't be growing (building worker). Library next, if a religion doesn't pop in it by then. Else, barracks cause it could be a nice production city.

GL Joemama!

 

[da_Vinci]

I'm pretty sure the workers will be ready for work next turn. One could go to Yaros to build the gem mine, the other two to build plantations in StPete.

We could chop in Novgorod rather quickly with two workers in tandem (agree to control them separately to avoid waste) If workers are paired, you get to to use one upgrade sooner than if each works alone: two farms in 8 vs, 1 in 4, 1 in 4 after that (8 total). Gain of paired workers is 4 turns of enhanced production, if there pop to work it.

Or for chopping, chop twice as fast, for speedy production such as troops in Novgorod.

Have not heard a response to the attack with 8 units and 2 galleys, with reinforcements close behind idea. What does everyone think? Are we really waiting 33 turns to go to war? Will Gandhi have longbows or cats by then? I don't see how grabbing what we can close and quick isn't a good idea. If we nail him with some war weariness, that hamstrings him in adition to the city loss (and taking Madras effectively cuts off any benefits to Ghandi from Calcutta).

dV

 

[Ronnie1]

@ All, I was not saying "no" to attacking Madras, but if Delhi is sitting just in the black off of our far west coast! I think we should stick a warrior on that galley and do some quick recon!

 

[Joemama]

Just about to play my turns and thought I would break down my gameplan.

First Mao's relations: Alex +4, H.C. +2, Hasy +1.
Now Gandhi: Vicky +7, Ceasar +5, Toku +5, Alex +1.

Mao and company take priority, but I will try to appease the others as well.

We are really going to piss some people off by hitting Gandhi. I think it is worth discussing if it would be easier to take on Mao, Alex, and HC as opposed to Gandhi, Vicky, Ceasar, and Toku. I won't be declaring war in my turnset, I am curious what people think.

My goals this turn are to build up the invasion force, scout Gandhi out, and find some freakin Buddhists!!!

 

[da_Vinci]

Just about to play my turns and thought I would break down my gameplan.

First Mao's relations: Alex +4, H.C. +2, Hasy +1.
Now Gandhi: Vicky +7, Ceasar +5, Toku +5, Alex +1.

Mao and company take priority, but I will try to appease the others as well.

We are really going to piss some people off by hitting Gandhi. I think it is worth discussing if it would be easier to take on Mao, Alex, and HC as opposed to Gandhi, Vicky, Ceasar, and Toku. I won't be declaring war in my turnset, I am curious what people think.

My goals this turn are to build up the invasion force, scout Gandhi out, and find some freakin Buddhists!!!

Vicky and Mao are the tech leaders, but Mao has more score that Vicky, so he must have something else. He is near top in food, prod, GNP. We are not bad for food and prod. Alex is to weak to count. That said, If we attack Alex, we might piss off Mao, but Mao is Jewish while the others are Hindu, so maybe friends with Mao won't work long term anyway? Or get Gandhi, later convert to Hind to repair with Caesar and Vicky, and since that miffs Mao, go get Alex? Eventually whittle Mao down and ally with Vic?

What about favorite civics?

dV

 

[Joemama]

Finished playing, will try to put together a writeup tomorrow. Rather uneventful until the end. The British plopped a city down on our freaking continent!!!!

 

[Ronnie1]

@ Joemama, Nice job!

A couple of logistical questions though. We are building a galley in Novgorod where we have a barracks and building a cat in St Petes where we don't. I think we should avoid this in the future if possible.
I really like the sword stationed near Gandhis horses!

@ All, Now what? Dehli is obviously not the first target! Also from looking at Gandhis' forces, I think we can move on him sooner than planned. As soon as we get 2 galleys and 4 cats I think we can go. Cut the contient in half and then move on Delhi. Bummer that Stonehenge is in Bombay. I guess it will just take a little longer. If we take Madras first, pillage the copper and horses, the rest should not be very difficult! Simple and effective!
Are we agreed on the landing site of the forrested hill NE of Madras?

The roster order is,

Joemama - just played
Igelkott - UP NOW
Scout214 - on deck
Ronnie1 - lickin his chops
da_Vinci - waiting
C63 - waiting

Confusion - Injured Reserve until further notice

 

[da_Vinci]

Good work Joemama!

Of note ...

Gandhi is now friendly with Vicky, so she won't like us after the attack. Mao is pleased with us, annoyed with Gandhi. Do we invite him to join the war? Joint wars improve chance at PA.

Trading: We have a trade opp with Gandhi before the war ... get lit for code of laws. Also, could get 50 gold from Capac for poly and up science rate. Could give mono to Mao for 40 gold (maybe as a bribe for joining war?), and calendar to Monte for 60. Might as well get something for them while we can. Could promote some warriors to axes, which we might need if Vicky declares war.

After MC, how about civil service? Bureacracy and halfway to maces. Then machinery (maces) and optics (caravel for circumnav). Then chase cossacks, then whatever we need for the PA

In our game, we have power parity with all but Mao and Julius. Cantebury is actually an asset, as maybe it makes Vicky think twice about war with us.

GS next turn (actually in theory both cities will make one, but I'm sure we just get one, and the cost rises for the other). Academy in Moscow, I assume?

Be mindful that when we declare war, our troops in India under open borders will be miraculously transported somewhere else ...

In 4 turns, the galley is done in Novgorod, and pop goes to 6 in Yaros, at which time we can pop rush that galley.

Gandhi lacks HBride. One spear ought to hold off any chariots. Bring axes to defend against his. I figure we land cats and axes wave 1, then land sword + 1 spear wave 2 (by which time defenses are down). After Madras, Bombay, then Delhi?

Worst case: Vicky and Julius both declare on us in support of Gandhi. Are we ready for that?

City thoughts:

Moscow: Not growing. If Moscow makes the GS, consider dropping back to one scientist, work 2F 1C to grow pop, make cats, but later poprush lighthouse (two more food from seafood). The back to 2 scientists. If we do that, then academy goes in St Pete I would think (or even Yaros). There will be a second GS soon for academy in Moscow.

If GS not in Moscow, then keep 2 scientists as next GS comes from Moscow. Pump out cats. Academy in Moscow (ready for Bureaucracy).

St Pete: After cat, how about lighthouse (poprush at cost = 2 pop?). Or a worker. Other units build too slow here.

Novgorod: Pump cats after galley. Let's mine that hill. Also, chop forest? Or hold that in "reserve"?

Rostov: Pop 6 next turn. I might poprush the lighthouse and then make galleys there, completing them with poprushes. We need coastal defense. When enough pop, add second scientist.

Yaros: I think we pop rush the galley after pop grows, then a barracks. Mine the hill. Eventually, this gets an academy too.

Yekat: After mine, chop the library, then pop rush it if needed. Eventually I'd like a spear and a second axe there to prevent sneak attacks.

Long term ... Bombay looks like a great place for FP. Vicky lacks contiguous land, and eventually should fall to our armies. Then we tech with our "double empire."

dV

 

[igelkott]

I'll play my turns tomorrow [central european time ]

 

[Joemama]

Well it looks like many of you have already taken a look at the save, but I will post my turn recap anyway.

Putting a list of Mao and Gandhi's relations did help me throughout my turns. I think this would be very usefull to do for a few selected targets before each turnset.

1. Rice is done, I had it shown to be competed in 5 turns as well. Oh well. When Rostov finished its build, I decided to let it put hammers into a lighthouse for 4 turns to grow one pop before starting a worker. Any thoughts on this?
2. Our axeman and swordsman land in India.
3. Nice Barb city in north along with 2 huts!
4. Trade gems to HC for 1 gpt (better than nothing I guess). Sistene Chapel built.
5. I spy with my little eye an Indian Chariot. I gues we will need a couple of spears.
6. Just noticed that Monte has 9 ivory!!! Why won't the idiot trade us one.
7. Made a couple more trades. Could have traded for dye, but none of our cities were at the happiness limit. Accidently traded to Gandhi. Should probably cancel in 10 turns.
8. Monte Declares war on Fredrick!!
9. COL -> Metalcasting
10. Victoria offers us Lit +70 gold for HBR. I thought awhile on this and declined. She is buddy with Gandhi and we don't want him to get it (The list of Gandhi's friends paid off here).
11. Renegotiate a trade with Mao for 1 extra gpt.
12. Alex completes Hanging Gardens. Does this make him more ripe of a target later?
13. Vicky asks us to cancel our deas with the Greek. I decline, Victoria may be next on our hit list.
14. zzz, I am getting sleepy. I hope I haven't made any stupid mistakes like building a galley in a city with a barracks and a unit in a city without one .
15. The British are coming, the British are coming!!! Victoria places a city on our island! It is not in a good place, but we should make sure we have sufficient culture to prevent her from stealing our gems.

Overall, I added 2 cats, a sword, ax, archer, HA, and spear to the invasion force. The swordsman in India is poised to raise the horses. The axeman can be recalled to the home island to the rest of the invasion force. It might make sense to send our spare warrior to India to give last minute recon. Who cares what happens to him when declaring war bounces him out of India's borders.

I did very little whipping this turnset. I thought I would whip a couple of units when our core cities reached the happiness caps, but calendar resources kept me from reaching those caps.

Would it be worthwile for someone to post a screen of the Indians with a battle plan? My worry with no city razing, is that in order to eliminate an opponent, we may have to absorb several crappy cities.

The workboats have been getting a bit bogged down. I would not be suprised if this custom map separated the world into 2 groups of islands accesable only by caravels, hence us not finding any Budhists yet. Also, the Enterprise name did not show up on my save.

Looking forward to war before I play again!

 

[Conquistador 63]

I'm away from my Civ computer for a week or so, but I'll still have access to the internet. I'd appreciate if anyone would be kind enough to post screenshots or turn logs, so this way I could still follow the discussions.

 

[da_Vinci]

Would it be worthwile for someone to post a screen of the Indians with a battle plan? My worry with no city razing, is that in order to eliminate an opponent, we may have to absorb several crappy cities.

Alternative is to leave the crappy cities in enemy hands, raze all the infrastructure ("bomb into the stone age"). Only problem is that we may need to take the crap to get out of a culture squeeze in the good cities we capture. A reason to start capturing the good cities first, then see what needs be done with the crap.

dV

 

[Joemama]

We will also get "We wish to join the motherland" negative happiness.

 

[da_Vinci]

I'm away from my Civ computer for a week or so, but I'll still have access to the internet. I'd appreciate if anyone would be kind enough to post screenshots or turn logs, so this way I could still follow the discussions.

I am heading home from work and can post some screenies for you. What would you like? Maps of course, but any city displays? Any advisors (like maybe the relations screen)?

Your wish is my command, oh Gypsy King!

dV