SGOTM 03 - Gypsy Kings

da_Vinci · Dec 18, 2006

Conquistador 63 said:
Good job, Igelkott!
This week I won't have access to my Civ4 computer, so not much input from me. Just don't forget to keep pumping the cats, we might have a few tough indian nuts to crack!
Also, please don't waste our hard-earned gold upgrading warriors! It is the worst deal we can get in terms of gold*hammers! Much better to produce new troops, disband the older ones if we can't afford them.

I was thinking more of a deterent value to suddenly adding four axes to the force, which might boost our power and reduce risk of a war with Caesar. Have never thought in depth about whether upgrades are worth it or not, so some instruction here might be in order. Maybe only upgrade promoted troops, and even that sparringly? Or is it just the warrior upgrade that is not worth it?

That having been said, might we want to keep some cash on hand to upgrade the warriors in the event of a sneak attack? Don't invest it unless we have to (sounds like a good compromise to me

). I suspect you would agree that upgrading to an axe or a spear is worth it if it means the difference between a city holding and a city falling

I would like to see a few more galleys, so we can intercept amphibious landings. If Caesar were to decide to land 4 praetorians on Yekat, or in India to aid Gandhi, or on our homeland, in 1 or 2 turns, we might be hard pressed to prevent serious damage. So what does everyone think of pop rushing in Rostov (finish galley) and in Yaros (finish barracks)? And in boosting pop in Moscow by moving scientist to grass for 4 turns (makes pop rush of forge available in an emergency?) Just call me REMA (Russian Emergency Management Agency). :lol:

I think these moves are consistent with the mantra of more troops, and if we don't need them for homeland defense, they can go kick Gandhi :ar15:

As an aside, other vanillas have much less power than us, so maybe in their universes, Caesar will go kick their butts !!! :goodjob:

dV

PS I thought that the trade advisor would tell us what they would trade, but I see it only tells us what they might trade. Looks like we have to go into the dialogue to know for sure.

dV

Ronnie1 · Dec 18, 2006

@ Scout,
My 2 cents are posted on the last page. I'm with C63 on avoiding the upgrade thing unless we are completely desperate, which we are not at this moment. After Civil Service, I think we should research Machinery, and then we are producing Maces, a fine counter to Caesar's Praet's. 1 thing I forgot to say was that a medic promo or 2 will help us speed the assault on Gandhi. I try to keep at least 1-2 defensive units in each attacking stack and promote at least 1 of them medic. I promote my city attackers with the CR I,II,III of course and try to protect them by making sure there is a "sacrificial" lead attacker or 2 until the combat odds are more in my favor. Lots of cats is the easiest way to go, they have a 25% chance to withdraw, and of course are doing collateral damage every attack. We may also want to produce a few Archers because they are relatively cheap and get city defense bonuses. So I guess that's my 3 cents worth!

Joemama · Dec 18, 2006

I also agree that the threat from JC should not be one of our top priorities now. Although we are not ahead of him in the power curve, both Ghandi and Alex are well below us and would seem to make attractive targets. Plus as we continue to focus on units, our power rating will only go up. If he were a human player, he would probably try a prat rush, but I don't think the AI is very good at recognizing subtle advantages such as utilizing UU.

da_Vinci · Dec 18, 2006

Joemama said:
I also agree that the threat from JC should not be one of our top priorities now. Although we are not ahead of him in the power curve, both Ghandi and Alex are well below us and would seem to make attractive targets. Plus as we continue to focus on units, our power rating will only go up. If he were a human player, he would probably try a prat rush, but I don't think the AI is very good at recognizing subtle advantages such as utilizing UU.

My concern with JC is not that we should go attack him, just that we need to have a contingency plan to be ready if he attacks us. While Alex is weak, he is pals with Mao, and I think we want to keep Mao happy for possible PA later.

dV

Scout214 · Dec 19, 2006

General, sir..

Adopted the attitude:
Kick 'em in the knee
Kick 'em in the head
We want blood
Red, red, red!

Turn 197
Pop rushed Galley in Rostov
Transported Horse Archer to India

Turn 198
Sunk Indian galley that attacked one of our galleys
Missionary prosthelytized Rome
Continued siege of Calcutta
Axeman in woods killed Indian Axeman W of Madras
HA killed Indian archer on Copper, destroyed mine
2 Roman galleys scouting our coast, no troop launch

Turn 199
Indian Axeman attacked Madras, killed our archer
Spearman killed Indian Axeman from previous line
Lost catapult in siege of Calcutta to damage their troops
Calcutta taken

Turn 200
Persian galley spying our coast
Reorganizing troops in India for next assault
Building archer in Madras, worker in Calcutta

Turn 201
Incans asked us to join them in war against nasty Egyptians
Refused but bribed them 10 gold
Traded rice for corn with Mao
Started Jewish temple is Rostov (happiness issues)
Started barracks in Yekaterinburg

Turn 203
Found Saladin - annoyed
Victoria entered Golden Age

Turn 204
Killed archer S of Bombay
Started siege of Bombay
Started galley in St Pete

Turn 205
Scouted Delhi w/galley:
1 Spearman, 4 archers, 2 fast workers
Worker started gem mine near Novgorod
Dropped research to 40% owing to cash flow drain

Turn 206
Finished Civil Service
Started Machinery
Finished forge in Moscow, started catapult
Caesar finished Great Library
Traded Civil Service to Victoria for Currency and Compass

Turn 208
Captured Bombay
Lost HA, swordsman, cat during assault
Agreed to OB with Egypt
Now Enterprise and Prometheus can continue circumnavigation
Island that contains Egypt, Incas is long - each WB on opposite sides, one must go all the way around to meet the other
India refused Peace Offer (offered 230 gold themselves; asked 170 + Drama + Bangalore)

Turn 210
Moscow started Heroic Epic

Many cats on our island about to transfer to India. We can feasibly go after either Delhi or Bangalore next. Should be able to eradicate India soon. Only alternative consideration is to make temp peace to get Drama out of them first.

Rome no threat yet.

We're 26 points behind Mao for 1st place. May be able to achieve that upon expunging India.

It's all yours, Ronnie! Enjoy!!

Scout214 · Dec 19, 2006

I avoided pop rushing much. Waited for Ronnie to do that where we need it since he understands the strategic planning it involves better than me. War weariness is starting to take a toll on our happiness.

I think we should give some thought to getting courthouses going in many cities to reduce overhead costs. That would help us to keep our research % higher.

Ronnie1 · Dec 19, 2006

Great Job Scout, :goodjob:

I just took a quick look at the save, it looks like we've really got him now. I'll have a better look at it tomorrow, advise as to my plan, and take recommendations before I proceed. I'll post some screen shots as well to help C63 and anyone else who can't open the save for some reason.

da_Vinci · Dec 19, 2006

Ronnie1 said:
Great Job Scout,

I just took a quick look at the save, it looks like we've really got him now. I'll have a better look at it tomorrow, advise as to my plan, and take recommendations before I proceed. I'll post some screen shots as well to help C63 and anyone else who can't open the save for some reason.

First thought before even downloading the save: are we running bureaucracy yet?

Might look to see if we want one more pop rush in a few cities, and consider whether to also revolt to caste system, if we are ready for 3 or 4 scientist in Moscow or St Pete. However, if we still need the whip in India, then Caste System can wait.

Addendum: Looking at save ... I don't think we want Heroic Epic in Moscow, but rather in Novgorod. No hammers in invested, so can stop it before we give the next turn order. Need other national wonders in our capital later. I would just build the troops until the conquest is done, then maybe H Epic in Nov.

Also, we appear to be chopping jungle on a tile between Rostov and Moscow that neither city can work.

I think we should whip the worker in Calcutta and get those pigs pastured. Calc and Madras can then share the pig to regrow pop to poprush libraries for cultural expansion. Might even switch to worker in Madras and pop rush that too, as we can then chop forest to speed production in Calcutta.

Bangalore is on a hill, so the archers will be tough. So I think we go straight for Delhi when we get some more cats landed (if not sooner).

Let me get a quick screenie or two up for C63 (five on the way).

@ C63: Agent Tamborine says to be sure to guard this intelligence dispatch with your life!

dV

Joemama · Dec 19, 2006

First thanks to DaVinci for the screenshots. You have made me less prodcutive at work

.

Things are looking very nice on the war front. My vote is to press on and finish India off. We would not want them to do something stupid and get longbows. Also, the sooner we get India gone, the sooner we can make the cities productive for us and the sooner we can war again :devil:

.

Would it be worth it to start running some priests somewhere to get a great person? Does anyone know if the Hindu or Jewish shrine has been built yet? Both could end up being nice moneymakers for us.

I am itching to spend the 400 gold we have in the bank. Since we are so close to maces, would it be worth it to burn through our nest egg to get machinery faster? Then when we have the ability to produce maces, we could run at 0% science and build our cash back up for upgrades if needed in the Indian war or for homeland defense.

Ronnie1 · Dec 19, 2006

@ All,

Thanks for the screens dV!

First thought before even downloading the save: are we running bureaucracy yet?

Not Yet, nor Hereditary Rule, 2 turns anarchy required for both.

I am itching to spend the 400 gold we have in the bank. Since we are so close to maces, would it be worth it to burn through our nest egg to get machinery faster? Then when we have the ability to produce maces, we could run at 0% science and build our cash back up for upgrades if needed in the Indian war or for homeland defense.

100% science now gives us Maces in 5 turns, I'm leaning towards this option.

Would it be worth it to start running some priests somewhere to get a great person? Does anyone know if the Hindu or Jewish shrine has been built yet? Both could end up being nice moneymakers for us.

The Hindu shrine has already been built in Delhi!

Also, we appear to be chopping jungle on a tile between Rostov and Moscow that neither city can work.

To irrigate the rice for an extra food I'm sure.

Addendum: Looking at save ... I don't think we want Heroic Epic in Moscow, but rather in Novgorod. No hammers in invested, so can stop it before we give the next turn order. Need other national wonders in our capital later. I would just build the troops until the conquest is done, then maybe H Epic in Nov.

Agree 100%, troops now, buildings later, and I like HE in Nov also!

I think we should whip the worker in Calcutta and get those pigs pastured. Calc and Madras can then share the pig to regrow pop to poprush libraries for cultural expansion. Might even switch to worker in Madras and pop rush that too, as we can then chop forest to speed production in Calcutta.

It looks like the only city that has been whipped recently is Rostov, but it will see the whip again for the Temple as it is carrying 2 unhappy citizens at this point. I think I will whip the worker in Calcutta, I'm not sure what to do with Madras yet. I don't really like the archer build there except for happiness after Hereditary Rule.

Bangalore is on a hill, so the archers will be tough. So I think we go straight for Delhi when we get some more cats landed (if not sooner).

I kind of like this idea, if we get a few Maces into the action, Bangalore won't be so difficult.

I'll probably try to play later tonight.

Holiday Issues [party]

I'll be heading out for a week on Friday the 22nd, I'm not sure if I'll have access to a computer or not. I assume that most everyone will have some sort of holiday gathering planned, I hope so anyway

. I'm looking for feedback as to whether we will want to take a short leave from world domination ( oops I mean world Diplomacy ) for a few days??

Scout214 · Dec 19, 2006

I stopped where I did so that we could consider issues like pop rushing and Bureaucracy, and leave the execution to someone more experienced with the game. I also refrained from selling advancements so we could all take a look at where we are with that, too.

My original inclination was to finish off Calcutta, then sweep up the coast to Bangalore. Talking to dV about it, there were better reasons to hit Bombay next. It was just as easy to get to there and put us in a position to decide whether Delhi or Bangalore should be the next target. The cats can reach Bangalore quicker but Delhi is a greater prize. Either way, we should soon be able to eliminate India entirely. Hopefully I got us into position to do that with ease. Grabbing the Copper mine was the real key because it prevented them from building higher quality troops to oppose us. We're now facing just a couple of spearman and half a dozen archers. Another reason to take Bombay sooner was to cut Delhi off from places south and west of there in their area of domination that have resources but no cities. I destroyed some of their roads to prevent quick reinforcement. We'll need some workers over there soon.

By all means, review what I left building in each city and change to what makes better sense. You guys understand those nuances more keenly than me.

da_Vinci · Dec 19, 2006

Ronnie1 said:
I'll be heading out for a week on Friday the 22nd, I'm not sure if I'll have access to a computer or not. I assume that most everyone will have some sort of holiday gathering planned, I hope so anyway . I'm looking for feedback as to whether we will want to take a short leave from world domination ( oops I mean world Diplomacy ) for a few days??

I will be able to get my play in this week, sounds like C63 is away from his Civ machine until next week, so if I play 12/20 or 12/21, then maybe C63 plays about 12/27, and maybe next after New Year's? Or maybe even C63 after New Year if he needs it.

I wouldn't jostle the roster to speed, up, just wait for the holiday diversions to pass. During the lull, maybe I'll start and finish GOTM 13

Looking forward to it, as I am so much smarter now thanks to you guys ! :thanx:

On the chop issue, forgot that we can spread irrigation now.

I like the idea of 100% science followed by 0% science instead of 50% science. A nice way to boost research speed temporarily.

I think that getting to bureacracy soon will be a boost to science and hammers in Moscow. Question is also revolt to HR, and even Caste at the same time? Is there an anarchy discount?

We have compass now? Harbors, anyone (after we bury Gandhi)?

dV

Conquistador 63 · Dec 20, 2006

Joemama said:
First thanks to DaVinci for the screenshots. You have made me less productive at work .

I wanted to write the exact same words, but Joe beat me to it! :lol:

About the holidays issue, it looks our team is the 2nd most advanced in terms of turns played. So, we don't need to hurry. I am ok with a holiday break, maybe after Ronnie & da Vinci's turnsets.

Ronnie1 · Dec 20, 2006

@ All,
Now that was FUUUUUUUNNNNNNNN!

A brief synopsis, I made some trades for gold to the more scientifically challenged civs. This allowed me to run 100% science for my entire turnset! I researched Machinery and then Paper and then used the GS we got for lightbulbing most of Education!! We should have no problem being first to Liberalism. :cool:

After I got Paper I made some more trades for gold and maps, we should get the circumnav bonus at the start of the next turn! :cool:

Gandhi is down to Bangalore, the defenses have already been reduced to 0 and the first Mace is off the coast. Other units are moving in and healing from the assault on Delhi! The Delhi move worked out great. Let me back up though. The first attack of my turnset was a HA against the Explorer after he had moved onto open plains, a 90+% attack, of course we lost, :blush:

, but we must have gained some Karma. That was the only attack we lost in my turnset. After Delhi's defenses were reduced, I started the assault with a Collateral Damage promoted Cat. He withdrew :goodjob:

, so I went for the other CD Cat, he withdrew also :goodjob:

, now the CRII Cat had ~85% odds and won. The CRI Cat followed with a win and then the Swords took out the Archers and an Axe finished of the last Spear. :king:

Delhi is ours!! Now I have started to move workers from the homeland into the new world, lots of work to do. I only pop rushed a couple things when happiness became a problem. I did not change civics during my turnset. I didn't want to have the down turns during war and I was researching like crazy! :scan:

The homeland defenses are a little thin at this point and should probably be reinforced after Gandhi is eliminated. I have moved some of the production back to infrastructure because we have enough troops to finsih Gandhi at this point. I went for a Harbor in Moscow after the first Mace came out because it got a decent overflow of hammers and could be complete in just 3 turns. We will need to manage builds on the new continent closely until we get it up to speed. I'm thinking particlularly of Calcutta, I just let the Archer continue to build during my turnset, but we might want to put it on hold and build a barracks before it is allowed to finish. Calcutta has only been producing 1 H/t, but that will change when the copper mine comes back online.

The save is here!
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/Gypsy_Kings_SG003_AD0815_01.Civ4SavedGame
Session turn log from upload page is here!

Spoiler :

The current roster order is;

Ronnie1 - just played

da_Vinci - UP NOW

C63 - on deck

Joemama - waiting :scan:

Igelkott - waiting :cool:

Scout214 - waiting :king:

Confusion - Injured Reserve until further notice

igelkott · Dec 20, 2006

sweeet!!

da_Vinci · Dec 20, 2006

Great work R1! :goodjob:

The score rises relentlessly, and the power even more!! How long has it been since footballguys played a turnset? Maybe they are still in the ICU after seeing our chart. We will see if Murky can keep up. Real Ms. running in her heels, has fallen off the pace. :lol:

A couple of thoughts about where to go from here (I can play tomorrow night to give us a chance to discuss before, then it sounds like C63 resumes after the new year):

If I can get music and drama out of Gandhi for 10 turns of peace (so he can get his affairs in order), should I do that? What about if he only will give one?

Alternate twist: Mao is annoyed at Gandhi (he is annoyed at almost everyone). Shared wars help with PA ... should we invite Mao to declare on Gandhi? Might make some buddy-buddy points.

I am thinking of dusting off the whip in India (whip some courthouses), unless there are objections ... (are we going soft ?? :lol:

)

Any interest in running a galley and a unit up to those huts we found in the north?

And ... how soon do we eliminate Victoria?

I'll get a longer look tonight and post more discussion before the play tomorrow.

@ igelkott: cool new avatar! :cool:

dV

igelkott · Dec 20, 2006

da_Vinci said:
@ igelkott: cool new avatar!

dV

Well, now that we are THE BEST I just can't go walking around with an old stinky avatar. Noblesse oblige

Joemama · Dec 20, 2006

Things are looking well for the kings of the gypsies. After and looking at the save, I have a few comments:

Are we planning on waiting for universities in St. Pete to run additional specialists? My thought is that if we built a forge instead of the harbor, we could run an engineer as well. It would also give more happiness for a greater population.

Shouldn't Yaros be working the new cottage instead of the coastal tile?

I have no problem extracting a tech or 2 from Gandhi for 10 turns of peace, understanding it may delay our next war. Looks like Vicki has maces and longbows. Can we still take her on?

A whip or two on the home island looks fine to me. However, at some point having extra population working tiles (cottages) should probably take precident.

@ Da Vinci - Good luck and I don't want to see any Indians running around after your turn (Unless you are playing 10 turns not 15 and take peace for a tech).

@ All - Have a Merry Christmas! Maybe we will all get Warlords in our stockings for the next SGOTM!

da_Vinci · Dec 20, 2006

We can get Drama in 3 turns at 100% science, Music in 6 at that rate. But these are unsustainable rates. What is the diplomatic cost of having to declare on Gandhi a second time? Maybe just better to finish him now? I am thinking that I'd have to get both techs to make peace: one alone is not worth it.

Looks like R1 set us up for liberalism after education. Use the free tech for nationalism, research guilds, gundpowder, Mil trad, and voila! Cossacks! (Maybe trade for that music after all, even with Gandhi).

Thinking more of whipping in India, rather than Motherland. Maybe a few selctive ones in Russia if working mediocre tiles.

Diplomacy:

South of Yekat, the clash of titans will eventually occur. The borders of Rome, China, and Mother Russia will collide. Which one do we want as friend?

Mao still has better stats on most of the charts. But maybe Caesar is up and coming? We might need to keep our options open on this one.

Is it worthwhile to upgrade axes to maces? 179 a shot is pretty steep.

I'll post some screens for C63

I am thinking that maybe we consolidate the empire (courthouses, etc) after the India conquest, and wait for Cossacks to go get Vicki.

dV

Ronnie1 · Dec 20, 2006

Take Him OUT! :goodjob:

SGOTM 03 - Gypsy Kings

Gypsy Prince

Deity

Chieftain

Gypsy Prince

Pawn in the game of Civ

Pawn in the game of Civ

Deity

Gypsy Prince

Attachments

Chieftain

Deity

Pawn in the game of Civ

Gypsy Prince

Deity

Deity

Chieftain

Gypsy Prince

Chieftain

Chieftain

Gypsy Prince

Attachments

Deity

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