SGOTM 03 - Gypsy Kings

[Ronnie1]

@ dV and All,

Is it worthwhile to upgrade axes to maces? 179 a shot is pretty steep.

My basic rule on upgrading is the 10 point rule. If the units have reached 10 exp, I try to get them upgraded. Especially units with CR III promotions, so both the axes and swords can upgrade in my book. Grenadiers with CR III are fun to play with!!

I am thinking that maybe we consolidate the empire (courthouses, etc) after the India conquest, and wait for Cossacks to go get Vicki.

I think popping out a few courthouses couldn't hurt, recon Vicki and see what she she has in total troops, then figure what we'll need to take her out as well.

South of Yekat, the clash of titans will eventually occur. The borders of Rome, China, and Mother Russia will collide. Which one do we want as friend?

I have always thought that Mao was better late in the game. Maybe that's because I try not to let Julius make it to the late game.

 

[da_Vinci]

Ronnie1 votes for blood now! What do the other think? If Gandhi will give us both music and drama, that is 9 turns of resarch at 100% (which we can't sustain, so it is even more research turns saved), and most other AI are getting stingy about trading. And in 10 turns, he's toast anyway.

Might depend on whether declaring on him a second time is a second hit to our diplomatic relations. If it is, then yes, just get the job done now. If not, then maybe worth saving 10 or more turns of research.

I think it is key to sustain a good tech pace, given the two victory conditions. So consolidaton after expansion phase 1 makes sense to me. I would wait to go get Vicky until India is producing troops. She won't be the pushover that Gandhi was (hasn't she had feudalism for a long time?). Probably longbows everywhere.

I'm warming up my whipping arm. Looking to max commerce and gold, and reduce maintenance. So speed up harbors and courthouses. Actually, since the harbors are double hammers, maybe not whip those. Do the double hammers overflow? Won't go overboard, though.

dV

 

[Conquistador 63]

Great job, Ronnie1! And thanks again to da Vinci for sharing the screenies. This way I can follow our progress between the beach days and the beer nights.

Now seriously, by looking at the screenies, some weird thoughts regarding long term strategy came to my mind, and I wanted to share them with you.

1. There are 15 known civs. 3 still missing: America, Spain & Mongolia. 8 are hindu. If we rush/build a hindu monastery and then send 2/3 hindu monks to Mao’s largest cities, I think there is a fair probability of converting him to Hindu (maybe even by himself!). Then we would follow him, converting ourselves, maybe using also Pacifism for the 2x GP points. In this dream scenario, boosted relations with 9 civs – 6 of the 7 top scorers and having the shrine on top of it! - could lead us to a very fast diplo win.
2. I still have limited information, but is there much incentive now to go for Vic after Gandhi? I agree with Ronnie1 on finishing him ASAP, but maybe we would be better off consolidating empire – courthouses, forges, harbors and improving land – before our next aggressive war. Is there some other non-hindu civ nearby? Or with a nice prize, say the Pyramids? Just wondering.
3. On the tech front, I see we’re on our way to Education/Liberalism. If there are huts for the taking, I’d risk sending a galley/explorer to get Optics (available from trade?) or Astronomy from it. Either way, I think we would be well positioned to beeline for the UN. Printing Press, Sci Met, Physics, Electricity, Radio & Mass Media being our path. I know this path is away from the Cossacks, but…do we really need them for a fast diplo victory? If the strategy proposed in #1 succeeds, I think maybe not! Of course a small detour for Communism (requires Liberalism and Sci Met) to get a PA would also help.

Feel free to flame away, I know those thoughts may seem crazy…Maybe I’ve had too much sun in my head lately!

 

[Joemama]

I like how Conq. is thinking ahead. Along those lines, I can see a happy Hindu world forming up.

Keeping in the theme of off the wall diplo ideas, what if we spammed Mao with Hindu missionaries and Ales with JEWISH missionaries. Once Alex is a Jew, it would be easy for all of our Hindu bretheren to liberate the citizens from the heathan.

Something else to concider in a diplo victory is not only setting yourself up to win but setting your opponent up to lose. Ideally we want the second largest civ to be not part of our Hindu friends and definatly not Mao. Not sure how we can achieve this, but I think worth thinking about during our holiday slowdown.

 

[da_Vinci]

Regarding C63's ideas:

Only real reason to go after Vic at all is she is a target of convenience. Adjacent to where we are likely to build the FP anyway. So I agree that there is no rush for that (except if we want to do it, we do it before she gets redcoats?).

Are you thinking that we can get a front door diplo win (everyone loves us)? R1 had talked about back door (war to big size, and a few love us). If we need backdoor, then maybe the Cossacks are important

The question of tech to cossacks vs. tech to UN (or to the PA tech - Fascism -, or really, to the Defensive Pact tech -guess what, which is Military Tradition anyway, so I guess we tech to it after all - as a DP or a shared war seems to be a prerequisite to a PA). A decision that can wait until after my turnset, as after my 10 turns, at best we are 4 or 5 turns into the Liberalism research (meaning about 10-12 more to go). Over the Xmas break we can really think through the tech path options.

Like the idea of converting Mao. We could skip monasteries if we change to organized religion, but it is high upkeep and costs a turn of revolution. So which road to missionaries do we prefer?

The big fork in the road in my turnset is whether to extract music and drama from Gandhi, and kill him 10 turns later, or kill him now. Two votes for kill him now, but as yet no logic as to why this is better than killing him after we get two techs. Is it the dilpo cost of having to declare a second time? Because if that is not it, so what if he lives another 10 turns? He can't make enough troops to survive in 10 turns.

Trading options are getting thin as AI fears we are too advanced. Vicky will trade Drama, but not Feud, Music, Optics; Gandhi will trade Music and Drama; Caesar won't trade Drama, Feud, Music, Optics; Saladin won't trade Feud, Optics; Louis won't trade Drama Music Theol; Alex won't trade Feud; Mao won't trade Music Optics Engin. So Gandhi may be our last good trade chance (other than for gold) for a while.

So convince me why I shouldn't trade drama and music for waiting 10 turns for the kill! Mao is annoyed with Gandhi, Caesar pleased and Vicky friendly, so diplo impact of second declare maybe not so bad? Music gets us toward the Mil Trad, which I think is key for a fast defensive pact with Mao if we convert him to Hindu (or we can convert to Jud as a last resort). Need that long-standing DP to get the PA. No point in getting to UN before we have the votes, and DP to PA with Mao seems to be a great way to both get the votes, and speed the joint research to the UN. And we need to get the PA with Mao before someone else does !!! Nothing will threaten our win as much as other AI forming PA before we do !!!!!

dV

 

[Ronnie1]

@ ALL, We want to build the UN. We don't want to take a chance on a "potential" PA building it before us and then not forming the PA for some reason. I might consider not killing Gandhi for both techs, but not just 1 of them. We can build our infrastructure and keep up the tech pace in the long run. There is no other reason to keep Gandhi alive. He might call someone else into the war at the last minute (unlikely) but possible. Spreading Hindu will always be good for us because of the shrine, so that makes C63's idea a no lose even if we don't end up with the end result.

 

[Conquistador 63]

Wow, some nice and quick responses here. I am feeling confident on getting a better finish than our #13 in SGOTM2. Wait, there are only 11 teams running for the Vanilla awards this time! Well, I think you got the point.

@ Joe: you are absolutely right about choosing our opponent wisely in a diplo vote. We definitely would like to see a buddist civ being 2nd in pop to us (hello Izzie, where are you? ) But why picking on Alex? As far as I can see he is way behind in score, not sure about pop.

@ da Vinci:
. I think we don't need Fascism for a PA. Communism will also do fine. I agree that we might need MilTrad for a defensive pact, though. Maybe too optimistic to get it from trade? And in that case, would the DP/PA with Mao jeopardize our chance of getting votes from the other hindu friends? I admit I am totally in the dark in this field.
. I am also ok on giving Gandhi 10 more turns if he gives us 2 techs, which I doubt. 1 cheap tech is not worth the "we wanna join motherland" unhappiness, IMO.
. I also understand Vic is a natural target if only to keep our troops busy. But I read here she has maces/longbows. Is it worth the attrition?
. I'd rather wait for Mao to convert Hindu before us, we don't want to annoy him, do we? Then we do need a monastery.

Oh well, maybe I got too overconfident with a quite fast (for my standards, that is) front-door diplo win on GOTM13 - and I hope this statement isn't too much of a spoiler.

 

[da_Vinci]

@ Joe: you are absolutely right about choosing our opponent wisely in a diplo vote. We definitely would like to see a buddist civ being 2nd in pop to us (hello Izzie, where are you? ) But why picking on Alex? As far as I can see he is way behind in score, not sure about pop.

I have little clue about how diplo victories work. Seems like setting up the right worldwide diplomatic relations is a key.

@ da Vinci: I think we don't need Fascism for a PA. Communism will also do fine. I agree that we might need MilTrad for a defensive pact, though. Maybe too optimistic to get it from trade? And in that case, would the DP/PA with Mao jeopardize our chance of getting votes from the other hindu friends? I admit I am totally in the dark in this field.

I will have to check if both communism and fascism allow PA. Saw this am that Fascism does for sure.

In the famous dual test game with Scout214, I have had a DP with Vicky for several turns, but she still is not ready to go to PA. I was about 10 turns or so into a DP with Mansa when he decided to got PA with Frederick. They always say we have not shared a war or had a DP long enough. So I think we want to aggressively pursue control of our ablility to make DP (which means we tech to Mil Trad, not wait to get it in trade when the AI feel like it, which may be after they have already made DPs). Because some long number of turns of DP appears to be required to get to PA, unless a shared war.

For any who have never played a game with PA or a team game, I recommend doing a short test game of that. Once you are a team, AI will follow your orders (given in diplo dialogue), including declaring war, what to research, and even what city to attack. Two large civs, co-researching tech, is a huge advantage, and we have to have it first.

I am also ok on giving Gandhi 10 more turns if he gives us 2 techs, which I doubt. 1 cheap tech is not worth the "we wanna join motherland" unhappiness, IMO.

I think music is the one we need for Mil Trad, and six turns at 100% to get that if we research it. Drama we could get in 3, and that seems to be the one item AI is willing to trade for. Since 100% is not long term sustainable, getting music from Gandhi would save perhaps 10 turns of research, if we go for Mil Trad. Nationalism is the most expensive item avail now for a free tech, maybe something else is after education comes in.

Ultimately the question is, if we decide to pursue Mil Trad (I think we must), is it worth giving Gandhi 10 turns of life to save 10 turns of research? I don't think the Motherland whining is an issue that will cause trouble in the 15 turns it will take to kill him if we trade (I'll check this again). But if everyone really wants to kill him now, I'm more than happy to oblige

I think that getting Mil Trad is key for a couple of reasons: 1) allows us to initiate DP negotiations. 2) after a few other techs, we have Cossacks. Combat of 18 should hold off anything up to infantry, so researcing additional unit types is not necessary for a while after we get them. And they would be perfect for taking out Vicky if we are so inclined at that time.

I also understand Vic is a natural target if only to keep our troops busy. But I read here she has maces/longbows. Is it worth the attrition?

I have no intention of going after Vicky anytime soon, as I think we have a better diplomatic play to pursue

And yes, we would have to convert first to use Org Rel, so definitely the monastery route. Moscow, where the piddly 10% science bonus has the most impact?

dV

Addendum: Thinking more about it, the uncertain diplomatic consequences of having to re-declare on Gandhi may not be worth saving at most, 10 turns of research. If later we have not been able to trade for Music and need it for Mil Trad, I suspect we can get it in a handful of turns of research. Some political ill will, on the other hand, may have unpredictable repercussions. So, Gandhi, say your prayers!

dV

 

[Scout214]

I like the idea of making temporary peace IF we get both Drama and Music. Having deprived Gandhi of Copper and Horses, we needn't fear the quality of what he will build, only the quantity.

The ideas about Hinduism appeal to me, too. I'm far less conversant with getting to UN or Diplomatic victory or Space age techs, so my inclination is to follow the lead of those who understand it better.

Is it wise, given the difficulty in roping an AI into PA, to attempt to get other AI's to join in with us on early, lesser wars of conquest?

 

[da_Vinci]

Prince da_Vinci reporting on the state of the empire as of 965 AD.

In brief: Gandhi is dead. The stubborn fool would not make peace for two techs and all of his gold. In the interturn between 815 and 830 he moved an archer and a catapult to the pigs NW of Calcutta and captured two of our workers (used a galley for this). This created a potential theat to Calcutta, and a threat to pillage the pig pasture.

However, it left two archers and a spear defending Bangalore on the hill. Taking the city would eliminate the threat from Gandhi's counterattack.

The battle: Cat 1 with HA (CR 1) attacks, does no damage to the engaged archer, but does collateral damage, and is killed. Cat 2 with HA (CR 1) attacks, damages engaged archer, does collat damage, and is killed. Archers at 2.3, spear at 3.1).

Cat with axe and spear attacks (CR 2), and kills one archer !! Now defense is one archer, and one spear at 2.7. Axe attacks and kills archer. Spear is only defender, I have Spear and Horse Archer left in range to attack.

I lead with the spear, at about even odds, and our spear dies. However, Gandhi's spear is now 0.6, easy prey for our HA. Bangalore falls, and the troops on the pigs desert. By the way, I recaptured our workers before the city assault.

So, lost two cats and a spear to take out two archer and a spear on a hill city. I knew they would be tough, which is why Delhi was targeted before Bangalore. Could have lost less if waited to bring the swords up. But I wanted to prevent pillage of the pig pasture, get Bangalore up and running ASAP, and taking it would allow Madras to work a high food tile currently in India's limited territory. So the quick kill, although somewhat more costly, had its advantages.

After that, pretty mundane infrastructure and trading stuff. Focused on getting to Liberalism ASAP. We were running about -100 GPT at the start. Built no troops (except for an explorer that I thought I could get to the huts, but Mao asked us to stop trading with Hatty, and I did, losing OB. No good route to the huts, so went toward Isabella.).

Nine pop rushes: 3 harbors, 1 courthouse, 2 granaries, 1 lighthouse, 1 forge and 1 barracks. Was able to reduce GPT loss to about -85 most of my turn (-87 now). Ran 100% science the whole time due to cash trades for 460 gold. Still have 146 in the treasury. Got open borders with Monte.

We have learned education, and traded Civil Service and Paper for knowledge of Drama and Optics. Paper, currency and drama were traded for the cash. Liberalism is 8 turns away. We should grab nationalism, research music (4 turns) then get Mil trad. After we get Lib, can pause to revolt to other civics if we wish. What is Mao's favorite civic? Maybe that gets him friendly for the def pact.

We now know Khan and Isabella. Only the Americans remain elusive.

Moscow builds a university in 5 turns. Novgorod a university in 8 turns. Yaros is 4 turns away from that hindu monastery that we need. Three more courthouses and two more harbors are being built.

Screens on the way tomorrow (or if someone wants to post them sooner ... R1?). Save is on the progress page. Time to sleep.

dV

Upload log:

Spoiler :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 815 AD to 965 AD:

Turn 221, 815 AD: Used GS to lightbulb most of Education
Turn 221, 815 AD: Traded Literature to Fred for 30G and World Map
Turn 221, 815 AD: Traded Monarchy to Hatty for 60G and World Map
Turn 221, 815 AD: Traded World Map to Cyrus for World Map and 150G
Turn 221, 815 AD: Traded WM to HC for WM and 50G
Turn 221, 815 AD: Upgrade axe to mace Delhi
Turn 221, 815 AD: Poprush harbor in Yaros
Turn 221, 815 AD: Saladin adopts Vassalage!
Turn 221, 815 AD: You have circumnavigated the Globe! Your ships receive a +1 Movement bonus!

Turn 222, 830 AD: Gypsy Kings's Catapult (5.00) vs Gandhi's Archer (6.15)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Combat Odds: 20.6%
Turn 222, 830 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 222, 830 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 222, 830 AD: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 222, 830 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 222, 830 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gypsy Kings's Catapult is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gypsy Kings's Catapult is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gypsy Kings's Catapult is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gypsy Kings's Catapult is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gypsy Kings's Catapult is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gandhi's Archer has defeated Gypsy Kings's Catapult!
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gypsy Kings's Catapult (5.00) vs Gandhi's Archer (6.15)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Combat Odds: 20.6%
Turn 222, 830 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 222, 830 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 222, 830 AD: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 222, 830 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 222, 830 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gypsy Kings's Catapult is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gypsy Kings's Catapult is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gypsy Kings's Catapult is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gandhi's Archer is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gypsy Kings's Catapult is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gypsy Kings's Catapult is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gandhi's Archer has defeated Gypsy Kings's Catapult!
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gypsy Kings's Catapult (5.00) vs Gandhi's Archer (4.42)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Combat Odds: 63.8%
Turn 222, 830 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 222, 830 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 222, 830 AD: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 222, 830 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 222, 830 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gandhi's Archer is hit for 20 (62/100HP)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gypsy Kings's Catapult is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gandhi's Archer is hit for 20 (42/100HP)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gandhi's Archer is hit for 20 (22/100HP)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gypsy Kings's Catapult is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gypsy Kings's Catapult is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gandhi's Archer is hit for 20 (2/100HP)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gandhi's Archer is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gypsy Kings's Catapult has defeated Gandhi's Archer!
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gypsy Kings's Axeman (5.00) vs Gandhi's Archer (3.45)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Combat Odds: 85.8%
Turn 222, 830 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 222, 830 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 222, 830 AD: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 222, 830 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 222, 830 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gandhi's Archer is hit for 21 (43/100HP)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gypsy Kings's Axeman is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gypsy Kings's Axeman is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gandhi's Archer is hit for 21 (22/100HP)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gypsy Kings's Axeman is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gypsy Kings's Axeman is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gandhi's Archer is hit for 21 (1/100HP)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gandhi's Archer is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gypsy Kings's Axeman has defeated Gandhi's Archer!
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gypsy Kings's Spearman (4.00) vs Gandhi's Spearman (4.02)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Combat Odds: 63.2%
Turn 222, 830 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 222, 830 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gandhi's Spearman is hit for 17 (50/100HP)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gypsy Kings's Spearman is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gypsy Kings's Spearman is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gandhi's Spearman is hit for 17 (33/100HP)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gypsy Kings's Spearman is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gandhi's Spearman is hit for 17 (16/100HP)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gypsy Kings's Spearman is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gypsy Kings's Spearman is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gandhi's Spearman has defeated Gypsy Kings's Spearman!
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gypsy Kings's Horse Archer (6.60) vs Gandhi's Spearman (1.60)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 222, 830 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 222, 830 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 222, 830 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 222, 830 AD: (Combat: +100%)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gypsy Kings's Horse Archer is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gypsy Kings's Horse Archer is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gandhi's Spearman is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 222, 830 AD: Gypsy Kings's Horse Archer has defeated Gandhi's Spearman!
Turn 222, 830 AD: You have captured Bangalore!!!
Turn 222, 830 AD: The Indian Civilization has been destroyed!!!

Turn 225, 875 AD: You have discovered Drama!
Turn 225, 875 AD: Poprush lighthouse in Moscow

Turn 226, 890 AD: Poprush harbor St. Pete
Turn 226, 890 AD: The borders of Delhi have expanded!

Turn 227, 905 AD: Paper to Louis for 70 gold
Turn 227, 905 AD: Currency to Toku for 60 gold
Turn 227, 905 AD: Poprush granary in Bangalore
Turn 227, 905 AD: You have discovered Education!
Turn 227, 905 AD: Montezuma converts to Hinduism!

Turn 228, 920 AD: Drama to Capac for 70 gold
Turn 228, 920 AD: Drama to Monte for 60 gold
Turn 228, 920 AD: Poprush Barracks in Madras
Turn 228, 920 AD: Poprush courthouse in Delhi
Turn 228, 920 AD: Madras has grown to size 5
Turn 228, 920 AD: You have constructed a Barracks in Madras. Work has now begun on a Archer.
Turn 228, 920 AD: You have constructed a Granary in Bombay. Work has now begun on a Courthouse.
Turn 228, 920 AD: Mao Zedong adopts Vassalage!

Turn 229, 935 AD: You have discovered Optics!
Turn 229, 935 AD: Civ Service to Louis for Optics
Turn 229, 935 AD:
Turn 229, 935 AD: Open Borders with Monte
Turn 229, 935 AD: Poprush forge in Novgorod
Turn 229, 935 AD: Calcutta will grow to size 4 on the next turn

Turn 230, 950 AD: Drama to Alex for 40 gold
Turn 230, 950 AD: Saladin has 50 gold available for trade
Turn 230, 950 AD: Tokugawa has 3 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 230, 950 AD: Yaroslavl' will grow to size 7 on the next turn
Turn 230, 950 AD: Calcutta has grown to size 4
Turn 230, 950 AD: Isabella adopts Hereditary Rule!
Turn 230, 950 AD: Deal Canceled: Spices to Saladin for Fur
Turn 230, 950 AD: Archimedes has been born in Karakorum!
Turn 230, 950 AD: Ananda has been born in Beijing!

Turn 231, 965 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 44 ? for Calcutta.

Spoiler :

User comment: Upgrade axe to mace Delhi
User comment: Poprush harbor in Yaros
St. Petersburg grows: 8
Rostov grows: 9
Rostov finishes: Harbor
Yekaterinburg grows: 7
Worker loses to: Indian Catapult (5.00/5)

Turn 222 (830 AD)
Rostov begins: Forge
Catapult defeats (5.00/5): Indian Fast Worker
Catapult loses to: Indian Archer (3.00/3)
Catapult loses to: Indian Archer (2.46/3)
Catapult defeats (2.15/5): Indian Archer
Axeman defeats (1.40/5): Indian Archer
Spearman loses to: Indian Spearman (0.64/4)
Horse Archer defeats (3.84/6): Indian Spearman
Hinduism has spread: Bangalore (Indian Empire)
Hinduism has spread: Bangalore
Captured Bangalore (Gandhi)
Indian Empire eliminated
Moscow finishes: Harbor
Yaroslavl' finishes: Harbor
Calcutta finishes: Granary
Taoism has spread: Memphis (Egyptian Empire)

Turn 223 (845 AD)
Moscow begins: Lighthouse
Yaroslavl' begins: Explorer
Calcutta begins: Harbor
Calcutta grows: 4

Turn 224 (860 AD)
Moscow grows: 10
Calcutta finishes: Harbor
Contact made: Mongolian Empire

Turn 225 (875 AD)
Calcutta begins: Courthouse
Delhi begins: Courthouse
Tech learned: Drama
User comment: Poprush lighthouse in Moscow
St. Petersburg grows: 9
Yaroslavl' grows: 6
Yaroslavl' finishes: Explorer
Hinduism has spread: Corihuayrachina (Incan Empire)

Turn 226 (890 AD)
Yaroslavl' begins: Hindu Monastery
Bangalore begins: Granary
Explorer promoted: Woodsman II
Moscow begins: Lighthouse
User comment: Poprush harbor St. Pete
Bombay begins: Granary
Moscow finishes: Lighthouse
St. Petersburg finishes: Harbor
Rostov grows: 10
Bombay grows: 3
Delhi's borders expand
Hinduism has spread: Persepolis (Persian Empire)

Turn 227 (905 AD)
St. Petersburg begins: Theatre
St. Petersburg begins: Forge
User comment: Paper to Louis for 70 gold
User comment: Currency to Toku for 60 gold
User comment: Poprush granary in Bangalore
Tech learned: Education
Yekaterinburg finishes: Forge
Hinduism has spread: Elephantine (Incan Empire)

Turn 228 (920 AD)
Research begun: Liberalism
Yekaterinburg begins: Courthouse
Research begun: Gunpowder
Research begun: Liberalism
Research begun: Feudalism
Research begun: Guilds
Research begun: Banking
Research begun: Liberalism
Research begun: Printing Press
Research begun: Liberalism
Moscow begins: University
User comment: Drama to Capac for 70 gold
User comment: Drama to Monte for 60 gold
User comment: Poprush Barracks in Madras
User comment: Poprush courthouse in Delhi
St. Petersburg grows: 9
Madras grows: 5
Madras finishes: Barracks
Bombay finishes: Granary
Delhi finishes: Courthouse
Bangalore finishes: Granary

Turn 229 (935 AD)
Delhi begins: Harbor
Bangalore begins: Harbor
Tech learned: Optics
User comment: Civ Service to Louis for Optics
User comment:
User comment: Open Borders with Monte
User comment: Poprush forge in Novgorod

Turn 230 (950 AD)
Contact made: Spanish Empire
User comment: Drama to Alex for 40 gold
Novgorod finishes: Forge
Madras finishes: Archer
Calcutta grows: 4

Turn 231 (965 AD)
Novgorod begins: University
Madras begins: Harbor
Archer promoted: City Garrison I

P.S. Here come the screens:

 

[da_Vinci]

Hi all;

The famous pair game with Scout214 has progressed to the point where I got my PA with Vicky. She and I have the 2nd and 1st scores individually. Two other PA teams are on the map, the pair in second is friendly with us. As are a couple of other solo AI. AND YET THAT IS NOT ENOUGH TO WIN THE DIPLO VOTE!! EVEN WITH SCOUT214 VOTING FOR ME!!

And, Roosevelt is spamming spaceship parts. Bottom line is that with 17 AI, it is very hard to be friendly with enough to garner the needed votes (is it 60% of votes needed?). Anyone ever gotten a diplo with 15+ other nations alive? Might be a very different animal !!

I have thrown seven techs, two resources, and 500 GPT at one pleased AI, and could not budge him to Friendly !!!! The "cranky AI" (what aggressive setting seems to really mean) may make getting friends difficult.

So ... we cannot count on a peaceful front door diplo. IMO. Great if we can get it, but don't bet the house. We cannot be friends with everyone, so we may need to be ready to keep our friends happy, and kill off all the others.

So to me, the plan is get Mao to be Hindu, and everyone else for that matter. Also, be a military power, conquer some more eventually (Vicky at some point, but not now as she has 3-6 longbows in most cities).

To that end, Mil trad is key. Enables DP, gets us Cossacks after Gunpowder. Also, communism as well as fascism allows PA. I think we want to get to assembly line (which allows factories, right?) quickly, so if diplo is just not working out, we have the industrial base to go to space fast. A great engineer to rush the UN would be great if we can get one.

So lets get Nationalism for the Liberal free tech (most expensive avail I think), maybe wait to trade for music, research gunpowder, then head down the tech tree toward communism (state propery is Mao's favorite civic, right?). When we get music, research Mil Trad.

FP eventually in either Bombay or Delhi. Oxford U in Moscow when we can. Might put a second monastery in Moscow to really spread Hindu.

dV

 

[da_Vinci]

Greetings to all the Gypsy Kings !

Thought I would take the opportunity to wish you all a Merry Christmas, and a Happy New Year!

(Or whatever religious or secular holiday you celebrate this time of the year)

Also wanted to say how much I have enjoyed discussing and playing with you guys!


So best wishes to you and yours !

dV

 

[Conquistador 63]

Technically this is supposed to be a "Got the save" post , but in fact what I really wanted is to also say to all teammates "Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!"

p.s. I might as well play my turnsets in the next couple of days, if upon opening the save no big questions arise. Else, I can take the break that was suggested earlier.

 

[da_Vinci]

I might as well play my turnsets in the next couple of days, if upon opening the save no big questions arise. Else, I can take the break that was suggested earlier.

Only question is what free tech to get with Liberalism in 8 turns. I like Nationalism, as it is the most expensive one available (I think), and we need it for several reasons. Or will astronomy be available, now that we have optics? I could see going for that, as we might as well get the most flasks out of the bonus. The observatories would help us accelerate research.

Only other comment, which probably goes without saying, is to avoid getting any negatives with Mao as we trade. Have all green with him so far. I think Hatty is his worst enemy at the moment, as he asked me to stop trading with her (and I did). I think a monastery in Moscow after the university would allow two cities to make missonaries to convert Mao.

After we get liberalism and we can relax research a bit, we should probably make some troops to deter any AI agression (I made none, busy with other items to control expenses). Go get 'em, C_63!

dV

 

[Conquistador 63]

I have played my session.

The upload log is here.

Spoiler :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 965 AD to 1106 AD:

Turn 231, 965 AD: You have discovered Feudalism!
Turn 231, 965 AD: 965 AD trade WM to Saladin for 50g
Turn 231, 965 AD: 965AD traded philo, wm + 100g for Feudal to Vic
Turn 231, 965 AD: Traded WM for 50g to Saladin, also rice for furs
Turn 231, 965 AD: traded wm, 100g, philo to Vic for Feudalism
Turn 231, 965 AD: Werner Heisenberg has been born in London!

Turn 232, 980 AD: Julius Caesar adopts Vassalage!
Turn 232, 980 AD: Saladin adopts Organized Religion!
Turn 232, 980 AD: Saladin converts to Christianity!

Turn 233, 995 AD: You have constructed a Harbor in Delhi. Work has now begun on a Forge.
Turn 233, 995 AD: Cyrus adopts Vassalage!
Turn 233, 995 AD: Heron has been born in Neapolis!

Turn 234, 1010 AD: Julius Caesar has completed The Hagia Sophia!
Turn 234, 1010 AD: Louis XIV adopts Bureaucracy!
Turn 234, 1010 AD: Montezuma has declared war on Frederick!

Turn 235, 1025 AD: You have constructed a University in Novgorod. Work has now begun on a Courthouse.
Turn 235, 1025 AD: Frederick adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 237, 1055 AD: Enrico Fermi has been born in Berlin!
Turn 237, 1055 AD: Kublai Khan has completed Notre Dame!

Turn 238, 1070 AD: Mao Zedong has 120 gold available for trade
Turn 238, 1070 AD: Gypsy Kings is the first to discover Liberalism!
Turn 238, 1070 AD: You have discovered Liberalism!
Turn 238, 1070 AD: St. Petersburg has become unhappy
Turn 238, 1070 AD: Calcutta will grow to size 6 on the next turn

Turn 239, 1085 AD: You have discovered Astronomy!
Turn 239, 1085 AD: Calcutta has grown to size 6
Turn 239, 1085 AD: The borders of Bangalore have expanded!
Turn 239, 1085 AD: Tokugawa has declared war on Isabella!
Turn 239, 1085 AD: Huayna Capac adopts Vassalage!
Turn 239, 1085 AD: Alexander adopts Vassalage!

Turn 240, 1100 AD: paper to Mao as requested
Turn 240, 1100 AD: refused to join Louis in was vs Isabella
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 44 ? for Delhi.
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Isabella has 4 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 240, 1100 AD: St. Petersburg will grow to size 9 on the next turn
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Madras will grow to size 7 on the next turn
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Delhi will grow to size 6 on the next turn
Turn 240, 1100 AD: New Tech(s) to trade: Victoria, Louis XIV

Turn 241, 1106 AD: You have discovered Music!

The autolog is here.

Spoiler :

Madras begins: Courthouse
User comment: Traded WM for 50g to Saladin, also rice for furs
User comment: traded wm, 100g, philo to Vic for Feudalism
Yaroslavl' grows: 7

Turn 232 (980 AD)
St. Petersburg grows: 10
Rostov grows: 11

Turn 233 (995 AD)
Delhi begins: Forge
Madras grows: 6
Delhi finishes: Harbor

Turn 234 (1010 AD)
Yaroslavl' finishes: Hindu Monastery
Calcutta grows: 5
Delhi grows: 5

Turn 235 (1025 AD)
Yaroslavl' begins: Hindu Missionary
Novgorod begins: Courthouse
St. Petersburg grows: 11
Novgorod finishes: University

Turn 236 (1040 AD)
Moscow grows: 10
Moscow finishes: University

Turn 237 (1055 AD)
Moscow begins: Hindu Monastery
Yekaterinburg finishes: Courthouse

Turn 238 (1070 AD)
Yekaterinburg begins: Caravel
Tech learned: Liberalism
St. Petersburg grows: 12
Rostov grows: 12
Taoism has spread: Atlanta (American Empire)

Turn 239 (1085 AD)
Tech learned: Astronomy
Research begun: Guilds
Research begun: Guilds
Research begun: Nationalism
St. Petersburg finishes: Forge
Calcutta grows: 6
Bangalore's borders expand

Turn 240 (1100 AD)
St. Petersburg begins: University
User comment: paper to Mao as requested
User comment: refused to join Louis in war vs Isabella
Moscow finishes: Hindu Monastery

Turn 241 (1106 AD)
Moscow begins: Hindu Missionary
Tech learned: Music

Highlights: Ran 100% science most of the time. Got to Liberalism first, took Astronomy. Researching Nationalism as da Vinci suggested, due in 10 turns. I was able to get Feudalism and Music from trade. America was found but not contacted yet. Relation with Mao is +10. I almost haven't poprushed. I let cities recover from last turnset whipping.

Bad news from last turn: Caesar requested us to convert to Hindu! And while I'd love to accept, I didn't because I was afraid to annoy Mao. Now JC is cautious to us. Grrr... If only we had already sent missionaries to Mao...

 

[da_Vinci]

Bad news from last turn: Caesar requested us to convert to Hindu! And while I'd love to accept, I didn't because I was afraid to annoy Mao. Now JC is cautious to us. Grrr... If only we had already sent missionaries to Mao...

A tough dilemma. I have not seen the save yet, but I suspect that when we eventually convert to Hindu (after Mao we hope), Caesar will be happier. I'll have to see what kind of negative we got for the conversion denial (some of this is still a bit new to me). Was Caesar better than cautious before that? I recall he was friendly with Gandhi, and did not like our war.

If we had converted, Mao would have heathen religion negatives with us ... would that make it harder to get him to be Hindu later? Or would those have eventually resolved themselves after he converted?

Keeping Mao happy was probably the safest play.

A wrinkle to the defensive pact story ... if we have a DP with Mao, and we delare war, it voids the DP. So if we are thinking of making war before we conclude the PA with Mao, (Vicky?) we need to work out its timing with the timing of DP. Or does Vicky serve us better as a trading partner than as a conquest?

Maybe we should make a DP with Mao, tech like crazy to get to communism, conclude a PA with Mao, and only then fight any more wars. Or, we could tech to cossacks fast, conquer Vicky, and then chase the DP and PA with Mao. This seems like the major fork in the road at this time. And worth getting a consensus on before we proceed.

dV

 

[Conquistador 63]

Was Caesar better than cautious before that? I recall he was friendly with Gandhi, and did not like our war.

If we had converted, Mao would have heathen religion negatives with us ... would that make it harder to get him to be Hindu later? Or would those have eventually resolved themselves after he converted?

Keeping Mao happy was probably the safest play.

Caesar was pleased. And I think Mao would still convert after having 2/3 largest cities as hindu. Nevermind, the -1 to Caesar can be countered when we convert. I am just slightly upset as there is a higher % he could DoW on us being "cautious".

A wrinkle to the defensive pact story ... if we have a DP with Mao, and we delare war, it voids the DP. So if we are thinking of making war before we conclude the PA with Mao, (Vicky?) we need to work out its timing with the timing of DP. Or does Vicky serve us better as a trading partner than as a conquest?

Maybe we should make a DP with Mao, tech like crazy to get to communism, conclude a PA with Mao, and only then fight any more wars. Or, we could tech to cossacks fast, conquer Vicky, and then chase the DP and PA with Mao. This seems like the major fork in the road at this time. And worth getting a consensus on before we proceed.

dV

I have done a few searching for "permanent alliance" in the strategy forum, with some useful info here and also a little research about Mao's personality traits in an excel spreadsheet (attached) I also downloaded from these forums a while ago.

In fact I think we can get a PA with Mao eventually, even without a previous DP, provided that:
1. We share a war with him against a common foe. We need to check who he dislikes more. I'll look on the "glance" page of the improved diplomatic advisor when I can.
2. We use his favorite civic - state property. This is his main trait - as strong as religion to Isabella. This will come in handy, as we need Communism to get a PA.
3. Neither one of us is leader in power score! Or else we might get a red message like "You're too Powerful" or "We're doing fine on our own" from him when requesting a PA! This came as shocking news for me, and we need to keep an eye on it.

Another dilemma is to continue research towards cossacks (Nationalism, MilTrad - do we also need Gunpowder for building them?) or move to SciMeth, Communism? Maybe teching to MilTrad will skyrocket our power score and hamper our ability to get the PA. I think this should also be discussed before continuing.

 

[Joemama]

I have the save and have taken a look around. It looks like I have a standard vanilla turn set up for me, but wanted to think a little more long term.

My first priority will be to get Mao to convert to Hindu. After that, I will convert as well. From there we need a target and I think it is Egypt. We could bribe several other Hindu nations into the war against the Taoist Hatty. Second, her cities are close to our capital to limit maintenance and logistical problems. Third, I could see us moving up the continent with our Cossacks taking out Mansa and eventually Saladin.

My thought is that the quickest way to diplomatic victory will be to destroy anyone we know won't vote for us with an "Alliance of the Willing" to gain mutual military struggle diplomatic points. People like Hatty and Mansa Musa just represent votes we will not get. From there, we can gift Kubli as many of our newly conquered cities to make him #2 and our diplomatic opposition.

 

[Ronnie1]

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all!! I'm back from the holidays and I'm looking forward to checking out the progress we've made. Since I haven't looked at the save yet, I just wanted to wish everyone well for the upcoming year! It looks like Joemama has the save and is ready to go, let's start figuring out the best approach to the next 50 turns or so. That should get us 3-4 more techs, are we going to beeline for Mass Media, or are we going to go for a more balanced tech approach?

 

[Conquistador 63]

Joemama's expansion plans look nice. Do they imply on dismissing the PA plans? If not, maybe better go for cossacks/conquest just after getting it - see my post above.