SGOTM 03 - Team One

[mdy]

I agree that we do not need a large army in the near future, though we could do with one or two more units as a deterrence. If someone declared war on us now we would be dead and our power graph is dangerously low.

I agree we need at least two more workers in the near furure, and they would be best built in St Petersburg.

 

[hamfist]

Hi All,

Just checking in. This house move is kind of insane. I expect to be free and clear next week and be able to play at that time.

Good work on getting the pyramids and an early academy pop. Are we aiming for a Great Engineer for the Great Library? Would Metal Casting be a good route to up the probability of a Great Engineer (via forge)? Could also give us Colossus. Very useful wonder with all this coast.

It's going to be tough to prevent more incursions on our island. Settlers seem like a very high priority atm.

 

[mdy]

Getting the Great Library in Moscow with a Great Engineer sounds like a good plan to me.

We will need at least 2 more cities in order to control our own island, which will need to be founded in the relativly near future. This will still leave us with room for one or two more small cities.

As Hamfist can`t play until next week I could play later this evening if that is alright with everyone?

 

[amh52]

We should definitely push for Great Engineers in StPete. We will need a couple later to build the UN (I assume we will build it!). But should we already keep them or can we afford to burn some on Wonders? For the Great Library I would probably say it is ok, for Colossus probably not (although Colossus would still be a nice Wonder to have).

I agree that we don't need a big military right now. But we should start thinking about it. For instance should we still try to attack someone with swords or should we wait for Macemen? Alternatively we could continue to push science and develop our position while beelining to Military Tradition for Cossacks (assuming we have horses). I like to use Macemen on archipelago maps so that's probably what I would use but I don't know if it is the best here.

Pretty soon we will also start getting requests for help, tributes.. Since it is diplomacy I would suggest we agree at this point until we can figure out who is our friend and who is our enemy.

 

[hamfist]

It seems we still haven't really decided on a victory condition. I'm a fan of the Space race, and the Russian Research Institute UB is an amazing thing in a specialist economy as it give +2 Free Scientists. Getting to Computers quickly is the key.

Since we have the Pyramids, this clearly indicates a specialist economy. We have a strong production city in St P, so all other cities would need to be food to make best use of Representation. Getting Code of Laws quickly will be important for maximum Scientists. We are Philosphical so lots of Great Scientists will be around. Philosophical is our main strength and we should play to it. We could go with Pacifism once we get Philosphy and GS's would appear every 20 turns or so. This makes me think that those cottages in Moscow might not be right.

Bureacracy is of limited use in a Food based economy for the commerce bonus, so moving the capital to St P to get the hammer bonus might be a good idea in the future.

Minimal defense. max research, and a small but tight and efficient empire could get us a fairly early ship as long as we have enough cities to get the appropriate National Wonders.

As for diplomatic relations, I think a lot is going to depend on Alex and JC. If they end up with different religions then our region will be filled with war and demands for us to go to war. I Generally prefer JC as a long term ally.

Short term, I'd be happiest to see the island filled with Russian Cities and then build up some defense. No barb problems as any galleys will appear on someone elses coast. Terrain is the most scarce resource on this map, as it is very crowded. If we can plonk down enough cities to enable the national wonders (Oxford/Globe/Wall Street/Ironworks), we can do this. Gold won't be a problem in a specialist economy, as the specialists do the researching.

Also, Warlords has a subtle change in that building research, wealth, or culture, uses 100% of hammers instead of 50% for vanilla CIV. St Petes can pound out some good gold if we need it.

 

[amh52]

I really like Hamfist suggestion. It would make for a different game (at least for me) and I think it would work well for our position. We will need a religion though to run Pacifism which might trigger some wars and it might not be that easy to fully concentrate on the economy.

On the other hand I am not sure if a space ship victory can beat a diplomatic one (assuming we want to play for victory!). Also I would still LOVE to play for a diplomatic(military) victory since it is part of the reason I signed up for this game. But it is very tempting to try something different and if you all agree I would be willing to go along.

 

[mdy]

I see no way that a specialist economy can possibly compete with a cottage based economy in the long run, especially if you are going for a space race victory. Excluding food bonuses you need 3 citizens for every specialist pre biology, so even with representation the cottage based economy will be better once the cottages are producing more than 2 gold/turn. Food resources will improve this a bit, but not enough to outperform cottages. We would also need to run caste system all the time which rules out other useful civics such as slavery. If we start running maximum scientists it would also mean we could not get any GE in St Pete for The Great Library/UN.

If luck is with us Hinduism will spread to all our immediate neighbours so having a religion is not a problem, other things being equal if we are forced to choose between allies I agree with Hamfist that JC would be prefrable to Alexander.

I see no way a space race can beat a diplomatic victory- there is just to much additional research to do.

We probably won`t be able to tell who we are going to attack, and with what units until the diplomatic situation has become clearer so I agree with amh52 that we should agree with tribute/gift requests for now. Running a minimal defense as per Hamfist would only be possible if we are going to avoid attacking anyone, it would also risk someone attacking us, espacially with Alexander as a neighbour.

 

[mboza]

I agree (a little sadly) that I cannot see space race being competitive with diplomatic victories. The next question is then how many of the votes we need to conquer, and how many we can bribe. It should be relatively straight forward just to pick on whoever is our weakest neighbour, and then it becomes a matter of speed of conquest, and the time to the UN.

 

[TDK]

Seems we agree on what is to happen in the immediate future so I guess mdy can go ahead with his turnset.

I don't think space race is a plausible alternative to diplomatic victory, I would only go down that path if diplomatic victory somehow eludes us.

As to the specialist vs. cottage economy I think a mix is in order. I was thinking we could use great persons for most of the very expensive techs on the path to Mass Media but we would still need to fill in the blanks by "manual" research. This approach requires quite a lot of planning to open up the right techs at the right moment and so on. I will try to look at the tech tree tonight and see if there are any obvious gp shortcuts etc..

I support a great library in Moscow.

TDK

 

[hamfist]

The victory condition only determines how far we need to research and is independent of the type of economy we use to get there. I can definitely agree with going for Diplomatic over Space Race if that is the team opinion. Conquest based seems to be the right way.

I still believe that our next great person can and should be an Engineer for the GL. If we go for conquest driven diplo, we will be sure to have a city with enough hammers to pound out the UN quickly, so I'm not sure we need two Engineers.

Cottage economies work great if you plan to have a bunch of very big cities And lots of grassland. We don't have a lot of grassland due to all of the ocean (moscow has space for 7 cottages, Novgorod 6). Cottages take time to mature, whereas specialists work now and produce as much research as a Town before printing press. Cottage economies cause research crashes whenever you expand (which I assume we will do for a backdoor diplo victory), specialist economies only need enough commerce to pay for the city, the specialists do the rest as new city upkeep is paid for by pillaging the other guys cottages and replacing them with farms.... Cottage economies play very well to financial, which we are not. We are philosophical, so a specialist economy plays to our traits (more great people).
The best use of great scientists in a specialist economy is an academy and then settling the remaining scientists in one city. That city gets GL, all science buildings, Oxford, and a research facility if we get as far as computers. The settled scientists produce more great people points (positive feedback loop) and produce 9 beakers each with no food consumption.
The specialist economy often loses steam in between Liberalism and Biology, this is due to lightbulbing too many techs instead of settling the scientist and having a massive science/great person generator. GSs are often used for Astronomy or Physics, but we can probably do whatever conquesting we require with galleys due to the Archipelago map so lightbulbing Astronomy is probably not key.

If we were financial, not philosophical, and without the pyramids, I would definitely agree with cottage vs specialist. However, we are not financial and we are philosophical and we have the Pyramids. This screams specialist economy to me. We will have wasted the hammers that could have been used for settlers and galleys to produce the Pyramids if we don't run specialists.

I brought all of this economy stuff up now as the choice of cottages on the Floodplains in Moscow seem wrong to me. 1 farmed FP means 1 extra specialist.

However, if the consensus is cottages now, then we need to be thinking about our GP Farm to leverage our Philosophical trait.

 

[mdy]

O.K. I will play later this evening.

If we have one GP farm (Moscow) we won`t get any extra GP`s from other cities as they will not generate enough GP points to catch up. For our next GP`s I would favour a GE for the Great Library, and possibly another GE after that for the UN, followed by scientists.

Hamfist said that sttled scientists produced GP points, can anyone confirm this? I was under the impression that they didn`t.

I agree with TDK that a mix of cottages/specialists would be best.

 

[TDK]

As I see it, we ideallly need just 17 techs to Mass Media. They are:
Metal Casting
Machinery
Mathematics
Currency
Calender
Code of Laws
Civil Service
Paper
Compass
Optics
Atronomy
Printing Press
Scientific Method
Physics
Electricity
Radio
Mass Media

It is not the fastest way to Mass Media, but the other path would have us research useless techs like Theology and we would miss out on critical techs like Code of Laws, Civil Service and Currency.

-This is the first part of the list of the Great Scientist tech preference, techs without parantheses are the ones we need:

Writing (We have it)
Mathematics (We research it, no problem)
Scientific Method
Physics (This one is nice, it will give us a free Great Scientist)
(Education) (We should research this regardless; for universities and it will lead us to Liberalism and a free even more expensive tech)
Printing Press
(Fiber Optics) (No problem, won't even be near)
(Computers) (No problem, won't even be near)
The Wheel (We have it)
(Philosophy) (Won't open unless we research Meditation)
(Chemistry) (No problem, we won't research guilds)
(Fission) (No problem)
(Fusion) (No problem)
Optics (We could use a scientist for this one but we would lose some beakers)
Paper (We could use a scientist for this one but we would lose some beakers)
Astronomy
Biology (Not a problem, we won't research Chemistry)
Electricity

In conclusion, we have a clear path towards Electricity and scientists would really help us a lot. Scientists also yield more beakers than other great persons.

TDK

[edit:] super specialists won't give us any gp points.

 

[mdy]

Turn 123, 655 BC: You have discovered Alphabet!

Turn 125, 625 BC: You have discovered Animal Husbandry!
Turn 125, 625 BC: You have discovered Agriculture!

Turn 127, 595 BC: Hatshepsut converts to Buddhism!

Turn 132, 520 BC: You have discovered Mathematics!
Turn 132, 520 BC: The Temple of Artemis has been built in a far away land!

Turn 133, 505 BC: The borders of St. Petersburg have expanded!
Turn 133, 505 BC: The borders of Novgorod have expanded!

Turn 135, 475 BC: Julius Caesar converts to Hinduism!

Turn 137, 445 BC: Rostov has been founded

I traded Iron working to Gandi for agriculture and animal husbandry. Once we met Victoria we traded for mathematics. Both Rome and England are Hindu but Egypt is now Buddist.

We have found horses near Rostov, which was settled NE of the red circle to get the fish.

The AI seems to be expanding to islands off there original land mass so I think that another settler should be a priority.

 

[TDK]

Good play.

Should we whip Moscow one last time for the settler and then let it grow to max? I think Pete should build a Forge as soon as possible, moscow too after the settler.

Should we research Currency or Literature?

TDK

 

[mboza]

Got the save, I will play tomorrow night.

Looks like Moscow can be whipped in 5 turns. Got to be far more efficient to whip in terms of food, but each cottage generates 7 bulbs/turn. It has a workboat in the queue, do we just abandon that and start a forge? I would keep the cottages for the time being, as I think the happiness limit is a bigger problem than the food, and there are better things for workers to do.

Should I settle the clams/rice/gems spot where the warrior is, or is there a better plan?

The worker in StP will finish next turn if I work the glh mines, at a small commerce penalty. Then I will start a forge.

No changes with Rostov or Novgorod, and the workers will road and mine gems etc.

Do we chop/whip the GL in Moscow, and thus research Lit next? Would need to trade maths or alphabet for poly+archery, any suggestions as to who to approach first? (Alex, Gandi, Mao and Caesar offer both for Alphabet, Gandi will give us poly for maths, and Caesar archery for maths)

525 hammers for GL, 375 for national epic, and no sign of marble, which would save a lot of whipping

 

[amh52]

Good job on the trades and on settling Rostov. It looks like it is going to be a second production city.

I don't think we need the extra mine being built in StPete right now. Maybe we should move the worker as well as the new one being built towards Moscow to chop a couple forest and build some farms. I would also rather let the city work on the wb and switch to settler once we are ready to whip or once the chops come in.

If we want to build the GL we need Lit. But the GE is still some ways away. So maybe we can squeeze in another tech. Currency as it would lead to CoL but there is a good chance that we can trade for it soon. If we could trade for Priesthood I would suggest CoL next. Otherwise I would suggest to jump directly to Machinery.

Looks like Egypt might be our first target. Let's hope Hinduism spreads to us soon. We should also watch Alex. I do not trust him. He has Swordsmen and currently 3 Galleys in Argos.

 

[amh52]

I am not sure we should whip/chop the GL in Moscow. It needs a lot of hammers and then we might miss it. If we want to do it, I would still use a GE. Maybe we can whip the forge in StPete if we want to accelerate the generation of the GE. On the other hand we should maybe try to keep the forests around Moscow for the National Epic later.

We can abandon the wb in Moscow and start the forge. I don't mind although we will need a wb for the fish in Rostov eventually.

The clams/rice/gems spot is good for the next city.

I vote to trade math to JC and Gandhi and keep alphabet for now.

 

[hamfist]

Nice set. I´m away from a machine with Warlords, so I can't check the save. Alex is a backstabber, frontstabber and sidestabber. I'd suggest a couple of axes for D but more settlers are key right now. Perhaps 2 more settlers then revolt to Police state and whip an army?

I stand corrected on the super specialists .

I Like the tech path, but see that it is actually 19 (Edu and Liberalism). If we feel comfortable with out tech position later, Physics can be got with liberalism. Otherwise Astronomy?

Also noted that the tech path leaves out Nationalism/Military tradition and our UU. Are we likely to need it?

I can play on Sunday if it works?

 

[mdy]

I have just been checking the diplomacy screens, and when you hold the mouse over the would you declare war request for Greece and China you get the meesage "we have other things on our hands right now". This suggests they are planning to attack someone soon. We are bottom in power and Greece is massing galleys in Argos. This suggests they are planning to attack us, so I think we need to build up our army and navy asap.

After the worker is built in St Pete I would whip a barracks and then pump out combat 1 axeman. A forge would be useful, but I don`t think we could risk building it until after we have built an army.

We will also need a navy to protect our fishing boats, so I would suggest whipping triemes in Moscow until we have enough to protect each food resource, and perhaps one or two extra for opportunity attacks on galleys.

Once Rostov is built up it can take over the unit roduction role, allowing us to build a forge in St Pete.

I don`t think it is practical to build/chop both the Great Library and National Epic in Mosow. I would build the GL with a GE, and save all the forests for chopping the National Epic.

If we build the GL with a GE we don`t need Literature in the immediate future, and currency can probably be traded for soon, so I would research Machinery next? Do we have any need for archery/polytheism now? If not there is no need to trade with them yet with the AI. We should avoid trading for calender until our monument has popped the borders in our next city.

The current location of the warrior is my preferred location for the fifth city.

 

[TDK]

We also have the opportunity to use the GE for Machinery and in the meanwhile research Currency, Code of Laws and Civil Sevice. We would get maces sooner that way. I guess it depends on whether we think we can get the vote out before the UN, or get the UN before the vote. Just a random thought.

TDK