SGOTM 03 - Team One

[mboza]

I agree we should whip the settler but I would prefer to let Moscow grow to 4 and whip it for 2 pop. Another option is to build the granary first and then the settler. I'm not sure if it would be much slower but Mboza can figure that one out.

If we built a warrior by working 1 forest before the settler we could whip for 2 pop and still build the settler at roughly the same time.

Good point. I was thinking it would take forever to grow, and we wouild lose stored hammers when we switch, but the reason the settler is so fast is because we have so much food.

5 overflow, + 7f + 1h/turn = 19 turns without whipping.
13 turns with 1 whip,
7 turns with 2 whip and that does not even include the benefits of working a fourth square.
7f is 6 turns to grow, which is 6 hammers towards something else, .

Need to add a turn to the whipped totals because of the revolt to slavery.

Without running the numbers, I thought building the granary first would be a mistake because you then need to build something else to get the pop back to a whippable level. So you whip the granary, grow quickly, then start the settler. You will reduce the time to granary plus settler, but increase the time to the settler.

I agree that either stonehenge or the pyramids would be nice, but I have no idea when to expect the AI to get them, and if we still have a chance with our stone.

So at the moment I am thinking warrior->settler->granary. Not sure whether to time the warrior to finish with the 4th pop (think it will cost 2 turns), or to just stick a couple of hammers in the warrior and rush the settler. Think I will go for the quickest settler.

And the choice of writing, or myst->masonry->writing is a toss up.

It takes me longer to write these posts than it will to play the turnset.

 

[mboza]

turn 0 2740 BC: switch to warrior, Working a forest is 6 turns to grow, 9 turns to build, so leave working the fp
IBT Mao adopts slavery
turn 1 - 2710 BC: nothing
IBT alex adopts slavery
turn 2 - 2680
turn 3 - 2650
4 - 2620
5 - 2590 Moscow grows, start settler
6 - 2560
7 - 2530 hamlet finished
8 - 2500 Mao 5th most advanced civ, alex and us not listed
9 - 2470
10 - 2440
11 - 2410
12 - 2380 BC develop BW, revolt. No bronze in sight.

What to research?

 

[TDK]

I would like us to explore the southwestern tip of our island as that is the logical place for our next settler. I do think we might as well delay sailing and explore with a workboat.

We need to decide if we are going to go for the Pyramids or Stonehenge. Stonehenge would need both Mysticism to build it and Masonry to activate the stone bonus. I think that is too high a price to pay for a wonder we don't really need. Also, we would get prophet points that are not good if we have opened Masonry.
We could try for Pyramids. We will only need Masonry to start the Pyramids and if the AI beats us to it we will still have made a lot of money because of the stone bonus. (Mboza, can you figure out when we could have the Pyramids if we skip the work boat(and let Moscow build it) with chops and full worker support. Sorry to ask this, but I don't have acces to the game right now.)

So, I would recommend Masonry and then Writing or the other way around.

TDK

 

[amh52]

mboza, if you whip the settler in Moscow, do you have enough overflow to finish the warrior? If not, is it worth delaying the whip by a turn or 2 so we can finish the warrior the turn after the settler? After that I would still build the granary and whip it as soon as the 15 turns unhappiness is gone. Remember we have double production speed on granary. If we do it right, maybe we'll also have enough overflow to build a wb.

My preference would be to continue with writing and library in Moscow as originally discussed and scrap the wonder plan in stone city. Without bronze I think we would take too much risks if we wanted to do both. Instead I would use stone city to build some basic defense and whatever we need to get a bronze city going. The alternative would be to build the wonder and build those things in Moscow instead of the library but it doesn't seem as efficient to me.

 

[mboza]

Fastest route to the pyramids:

Masonry is 178 beakers away. We are in anarchy at the moment, so this is less precise than it should be.
Moscow produces 15 commerce/turn, +1, + 20% for having a prerequisite tech, is a total of 19/turn. We should get it in 9 turns, accounting for the new cottage and 3 overflow.

St Petersberg will produce 5h/turn, working a plains hill. Stone doubles that to 10, so 75 turns for the pyramids. Each forest is 30h x2, or 6 turns production, and there are 6 forests that lie within the fat cross. Chopping all 6 (42 turns, 6x(6+1 to move)?) reduces the 75 to 39. Mining the plains hill nets an additional 2h/turn, which takes us at best down to about 32.

We could build a settler then whip a wb, and get StP close to 2 pop before masonry is finished. But then we need to use the second pop to work the wb for 18 turns to get a third pop, who can mine a grassland hill for an extra 6h/turn, and get whipped for 90 hammers.

I think 9+24 turns would be the absolute limit, based on 6 forests and 1 pop for 450/750, and the rest at between 10 and 18h/turn. And Moscow would need to build wb then worker in order to get the StP pop up, and all those forests chopped.

What is Moscow's happiness limit? I really should not have started the revolution . Can we afford to whp Moscow twice within 15 turns?

Because of the stone bonus, the cash is probably worth chasing the pyramids for, if we have a reasonable chance of success.

Whipping next turn should then complete the warrior through overflow. we have 63/150, whipping will add 90, and the next turn of production another 9, so we get 12 overflow (11?), and the warrior is at 10/22. Delaying the library to build a granary, wb or warriors is probably worthwhile, so the delay in writing is is not disasterous.

Writing is 268 bulbs away, some 14 turns?

I have uploaded the save for everyone to have a look, and will continue tomorrow evening.

Turn 42, 2740 BC: Mao Zedong adopts Slavery!
Turn 43, 2710 BC: Alexander adopts Slavery!
Turn 53, 2410 BC: You have discovered Bronze Working!
Turn 54, 2380 BC: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 54, 2380 BC: Team One adopts Slavery!

 

[amh52]

I think mboza's calculations are about right. Stone city won't have a border pop though and I don't think all the forests will yield 30 hammers. I would definitely use a wb and grow the city to size 3 if we do the Pyramids. We could delay the settler in Moscow until we have just under 105 hammers into it (I think 5 turns) and then whip for 2 pops and use the overflow to build the wb and almost finish the warrior. Or we could use one forest to chop the wb either in Moscow or stone city. Might be better. Realistically we could get the Pyramids in about 40 turns. It almost sounds ok.

But is it worth sacrificing defense (warriors), expansion (settlers) and exploration (wbs)? 375 hammers would bring us a long way towards those goals. I am still not convinced.

 

[mdy]

We will only be able to chop three forests without a border pop and I think I remember reading somewhere that whipping wonders gives you fewer hammers so I think the pyramids is to big a risk. Perhaps it would be better to revert to our original plan of researching writing next and getting an early academy in Moscow. St Petersburg can then build workboats and increase our military.

In Moscow I agree with whipping the granary. Once the granary is built we could build another warrior while St Petersburg builds a workboat. The libary could be sped up by chopping one of the forests.

 

[mboza]

ok, my current thought would be to proceed with writing, and get StP up and running. We could still for for masonry after, if only for the cash bonus. And StP at size 3 or 4 will be able to work 2 or 3 mines, which would make up for some of the delay.

A 50% penalty for whipping a wonder might be right.

1000BC is turn 100, so we have about 45 turns to get the pyramids on average?

Also, we have no bronze in sight. Do we need to send out a boat in search, should we be looking at iron working, or archery?

 

[mdy]

The lack of bronze is not an immediate problem. Warriors/fogbusting will be enough until barb axeman show up, though we should probably send out a workboat to find other civilizations in the not too distant future.

Ironworking will be needed soon to clear the jungle in our third city so I would recommend researching mysticism then iron working after writing.

 

[mboza]

Also, do we have a long term plan yet? Are we looking at diplomacy by having lots of friends, diplomacy by having all the population, or space race?

I would quite like to try the whole specialist economy, research everything, have fusion by 1400 AD and launch into space type game, but I have no experience at it. If that game plan requires pyramids, then I am happy to give it a shot, even if we miss.

 

[mboza]

Writing and granary it is. Starting the second half now
13 - 2350 BC out of anarchy, whip settler, 18 turns to writing
14 - 2320
15 - 2290 complete cottage, will move to chop/mine plains hill
IBT -Judaism founded in a distant land
16 - 2260 complete warrior, start granary, found StP on the stone, start wb, send warrior off exploring,
17 - 2230
18 - 2200 start chopping forest
19 - 2170
20 - 2140 BC - Moscow grows to 3, working fish, 2 cottages.

I have fortified the new warrior where the old one was, and sent the old one exploring.
Moscow is set to grow in 6 turns, and will be unhappy. We can bring the warrior back, or whip, or have 1 unhappy pop for 2 turns. The current whip penalty expires in 8 turns.

We might want to whip the granary now, in 5 turns (before the 4th pop) or in 8 turns. If we whip in 5 or 8 turns, we want to have the warrior move back for happiness. If we whip now, the city is too small to care about the lack of defense.

St Petersberg is 12/45 into a workboat, working a grassland forest. The worker chops in 3 turns. I think I would complete the chop, work the clams while mining the hill, and then work the clams and mined hill. The clams will provide the 36 food to grow while the hill is mined, so I probably should have worked the plains hill forest for 3h all along. If we switch to the plains hill for 2 turns, the wb will complete with the chop, which is probably ideal.

No enemy, barbs, or animals were seen at any point.

 

[TDK]

I think we should bring the warrior back, I see no point in exploring land we already know. If he ventures north he will probably die before he reaches any blank spots.

I tried a pyramid gambit in a test game. We got it in 895BC by chopping all but one forest and building mines. While waiting for Masonry we finished the work boat and a granary. I checked the AI in world builder and 3 of them were working on the pyramids but none of them were even half way there. Apparently there is not much stone on a tropic world and it seems Colossus and Great Wall were higher priority for the AI's with stone.
The granary was central to getting the Pyramids ASAP. Saint Pete grew to 3 and could work all 3 mines(running a food deficit) as soon as they were ready because of the food stored in the granary. Another bonus is the forest 1W1SW of Pete, the border of Moscow will expand and we will therefore get the full amount of hammers from this forest and be able to build a mine there.

TDK

 

[amh52]

I would whip the granary in 8 turns. By then we will have learnt writing and we can start the library. We can whip it for 3 pop 15 turns later (we should have 6 pop by then). We could use the granary overflow (should be 24 or 28 depending on what we do with unhappiness) to build a warrior in between.

I am ok to research masonry and build a granary in StPete next. Then we can make the decision about the Pyramids.

Hamfist, do you have the possibility to play a turn? When is it convenient for you to play?
Astrum, are you still with us?
Otherwise I can play tomorrow night.

 

[Astrum]

I'm still with you

 

[mdy]

The plan outlined by amh52 seems fine. I would keep the warrior exploring, it saves us having to build a galley to find out what is on the rest of the island. The barbarian density is not too big on monarch and the warrior will have an advantage in all it`s battles so it should survive long enough to do some useful exploring.

Long term I think the quickest way to win is diplomacy by having lot`s of friend. I have no idea how we can possibly get fusion by 1400AD.

 

[amh52]

Ok, I can play in a few hours. I'll follow the plan above and stop once we have researched masonry. Let me know if you have any last minute observation.

Astrum, do you want to play after me?

 

[Astrum]

Yes, fine by me.

 

[amh52]

Turn 0 - 2140 -
Turn 1 - 2110 Start moving warrior back to Moscow. Move other warrior in fog-busting position.
Turn 2 - 2080 -
Turn 3 - 2050 Wb done in StPete, start Granary. Worker starts a mine.
Turn 4 - 2020 -
Turn 5 - 1990 -
Turn 6 - 1960 Moscow size 4.
Turn 7 - 1930 Writing. Masonry 8 turns.
Turn 8 - 1900 Whip Granary in Moscow.
Turn 9 - 1870 Moscow starts Warrior. Warrior in Moscow moves north.
StPete size 2. Mine done, worker moves to grassland-hill.
Research down to 90%, adds 1 turn to Masonry.
Turn 10 - 1840 Worker starts Mine (11 turns)
Turn 11 - 1810 Fog-busting warrior starts exploring again.
Turn 12 - 1780 Warrior done in Moscow, start Library.
Turn 13 - 1750 -
Turn 14 - 1720 Granary done in StPete. 1 Turn to Masonry. Decide to build another Warrior as it is only 3 turns.
Turn 15 - 1690 Masonry.
Moscow pops a border. Reveals Mao in the SE and a few tiles in the W.
Moscow will grow unhappy next turn. 8 more turns until we can whip Library.
Open border to Alex


What to research next? Our rate is somewhere between 90 and 100%. Archery and Myst are 6 turns, Sailing between 9 and 11, IW between 18 and 21 and Alphabet between 27 and 31. Not sure if anything else makes sense.

I think we can have the Pyramids done in about 30 turns from now if we follow TDK's plan. That is between 1000BC and 900BC. I think it is possible and actually it is very tempting now. The extra happiness and science from representation and the GE points would be very useful. That would give us time to research sailing and IW in preparation for the next step. Maybe IW first in case it is in our area already. (It would be nice next to StPete ). We could also play safe and research archery next so we have the possibility to quickly whip an archer in case of trouble. Last choice I think is alphabet although it would take almost as long as the Pyramids.

If we don't do the Pyramids, I suggest researching Sailing-IW-Myst and building wb/settler/galley in StPete so we can expand quickly.

Let me know what you think.

 

[mdy]

I don`t think we need sailing yet-exploration can be done with workboats. Archery will not be needed until barb axeman start showing up, if we build our third city 2E of the cows (to get cow,fish,gems in the fat cross) then we will be able to fogbust the entire eastern half of our island with our current fogbusting warrior. If we build one more warrior and place it on the gems hill to the north then it will block of any barb access to our cities from the west. Fortified in this position our warrior will have a strength of 4 which will beat barb warriors/archers. Alphabet is not too useful to us at the moment either so I would recommend researching iron working and then mysticism next.

After the library is whipped in Moscow I would build a warrior (for for the gems hill) while growing back to size four, then run two scientist specialist until a GS is born. After that a settler could be built and whipped for 2 population (maybe chop a forest for it to).

In St Petersburg I agree that it is worth trying for the Pyramids, but I would not build a warrior there first in case it causes the AI to beat us to it by 2 turns.

 

[TDK]

Nice work everyone. I would like Sailing first as I think our next city should be founded to the west where there is little jungle and little distance upkeep. Sailing would also immediately grant us the benefits of intercivilizational trade.

As for the warrior in Pete, mdy said it: "I would not build a warrior there first in case it causes the AI to beat us to it by 2 turns.."

TDK