Tough call on trading Philosophy, I would have done it too. We should be looking at buying Astronomy from the Incas for whatever the cost, if we can do this soon we could use the scientist on printing press and pick up scientific method with liberalism.
We now have negative modifiers with Rome and France - this makes me think we should go with the buddhist block. We need Nanjing to convert to Buddhism.
I don't understand why we are not in or outside Beijing - let's go there already.
There are still micromanagement issues between Rostov and Yaroslav' - some cottages are not being worked!
We haven't canceled the cow deal with the mongols i mentioned - this results in us losing precious food!
We now have negative modifiers with Rome and France - this makes me think we should go with the buddhist block. We need Nanjing to convert to Buddhism.
I think we will want friends in both the buddist block and hindu block, so I would stick with no state religion for now. Once the AI`s start to switch en masse to free religion we can adopt whatever religion is most convenient without picking up to many - modifiers. A few - modifiers with Rome and France are not disastorous, they can be overcome.
There are still micromanagement issues between Rostov and Yaroslav' - some cottages are not being worked!
I kept this deal so we could get a "we appreciate the years you have supplied us with resources " modifier. If we pop rush a library in Shanghai we will get another source of cows after the first border expansion, if we have taken Bejing by then.
Nanjing should be our next target after Bejing to give us the option of switching to Buddism, I also think it contains the Chicken Iza.
We may want to build a university in the capital after it has finished it`s next maceman.
I think we will want friends in both the buddist block and hindu block, so I would stick with no state religion for now. Once the AI`s start to switch en masse to free religion we can adopt whatever religion is most convenient without picking up to many - modifiers. A few - modifiers with Rome and France are not disastorous, they can be overcome.
I had a look at the save. The situation looks good in China. You guys made good progress. Is it worth upgrading a warrior to spearman to deal with horse archer or is it not worth the gold? We should try to keep research at 100% but if we take Beijing in the next few turns we might be able to afford the gold. Otherwise great job.
It was a difficult call on the Philo trade. But I guess it was worth the risk as we didn't want to have to research Philo ourselves. Let's just hope that Mansa won't beat us to Liberalism. We should see in the next turn set. I doubt that HC will trade us Astronomy but we can always try. He did pretty well to have it already.
I assume we will switch to free religion once we have Liberalism, right?
Alex has a Galley next to Egypt. Should we worry about it?
The Americans are NE of HC. Are we trying to meet them?
I don't think we need spears, one horse will not be a problem for our Maces. If we leave the longbow and the axe in Shanghai we should be fine.
I think we should switch Moscow to Harbor now, it will be worth 12 extra gold/turn(that is: 21 science beakers!) when we get the Great Lighthouse! A University will cost 2.5 times as much and yield 24 science beakers and no health.
The cow will be a long time coming, should we cancel the cow deal with the mongols and sell them copper instead? Let's sell our horses too.
Something is fishy in the diplomacy system, look at Montezuma, we are +2 with him but he is annoyed and won't sign an open border agreement. Is that normal?
Looking at the save at the moment, intend to play tomorrow evening.
Liberalism is 10 turns away, I looked at Rostov and Yaroslav', moved a forest to a cottage in Rostov, cannot see anything in Yaroslav' apart from a cottage that completes in 2 turns.
The GS nets us 2475 of 3588 for printing press, we might need 4 or 5 turns to research the rest.
So is the plan currently to research liberalism, take astronomy as the free tech, start printing press and burn the scientist?
If we get astronomy (highly unlikely), or lose the race to liberalism, what should we do? Do we want to finish liberalism anyway, or just swap to printing press?
If we get astronomy, do we try for scientific method with liberalism, or just grab printing press and use the scientist on scientific method?
I agree that the spearman is unnecessary, I will move a stack towards bejing. This and next turn to get into position, 2 turns of bombardment, then I will start the suicide cats on turn 4. That longbow gets +135%, with two first strikes, Our CR2 mace cuts it to 90%, but that is still 8 vs 11.4, so I will sacrifice one or two macemen as well as the cats, and keep the CR mace for a combat that can be won. I would not be surprised if we lose all 4 cats and the first longbowman is still at full strength.
Bejing has 5 defenders, the axe and the horse do not count for much, but the three longbows will take some shifting. We have 4 cats and 6 maces (one CR2), which should be enough, while keeping the longbow and an axe to defend shanghai.
Oh, I always upgrade suicide cats for collateral bonus, should I pick CR1 instead?
What is our objective in China? Total conquest, or just the big cities? Do we even know where Macau is?
I think I will keep Moscow on the maceman for the moment, and switch to harbour when he finishes, as I can see us running short of macemen in china.
Doh, accidently moved a maceman, so I guess I have started this turnset. I have moved some guys to start bombarding bejing, but not ended the turn yet
If we whip a theatre in Shanghai as soon as it comes out of resistance we should get the cows by the end of the next turn set.
Something is fishy in the diplomacy system, look at Montezuma, we are +2 with him but he is annoyed and won't sign an open border agreement. Is that normal?
Montezuma is harder to befriend than most. If we want open borders with him we will either have to gift a good tech to him or switch to buddism.
I think it is extremly unlikly that we will be able to trade for Astronomy, so I would grab it with liberalism if possible and use the GS on printing press.
Bejing is protected by walls and castles so it will take longer to remove the defenses. Once that has been done I would suicide one mace, followed by the four catapults, our remaining forces should be just enough to take Bejing.
It is unlikly that Mao will ever vote for us so I would conquer him completly.
Once liberalism is discovered should we switch to caste system to better exploit our GP farm? We will probably want to adopt a state religion after the AI`s switch to free religion, so maybe we should avoid that civic for now?
I think it is worth the risk, I think it will cost us 3-4 turns in total(Moscow will grow +25 and PP will improve our town output).
Mboza said:
I looked at Rostov and Yaroslav', moved a forest to a cottage in Rostov, cannot see anything in Yaroslav' apart from a cottage that completes in 2 turns.
the gift of +1gpt seems like a good idea. Every + will help.
Once we get Liberalism and take Free Religion I belive that conversion to X religion requests stop.
I think we will get beat to liberalism unless we slow Mansa. Maybe convincing someone to war on Mansa Musa might be a good idea??? it only costs us a -1 if I remember correctly.
Unfortunatly no one is willing to be bribed into a war with Mansa Musa, but we can reduce the time needed to research liberalism by one turn if we higher two scientists in Novogrod.
turn 0 - 755 AD - moved the cats and a couple of maces towards beijing, shifted a trieme to uncover Guangzhou (CD1,drill1 Longbow, swordsman, great merchant), changed someone in Rostov from a forest to a cottage, employed two scientists in Novograd to drop liberalism to 9 turns (at the cost of 18 food, 36 hammers, 9 commerce, and 9 turns towards a hamlet), canceled cow to Kublai, trading copper instead. Would have whipped Yaroslav, but it costs us 5 bulbs/turn, so added a scientist there too.
IBT trade maps with Germany
turn 1 - 770 AD StP builds mace, starts cat. Hangzhou has one longbow, 2 galleys, 2 caravels., Yaroslav, starts working cottage, now needs lighthouse for growth
IBT accept open borders with Kublai
turn 2 - 785 AD greek ship has disappeared from NE, first round of bombardment drops Beijing from 125 to 90%
IBT map with gandhi
turn 3 - 800 AD StP builds cat, starts another. Gain calms, trade them to Frederick for 2 gpt, Beijing to 55%, rush threater in Shanghai, still surrounded by chinese culture, 1279/3139 = 6 turns to liberalism
turn 4 - 815 AD monty asks us to declare on germany, refused, whip Shanghai again, goes from starving and unhappy, to a model of contented, starving citizenry, with a completed granary, albeit at size 2., bombard beijing to 20%, 1616/3139 = 337/turn, = 4.5 turns, need another 40 or so beakers/turn,
turn 5 - 830 AD start harbour in moscow, lighthouse in Shanghai, Bejing reduecd to zero defense, our elite city raiding 2 maceman is now at 7.4% chance of victory
IBT sold map to Incans for map + gold
turn 6 - 845 AD first cat manages 3 hits on a longbow, at 5 vs 13.5, reducing it to 3.8/6. After two more cats, the macemen went in at 80%+, so Bejing fell for a mere three cats. Sent the surviving two cats towards Nanjing
turn 7 - 860 AD, reach Nanjing, 3 cats, 3 maces already in place
turn 8 - 875 AD bombard Nanjing
turn 9 - 890 AD trade philospophy for music with ghandi, theology for paper with saladin, discover Liberalism, Mao has astronomy. Is it worth offering a peace deal for astronomy, and taking printing press as the free tech? - mao refuses, so research astronomy with Liberalism, start printing press, used the GS, 2 turns to finish it, rostov built harbour, started uni
turn 10 - 905 AD MM offers engineering plus 10 gold for liberalism, ended up refusing this, as Hattie will give us 800 gold + engineering for education, though getting a +ve modifier with the most populus civ is presumably unimportant. Moscow built harbour, started university, StP built maceman, started cat
thoughts - Rostov or Moscow should build a workboat for shanghai. We could trade for engineering then trade it/gift it on to a lot of civs. I avoided the 1gpt gifts, as I was wary of running out of cash while chasing liberalism, but beijing solved that, and Hattie will offer us enough cash for education to last us a while. Our tech rate should be about 80% or so, and I guess I should have switched to free religion already, but we want to keep bureaucracy and representation.
All these remaining chinese cities seem to be on hills, with city defense 3, drill 1 longbows protecting them, or in hideous artic locations that we cannot raze. If they go like Shanghai, we are not gaining any pop for them, so it might be worth focusing on libraries and observatories, and making peace at an appropriate time. Macau in particular looks worthless.
Spoiler:
Turn 217, 755 AD: Tokugawa adopts Vassalage!
Turn 220, 800 AD: Alexander adopts Bureaucracy!
Turn 221, 815 AD: Gandhi adopts Theocracy!
Turn 221, 815 AD: Nain Singh (Great Engineer) has been born in Washington (Washington)!
Turn 222, 830 AD: Al-Khwarizmi (Great Scientist) has been born in Memphis (Hatshepsut)!
Turn 223, 845 AD: Team One's Catapult (5.00) vs Mao Zedong's Longbowman (13.50)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Combat Odds: 0.0%
Turn 223, 845 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 223, 845 AD: (City Defense: +100%)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Team One's Catapult is hit for 31 (69/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Mao Zedong's Longbowman is hit for 12 (88/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Mao Zedong's Longbowman is hit for 12 (76/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Team One's Catapult is hit for 31 (38/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Mao Zedong's Longbowman is hit for 12 (64/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Team One's Catapult is hit for 31 (7/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Team One's Catapult is hit for 31 (0/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Mao Zedong's Longbowman has defeated Team One's Catapult!
Turn 223, 845 AD: Team One's Catapult (5.00) vs Mao Zedong's Longbowman (9.18)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Combat Odds: 1.4%
Turn 223, 845 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 223, 845 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Team One's Catapult is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Team One's Catapult is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Mao Zedong's Longbowman is hit for 14 (76/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Team One's Catapult is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Mao Zedong's Longbowman is hit for 14 (62/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Team One's Catapult is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Mao Zedong's Longbowman has defeated Team One's Catapult!
Turn 223, 845 AD: Team One's Catapult (5.00) vs Mao Zedong's Longbowman (8.16)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Combat Odds: 4.4%
Turn 223, 845 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 223, 845 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Team One's Catapult is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Mao Zedong's Longbowman is hit for 14 (66/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Team One's Catapult is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Team One's Catapult is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Mao Zedong's Longbowman is hit for 14 (52/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Mao Zedong's Longbowman is hit for 14 (38/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Team One's Catapult is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Mao Zedong's Longbowman has defeated Team One's Catapult!
Turn 223, 845 AD: Team One's Maceman (8.00) vs Mao Zedong's Longbowman (5.70)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Combat Odds: 82.7%
Turn 223, 845 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 223, 845 AD: (City Defense: +100%)
Turn 223, 845 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 223, 845 AD: (Combat: +10%)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Team One's Maceman is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Team One's Maceman is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Mao Zedong's Longbowman is hit for 19 (31/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Team One's Maceman is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Mao Zedong's Longbowman is hit for 19 (12/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Team One's Maceman is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Mao Zedong's Longbowman is hit for 19 (0/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Team One's Maceman has defeated Mao Zedong's Longbowman!
Turn 223, 845 AD: Team One's Maceman (8.00) vs Mao Zedong's Longbowman (4.68)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Combat Odds: 94.4%
Turn 223, 845 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 223, 845 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 223, 845 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Team One's Maceman is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Mao Zedong's Longbowman is hit for 21 (31/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Team One's Maceman is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Mao Zedong's Longbowman is hit for 21 (10/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Mao Zedong's Longbowman is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Team One's Maceman has defeated Mao Zedong's Longbowman!
Turn 223, 845 AD: Team One's Maceman (8.00) vs Mao Zedong's Longbowman (3.42)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Combat Odds: 99.3%
Turn 223, 845 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 223, 845 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 223, 845 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Mao Zedong's Longbowman is hit for 22 (16/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Mao Zedong's Longbowman is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Team One's Maceman has defeated Mao Zedong's Longbowman!
Turn 223, 845 AD: Team One's Maceman (8.00) vs Mao Zedong's Horse Archer (4.20)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Combat Odds: 99.0%
Turn 223, 845 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 223, 845 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Team One's Maceman is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Team One's Maceman is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Team One's Maceman is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Mao Zedong's Horse Archer is hit for 24 (46/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Team One's Maceman is hit for 16 (36/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Mao Zedong's Horse Archer is hit for 24 (22/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Mao Zedong's Horse Archer is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Team One's Maceman has defeated Mao Zedong's Horse Archer!
Turn 223, 845 AD: Team One's Maceman (8.80) vs Mao Zedong's Axeman (4.37)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Combat Odds: 99.2%
Turn 223, 845 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 223, 845 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 223, 845 AD: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 223, 845 AD: (Combat: +50%)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Mao Zedong's Axeman is hit for 25 (45/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Mao Zedong's Axeman is hit for 25 (20/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Mao Zedong's Axeman is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Team One's Maceman has defeated Mao Zedong's Axeman!
Turn 223, 845 AD: You have captured Beijing!!!
Turn 223, 845 AD: The borders of Shanghai have expanded!
Turn 223, 845 AD: Nabu-rimanni (Great Scientist) has been born in Timbuktu (Mansa Musa)!
Turn 223, 845 AD: Isabella adopts Theocracy!
Turn 224, 860 AD: Thomas Edison (Great Engineer) has been born in Cuzco (Huayna Capac)!
Turn 225, 875 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 36 ? for Rostov.
Turn 225, 875 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Nanjing to 116%!
Turn 225, 875 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Nanjing to 107%!
Turn 225, 875 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Nanjing to 98%!
Turn 225, 875 AD: Team One is the first to discover Liberalism!
Turn 225, 875 AD: You have discovered Liberalism!
Turn 225, 875 AD: Saladin adopts Bureaucracy!
Turn 225, 875 AD: Saladin adopts Theocracy!
Turn 225, 875 AD: Huayna Capac has completed Notre Dame!
Turn 226, 890 AD: You have discovered Music!
Turn 226, 890 AD: You have discovered Theology!
Turn 226, 890 AD: You have discovered Astronomy!
Turn 226, 890 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Nanjing to 90%!
Turn 226, 890 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Nanjing to 81%!
Turn 226, 890 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Nanjing to 72%!
Turn 226, 890 AD: Hypatia (Great Scientist) has been born in Kyoto (Tokugawa)!
Turn 226, 890 AD: Rosalind Franklin (Great Scientist) has been born in Mecca (Saladin)!
Turn 227, 905 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Nanjing to 63%!
Turn 227, 905 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Nanjing to 55%!
Turn 227, 905 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Nanjing to 46%!
Finally finished, got liberalism first for astronomy, no disasters, took Beijing more easily than expected, and I have stopped editing the progress post above.
Good news on taking Bejing so easily. I would take a few more cities after Nanjing. They won`t be swamped by Chinease culture like Shanghai, so they should not suffer massive population loss. The Great Lighthouse will ensure even small cities pay for themselves. We easily have the military capability to do this and it would get us more votes at the UN. It may be an idea to leave China with 1 or 2 poor cities (e.g Macau), but remain at war with them so we could bribe other civs to go to war with them for the mutual military struggle bonus.
I would agree with building a workboat in Rostov after the university is complete. Maybe it would be a good idea to switch from bulding a university to an observatory in Moscow, they are cheaper and will allow an extra scientist in our GP farm. Novogrod is more of a commerce pwerhouse than a production powerhouse so maybe that should switch to building a harbor/observatory after the maceman is done.
I would agree with switching to free religion.
We could give Frederick Music in exchange for peace with Montezume, 20 gold and his world map. This would give us a positive modifier with Montezuma, as well as ensuring we do not pick up anymore - modifiers for refusing to join in with their war.
Should we switch Rostov to a work boat or a lighthouse?
I also think we should rush the lighthouse in Yaroslav and dump that scientist.
mdy said:
We could give Frederick Music in exchange for peace with Montezume, 20 gold and his world map. This would give us a positive modifier with Montezuma, as well as ensuring we do not pick up anymore - modifiers for refusing to join in with their war.
We are building universities at twice the normal speed.
I agree with proceeding with the Chinese war for now. We should raze Macau and Tianjin, Chengdu has some value for us.
So, what is our strategy now? I feel we need to expand, but in what direction? Alex would be the obvious choice but he is very popular with several of our good friends, we will have to wait until he attacks us(which he will not do as long as we have our army on his continent). The Indians and Romans are not very popular, but they love each other so it's probably both or none.
Egypt is the real danger, they are big and they are extremely popular with many of our friends. The best thing that could happen is if one of the buddhists attack Egypt, and egypt then changes state religion to Taoism. The problem is, he is very popular with his neighbours who are also the next most powerfull buddhists. Can we think of a way to incite a war against Ægypt? I don't see it happening. One way of weakening his diplo game could be if we converted to buddhism and attacked him, would he then convert to Taoism? Can we be sure of it?
Another way forward is to simply attack Egypt, Incas and Mali one after the other and stay close with the hindu block.
Moscow will need both a university and observatory, so the question is whether we can run a third scientist before we finish both. If we cannot, then university, observatory is better. If we can, it is then a matter of working out what the 25% bonus a few turns earlier is worth compared to the slightly later bonus, but extra scientist while building the university.
Good point about the German-Aztec war, bribing them into peace is not something that crossed my mind.
Right. I think we should bypass Macau and Tianjin then.
I can see a point in building an observatory first, we need to delay the engineer in St. Petersburg anyway as all gpp produced there after the engineer pops are wasted. It is really a waste to work a plains forest in a city like Moscow and I would rather have an extra scientist. Lets chop the forests outside of Moscow for the observatory and university.
Before we proceed, we really need to discuss our strategy though.
Good set. Seeing as space is so very limited, getting these important cities from Mao will make a very big difference. Bringing in more allies against Mao is critical.
We can probably goad Alex into a war with us by making some unreasonable demands and by coordinating some trade embargoes against him. Maybe that would be a better use than gifting Engineering: use it to secure trade embargoes against Alex.
We need to improve relations all around, reach Mass Media, and build the UN.
I think our Economy is on the right track. Getting Liberalism seems to indicate we are doing well tech wise.
Our diplomatic efforts seem to be on track. I doubt we will want to declare on anyone. It has the greatest cumulative permanent minus against us.
Great People may be the key here. As best as I can tell, another Great Scientist will help with one of the Key techs (Is it possible to get him to do Radio?). A Great Artist will help with Mass Media.
Strategy wise, ensuring another Great Engineer may be very helpful for building the UN. I see no other need for a GE. If we seem to be running short to get the GE, maybe trading for Steel and putting in the Ironworks will help with hiring more Engineers in St P. I think a switch back to producing GE points in St P now might be a good idea, as it will cost us less GPP to produce him now as compared to later.
I think our next set of Great people should be GE, GS, GA, and then GS until the end.
Another interesting tactic to pursue would be to build a Confucian and Jewish monsatery and see if we can split the field a bit more by spreading religion to other cultures. breaking up the Buddhist and Hindu blocs seems to be a good way to get more votes for us.
Do we really want to trade Liberalism to Hattie even if it is a good deal for us? She is already ahead and will probably end up trading it to the other budhists making her even stronger.
If we continue the war with Mao he will probably capitulate soon. If he becomes vassal of someone else it will start another war. If it is Alex, it might be good for us as we wouldn't have to declare on him. I am not sure who else it could be but there is a small risk there depending on who takes him. I don't think we should take him as a vassal if he offers as it would give us a negative modifier with all other civs.
I think we can play another turn set pushing on the attack against China and see what happens in the meantime. The attack on the Budhists might be necessary but is pretty radical. I would only do it in a last resort.
I agree with the other stuff. Do we want to upgrade some triremes to caravels so we don't have any nasty surprise? It is pretty cheap.
Do we really want to trade Liberalism to Hattie even if it is a good deal for us? She is already ahead and will probably end up trading it to the other budhists making her even stronger.
Hattie will give us engineering + 800 gold for Education, not Liberalism. Not sure that we can get a better deal from anyone else. But I would agree that I do not want to help Hattie at all, and do not want to help MM with further techs.
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