Kodii
Ka ICE
As long as you can get to it today 
Happy Boxing Day!
Happy Boxing Day!
SGOTM 03 - The Real Ms. Beyond
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
I open the save and take a look at the situation.
On the diplomatic front:
The worst thing I see is that we are behind in tech: there are several AIs who have everything we do and other techs besides. We want a tech lead ASAP, and the only way to do that is trading, so I'm going to see what I can do with that during my turnset.
The other big diplomatic factor is that we're soon going to start incurring huge "trading with my worst enemies" penalties no matter what we do. Honestly, this is the part of the diplomatic system I dislike the most and understand the least: I'll do my best to avoid racking up the penalties on my turns, but I can't promise much. It would be nice if someone who understands it can develop a coherent diplomatic plan for us to follow.
On the domestic front:
Not enough food! Not only is it more efficient to grow pop and whip than it is to build using ordinary hammers, we have cities far below their happiness caps. If there is a single rule of Civ4, it is that it is extremely hard to go wrong just maximizing food. Two particular problem are St. Pete, where we want to farm, not cottage (we want to support scientists here, and as I already noted, we have to irrigate to get water to the rice, to iron city, and to the northern city); and Moscow, whose clams apparently got pillaged during the wars and were never rebuilt. I'm going to try to rectify these problems ASAP.
On the military front:
We have lots of axes, but only three galleys, two of which are exploring. I'm going to try to build more of those, too.
On the conquest front:
The AIs have been spamming cities like there's no tomorrow. I think we should seriously limit the number of future cities we found rather than conquer.
410 AD: I put all the cities under the governor, emphasize food/production commerce.
IBT: Colossus BIAFAL. We started this too late, I guess. I just hope we don't lose the Hanging Gardens.
425 AD: Yaroslavl' finishes a workboat, I start it on a granary. Novgorod goes to a library. We have enough military to fight a defensive war and falling behind on tech is the big danger here, in my opinion, so I'm going to emphasize that. St. Pete finishes a worker and I put it to the National Epic: it's going to take a long time to build that without marble, so we need to get it started early.
I trade Mao Polytheism for 300 gold. I meet Huayna Capac in the far east, sign open borders, and sell Polytheism, Alphabet, and 360 gold for Currency. Feel free to shoot me for this trade if it was a bad idea, but the Alphabet monopoly is long-broken, Currency will immediately bring in 10 commerce/turn before anything else, and no one else is willing to trade it to us.
440: Delete the scout to save 1 gold/turn.
IBT: Victoria converts to Buddhism.
455: GS born in St. Pete. I build an academy, since Optics is honestly a rather cheap tech, so we won't get full beaker-return from it, and it would require waiting six turns anyways.
I also whip a harbor in St. Pete, sending the overflow to the National Epic: the only way that city will ever produce anything is through the whip. There's a lot of overflow, 215/120, despite only putting one turn into it before whipping (the whip costs two pop); I send the overflow to the National Epic.
470: Our western galley looks like it's blocked by Tokugawa and Isabella, neither of whom will sign open borders. I look around some more with it.
485: Hanging Gardens finish!
I chop the spices near Moscow to build a plantation and finish a workboat for the clams.
We meet Frederick, who's very backwards, in the west.
IBT: Tokugawa demands we cancel deals with Gandhi. I don't see any reason to, so I refuse. Gandhi lands a settler on the far northern part of our island. I'm sorry I didn't see the boat to close borders in time, but he may not settle, and even if he does, we can always just take the city from him.
500: Nothing much.
IBT: Gandhi settles.
515: I trade Gandhi Compass + 20 gold for Construction.
530: We finish Machinery. I stop here so we can talk over our next tech choice.
I'm leaning towards Code of Laws/Civil Service to Paper and Education, myself, because it will allow us to spread-irrigate St. Pete and get Bureaucracy.
I have workers pre-chopping jungle near St. Pete. I made an error with Yaroslavl' build order: it has one turn into a lighthouse, so the next player can whip it if they desire. Novgorod will finish a library in two turns, then it should probably go to a marketplace or military. I think we should spare Moscow the whip until it reaches its happy cap (12 now), so it can start building up those cottages.
We can build catapults now if we want to kill someone.
I'm kind of busy right now, and I don't know how much input I'll be able to provide until after New Year's. There's lots of important stuff going on, though, which people should talk about before playing.
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/The_Real_Ms_Beyond_SG003_AD0530_01.Civ4SavedGame
On the diplomatic front:
The worst thing I see is that we are behind in tech: there are several AIs who have everything we do and other techs besides. We want a tech lead ASAP, and the only way to do that is trading, so I'm going to see what I can do with that during my turnset.
The other big diplomatic factor is that we're soon going to start incurring huge "trading with my worst enemies" penalties no matter what we do. Honestly, this is the part of the diplomatic system I dislike the most and understand the least: I'll do my best to avoid racking up the penalties on my turns, but I can't promise much. It would be nice if someone who understands it can develop a coherent diplomatic plan for us to follow.
On the domestic front:
Not enough food! Not only is it more efficient to grow pop and whip than it is to build using ordinary hammers, we have cities far below their happiness caps. If there is a single rule of Civ4, it is that it is extremely hard to go wrong just maximizing food. Two particular problem are St. Pete, where we want to farm, not cottage (we want to support scientists here, and as I already noted, we have to irrigate to get water to the rice, to iron city, and to the northern city); and Moscow, whose clams apparently got pillaged during the wars and were never rebuilt. I'm going to try to rectify these problems ASAP.
On the military front:
We have lots of axes, but only three galleys, two of which are exploring. I'm going to try to build more of those, too.
On the conquest front:
The AIs have been spamming cities like there's no tomorrow. I think we should seriously limit the number of future cities we found rather than conquer.
410 AD: I put all the cities under the governor, emphasize food/production commerce.
IBT: Colossus BIAFAL. We started this too late, I guess. I just hope we don't lose the Hanging Gardens.
425 AD: Yaroslavl' finishes a workboat, I start it on a granary. Novgorod goes to a library. We have enough military to fight a defensive war and falling behind on tech is the big danger here, in my opinion, so I'm going to emphasize that. St. Pete finishes a worker and I put it to the National Epic: it's going to take a long time to build that without marble, so we need to get it started early.
I trade Mao Polytheism for 300 gold. I meet Huayna Capac in the far east, sign open borders, and sell Polytheism, Alphabet, and 360 gold for Currency. Feel free to shoot me for this trade if it was a bad idea, but the Alphabet monopoly is long-broken, Currency will immediately bring in 10 commerce/turn before anything else, and no one else is willing to trade it to us.
440: Delete the scout to save 1 gold/turn.
IBT: Victoria converts to Buddhism.
455: GS born in St. Pete. I build an academy, since Optics is honestly a rather cheap tech, so we won't get full beaker-return from it, and it would require waiting six turns anyways.
I also whip a harbor in St. Pete, sending the overflow to the National Epic: the only way that city will ever produce anything is through the whip. There's a lot of overflow, 215/120, despite only putting one turn into it before whipping (the whip costs two pop); I send the overflow to the National Epic.
470: Our western galley looks like it's blocked by Tokugawa and Isabella, neither of whom will sign open borders. I look around some more with it.
485: Hanging Gardens finish!
I chop the spices near Moscow to build a plantation and finish a workboat for the clams.
We meet Frederick, who's very backwards, in the west.
IBT: Tokugawa demands we cancel deals with Gandhi. I don't see any reason to, so I refuse. Gandhi lands a settler on the far northern part of our island. I'm sorry I didn't see the boat to close borders in time, but he may not settle, and even if he does, we can always just take the city from him.
500: Nothing much.
IBT: Gandhi settles.
515: I trade Gandhi Compass + 20 gold for Construction.
530: We finish Machinery. I stop here so we can talk over our next tech choice.
I'm leaning towards Code of Laws/Civil Service to Paper and Education, myself, because it will allow us to spread-irrigate St. Pete and get Bureaucracy.
I have workers pre-chopping jungle near St. Pete. I made an error with Yaroslavl' build order: it has one turn into a lighthouse, so the next player can whip it if they desire. Novgorod will finish a library in two turns, then it should probably go to a marketplace or military. I think we should spare Moscow the whip until it reaches its happy cap (12 now), so it can start building up those cottages.
We can build catapults now if we want to kill someone.
I'm kind of busy right now, and I don't know how much input I'll be able to provide until after New Year's. There's lots of important stuff going on, though, which people should talk about before playing.
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3/The_Real_Ms_Beyond_SG003_AD0530_01.Civ4SavedGame
Kodii
Ka ICE
Compromise (skip)
greggo (UP)
LKendter (on deck)
grangerm
Kodii
Sir Bugsy
Iainuki (just played)
greggo (UP)
LKendter (on deck)
grangerm
Kodii
Sir Bugsy
Iainuki (just played)
Kodii
Ka ICE
Taking a look at the save...:
Moscow should work that engineer specialist again. The next GS should be due in 16 turns.
The sign that says "City?" on the west side of our island should be moved one tile up. We can't settle that spot because it is two tiles away from Bangalore.
We are about 2/3s away from circumnavigation.
I really don't like Lahore. St. Pete's borders will expand in 21 turns, so perhaps we can flip it, given that Gandhi doesn't build any culture buildings.
At the current standings, the Buddhism block looks the largest at 22% and five civs. Victoria will convert to Taoism later, as she founded it, so the Buddhism block is actually currently four. Hinduism is next at 17% and has three civs. Christianity also has three civs. Overall, the Buddhism block has the strongest civs in it, besides Louis XIV, who founded Christianity and Mao, who we will destroy someday anyways.
Currently, Code of Laws will take 3 turns, Civil Service 11, Paper 8, Optics 7. Are we in favor of a Liberalism beeline to get Astronomy? Mao already has Optics, so watch out for him in circumnavigation. Not many people have Code of Laws, so going in this direction will provide nice trade fodder.
We have met all but 6 of our opponents: Hatty, Mansa, Monty, Roosevelt/Washington, Kublai/Genghis and Cyrus.
It was the Japanese who built the Colossus (in Kyoto).
Moscow should work that engineer specialist again. The next GS should be due in 16 turns.
The sign that says "City?" on the west side of our island should be moved one tile up. We can't settle that spot because it is two tiles away from Bangalore.
We are about 2/3s away from circumnavigation.
I really don't like Lahore. St. Pete's borders will expand in 21 turns, so perhaps we can flip it, given that Gandhi doesn't build any culture buildings.
At the current standings, the Buddhism block looks the largest at 22% and five civs. Victoria will convert to Taoism later, as she founded it, so the Buddhism block is actually currently four. Hinduism is next at 17% and has three civs. Christianity also has three civs. Overall, the Buddhism block has the strongest civs in it, besides Louis XIV, who founded Christianity and Mao, who we will destroy someday anyways.
Currently, Code of Laws will take 3 turns, Civil Service 11, Paper 8, Optics 7. Are we in favor of a Liberalism beeline to get Astronomy? Mao already has Optics, so watch out for him in circumnavigation. Not many people have Code of Laws, so going in this direction will provide nice trade fodder.
We have met all but 6 of our opponents: Hatty, Mansa, Monty, Roosevelt/Washington, Kublai/Genghis and Cyrus.
It was the Japanese who built the Colossus (in Kyoto).
You're right, this was my mistake. I knew there was something I wanted to check, but I just completely forgot.
That restriction doesn't apply to cities on separate landmasses. Honestly, I'm very skeptical we want to found any of those marginal cities until much later in the game: Gandhi has founded one of the better ones for us (note that we can chain irrigate those grasslands, so it will be a fishing village with gems and 2-3 food surplus depending on how many farms we want to build), and I think our resources would be better invested in building military to take cities in better positions away from our neighbors.
Kodii
Ka ICE
Ah, I actually never realized that. That makes sense, considering in the game I just started, Churchill founded London two tiles away from my Rome, separated by a narrow channel.
Kodii
Ka ICE
Though people probably busy this holiday, I think we still want to move along at a pretty good pace. The two people who have said they have pretty busy schedules through into the new year are Compromise and Iainuki. I think I need to start reinforcing the 24/48 rule. Remember that we have three months to play this. The first month is just about over. I think we've done about 1/3rd of the game, if not more, but we don't want to fall behind.
greggo, you have approximately two hours to say you've 'got it'. If you're busy then let us know and we'll skip you. If you're waiting for some discussion, tell us you've got it, and then we can be sure you're there. (I'll whip up a summary post)
Compromise (skip)
greggo (UP)
LKendter (on deck)
grangerm
Kodii
Sir Bugsy
Iainuki (just played)
EDIT: Its a bit last minute to be giving the 24 hour warning. greggo, I'll give you 24 hours from this post to give a got it.
greggo, you have approximately two hours to say you've 'got it'. If you're busy then let us know and we'll skip you. If you're waiting for some discussion, tell us you've got it, and then we can be sure you're there. (I'll whip up a summary post)
Compromise (skip)
greggo (UP)
LKendter (on deck)
grangerm
Kodii
Sir Bugsy
Iainuki (just played)
EDIT: Its a bit last minute to be giving the 24 hour warning. greggo, I'll give you 24 hours from this post to give a got it.
Kodii
Ka ICE
SUMMARY POST #8
Compromise (skip)
greggo (UP)
LKendter (on deck)
grangerm
Kodii
Sir Bugsy
Iainuki (just played)
Diplomacy -
We have met all but 6 of our opponents, presumably: Hatty, Mansa, Monty, Roosevelt/Washington, Kublai/Genghis and Cyrus. It is too early to tell which religious block to side with. We may want to wage a war with Mao or Caesar soon. Alex is too small to pose a threat and we can probably take care of him later.
Technology
Take the Civil Service way to Liberalism:
Code of Laws Civil Service Paper Education Liberalism
(Research or trade for any useful or necessary techs along the way, such as Optics)
Settling -
White Dots = Fishing Villages
Builds -
Moscow
Harbor - Military?
St. Petersburg
Heroic Epic
Novrogod
Library - Military
Rostov
Lighthouse - ?
Yaroslavl'
Granary - Lighthouse - ?
Religion
Its too early to tell which religious block to side with.
Great People
The next GS is due in 16 turns. Well probably use him to lightbulb a tech. Dont forget to run that engineer specialist in Moscow.
Civics
Nothing for now.
Notes
I hope you all had a merry Christmas, and have a happy new year!
Compromise (skip)
greggo (UP)
LKendter (on deck)
grangerm
Kodii
Sir Bugsy
Iainuki (just played)
Diplomacy -
We have met all but 6 of our opponents, presumably: Hatty, Mansa, Monty, Roosevelt/Washington, Kublai/Genghis and Cyrus. It is too early to tell which religious block to side with. We may want to wage a war with Mao or Caesar soon. Alex is too small to pose a threat and we can probably take care of him later.
Technology
Take the Civil Service way to Liberalism:
Code of Laws Civil Service Paper Education Liberalism
(Research or trade for any useful or necessary techs along the way, such as Optics)
Settling -
White Dots = Fishing Villages
Builds -
Moscow
Harbor - Military?
St. Petersburg
Heroic Epic
Novrogod
Library - Military
Rostov
Lighthouse - ?
Yaroslavl'
Granary - Lighthouse - ?
Religion
Its too early to tell which religious block to side with.
Great People
The next GS is due in 16 turns. Well probably use him to lightbulb a tech. Dont forget to run that engineer specialist in Moscow.
Civics
Nothing for now.
Notes
I hope you all had a merry Christmas, and have a happy new year!
Kodii
Ka ICE
Anyone alive?
Kodii
Ka ICE
Lee, if you have time, do you want to grab the save? It has been over 48 hours since Iainuki played, and we haven't heard from greggo. This is assuming that enough discussion has gone into planning the next turnset.
EDIT: I don't think greggo has posted since page 24, so hes probably very occupied. He'll probably need time to catch up, so I think we should definately skip him this round.
EDIT: I don't think greggo has posted since page 24, so hes probably very occupied. He'll probably need time to catch up, so I think we should definately skip him this round.
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
Since our way west is blocked, I would make the tech detour to optics and build two caravels (one east and one west.) It is our best chance at getting the circumnavigation bonus. The AI are going to have just as much problem on the cirumnavigation as well.
Kodii
Ka ICE
Thats a good idea, considering that we need Optics to get Astronomy anyways. I'm worried that Mao can get to circumnavigation before we do, since he has Optics already.
Lurker's comment :
You can earn this bonus also by map trading or better map buying.
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2001
- Messages
- 20,060
530 AD
The standard courtesy for SG is to not leave any units left to move except perhaps a critical unit. I found 4 unmoved units that I can't see a justification why they aren't moved.
I dial up Huayna and give him machinery for monarchy, archery, horseback riding and $30. I realize that archery wastes the tech limit, but with the number of civs I hope the tech cap won't matter. We do need archery for longbows at some point.
Frederick is such a loser that I demand $10, and get it. I forced Alexander to give us $120.
I hire our engineer back in Moscow. We need to keep that going all of the time if we expect to ever get another GE. I give Novgorod the fish back to grow another size and get more water income. I whip the lighthouse in Rostov as it is working a 1 food tile. I will put the overflow into a harbor for the trade route boast.
(IT) Caesar demands the $120 I got from Alexander. I don't want to annoy him for something so small, so I cave.
545 AD
(IT) I ignore Spain's request to stop trading with France.
560 AD
I meet one of the last civs - crazy Monty. He has *9* ivory, but way behind in tech.
(IT) Code of laws has been researched. The next target is optics to get some caravels out.
575 AD
(IT) I refuse Alexander's demand for machinery.
590 AD
(IT) I refuse Izzy's request to become Buddhist.
Saladin's cancels open borders.
605 AD
I don't want to delay the National Epic to long, so I give the fish back to St. Pete to speed up whipping ability.
(IT) We have first contact with Persia. I sign open borders, but once again no possible tech trades.
620 AD
(IT) I accept Rome's offer for open borders. I sell him Monotheism for his $200.
Huayna is becoming our border, so I accept is offer of dye for fish. We need some friends out there.
Alexander cancels open borders.
650 AD
(IT) I refuse Persia's request to change religions.
Rostov starts a Monastery. It will be worth 3 beakers, and we can add 10 more beakers if we send missionaries to St. Pete and Moscow.
695 AD
(IT) Victoria cancels open borders.
=======================
Summary:
1) Moscow - after the spear I would like a caravel.
2) St. Petersburg is close to whipping. After the NE is complete, the next build isn't real clear. My guess is a courthouse anticipating future growth.
3) Novgorod - continue on military and / or explorers.
4) Rostov - 2 missionaries to let our high science cities build a monastery.
5) Yaroslavl - barracks, ships and military.
6) Send the first caravel north of India to try to get the navigation bonus, and find map a new area of the world.
7) We only need 9 techs for the UN. Our problem with backdoor domination will be territory IHMO. We should try to build more galleys to make invasions a viable option.
8) While I checked every turn, tech trading was a dud for the most part.
9) With our empire size, I vote for bureaucracy when civil service completes.
The standard courtesy for SG is to not leave any units left to move except perhaps a critical unit. I found 4 unmoved units that I can't see a justification why they aren't moved.
I dial up Huayna and give him machinery for monarchy, archery, horseback riding and $30. I realize that archery wastes the tech limit, but with the number of civs I hope the tech cap won't matter. We do need archery for longbows at some point.
Frederick is such a loser that I demand $10, and get it. I forced Alexander to give us $120.
I hire our engineer back in Moscow. We need to keep that going all of the time if we expect to ever get another GE. I give Novgorod the fish back to grow another size and get more water income. I whip the lighthouse in Rostov as it is working a 1 food tile. I will put the overflow into a harbor for the trade route boast.
(IT) Caesar demands the $120 I got from Alexander. I don't want to annoy him for something so small, so I cave.
545 AD
(IT) I ignore Spain's request to stop trading with France.
560 AD
I meet one of the last civs - crazy Monty. He has *9* ivory, but way behind in tech.
(IT) Code of laws has been researched. The next target is optics to get some caravels out.
575 AD
(IT) I refuse Alexander's demand for machinery.
590 AD
(IT) I refuse Izzy's request to become Buddhist.
Saladin's cancels open borders.
605 AD
I don't want to delay the National Epic to long, so I give the fish back to St. Pete to speed up whipping ability.
(IT) We have first contact with Persia. I sign open borders, but once again no possible tech trades.
620 AD
(IT) I accept Rome's offer for open borders. I sell him Monotheism for his $200.
Huayna is becoming our border, so I accept is offer of dye for fish. We need some friends out there.
Alexander cancels open borders.
650 AD
(IT) I refuse Persia's request to change religions.
Rostov starts a Monastery. It will be worth 3 beakers, and we can add 10 more beakers if we send missionaries to St. Pete and Moscow.
695 AD
(IT) Victoria cancels open borders.
=======================
Summary:
1) Moscow - after the spear I would like a caravel.
2) St. Petersburg is close to whipping. After the NE is complete, the next build isn't real clear. My guess is a courthouse anticipating future growth.
3) Novgorod - continue on military and / or explorers.
4) Rostov - 2 missionaries to let our high science cities build a monastery.
5) Yaroslavl - barracks, ships and military.
6) Send the first caravel north of India to try to get the navigation bonus, and find map a new area of the world.
7) We only need 9 techs for the UN. Our problem with backdoor domination will be territory IHMO. We should try to build more galleys to make invasions a viable option.
8) While I checked every turn, tech trading was a dud for the most part.
9) With our empire size, I vote for bureaucracy when civil service completes.
Spoiler :
Kodii
Ka ICE
Lee is slowly giving us a crash course on SG etiquette.LKendter said:
Thanks for grabbing the save. Hopefully we can get some more discussion going and then the next person can play.
Compromise (skipped)
greggo (skipped)
LKendter (just played)
grangerm (UP)
Kodii (on deck)
Sir Bugsy
Iainuki
And for the record, the save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3//The_Real_Ms_Beyond_SG003_AD0725_01.Civ4SavedGame
EDIT: FYI: The GS is due in three turns. It will lightbulb Philosophy, which is necessary for Liberalism. Should we go with it or hold to use on Education?
That was my mistake. This is my first SG, so my etiquette is a little rough--I'm sorry.
My travel plans for New Year's just got canceled, so I will in fact be here and able to comment on this game this weekend, but I probably don't have much to say tonight.
I think we really need a coherent diplomatic plan before we move forward: ending up without any friends in the midgame would be a bad situation to be in.
Kodii
Ka ICE
I'm sorry that your plans were cancelled, I'm sure that you would have had more fun during your trip than helping us here.
I do agree, we need to find friends sooner than later. It seems that we have already begun befriending Huayna. Was he Buddhist? We may consider changing religions soon. We have met all but four civs: Hatty (who's borders we can see), Kublai/Genghis, Washington/Roosevelt and Mansa. I forgot to check what religions Cyrus and Monty had.
If we need tips on getting friendships, I'll copy the discussion from Rabid Dog into here.
I do agree, we need to find friends sooner than later. It seems that we have already begun befriending Huayna. Was he Buddhist? We may consider changing religions soon. We have met all but four civs: Hatty (who's borders we can see), Kublai/Genghis, Washington/Roosevelt and Mansa. I forgot to check what religions Cyrus and Monty had.
If we need tips on getting friendships, I'll copy the discussion from Rabid Dog into here.
I'm sorry that your plans were cancelled, I'm sure that you would have had more fun during your trip than helping us here.
Much as I like you people, yes, this was a fun trip that I'm sad couldn't happen. Oh well, c'est la vie.
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