SGOTM 03 - The Real Ms. Beyond

[Compromise]

I've downloaded the save and spent a lot of time looking through it. I've also scanned Iainuki's turnset report but feel like I need to look through it more carefully.

My initial thoughts are:

I'm starting to seriously doubt that we're going to get any AI votes. We've got a lot of wars to declare, and those will in all likelihood cause a few negative modifiers with our future friends. Already, it looks like some civs (Gandhi) are switching to Free Religion. That lowers our pool of possible positive points.

One possibility is a permanent alliance. (Is there something I'm missing? I can't seem to offer a defensive pact to anyone. Is that because we're at war right now?)

A possible permanent allowance is, of all things, with Huayna. He just declared a few turns ago on Hatty. She's leading the AIs in score by a fairly wide margin. Her cities look quite big. (Irritatingly, none of them is a canal city, so we're going to have to go around that huge island!) I don't know if that means we enjoy the benefits of the Great Lighthouse or not. I don't think I've ever formed a permanent alliance, so I'm not sure how it would help us or how a failed effort would hurt us.

A game question: since we are in free religion and we are tending to capture entire islands, why are we building any culture-generating buildings in cities with a religion? I know that a few cities have been built up by the AI and are good for commerce--e.g. Rome--but shouldn't the rest just be growing and pumping out troops?

I think we need another 400 pop points or so. It looks like there's roughly 150 on the Egypt, etc. island, about 90 on the the English/Indian, 90 for Japan. Monty has another 90 or so, but it's pretty spread out. A bunch of other cities are probably easy to take when we want them: American, German. Watch out for Monty stabbing us in the back if we take the whole Egypt, etc. island.

Hatty, Victoria and Toku are right up there with the leaders. I'm wondering if we need to take all of those big islands, then go for the little ones as needed to fill in the gaps. The AI seems to be doing a lot of trading and/or popping of great people and is doing quite well in tech. We may not yet be out of the kill-the-leaders-to-lower-the-overall-tech-rate stage.

We need to be aware that we may be giving cities back to Mao or Caesar to keep our land down. (That's one of the few reasons I can think of for accepting his peace-offer of Shandong.)

One last note: I may need a swap on this turnset. I seem to be burning a lot of time thinking about what we need to do next rather than doing it. If it becomes clear that I can or cannot play soon, I'll post.

 

[Iainuki]

I'm starting to seriously doubt that we're going to get any AI votes. We've got a lot of wars to declare, and those will in all likelihood cause a few negative modifiers with our future friends. Already, it looks like some civs (Gandhi) are switching to Free Religion. That lowers our pool of possible positive points.

I've pretty much doubted this from the beginning. The -4 penalty is brutal, and we didn't come up with a coherent plan early enough. (This is at least as much my fault as anyone else's.) We also had some bad luck with how the religions played out: there wasn't really any obvious choice for religion, and I kind of doubt adopting any of the ones we had would have helped us in the long run. In retrospect, I think what we should have done is focused on befriending AIs who have Representation as their favored civic: AIs won't switch out of their favored civic, and with MMS modifiers and avoidance of negative mods, we might have gotten some friends good enough to vote for us. We can consider applying this strategy now, but it will only help with Victoria. (Caesar would have been a great natural ally, but unfortunately, the game didn't work out that way.) A real handicap is the number of leaders who prefer Hereditary Rule, but there aren't even that many of them, and the rest of the leaders prefer civics that are both high-tech (Police State), awful, or both.

One possibility is a permanent alliance. (Is there something I'm missing? I can't seem to offer a defensive pact to anyone. Is that because we're at war right now?)

. . .

I don't know if that means we enjoy the benefits of the Great Lighthouse or not. I don't think I've ever formed a permanent alliance, so I'm not sure how it would help us or how a failed effort would hurt us.

Yes, you can't offer a defensive pact while at war. I think permanent alliances are right out: we'd need to be at peace for a long time, 40 turns or so, to build up the defensive pact, and I think that would scuttle our chances at fastest victory. Friends or no friends, we have to conquer to get the votes. Given the religious blocs, I don't think a diplomatic victory with less than 40% of the population would even be possible on our map: you'd accumulate too many negative modifiers from demands to cancel trades and fight wars.

As a sidenote, we would benefit from the Great Lighthouse; but it's not going to happen.

A game question: since we are in free religion and we are tending to capture entire islands, why are we building any culture-generating buildings in cities with a religion? I know that a few cities have been built up by the AI and are good for commerce--e.g. Rome--but shouldn't the rest just be growing and pumping out troops?

Thinking about it again, I was probably too aggressive with building culture-buildings. In particular, we should probably emphasize science-generating buildings (libraries and universities are both cheap for us) instead of theaters. There are some other reasons to promote culture in captured cities, though: we need 10% Russian culture to be able to draft units from them, which I'd prefer to do from just-conquered territories because the pop will regrow faster; and culture reduces motherland unhappiness, since we're usually leaving our enemies alive rather than killing them off. Theaters also give +1 happy from dyes, which we now have natively. In some places, we do need some culture to ward off encroachments from other AIs, such as down near Persia. Finally, practically the entire Chinese/Greek island has academies, so I really think we should make some effort to build up commerce there: our science rate is not really so good we can afford to neglect it, yet. Feel free to cancel some of the culture builds if you think they're unnecessary, or add some libraries/universities instead of theaters.

I think we need another 400 pop points or so. It looks like there's roughly 150 on the Egypt, etc. island, about 90 on the the English/Indian, 90 for Japan. Monty has another 90 or so, but it's pretty spread out. A bunch of other cities are probably easy to take when we want them: American, German. Watch out for Monty stabbing us in the back if we take the whole Egypt, etc. island.

Hatty, Victoria and Toku are right up there with the leaders. I'm wondering if we need to take all of those big islands, then go for the little ones as needed to fill in the gaps. The AI seems to be doing a lot of trading and/or popping of great people and is doing quite well in tech. We may not yet be out of the kill-the-leaders-to-lower-the-overall-tech-rate stage.

If there's one thing I want to avoid this game, it's fighting England. Redcoats are possibly the strongest unique unit in the game, because they dominate everything available at the same point in the tech tree. They own rifles, grenadiers, and cavalry (and cossacks!); the only unit we'll have that they don't get a bonus against is cannons, but that's 16 strength as a defender vs. 12 on attack, which is not a winning situation for us.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

I agree with Kodii's GP plan.

We need to go for Physics right now though. If Hatty has SciMeth, then we are in a race.

Hatty should also be our next enemy. The logistics of resupplying Egyptian based foces is much easier. It keeps our supply lines shorter and easier to defend.

We need to keep cranking out frigates. We can use them for coastal city bombardment and sea control. From here on out, a strong navy is not an option, it is a necessity.

 

[Kodii]

If Hatty is still at war with Huayna, then we could very well get a Permanent Alliance through military means.

PS: I still plan on getting some sort of summary post up, but as of now, I cannot find the time to sit down and write it up. Perhaps after Compromise's turnset? (Or if he needs to be skipped, Lee's turnset)

Updated Roster:

Compromise (UP/skip?)
LKendter (UP?)
grangerm (on deck)
Kodii
Sir Bugsy
Iainuki (just played)

Anyone know anything about greggo? Is he still part of our team or what?

 

[Compromise]

I'd like to swap turnsets with Lee, if that's okay. I should have some more time on Wednesday or Thursday to play.

Thanks for the specific comments, Iainuki. I hadn't known about the 10% culture for drafting and the 40-turn peace requirement for a permanent alliance. I think you're right: no permanent alliances for us.

I don't think there's really any way we were going to get very far in earning diplo votes in this game. Perhaps another team will get lucky or found a religion which everyone adopts, but that would have been a turn one decision (versus Spain on a lake, I think.) If any other team pulls off a lot of diplo votes from a situation like ours, I'll be happy to congratulate them.

I'm sort of wondering now if playing like Mansa--trade anything to anybody--would have enabled a rapid spaceship win. With Mao and Caesar right next door, I tend to doubt it.

Short term, here's what I propose: GE to Ironworks in Moscow. Run max engineers there. We should get another GE for the UN. (Maybe working mines is better though?). Implement Kodii's great age plan. (Maybe after our latest cities come out of revolt. Meanwhile, rush to Physics for the GS. Attack Hatty in the rear as Huayna attacks from the other side. Leave her two cities on that island north of her start.

If Huayna becomes Friendly to us as a result of battling Hatty, then he becomes our one true friend. Otherwise, we continue the assault and roll over him. (Note, Hatty and Huayna--as well as others--are likely to have cavalry either now or soon.) We might not need his cities north of Cuzco. Maybe that will give Monty someone to attack.

Then, I think we'll have to pick a new target. I hate leaving a backside exposed to Monty, but his land isn't very good. Mansa then Toku then Isabella would be a decent arc. (Toku might pillage Spain a bit too much though. Or maybe it will be ripe for biology farms.) Despite Iainuki's reasonable fear of redcoats, I think veteran forces returning from the Japanese/Spanish front combined with fresh troops from our core might make for some relatively easy population gain.

Okay, that might be it for my meaningful contributions for a bit. LK, if you can't play, let me know and I'll see if I can free up some time. But I sure won't be able to advance things like Iainuki has!

 

[Kodii]

Don't forget that a permanent alliance can be earned through 40 turns of war together... though the number may differ on epic speed. If we can get Huayna to Friendly, we may consider bringing him into every war with us until we can sign a permanent alliance.

Actually, scratch all that. I don't think we can sign a permanent alliance, since we are first in score.

Roster for this round:

LKendter (UP)
Compromise (on deck)
grangerm
Kodii
Sir Bugsy
Iainuki

 

[Iainuki]

Question: if we're going to seek a permanent alliance with someone, why not consider Victoria? The civic bonus will make it much easier to get her to Friendly, and IIRC, she's one of the easier AIs to get to good relations. It would guarantee we'd never have to face redcoats, and we'd to get mooch off her amazing tech rate. The major problem would be getting her into a war--how possible would this be?

 

[Kodii]

Are we allowed to sign permanent alliances if we are first in score? I thought I read somewhere that you couldn't. If that is true, then we shouldn't be spending time wondering who to seek a permanent alliance with.

 

[Compromise]

I thought it was something like: No AI will enter into a permanent alliance if they are first in score. But you could be right.

Regardless, I think the key point is that while working on a permanent alliance, we'd have to not be at war for 40 turns. I suspect that we're either now or soon at the point where we could take over any civ in the game--and get its population directly--within 40 turns. So, it doesn't save us anything. With at least Mao and Caesar to gift (overwhipped, foodless) cities back to, we won't cross the domination threshold unless we're careless.

 

[Tatran]

Lurker's comment :

What do you want to achieve by signing a permanent alliance
with a friendly AI ? They'll vote for you anyway.
Remember, if you can sign a permanent alliance the AIs can too.
Tokugawa, Alexander and (not in the game) Napoleon will never join
a permanent alliance. I'm sure about Tokugawa, the other 2 I've never
tested.
You need 40 turns, not non-stop, a defensive pact or sharing a war to
sign a permanent alliance.

 

[LKendter]

I'd like to swap turnsets with Lee, if that's okay. I should have some more time on Wednesday or Thursday to play.

Swapping WON'T work for me. My Civ PC didn't have internet connectivity last night, and I don't know about tonight yet. I am now up in BOTH of my LK series games, so there is simply no way for me to play tonight.

 

[Compromise]

Okay, I'll see if I can play tonight or tomorrow. And thanks for the comments, Tatran. I guess the only reason to try for the permanent alliance--which I don't think is really reasonable--would be to get the number 2 civ on our team instead of having to conquer them or compete with them in the election.

Also, I think you (Tatran) had mentioned selecting the great people whom you want to use for a great age together when starting the age, but I know from experience that at least in v1.52, that didn't work. The people consumed were still chosen at random (seemingly) from throughout my empire.

 

[Iainuki]

The 40-turn peace requirement for a permanent alliance. I think you're right: no permanent alliances for us.

As Kodii notes, I forgot about the MMS method. Still, it is a long time.

We should get another GE for the UN. (Maybe working mines is better though?).

An engineer is +2 production, +3 science, +3 engineer points; a mine is only +1 food, +3 production or +4 production. Honestly, I think it's time we respecialize Moscow, or if not now, soon. With some Biology farms, we can support engineers while still running the mines. I'm actually inclined to windmill over the non-gem mines, since the extra food will let us run more engineers will still working the hill tiles, and a windmill with Replaceable Parts is only one less hammer than a mine. We also want watermills: with Electricity, that's only three less commerce than a town, and the extra food and production will be very nice.

Otherwise, we continue the assault and roll over him. (Note, Hatty and Huayna--as well as others--are likely to have cavalry either now or soon.) We might not need his cities north of Cuzco. Maybe that will give Monty someone to attack.

Our enemies having cavalry doesn't bother me: cossacks own them six ways from Tuesday. As long as we cover our stacks, we'll be fine.

Then, I think we'll have to pick a new target. I hate leaving a backside exposed to Monty, but his land isn't very good. Mansa then Toku then Isabella would be a decent arc. (Toku might pillage Spain a bit too much though. Or maybe it will be ripe for biology farms.) Despite Iainuki's reasonable fear of redcoats, I think veteran forces returning from the Japanese/Spanish front combined with fresh troops from our core might make for some relatively easy population gain.

I don't think Monte's tech rate is good enough to be a serious threat. Cossacks kill everything until rifles. I don't doubt that we can kill Victoria: it's a matter of how many units we lose in the process. However, that's a ways off, so we'll want to look at the situation then.

 

[Compromise]

Good points, Iainuki. Yes, I doubt if we'll have any wars or series of mutual wars that will last 40T, so I don't see any permanent alliances for us.

I will be able to play on Wednesday. If anyone wants to sneak a turnset in before then, post and I'll grab the new save before playing.

I see the plan as: heal, regenerate, plan for Hatty, rework Moscow and specialize some formerly Chinese cities.

 

[Kodii]

Perhaps as a bit of encouragement, if you take a look at the graph here, you'll notice that our power compared to all the other teams has taken a nice turn

 

[Sir Bugsy]

If you look at the culture graph, the Smurfs got a great artist and used him for 4K in a city. sounds like to me in this type of game.

 

[Iainuki]

Perhaps as a bit of encouragement, if you take a look at the graph here, you'll notice that our power compared to all the other teams has taken a nice turn

That's interesting. In my experience, power is a good proxy for technology. It looks like our delayed conquest may have bought us some lead in the technology race, which is at least hopeful.

Well, worst-case, at least the Real Ms. Beyond should avoid the Wooden Spoon this time .

 

[Iainuki]

I haven't had a chance today to give some serious advice, so I'll say two brief things. First, let's not delay the war with Hatty any longer than absolutely necessary. Our cossacks munch medieval units pretty hard, so we don't need overwhelming preparation as long as we can keep the cossacks coming. Second, don't be too eager to respecialize Moscow: we don't have the techs to make the new improvements awesome quite yet, and there's a lot of work to be done in China.

 

[LKendter]

Okay, I'll see if I can play tonight or tomorrow.

Are you playing anytime soon? My internet connection appears to be stable again (for now...) and I can follow up easily.

 

[Compromise]

LK, why don't you take it when you can. We'll just swap this turnset, and I'll play a while after you play.