I think 15 turns will take you to right after the worker is whipped. Will you feel all right about stopping there and passing to our next player, so we can talk about directions? It will also give us a better feel for how soon we need to get started on our various projects. Tentatively, after the worker whip I think we need to put hammers into a fog-busting warrior or an exploring workboat so we can grow, but I'm not sure. I'd lean towards a warrior because I just don't think we have enough time to finish an exploring workboat between building the Pyramids and settling our island.
SGOTM 03 - The Real Ms. Beyond
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Compromise
Emperor
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Also, after the lion encounter (assuming victory and health), think about getting the warrior on the western front. The scout can bust from SE of the cows, the warrior from N of the cows. That way, the warrior will bear the brunt of all future barb attacks (which will spawn from the west).
I lean toward 3rd warrior before workboat.
I lean toward 3rd warrior before workboat.
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If we want really want the Pyramids we need to sacrifice somewhere. On water maps, we have a really risk of an isolated civ starting a wonder very early. If that civ has stone, then we are screwed if we delay. I vote against any exploring units from the capitol. I want the absolute bare minimum (includes a settler) before starting the Pyramids.
Here's the set!
3070 (Inherited T0)
Revolt to slavery.
IBT Our warrior handily defeats the lion, which had a 3.6% chance to win. I would have
if we had lost. Hinduism is founded someplace far far away.
3040 (T1)
Workboat is
!
3010 (T2)
Workboat is completed and moved to the clams. Start work on a warrior.
2980 (T3)
Clam is hooked up and worked by the city. I believe the extra point of commerce here sped up masonry by a turn.
2950 - 2740 (T4-11)
We grow to 3 at 2860 BC
2710 (T12)
Grow to size 4 and get a
. Unfortunately, our worker needs a turn of production before he can be whipped.
2680 (T13)
Masonry is completed, and I start researching those round things, since there aren't any Jews around yet to carry the stones for our pyramids.
Get those faces out into the fields! Maybe a hard day's work will cheer you up!
Also, we now have next door neighbors:
2650 (T14)
Worker is sent to the stone, and I continue working on the warrior.
2620 (T15)
The warrior is done, and fortifies in place. Production set to pyramids, but no turns have been invested, so it can be changed. The worker has already started the quarry, which will take 9 turns.
Moscow:
The save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3//The_Real_Ms_Beyond_SG003_BC2620_01.Civ4SavedGame
3070 (Inherited T0)
Revolt to slavery.
IBT Our warrior handily defeats the lion, which had a 3.6% chance to win. I would have
if we had lost. Hinduism is founded someplace far far away.3040 (T1)
Workboat is
!3010 (T2)
Workboat is completed and moved to the clams. Start work on a warrior.
2980 (T3)
Clam is hooked up and worked by the city. I believe the extra point of commerce here sped up masonry by a turn.
2950 - 2740 (T4-11)
We grow to 3 at 2860 BC2710 (T12)
Grow to size 4 and get a
. Unfortunately, our worker needs a turn of production before he can be whipped.2680 (T13)
Masonry is completed, and I start researching those round things, since there aren't any Jews around yet to carry the stones for our pyramids.
Get those
faces out into the fields! Maybe a hard day's work will cheer you up! Also, we now have next door neighbors:
2650 (T14)
Worker is sent to the stone, and I continue working on the warrior.
2620 (T15)
The warrior is done, and fortifies in place. Production set to pyramids, but no turns have been invested, so it can be changed. The worker has already started the quarry, which will take 9 turns.
Moscow:
The save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm3//The_Real_Ms_Beyond_SG003_BC2620_01.Civ4SavedGame
Compromise
Emperor
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Very nice! I'm incommunicado for several hours, maybe till tomorrow. But that turnset looks great. I say work pyramids only with stone, completeable warriors until then.
Kodii
Ka ICE
Thats true. I'll look to making another updated summary post later tonight. Looks like we're headed in a good direction! Good work greggo 
EDIT: If Alex placed Sparta THERE... then I'm guessing there isn't much room left on that island. I'm getting figity, and I want to found the copper city as soon as we can...
EDIT: If Alex placed Sparta THERE... then I'm guessing there isn't much room left on that island. I'm getting figity, and I want to found the copper city as soon as we can...
Kodii
Ka ICE
SUMMARY POST #2
Compromise
greggo (just played)
LKendter (UP)
grangerm (on deck)
Kodii
Sir Bugsy
Iainuki
Diplomacy -
Alexander founded Sparta below the stone on the southeastern island. Im afraid that theyll run out of room, head for Sailing and settle on our island, especially since Alex and Mao are on the same island
Technology
Wheel - Animal Husbandry - ? (Pottery, Mysticism, Iron Working...)
Settling -
Red Dot - First Priority
Blue Dot - Second Priority
Green Dot - Third Priority
White Dots - Fishing Villages
Builds -
MOSCOW
Warrior (to grow), Settler (whip), Pyramids (if stone connected;chop)
ST. PETERSBURG
Worker
Religion
Let it spread to us.
Great People
The red dot will be our GP farm, but first we need to use the red dot to build workers and/or settlers.
Civics
Were in Slavery right now. Once the Pyramids finish, we probably want to switch to Representation.
Fogbusting -
Notes -
Remember, barbs are set as Standard. That makes fogbusting warriors less urgent.
Compromise
greggo (just played)
LKendter (UP)
grangerm (on deck)
Kodii
Sir Bugsy
Iainuki
Diplomacy -
Alexander founded Sparta below the stone on the southeastern island. Im afraid that theyll run out of room, head for Sailing and settle on our island, especially since Alex and Mao are on the same island
Technology
Wheel - Animal Husbandry - ? (Pottery, Mysticism, Iron Working...)
Settling -
Red Dot - First Priority
Blue Dot - Second Priority
Green Dot - Third Priority
White Dots - Fishing Villages
Builds -
MOSCOW
Warrior (to grow), Settler (whip), Pyramids (if stone connected;chop)
ST. PETERSBURG
Worker
Religion
Let it spread to us.
Great People
The red dot will be our GP farm, but first we need to use the red dot to build workers and/or settlers.
Civics
Were in Slavery right now. Once the Pyramids finish, we probably want to switch to Representation.
Fogbusting -
Compromise said:The following is one such sentry map that maximizes the likelihood that we'd see passing galleys are units on other islands:
Notes -
Remember, barbs are set as Standard. That makes fogbusting warriors less urgent.
Kodii
Ka ICE
Once again, the hot topic of discussion is: BUILD ORDER!
I really want to get a settler out before we finish the Pyramids. LKendter does too. What does everybody else think?
I'm leaning towards this:
Warrior (to grow) - Settler (whip) - Pyramids
Certainly by the time the settler finishes, the stone will be connected. If not, we can begin the second worker.
Furthermore, the second city will act as a fogbuster, and our scout and warrior can move further to the west.
I really want to get a settler out before we finish the Pyramids. LKendter does too. What does everybody else think?
I'm leaning towards this:
Warrior (to grow) - Settler (whip) - Pyramids
Certainly by the time the settler finishes, the stone will be connected. If not, we can begin the second worker.
Furthermore, the second city will act as a fogbuster, and our scout and warrior can move further to the west.
That is what I meant.. it is buildt into the HOFmod.. you just need to enable it..
I posted a picture of where to do that in this post:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4829755&postcount=146
Me too. We need to work out a plan to get those settlers out ASAP while still completing the Pyramids. I'll note that it will take a settler at 11 turns to get from Moscow to the copper site without any more roads than we already have planned. We need more calculations than that, though!
Kodii
Ka ICE
Just as a heads up, I'll be away all day tomorrow, so I won't be able to comment then. Good luck to Lee if he gets the chance to play the next turnset.
Looks like the footballguys are going for the fastest victory... if you know what I mean
Looks like the footballguys are going for the fastest victory... if you know what I mean
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
So we need settlers and the Pyramids. What is the plan to do that in our present state?
Kodii
Ka ICE
After looking at the fogbusting screeny again, I think we should send a warrior to that plains hill by the copper. That hill alone reveals a LOT of fog on the east side.
A warrior will take six turns to complete. Four turns until size 3. We can then send that warrior to that fogbusting hill. Then, we can build a settler, and whip it. I'm leaning towards settling the blue dot first. The AIs might not get Sailing for a while, but I'm very paranoid. The AI is less likely to found near our red dot. They might send something to the northern island. The problem with this, of course, would be that the blue dot would be utterly productionless.
I think I would prefer getting a settler out after the warrior, and before the Pyramids. Then, while building the Pyramids, we get another settler out somehow, either by switch back and forth between Pyramids and settler, or making the second city build it.... ah, the paranoia is killing me
A warrior will take six turns to complete. Four turns until size 3. We can then send that warrior to that fogbusting hill. Then, we can build a settler, and whip it. I'm leaning towards settling the blue dot first. The AIs might not get Sailing for a while, but I'm very paranoid. The AI is less likely to found near our red dot. They might send something to the northern island. The problem with this, of course, would be that the blue dot would be utterly productionless.
I think I would prefer getting a settler out after the warrior, and before the Pyramids. Then, while building the Pyramids, we get another settler out somehow, either by switch back and forth between Pyramids and settler, or making the second city build it.... ah, the paranoia is killing me
Compromise
Emperor
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I have worked out a nice happycap=5 "whip cycle". Here's how it works: We always have 1 unhappy guy from whipping. We always try to stay at pop 4. We are always working the fish, the stone quarry, a grass hill mine and the plains hill mine (if pop<4 or need to get to size>5 for big whipping, use the clams instead of the plains hill mine for faster growth).
Whip cycle Edit: this is wrong, I forgot about the 2 food from the city, so we'll grow too quickly here. I'm too sleepy to fix it now.
Turn 0, we are at size 4, but will grow to size 5 next turn. We have one last turn of whip anger. Here, we switch to a whippable item (e.g. warrior or workboat).
On turn 1, we are at size 5 with 0-2 food in the granary. Whip anger has just ended, so we're ready to whip again. We whip our item and incur more whip anger. Our pop drops from 5 to 4 as does our happy cap.
Turns 2-15, we work the fish, quarry, grass and plains hill mines and earn exactly 42 food. Turn 15 is the same as turn 0 and will add the last 3 food needed to grow to size 5, and the cycle repeats. Remember to switch the build on turn 15.
With a granary, we can get better return on our resources by working the clams more often, but in practice when we have lots of low-hammer things we need to build, that's tough to do.
No-whip "cycle" (steady state)
If we just want to maximize production (e.g. when building the pyramids) and don't want to do any whipping/overflow micromanaging, we stay at zero whip anger, happycap=5 and work the fish, the quarry and all 3 hill mines for a food-neutral, no-whip steady state. While less efficient in total hammer production, it is the fastest way we can get pure hammers into a big project.
Whip cycle Edit: this is wrong, I forgot about the 2 food from the city, so we'll grow too quickly here. I'm too sleepy to fix it now.
Turn 0, we are at size 4, but will grow to size 5 next turn. We have one last turn of whip anger. Here, we switch to a whippable item (e.g. warrior or workboat).
On turn 1, we are at size 5 with 0-2 food in the granary. Whip anger has just ended, so we're ready to whip again. We whip our item and incur more whip anger. Our pop drops from 5 to 4 as does our happy cap.
Turns 2-15, we work the fish, quarry, grass and plains hill mines and earn exactly 42 food. Turn 15 is the same as turn 0 and will add the last 3 food needed to grow to size 5, and the cycle repeats. Remember to switch the build on turn 15.
With a granary, we can get better return on our resources by working the clams more often, but in practice when we have lots of low-hammer things we need to build, that's tough to do.
No-whip "cycle" (steady state)
If we just want to maximize production (e.g. when building the pyramids) and don't want to do any whipping/overflow micromanaging, we stay at zero whip anger, happycap=5 and work the fish, the quarry and all 3 hill mines for a food-neutral, no-whip steady state. While less efficient in total hammer production, it is the fastest way we can get pure hammers into a big project.
Compromise
Emperor
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On build order.
Okay, here's my (as always subject to discussion/revision) total minimum build list for the next few turnsets:
3 settlers, 3+ warriors, 1 Pyramids, 1 granary.
I think we need the warriors to go with the settlers to protect them from barbs. The barbs will (IIRC) be warriors and archers on turn 50 which is only 4 turns away now.
Assume we only build the pyramids while stone is connected, then our total hammer needs are:
Settlers (3x150), Warriors (3x22), Pyramids (338=675/2), Granary (45=90/2)
Using the steady-state return of 15hpt (see previous post), that's about 60 turns of production. (We don't have the mines in place yet to get that pure steady-state, but any whipping we do is more efficient, so this is a decent rough guess.)
Note that forests are about 30H or so knock off about 2 turns each. We have 7 in range, but won't be able to chop all for any one project, I suspect.
We could add a worker in here for 90H more--and I used to favor that--but I'm leaning toward wanting these things faster.
Note that 60 turns is about 850BC(?). I think we want the pyramids finished sooner, so I recommend putting off 2 settlers (10 turns each) until the end.
With this list, it's a bit easier to just rearrange the units into a suitable build order. This depends on priority. My priority list (highest first) is: granary since it doubles the value of our food, fogbust since archers are around, a settler to the copper site since that's the most likely AI landing spot, the pyramids, and the other settlers (who can be whipped if an AI settler party is spotted).
Build warrior(s) until we can build a granary. Put a turn into the granary and whip it to completion. Overflow into warrior (or pyramids if stone is connected) and grow until size 6 (ignore any unhappy citizens). Switch to settler and whip it (3pop=132 of 150 required). (But don't whip unless previous whip anger has abated.
Now, overflow into pyramids (stone should be hooked up by now). The turn before whip anger abates, switch to a warrior. Next turn, whip it putting overflow into pyramids. Try to stay at size 4 for all of this. (We could figure out this micro, or the player can wing it.)
Basically, after completing the granary and the settler, build the pyramids to allow whip anger to heal. Whip warriors when whip anger abates and use overflow for more pyramids (how true to history
). Repeat. Whip the pyramids as soon as we can (maybe 3 turns from completion). Build last 2 settlers at the end (might need to build a library or a boat or something to build up population first, but maybe not).
On settlers: I don't think settling the cities is a priority until after pyramids and AH. I think being able to settle the cities instantly so that the AI doesn't screw up our dotmap is a high priority.
Key Points:
Try to have chops go to pyramids.
Try not to have unhappy citizens unless building up pop for a big whipping (settler or pyramid finale).
Move warriors into fogbusting positions (warning: my map is not optimized for the dispersal; it's only best if all 6 busters are available)
Move settler into blue dot position but don't found unless AI threatens to grab spot. (Since that's 11 turns away, I give it priority.)
Maybe build another settler before pyramids complete and move to green dot (secondmost vulnerable spot).
We probably don't need more than 5 total warrior plus replacements for any who die. If we get more, whip workboats or galleys instead of warriors to use up whip anger.
Okay, here's my (as always subject to discussion/revision) total minimum build list for the next few turnsets:
3 settlers, 3+ warriors, 1 Pyramids, 1 granary.
I think we need the warriors to go with the settlers to protect them from barbs. The barbs will (IIRC) be warriors and archers on turn 50 which is only 4 turns away now.
Assume we only build the pyramids while stone is connected, then our total hammer needs are:
Settlers (3x150), Warriors (3x22), Pyramids (338=675/2), Granary (45=90/2)
Using the steady-state return of 15hpt (see previous post), that's about 60 turns of production. (We don't have the mines in place yet to get that pure steady-state, but any whipping we do is more efficient, so this is a decent rough guess.)
Note that forests are about 30H or so knock off about 2 turns each. We have 7 in range, but won't be able to chop all for any one project, I suspect.
We could add a worker in here for 90H more--and I used to favor that--but I'm leaning toward wanting these things faster.
Note that 60 turns is about 850BC(?). I think we want the pyramids finished sooner, so I recommend putting off 2 settlers (10 turns each) until the end.
With this list, it's a bit easier to just rearrange the units into a suitable build order. This depends on priority. My priority list (highest first) is: granary since it doubles the value of our food, fogbust since archers are around, a settler to the copper site since that's the most likely AI landing spot, the pyramids, and the other settlers (who can be whipped if an AI settler party is spotted).
Build warrior(s) until we can build a granary. Put a turn into the granary and whip it to completion. Overflow into warrior (or pyramids if stone is connected) and grow until size 6 (ignore any unhappy citizens). Switch to settler and whip it (3pop=132 of 150 required). (But don't whip unless previous whip anger has abated.
Now, overflow into pyramids (stone should be hooked up by now). The turn before whip anger abates, switch to a warrior. Next turn, whip it putting overflow into pyramids. Try to stay at size 4 for all of this. (We could figure out this micro, or the player can wing it.)
Basically, after completing the granary and the settler, build the pyramids to allow whip anger to heal. Whip warriors when whip anger abates and use overflow for more pyramids (how true to history
). Repeat. Whip the pyramids as soon as we can (maybe 3 turns from completion). Build last 2 settlers at the end (might need to build a library or a boat or something to build up population first, but maybe not). On settlers: I don't think settling the cities is a priority until after pyramids and AH. I think being able to settle the cities instantly so that the AI doesn't screw up our dotmap is a high priority.
Key Points:
Try to have chops go to pyramids.
Try not to have unhappy citizens unless building up pop for a big whipping (settler or pyramid finale).
Move warriors into fogbusting positions (warning: my map is not optimized for the dispersal; it's only best if all 6 busters are available)
Move settler into blue dot position but don't found unless AI threatens to grab spot. (Since that's 11 turns away, I give it priority.)
Maybe build another settler before pyramids complete and move to green dot (secondmost vulnerable spot).
We probably don't need more than 5 total warrior plus replacements for any who die. If we get more, whip workboats or galleys instead of warriors to use up whip anger.
I think it's time to discuss an unpleasant fact of game-of-the-month-style play. There are what, around ten teams participating in this event? The winner is likely going to be the team that chooses a good high variance strategy and gets lucky. If everyone else picks a strategy that's amazing if it works, but worthless if it doesn't, you expect one of those teams to succeed and rocket ahead of the others, and anyone who plays a more conservative strategy.
I think the question for our team is: how much risk do we want to take on? Do we want to go for the gold, or play conservatively and guarantee a decent finish but know that some team with less risk aversion will probalby beat us? This also depends on what we estimate the other teams will do,
In our case, I think the defining risk question is how much we're willing to delay the Pyramids to ensure those four cities get built. Losing the Pyramids would be a huge blow that would probably drop us out of medal contention. Having AIs disrupt our dotmap is less severe, though still painful. How much chance of losing the former are we willing to reduce the latter?
I don't know what my feelings are on this yet. I hope to do some analysis on settlers and the Pyramids tomorrow, but right now I don't have the brain for it.
It looks like Kodii and Compromise will both not be saying much tomorrow. I'll miss their contributions, and if we can't come up with an obvious good plan, I'd support delaying until they can comment. Lee, how do you feel about that? These early turns are critical, and there's no prize for being the first team to finish in the real world. Later on, when we're overruning the world with cossacks to get backdoor domination, I expect we'll be able to play with much less deliberation.
I think the question for our team is: how much risk do we want to take on? Do we want to go for the gold, or play conservatively and guarantee a decent finish but know that some team with less risk aversion will probalby beat us? This also depends on what we estimate the other teams will do,
In our case, I think the defining risk question is how much we're willing to delay the Pyramids to ensure those four cities get built. Losing the Pyramids would be a huge blow that would probably drop us out of medal contention. Having AIs disrupt our dotmap is less severe, though still painful. How much chance of losing the former are we willing to reduce the latter?
I don't know what my feelings are on this yet. I hope to do some analysis on settlers and the Pyramids tomorrow, but right now I don't have the brain for it.
It looks like Kodii and Compromise will both not be saying much tomorrow. I'll miss their contributions, and if we can't come up with an obvious good plan, I'd support delaying until they can comment. Lee, how do you feel about that? These early turns are critical, and there's no prize for being the first team to finish in the real world. Later on, when we're overruning the world with cossacks to get backdoor domination, I expect we'll be able to play with much less deliberation.
Compromise
Emperor
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I probably won't be able to post much tomorrow. I assume we're at about 10 turns per set now. If LK feels like pressing ahead, I think he's got enough of my input to go on. But if more discussion is needed and the turnset is delayed, that's great in my book too.
Edit: I crossposted with Iainuki. I agree with everything he's said. And I lean toward Lee holding off a bit. If the weekend is best for him, though, then in the next 10 turns he'll probably just be hooking up stone, maybe getting a mine built, and growing the city while recovering from whip anger, so it's not a lot.
Probably the best way to estimate when the pyramids will fall is to run some test games (just sit and build warriors after clicking research on future tech) and see what happens. That doesn't sound like oodles of fun to me, but I might be able to do such a game (or two) on Monday.
Edit 2: I've edited my previous 2 posts quite a bit since their first posting (especially the first), so if you happened to read my no-granary logic, that's been replaced with some production cycle suggestions.
Edit: I crossposted with Iainuki. I agree with everything he's said. And I lean toward Lee holding off a bit. If the weekend is best for him, though, then in the next 10 turns he'll probably just be hooking up stone, maybe getting a mine built, and growing the city while recovering from whip anger, so it's not a lot.
Probably the best way to estimate when the pyramids will fall is to run some test games (just sit and build warriors after clicking research on future tech) and see what happens. That doesn't sound like oodles of fun to me, but I might be able to do such a game (or two) on Monday.
Edit 2: I've edited my previous 2 posts quite a bit since their first posting (especially the first), so if you happened to read my no-granary logic, that's been replaced with some production cycle suggestions.
Compromise
Emperor
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Revised whipping strategy: Formulated as a modifiable recipe:
1) Don't whip when we have any whip anger.
2) On the turn before whip anger ends, switch production to something that will be whippable on the next turn.
3) On the turn that whip anger ends, whip. Apply the overflow to the pyramids (or later any project where the city will grow)
4) Work these tiles (in decreasing preference order): fish, clams, stone, grass hill mine, grass hill mine, plains hill mine, floodplains
That's it! The should maximize coversion of food to hammers and our total hammer output. Note that the steady-state process (from a couple posts ago) is still best for finishing a single big project quickly.
(This tactic maximizes production, not commerce.)
I'm off for the day. If Lee plays, good luck!
1) Don't whip when we have any whip anger.
2) On the turn before whip anger ends, switch production to something that will be whippable on the next turn.
3) On the turn that whip anger ends, whip. Apply the overflow to the pyramids (or later any project where the city will grow)
4) Work these tiles (in decreasing preference order): fish, clams, stone, grass hill mine, grass hill mine, plains hill mine, floodplains
That's it! The should maximize coversion of food to hammers and our total hammer output. Note that the steady-state process (from a couple posts ago) is still best for finishing a single big project quickly.
(This tactic maximizes production, not commerce.)
I'm off for the day. If Lee plays, good luck!
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