SGOTM 03 - The Real Ms. Beyond
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Kodii
Ka ICE
There IS a way to get settlers and Pyramids out at the same time, using Compromise's whip strategy. When whip anger subsides, we can put some production into a settler, then whip it, then return to the Pyramids. That way, we can found the blue dot first, and the red dot not long after that. Of course, test games are required. I'm leaving now, see you guys in about 10 hours 
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
Warning: Newbie statement coming.
Facts the way I understand them:
1. Pyramids are critical.
2. Getting Red and blue dot cities are critical.
How about we get a settler out for red dot then use red dot to produce the settlers for Blue then green dot. Then the capitol can concentrate on the Pyramids.
Facts the way I understand them:
1. Pyramids are critical.
2. Getting Red and blue dot cities are critical.
How about we get a settler out for red dot then use red dot to produce the settlers for Blue then green dot. Then the capitol can concentrate on the Pyramids.
Is Pennsylavania not on Eastern Standard Time?
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PA is on EST, but I am working out of town in TN. TN breaks into Central Standard Time along the western part. Not sure of the exact break line, but since I am almost at the Mississippi River...
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That is exactly my thought process. Get city #2 asap, and go from there.
Compromise
Emperor
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I found a brief moment to post.
I'm warming to the idea of settling red dot asap. (Sometimes I'm slow.) It can work the unimproved cows from the start and generate a worker in 23T (38T settler is probably too slow to justify the loss of commerce that maintaining the city will incur.)
Then, I'm torn between building the settler or a granary first. The granary effectively makes each food worth 1.5F in the capital; the settler lets us start training a worker/settler while the capital is otherwise occupied. I guess the granary is worth about 2.5 or 3.5 food per turn (50% of +5F or +7F). Whereas a new city at red dot is worth 4 F+H per turn.
Note that we have to get to size 6 to whip the settler. We could work floodplains to expedite. That should bring our whip anger to zero again. The granary requires only a 1-pop whip though, so we could get the earlier return sooner.
I guess it'll be a judgment call for the turnset player. I lean toward the granary first because of the earlier return and the fact that the city will incur a research/commerce cost to us.
Also, the red dot city (Do we want to give it a clever name or use the next name on the Russian list?) can reduce our sentry needs by 1, meaning we'd need 5 (of which we have 2 now, not counting the capital's MP).
Here's a dotmap of where our sentries could go if we settle at red dot and get another capital border expansion:
The dots are city-covered, the think cyan lines originate from the sentry positions. Note that our green-dot city location is a sentry point too although we obviously don't want to move to that position without preceding escort.
I made a small mistake (at least one) in a previous post. The granary will cost our expansive civ 45H, not 30H. It's still just one popwhip (but more than one chop).
I probably won't get another chance to post till tomorrow.
I'm warming to the idea of settling red dot asap. (Sometimes I'm slow.) It can work the unimproved cows from the start and generate a worker in 23T (38T settler is probably too slow to justify the loss of commerce that maintaining the city will incur.)
Then, I'm torn between building the settler or a granary first. The granary effectively makes each food worth 1.5F in the capital; the settler lets us start training a worker/settler while the capital is otherwise occupied. I guess the granary is worth about 2.5 or 3.5 food per turn (50% of +5F or +7F). Whereas a new city at red dot is worth 4 F+H per turn.
Note that we have to get to size 6 to whip the settler. We could work floodplains to expedite. That should bring our whip anger to zero again. The granary requires only a 1-pop whip though, so we could get the earlier return sooner.
I guess it'll be a judgment call for the turnset player. I lean toward the granary first because of the earlier return and the fact that the city will incur a research/commerce cost to us.
Also, the red dot city (Do we want to give it a clever name or use the next name on the Russian list?) can reduce our sentry needs by 1, meaning we'd need 5 (of which we have 2 now, not counting the capital's MP).
Here's a dotmap of where our sentries could go if we settle at red dot and get another capital border expansion:
The dots are city-covered, the think cyan lines originate from the sentry positions. Note that our green-dot city location is a sentry point too although we obviously don't want to move to that position without preceding escort.
I made a small mistake (at least one) in a previous post. The granary will cost our expansive civ 45H, not 30H. It's still just one popwhip (but more than one chop).
I probably won't get another chance to post till tomorrow.
Kodii
Ka ICE
Wow, not too many posts for me to read. I'm not complaining though
The problem with settling the red dot is that we cannot improve the cattle until we get a worker there and until we get AH. We want to get the blue dot settled before the AI gets Sailing, or before barbs take interest. Altogether, I think that it may be up to the turnset player.
As for the red dot, I think we can just leave it as St. Petersburg... unless you want to name it after someone, like St. Kodiisburg
The problem with settling the red dot is that we cannot improve the cattle until we get a worker there and until we get AH. We want to get the blue dot settled before the AI gets Sailing, or before barbs take interest. Altogether, I think that it may be up to the turnset player.
As for the red dot, I think we can just leave it as St. Petersburg... unless you want to name it after someone, like St. Kodiisburg
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Here are my plans for my turns, unless someone objects.
1) Move our fog busting warrior to the copper city. This would be the WORST spot for a barb city to appear in the wrong location.
2) Working finishes quarry, then roads to Moscow.
3) The tech path is wheel and pottery scheduled for 20 turns as of now. If tech completes faster, then start on animal husbandry for the cows and red dot.
4) Red dot starts a worker, and has a bonus start with the cattle giving plus 3 food. Animal husbandry will be done long before the worker.
5) Let turn 0 overflow go into Pyramids. Swap to warrior next turn for red dot, whip it, and again let the overflow go to pyramids. As soon as viable start a settler hoping for a quick whip. I really want city #2 going as that is our best source for a second worker, and more fog busters. By that time the stone will be connected.
6) I am happy to report I figured out a way to keep my turn mod active for SGs without having to switch for GOTM.
1) Move our fog busting warrior to the copper city. This would be the WORST spot for a barb city to appear in the wrong location.
2) Working finishes quarry, then roads to Moscow.
3) The tech path is wheel and pottery scheduled for 20 turns as of now. If tech completes faster, then start on animal husbandry for the cows and red dot.
4) Red dot starts a worker, and has a bonus start with the cattle giving plus 3 food. Animal husbandry will be done long before the worker.
5) Let turn 0 overflow go into Pyramids. Swap to warrior next turn for red dot, whip it, and again let the overflow go to pyramids. As soon as viable start a settler hoping for a quick whip. I really want city #2 going as that is our best source for a second worker, and more fog busters. By that time the stone will be connected.
6) I am happy to report I figured out a way to keep my turn mod active for SGs without having to switch for GOTM.
Kodii
Ka ICE
Just in case you misunderstood, the fogbusting warrior goes to the hill 2W, 1S of the copper city, not on the blue dot
These are my feelings (not backed up by analysis yet, just raw intuition).
We need to start climbing the productivity curve ASAP. We can't do everything we need to with Moscow in its current state. We need more stuff, so the question is the best way to get it. Moscow will soon have a lot more hammers than it does food, with the stone quarry and the hill mines. Still, with a granary, we can convert food into hammers at a better than 2:1 rate, and this will be particularly important for workers/settlers.
Moscow has seven forests. Is it worth considering chopping two of them now for a 2-pop settler? It's going to require a minimum of 35 worker turns to cut them all. If we get a second worker from red dot, it will probably have to join in.
How many turns will Moscow take to grow to size 6, with and without a granary? My sense is that without it will take too long and we'll waste turns without whipping, so I think the granary has to come first. We can put hammers into warriors while waiting. Always keep Moscow on a max-growth configuration, and consider cottaging that floodplains once we have a chance so we'll get a little extra commerce. If we whip a granary, our next whip has to be a settler.
I definitely think we need to found red dot ASAP. It's the only one of our cities that's going to give net productivity for a long time. Is worker-first the fastest way to get it growing? Probably, since it only has one tile worth working until Iron Working. Given that, we should probably keep it at size 1 for awhile: after teh worker, whip in a granary, then an obelisk (I think we have to Mysticism here--Writing is too far off), then a workboat, then have it build settlers and workers alternating with warriors to grow to size 2.
We really need hard numbers on some of these things. I'll try to provide them later tonight.
We need to start climbing the productivity curve ASAP. We can't do everything we need to with Moscow in its current state. We need more stuff, so the question is the best way to get it. Moscow will soon have a lot more hammers than it does food, with the stone quarry and the hill mines. Still, with a granary, we can convert food into hammers at a better than 2:1 rate, and this will be particularly important for workers/settlers.
Moscow has seven forests. Is it worth considering chopping two of them now for a 2-pop settler? It's going to require a minimum of 35 worker turns to cut them all. If we get a second worker from red dot, it will probably have to join in.
How many turns will Moscow take to grow to size 6, with and without a granary? My sense is that without it will take too long and we'll waste turns without whipping, so I think the granary has to come first. We can put hammers into warriors while waiting. Always keep Moscow on a max-growth configuration, and consider cottaging that floodplains once we have a chance so we'll get a little extra commerce. If we whip a granary, our next whip has to be a settler.
I definitely think we need to found red dot ASAP. It's the only one of our cities that's going to give net productivity for a long time. Is worker-first the fastest way to get it growing? Probably, since it only has one tile worth working until Iron Working. Given that, we should probably keep it at size 1 for awhile: after teh worker, whip in a granary, then an obelisk (I think we have to Mysticism here--Writing is too far off), then a workboat, then have it build settlers and workers alternating with warriors to grow to size 2.
We really need hard numbers on some of these things. I'll try to provide them later tonight.
If you only have time to read one thing, skip to the last bolded heading.
Current status:
Turn 46/660, year 2620 BC. 54 turns remaining before 1000 BC, which is my tentative "must have Pyramids by" date, though it's probably conservative.
Moscow has 16 turns of whip unhappiness and is size 2 with 9 food stored.
We have 9 turns before the quarry is finished.
Our next techs are probably The Wheel, Pottery, and Animal Husbandry, finished in 8, 20, and 35 turns currently. (It will probably be a little faster than that, because sometimes Moscow will be working the floodplains and getting +1 commerce.)
Some general state-less statistics:
The following calculations assume a steady state.
Without a granary, Moscow will take 11 turns (6 turns, 6 overflow + 5 turns, 7 overflow) to grow from size 2 to size 4, maxing growth, working fish, clams, floodplains, and stone quarry, in that order. To grow to size 6 (5 turns + 9 turns) takes 14 more turns, counting whip unhappiness so the fifth person is unproductive. This is obviously no good for anything.
With a granary, Moscow will take 5 turns (3 turns, 3 overflow + 2 turns, 1 overflow) to grow from 2 to 4, and 8 more turns (3 turns, 1 overflow + 5 turns, 3 overflow) to grow from 4 to 6.
[Note: math could be slightly faulty here because I don't know how the granary handles odd numbers of food. I assumed it adds food rounded down.]
Moscow's next builds:
I'm not sure that whipping the granary is the best use of our next whip. The problem is that we only get about two and two-thirds more whips before we'll need to have the Pyramids done. The last whip goes to the Pyramids, almost certainly. If we whip a granary and a settler, that's it.
If we max growth at Moscow and just let it grow now, in 16 turns when we can whip again, it will have just turned size 5 (4 turns to size 3 with overflow 1, 5 turns to size 4 with overflow 3, 6 turns to size 5 with overflow 3). We will still have to wait four turns for Pottery, but our whip unhappiness will be gone for those turns.
Let's look at an alternative plan: grow to size 4, then start a settler. We need 62 hammers in it before we can whip it at 4 pop. Moscow produces, at size 4, 13 food + hammers per turn (with the quarry up), so if we start the settler then, five turns in we'll be able to whip it, almost right after our past whip unhappiness has dissipated.
The problem, then, is building the granary, because we really want that building up ASAP since it makes everything so much more efficient. If whipped at the earliest opportunity, we'll go down to size 2 with 10 overflow stored, and grow back to 3 in 3 more turns. That should put us close to hand-building the granary. I'm not sure whether it would be more efficient in the long run to grow more slowly to finish the granary sooner, or grow faster--the general rule is the latter, though, and once we hit size 4, we could stagnate while working on mines.
The glimmerings of a plan:
Ok, so here's what I've gotten out of all this analysis.
We have two whips left in Moscow before the Pyramids. Because of the jungle, red dot will not be able to provide a settler before then, so if we want two settlers, I think they have to come from Moscow. What red dot can do for us is build itself up, provide another worker, and provide an extra warrior or two, and then provide a settler not long after we finish the Pyramids. (I think.)
Here's one possible outline:
Tech: Wheel in 8 turns, Pottery in 20 turns, Animal Husbandry in 33 turns, Mysticism in ?? turns
Moscow: build warrior(s) until one turn after size 4, starts settler, whip settler after whip anger dissipates at 16 turns, build Pyramids for four turns until Pottery comes in, start granary, eventually whip settler when anger dissipates again, then Pyramids all the way
Worker: finishes quarry in 9 turns, finish roading to stone in 7 turns, finish hill mine in 11 turns, go to red dot and pasturize cows right after Animal Husbandry comes in, head back to Moscow to mine/chop
Red dot: finish worker in 39 turns, start granary to grow?, whip granary?, send overflow to warrior?; or maybe put hammers into worker, wait until Pottery comes in, grow to size 2, whip granary, send overflow to worker?
Second worker: immediately had to mine-chop.
I have no idea if this is optimized. We should consider whether sending chops to other items (the granary, settlers) would be more efficient. I don't know if this will get us the Pyramids according to schedule. Are there other tweaks to optimize I'm not seeing? If so, we really need to find them and play them, because any improvement in these turns could be vital.
Lee, you could just play up 10 turns (which will take us around size 4 and the time we'd need to decide before growing and starting the settler) so we could talk about this.
Current status:
Turn 46/660, year 2620 BC. 54 turns remaining before 1000 BC, which is my tentative "must have Pyramids by" date, though it's probably conservative.
Moscow has 16 turns of whip unhappiness and is size 2 with 9 food stored.
We have 9 turns before the quarry is finished.
Our next techs are probably The Wheel, Pottery, and Animal Husbandry, finished in 8, 20, and 35 turns currently. (It will probably be a little faster than that, because sometimes Moscow will be working the floodplains and getting +1 commerce.)
Some general state-less statistics:
The following calculations assume a steady state.
Without a granary, Moscow will take 11 turns (6 turns, 6 overflow + 5 turns, 7 overflow) to grow from size 2 to size 4, maxing growth, working fish, clams, floodplains, and stone quarry, in that order. To grow to size 6 (5 turns + 9 turns) takes 14 more turns, counting whip unhappiness so the fifth person is unproductive. This is obviously no good for anything.
With a granary, Moscow will take 5 turns (3 turns, 3 overflow + 2 turns, 1 overflow) to grow from 2 to 4, and 8 more turns (3 turns, 1 overflow + 5 turns, 3 overflow) to grow from 4 to 6.
[Note: math could be slightly faulty here because I don't know how the granary handles odd numbers of food. I assumed it adds food rounded down.]
Moscow's next builds:
I'm not sure that whipping the granary is the best use of our next whip. The problem is that we only get about two and two-thirds more whips before we'll need to have the Pyramids done. The last whip goes to the Pyramids, almost certainly. If we whip a granary and a settler, that's it.
If we max growth at Moscow and just let it grow now, in 16 turns when we can whip again, it will have just turned size 5 (4 turns to size 3 with overflow 1, 5 turns to size 4 with overflow 3, 6 turns to size 5 with overflow 3). We will still have to wait four turns for Pottery, but our whip unhappiness will be gone for those turns.
Let's look at an alternative plan: grow to size 4, then start a settler. We need 62 hammers in it before we can whip it at 4 pop. Moscow produces, at size 4, 13 food + hammers per turn (with the quarry up), so if we start the settler then, five turns in we'll be able to whip it, almost right after our past whip unhappiness has dissipated.
The problem, then, is building the granary, because we really want that building up ASAP since it makes everything so much more efficient. If whipped at the earliest opportunity, we'll go down to size 2 with 10 overflow stored, and grow back to 3 in 3 more turns. That should put us close to hand-building the granary. I'm not sure whether it would be more efficient in the long run to grow more slowly to finish the granary sooner, or grow faster--the general rule is the latter, though, and once we hit size 4, we could stagnate while working on mines.
The glimmerings of a plan:
Ok, so here's what I've gotten out of all this analysis.
We have two whips left in Moscow before the Pyramids. Because of the jungle, red dot will not be able to provide a settler before then, so if we want two settlers, I think they have to come from Moscow. What red dot can do for us is build itself up, provide another worker, and provide an extra warrior or two, and then provide a settler not long after we finish the Pyramids. (I think.)
Here's one possible outline:
Tech: Wheel in 8 turns, Pottery in 20 turns, Animal Husbandry in 33 turns, Mysticism in ?? turns
Moscow: build warrior(s) until one turn after size 4, starts settler, whip settler after whip anger dissipates at 16 turns, build Pyramids for four turns until Pottery comes in, start granary, eventually whip settler when anger dissipates again, then Pyramids all the way
Worker: finishes quarry in 9 turns, finish roading to stone in 7 turns, finish hill mine in 11 turns, go to red dot and pasturize cows right after Animal Husbandry comes in, head back to Moscow to mine/chop
Red dot: finish worker in 39 turns, start granary to grow?, whip granary?, send overflow to warrior?; or maybe put hammers into worker, wait until Pottery comes in, grow to size 2, whip granary, send overflow to worker?
Second worker: immediately had to mine-chop.
I have no idea if this is optimized. We should consider whether sending chops to other items (the granary, settlers) would be more efficient. I don't know if this will get us the Pyramids according to schedule. Are there other tweaks to optimize I'm not seeing? If so, we really need to find them and play them, because any improvement in these turns could be vital.
Lee, you could just play up 10 turns (which will take us around size 4 and the time we'd need to decide before growing and starting the settler) so we could talk about this.
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I vote against this plains. TWO settlers pre-pyramids is just to greedy. IMHO we lose the pyramids with this plan.
Compromise
Emperor
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I think the settler he's referring to is our first one: the one for red dot. As I understand it, our present unit situation is: 1 warrior, 1 scout, 1 worker.
Also, I think it's turn 50 (in 4 turns) when barb warriors and archers appear. I think any animals still around hang out for a few turns, then disappear. I don't know when the warriors and archers start their convergence on cities though.
Moving the warrior to the plains hill overlooking the copper site sounds good to me. Note that we are defenseless until we get another warrior out.
I'm going to download the game and have a look, then post some more comments.
Compromise
Emperor
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Yes, I think this is good. With 16 overflow into our next warrior, it should finish in 6 turns, that should be fine to protect our assets. In fact, I think I'd recommend moving our MP warrior out now to get further afield before more barbs spawn. I'd probably put him on the jungle 1N of the cows. That reveals the same number of tiles as the hill the warrior is on right now, but guarantees interception of all incoming barbs on a +50% defense tile.
Yes. In 10 turns, you should be able to finish the quarry, and start the road.
I'm still working out the details here. I would like to have agriculture before pottery and AH just for the research savings on both. Since I'm now leaning toward finishing the settler before the granary, that allows us to postpone pottery. It *may* be the case that we can postpone AH too if we plan to use our worker only to chop and build mines around the capital until the pyramids are in. We could discuss this, since it will come up toward the end of your turn.
We don't have the settler for red dot yet. As a side note, the worker trained here will take 23 turns to complete. (City provides 2F1H, cow surplus is 1F, so total productivity of 4FH for the worker. 90H/4H=22.5 turns.)
I disagree here. I think we should let the overflow go into a warrior and finish that warrior while we recover from whip unhappiness. Another whipping will add another 30T of unhappiness. I don't think it's worth it right now. Also, before stone is hooked up, our hammers are half-value on the pyramids. I'm still thinking about this, but I even think the build after the warrior should be another warrior while we build pop up to 6 so we can whip the settler.
6) I am happy to report I figured out a way to keep my turn mod active for SGs without having to switch for GOTM.
This is good news. Your experience is quite helpful here!
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Here are my plans V2 for my turns, unless someone objects.
1) Move our fog busting warrior to the copper city fog busting hill. This would be the WORST spot for a barb city to appear in the wrong location.
2) Working finishes quarry, then roads to Moscow.
3) The tech path is wheel and then unknown.
We need to debate how soon we want the granary.
I am now leaning toward the agriculture, animal husbandry and potter path suggested by Compromise. If we don't want the granary right away, then pottery is no rush. Our workers will be tied up chopping for the Pyramids for awhile.
I would like to play more then just enough turns to complete the wheel. Round one and two already took awhile, and round two was short.
4) Let turn 0 overflow go into another warrior. As soon as viable start a settler hoping for a quick whip. I really want city #2 going as that is our best source for a second worker, and more fog busters. By that time the stone will be connected.
5) I am happy to report I figured out a way to keep my turn mod active for SGs without having to switch for GOTM.
I removed red dot reference as that is past my turn set.
1) Move our fog busting warrior to the copper city fog busting hill. This would be the WORST spot for a barb city to appear in the wrong location.
2) Working finishes quarry, then roads to Moscow.
3) The tech path is wheel and then unknown.
We need to debate how soon we want the granary.
I am now leaning toward the agriculture, animal husbandry and potter path suggested by Compromise. If we don't want the granary right away, then pottery is no rush. Our workers will be tied up chopping for the Pyramids for awhile.
I would like to play more then just enough turns to complete the wheel. Round one and two already took awhile, and round two was short.
4) Let turn 0 overflow go into another warrior. As soon as viable start a settler hoping for a quick whip. I really want city #2 going as that is our best source for a second worker, and more fog busters. By that time the stone will be connected.
5) I am happy to report I figured out a way to keep my turn mod active for SGs without having to switch for GOTM.
I removed red dot reference as that is past my turn set.
Compromise
Emperor
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Looks like you're actively reading here, so let me post this little workup I did:
numbers are the state of the foodbar and build in turn, not after turn.
2620: Move MP warrior out to jungle N of cows (We won't experience significant no-protection anger before we can train a replacement.) Move sentry warrior to plains hill NW of copper hill (not copper city site).
Moscow: Work fish, clams. Hammer overflow switched from pyramids to warrior.
9/36F, 17/22H (Warrior)
+7F, +1H
2590:
Moscow: Work fish, clams. Build warrior (one whip-anger dissipates, happy-cap now 4.)
16/36F, 18/22H (Warrior)
+7F, +1H
2560:
Moscow: Work fish, clams. Build warrior
23/36F, 19/22H (Warrior)
+7F, +1H
2530:
Moscow: Work fish, clams. Build warrior
30/36F, 20/22H (Warrior)
+7F, +1H
2500:
Moscow: Grows to size 3. Work fish, clams, floodplains. Build warrior
1/39F, 21/22H (Warrior)
+8F, +1H
2470:
Moscow: Warrior completes. Use warrior for MP. Build another warrior. Work fish, clams, floodplains.
9/39F, 0/22H (Warrior)
+8F, +1H
2440:
Moscow: Work fish, clams, floodplains. Build warrior
17/39F, 1/22H (Warrior)
+8F, +1H
2410:
Moscow: Work fish, clams, floodplains. Build warrior
25/39F, 2/22H (Warrior)
+8F, +1H
2380: The Wheel is researched. Start (Pottery/AH/Agriculture?)
Moscow: Work fish, clams, floodplains. Build warrior
33/39F, 3/22H (Warrior)
+8F, +1H
2350: Stone quarry complete and grow to size 4. Now, work quarry in preference to floodplains. Because we just grew, we can keep working the floodplains. Before a granary, total F+H is the rough measure of the value of a tile. This is our happy cap for a while. Worker goes to road plains hill, then mine it.
Moscow: Work fish, clams, quarry, floodplains. Build warrior
2/42F, 4/22H (Warrior)
+7F, +5H
2320:
Moscow: Work fish, clams, quarry, floodplains. Build warrior
9/42F, 9/22H (Warrior)
+7F, +5H
Now if that isn't anal retentive, I don't know what is! (And no, I don't always do this.) I started by just trying to see whether or not we should do agriculture first or not and got sidetracked by simulating LK's full turnset.
I agree with your V2 turnset plans. I guess I'd recommend stopping after turn 8 when we get fishing so we can discuss the next tech. (Gut feeling now is agriculture. Discount on both pottery and AH is appealing especially if the need for both is delayed because the worker is busy at Moscow.
What do you think of moving the MP warrior out for fogbusting N of the cows? We won't incur any happy penalty for doing so and it gives us a 6-turn headstart in getting into position.
I agree that we need that next settler out asap. I'm trying to determine if the fastest way to do that is to work on it directly at size 4 and whip it when we can, or whether it's quicker to work on warriors/pyramids until size 6, then whip it.
numbers are the state of the foodbar and build in turn, not after turn.
2620: Move MP warrior out to jungle N of cows (We won't experience significant no-protection anger before we can train a replacement.) Move sentry warrior to plains hill NW of copper hill (not copper city site).
Moscow: Work fish, clams. Hammer overflow switched from pyramids to warrior.
9/36F, 17/22H (Warrior)
+7F, +1H
2590:
Moscow: Work fish, clams. Build warrior (one whip-anger dissipates, happy-cap now 4.)
16/36F, 18/22H (Warrior)
+7F, +1H
2560:
Moscow: Work fish, clams. Build warrior
23/36F, 19/22H (Warrior)
+7F, +1H
2530:
Moscow: Work fish, clams. Build warrior
30/36F, 20/22H (Warrior)
+7F, +1H
2500:
Moscow: Grows to size 3. Work fish, clams, floodplains. Build warrior
1/39F, 21/22H (Warrior)
+8F, +1H
2470:
Moscow: Warrior completes. Use warrior for MP. Build another warrior. Work fish, clams, floodplains.
9/39F, 0/22H (Warrior)
+8F, +1H
2440:
Moscow: Work fish, clams, floodplains. Build warrior
17/39F, 1/22H (Warrior)
+8F, +1H
2410:
Moscow: Work fish, clams, floodplains. Build warrior
25/39F, 2/22H (Warrior)
+8F, +1H
2380: The Wheel is researched. Start (Pottery/AH/Agriculture?)
Moscow: Work fish, clams, floodplains. Build warrior
33/39F, 3/22H (Warrior)
+8F, +1H
2350: Stone quarry complete and grow to size 4. Now, work quarry in preference to floodplains. Because we just grew, we can keep working the floodplains. Before a granary, total F+H is the rough measure of the value of a tile. This is our happy cap for a while. Worker goes to road plains hill, then mine it.
Moscow: Work fish, clams, quarry, floodplains. Build warrior
2/42F, 4/22H (Warrior)
+7F, +5H
2320:
Moscow: Work fish, clams, quarry, floodplains. Build warrior
9/42F, 9/22H (Warrior)
+7F, +5H
Now if that isn't anal retentive, I don't know what is! (And no, I don't always do this.) I started by just trying to see whether or not we should do agriculture first or not and got sidetracked by simulating LK's full turnset.
I agree with your V2 turnset plans. I guess I'd recommend stopping after turn 8 when we get fishing so we can discuss the next tech. (Gut feeling now is agriculture. Discount on both pottery and AH is appealing especially if the need for both is delayed because the worker is busy at Moscow.
What do you think of moving the MP warrior out for fogbusting N of the cows? We won't incur any happy penalty for doing so and it gives us a 6-turn headstart in getting into position.
I agree that we need that next settler out asap. I'm trying to determine if the fastest way to do that is to work on it directly at size 4 and whip it when we can, or whether it's quicker to work on warriors/pyramids until size 6, then whip it.
I think we're all agreed on this. My anecdotal, off-the-cuff observation is that I think barb cities start appearing around 2000 BC, so as long as you head there right away, we should be good.
Yup.
I don't think we have time for Agriculture. That's another 11 turns before we can pasturize the cows, cottage the floodplains, or build granaries, and it will only shave about two turns off each of Pottery and Animal Husbandry. I don't see how we can do everything we need to do without increasing our pre-Pyramids productivity, and Agriculture doesn't help us with that. Note also that until we have Mysticism and obelisks, red dot is stuck with one with tile that isn't total junk; we need Writing not long after the Pyramids so we can build libraries for scientists to get a science rate; and we need Iron Working and Sailing, too. Only after Iron Working does the fact that we have Agriculture become relevant, and by then hopefully we'll have met more AIs and the price will have fallen.
This would be starting the settler one turn after Moscow hits size 4, then whipping once the anger dissipates? I think that's the fastest and most efficient way to do it.
Compromise
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If we get that next tech (after Wheel) figured out, I'm in favor of LK running more turns than just getting to the Wheel or just 10 turns. It's still early with not much happening.
LK, Is it possible for you to play till we get the Wheel. Then post and discuss. Then play some more turns?
LK, Is it possible for you to play till we get the Wheel. Then post and discuss. Then play some more turns?
Compromise
Emperor
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Note that unlike what I wrote in my turnset analysis, we'll probably want to start the pyramids (pre-stone) instead of the warrior if we start building the settler as soon as we get to size 4. (But it's only 4H.)
Another micro: it's slightly better to move to the plains hill and start roading that before roading the quarry. A road on the hill will save a turn for northbound units while the isolated road on the quarry (which can be started without turn-penalty after the hill is roaded) is useless until it connects to another road.
@Iainuki: good comments. Working the fish, clams and floodplain, agriculture is a 10T tech that will save us maybe 4T later. We probably can't afford to whip the granary if we're planning to whip the settler. If we whip the settler from Size 6 instead of building from size 4, then we don't need a granary so quickly (because we can work tiles rather than growing after the whip). If we can get agri(10T), pottery(12T-2*), then AH(15T-2*) before we need either a granary of a pasture, then agriculture makes sense. (2* is the estimated 2T savings for getting agri first).
Question: Do we want the hammers from the mining of the plains hill to go to the pyramids or a settler? Once stone is connected, the pyramids simply cost 338H and a hammer is a hammer. The connection of stone just determines when it's efficient to start the pyramids.
Still thinking past the discovery of the wheel....
Another micro: it's slightly better to move to the plains hill and start roading that before roading the quarry. A road on the hill will save a turn for northbound units while the isolated road on the quarry (which can be started without turn-penalty after the hill is roaded) is useless until it connects to another road.
@Iainuki: good comments. Working the fish, clams and floodplain, agriculture is a 10T tech that will save us maybe 4T later. We probably can't afford to whip the granary if we're planning to whip the settler. If we whip the settler from Size 6 instead of building from size 4, then we don't need a granary so quickly (because we can work tiles rather than growing after the whip). If we can get agri(10T), pottery(12T-2*), then AH(15T-2*) before we need either a granary of a pasture, then agriculture makes sense. (2* is the estimated 2T savings for getting agri first).
Question: Do we want the hammers from the mining of the plains hill to go to the pyramids or a settler? Once stone is connected, the pyramids simply cost 338H and a hammer is a hammer. The connection of stone just determines when it's efficient to start the pyramids.
Still thinking past the discovery of the wheel....
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