SGOTM 04 - Geezers

[Htadus]

Jenarie, I see no reason for you to be unhappy with the turn set. You had to deal with a problem that any one could have messed up and you did not. With all the conflicting goals that were discussed, I think you did an excellent job. Only thing I wish happened differently is that we started the Pyramids after the Axe. I probably am the only one though, so no big deal . BTW how many defenders were in the barb city?

Now, I think we should let Nidaros use the pigs to get the worker done soon. And let it work it untill it grow to its happiness max while building the Mids. I think we need to get math learned so we can get few of those forests chopped for 45 hammers each. May be the new worker can prechop a few of them to 1 turn after the corn farm is done.

Once El Dorado-sala grow, we should build a settler there and use the forest chop to speed up the process. BTW if anyone feel like changing the name of the city to just EL Dorado, please feel free. I do silly things when I am tired.

I vote to keep that chariot build going in El Do because the axes are right around the corner and we get extra movement. We should build units there until it grows. Finally, we need to build a road to Uppsala.

Once we have 3 workers, we should have enough for a while. Since each city will grow in about 16-18 turns, we have enough worker turns to improve a tile for new pop.

Is it time to build cottages?

 

[Htadus]

- Long internal debate then whip monument in El Dorado. I think this was too early - please explain how to know when to whip in more detail to me before future turns. My reasoning was that Thrallia said we needed border pop ASAP and that it should regrow before second mine was ready to work anyway.
........
..I'm not very happy with this set of turns although I think I would have handled it as planned if not for that barb attack that hit before I could get ready for it. We were ready for one barb but not two at the same time and it really hurt.

Whipping: The best whipping plan is to wait just before the city grow (1 or 2 turns with adaquate amount of food), whip with one pop (hopefully) and mm the city to grow next turn. The effect of the whip is limited to unhappiness but production, income and growth remain the same. Of course most of the time this is not possible, especially if there are bunch of barbs are visiting your gold mines. One thing to watch is if the city is about to go into unhappiness, make sure the whipping will use 2 pop or you will end up with a smoking city.

As for planning: It only work well if Murphy does not show up with his Law. And he does it way too often.

 

[Jenarie]

BTW how many defenders were in the barb city?

Eeek! I didn't think to write that down but if I remember correctly it was three warriors. It was either two or three warriors but I definitely remember it being warriors and thinking it should be easy to take with axes.

Finally, we need to build a road to Uppsala.

This is almost done. Since I detoured to hook up the horses I think there is only one tile missing from that road. I was thinking the worker hooking up the corn could probably head there to finish it after corn up but of course that is changable.


Thank you for explaining the whipping in more detail - is very obvious now. And now I understand you DID say it before but I was reading it wrong. I thought when I read it before you meant to whip 1-2 turns before each thing was done production to get the maximum overflow for the next thing. I misread and was basing the 1-2 turns on the wrong thing. I've never done it this way before - in the past I've usually tried to let cities grow to max before starting whipping and then whip 2-3 pop at a time to keep just under/at the happiness limit. I think your way gets more hammers out over time though so better I just need to practice it.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

@Jenarie - First off congrats on mostly finishing your first turnset in a SGOTM. The 'mostly' is because you finished one turn short. Turn 80 was the last turn of my set so turn 100 should be the last turn of your set. It also means that we end on a nice round date.

Looks like you got the interesting round. Some of your decisions were, perhaps, a bit but that's how you learn, right?

EDIT: I've now spotted this post which explains the odd ending date.

File uploading at turn 19. Had to chose a build and didn't know what to pick so figured would turn it over one early and make Mark chose.

 

[Jenarie]

Could you please explain to me which moves were wrong? The reason I did the turnset so over-detailed is because I was hoping someone would point out what wasn't right so I wouldn't repeat it again.

This game is VERY different then anything I've played. Almost every decision prior to my turn was different then I have made in the past (both builds and tech) so I found myself starting in a position I've never been in before and had to totally make it up as I went along with no prior experience. I ALWAYS build archers so I've never had a city defended by warriors before and wasn't sure what to do with it when we got attacked although I'm not sure if you mean the barb craziness or some of the builds or what.

If it was really weedy I'd know what I did wrong but in this case I have no clue so I need to be pounded over the head with it. The only thing I know for sure that I messed up was whipping at the wrong times which I understand now.

 

[markh]

Nicely done, Jenarie.

You could not have done anything about the barbs. They usually go for improvements of bonus tiles before attacking a city. Just if you put a unit on the improved tile they will go straight for a city, so your decision was right. It is not worth risking a city just to save a gold mine.

If I have copper I rarely build archers, too. Axes are more expensive, but with the promotions they get killing barbs they will be nice maces once you get to civil service. Furthermore I usually attack the barbs before they can reach my territory, so I do not really need defensive units. I research archery only if I want horse archers that early. Otherwise I just research it at a later stage when it takes just a few turns.

I got it and will have a look tonight.

Roster :

Thrallia
Htadus
Sam
Jenarie - just played
Mark - UP
harbourboy - on deck

 

[Htadus]

Thank you for explaining the whipping in more detail - is very obvious now. And now I understand you DID say it before but I was reading it wrong. I thought when I read it before you meant to whip 1-2 turns before each thing was done production to get the maximum overflow for the next thing. I misread and was basing the 1-2 turns on the wrong thing. I've never done it this way before - in the past I've usually tried to let cities grow to max before starting whipping and then whip 2-3 pop at a time to keep just under/at the happiness limit. I think your way gets more hammers out over time though so better I just need to practice it.

You did NOT read me wrong. Best way to whip would be to combine both of these as was the case in one of the cities. The build was due in 7 or 8 turns and growth in 8 or 9 turns. In this case, on the turn before the build is done whip the build, mm the city to grow (assume there are bonus food available). On the next turn you have a finish product, overflow of hammers and the same number of pop as before.

This does not work well if all the city was about to become unhappy. Then the whip has to be for 2 population. The city will grow and will be at happy limit. Let th city manager stop the city from growing untill the crualty is forgotton. Happy whipping .

 

[Harbourboy]

Nice work, I reckon, Jenarie.

I think the problem that I will have is being over-cautious. When you play by yourself, you have nothing to lose in being a bit reckless, because if the game turns to custard, then who cares, you can just start again.

But here, I would be like Jenarie and be extra careful to make sure that I was doubly protected against a barbarian who could pretty much ruin the whole game for everyone. But that extra caution could cost us in the long run, so it should be interesting.

I agree with the logic about archery. I have never thought about it that way, but it does make sense to not de-prioritise it at this point.

 

[Harbourboy]

Next question: who or what is Gyathaar and what role did he or she play in the creation of this game. People seem to have been alternately cursing or praising this name as this game has gone on.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Next question: who or what is Gyathaar and what role did he or she play in the creation of this game.

Gyathaar designs the game maps and I believe also comes up with (modifies)the scenario to go with it, or maybe the other way round .

People seem to have been alternately cursing or praising this name as this game has gone on.

Really? I thought we had been quite restrained.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Looks like you got the interesting round. Some of your decisions were, perhaps, a bit but that's how you learn, right?

Could you please explain to me which moves were wrong? The reason I did the turnset so over-detailed is because I was hoping someone would point out what wasn't right so I wouldn't repeat it again.

EDIT: My emphasis in your quote.

Ok, I've quoted my original message to make it clear that I did not say your moves were wrong.

Whipping the monument that early has already been covered. I think the other main issue was military.

Before your game I posted:

Regarding Nidaros builds I suggest changing the granary to an axe. There's a 9 overflow atm and the axe will take 5 turns.

Following your query about researching Archery I also posted:

If you get the extra axe from Nidaros as I suggested and possibly part research another axe at Uppsala so that we can rush it if needed then we should be ok.

You, hopefully, saw these. You chose not to follow my suggestions. This is not wrong but merely a difference in how you perceived priorities. As it happens I was right and you would have had an axe either finished, or just about finished, about the time you were attacked. However I might have been too pessimistic in which case your original decision to not follow my suggestion would have been correct.

It was a good idea to prioritise units but it would have been better a couple turns sooner.

I think the above shows the benefit of hindsight. It comes down to assessing the merits or otherwise of builds against the perceived risk and taking appropriate action.

In the end the important point is that you didn't lose any cities and you now have a bit more experience of the possible consequences if things go belly up.

 

[Harbourboy]

I wonder if we will have any heated arguments (of the 'you did WHAT?') variety during the course of this game.

In the meantime I will carry on waiting for stunning revelations from markh.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

I wonder if we will have any heated arguments (of the 'you did WHAT?') variety during the course of this game.

Hopefully not. This team tends to have lots of discussions about what should happen during a turnset. S**t happens sometimes but it should be rare that any particular action is a game killer.

 

[markh]

I wonder if we will have any heated arguments (of the 'you did WHAT?') variety during the course of this game.

I think we always had lively discussions and we were not of the same opinions in many things, but we always did this in a civilized way. It is in the nature of a team of that many players that we cannot be all of the same opinion. Nevertheless I think it is important to follow team decisions even if you voted against that decision and it is your turn.

In the meantime I will carry on waiting for stunning revelations from markh.

Don't expect to get any "stunning" things from me.

Will have a look at the save now and post my thoughts.

 

[markh]

My thoughts for my set :

Nidaros : gets the pigs to speed up the worker then begin The Pyramids.

El Do : change build to a rax. This will be our military provider and I think this is the best time to build it. It takes 5 turns IIRC.

Upps : connect to empire and continues on granary, then maybe start on a lib, not sure, yet.

Techwise : I would take IW next as alpha is still 30+ turns. I usually research it when the research time drops below 25 turns and get it first most of the time.

Any opinions ?

 

[Harbourboy]

What is a 'rax'?

 

[markh]

What is a 'rax'?

Barracks

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Any opinions ?

Sounds fine to me.

 

[Jenarie]

@Sam, thanks for explaining. I see what you mean now although I don't think following your suggestions would have helped in this case as the barbs started coming on turn 2 and were done by turn 5. You were right we needed more military but to help out in that particular attack it would have had to have been produced or at least started during your turns. I think I'd have moved the fortified axe west when I first saw the barbarians but I assume it was there as settler escort so that's what I used it for which may have been the mistake I made... I could have possibly settled city a few turns later and not lost the mine if I started moving that axe on turn 0 although even then it might not have made it in time since there were no roads.

Mark, I totally agree re barracks. A barracks is what I wanted to build there but no one had mentioned it so I didn't. I hate producing units without one and I think since we now have at least an axe garrison in each city we should be able to afford the time to get one built before churning more units out.

I also have no problem with iron working next. It would be nice to know if we have iron and where it is. And Khan isn't as far south as we thought so if it is to the south of us we'd need to settle it before he does.

Edit: Uppsala is connected already (via coast) if you are talking trade route. It is one tile short of being road connected though.

 

[Htadus]

My thoughts for my set :

Nidaros : gets the pigs to speed up the worker then begin The Pyramids.

El Do : change build to a rax. This will be our military provider and I think this is the best time to build it. It takes 5 turns IIRC.

Upps : connect to empire and continues on granary, then maybe start on a lib, not sure, yet.

Techwise : I would take IW next as alpha is still 30+ turns. I usually research it when the research time drops below 25 turns and get it first most of the time.

Any opinions ?

Good call on the Rax in Eldo. Completely over looked. I have made my position clear on IW. Yes and soon please .

Lib is not a bad idea for Upps since it will allow it to grow and there are a few good cottage sites there. Espeacially the silk/suger site. Of couse it can also be a rax site since we do need more units for Kahns pleasure. My pref is for Lib to maintain fast science with them cottages and gems.